Rules for police to enter your home?

Archived discussion from Toril-2.
Ghimok
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Rules for police to enter your home?

Postby Ghimok » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:23 pm

Does anyone have a good grasp on what specifically law enforcement needs to do to enter your home lawfully? Last night at around 4:00 AM five officers who were investigating an assault at a party down the street from my place entered the back door of my house and proceeded to walk through my house, climb my stairs, enter my room and wake me up and start questioning me.

I'm pretty sure I locked all the doors when I went to bed at midnight, likely my roomate accidentally left it unlocked when he went out for a smoke. Neither myself nor anyone in the house at the time gave any verbal consent for the police to enter the house. The police had no warrant to serve. The police say they knocked and received no answer, which might be true as I'm a fairly heavy sleeper. They didn't use the doorbell as I generally hear that. My roomate was home but he didn't answer the door because of how late it was.

Does this basically amount to breaking and entering, or are police allowed to just walk into your house like this?

By the way I had nothing to do with the assault, nor did anyone in my house.

Any ideas anyone? This seems pretty out of line and unwarranted to me.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:42 pm

Just ..

WOW

hope you got their names at badge numbers .. that seems INSANE to me
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:45 pm

That does seem a bit fucked up.

Call a news agency, get some airplay out of it.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:47 pm

No. The only ways they can enter without your permission are:

1) With a warrant
2) They have clear cause

The first is simple. The second basically means if they are chasing someone who enters your house, or can see you doing something illegal through a window or something. Even the latter case is a little iffy, since the cop would need to prove he had just cause if you protested in court.

Corth will probably have better answers than us though...
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Postby Corth » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:27 pm

Been a long time since I took criminal procedure, and even then it wasn't my forte, but I think Sarvis is more or less correct. Either they must have a warrant, or they can see a crime being committed in the house (through a window maybe?), or an emergency situation where getting a warrant is not practical. You may want to contact a local lawyer to discuss whether it makes sense to sue your municipality for this transgression.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Birile » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:34 pm

Yeah... get a lawyer quickly and let him handle holding the police department accountable (ie. he's trained in how to give them a verbal lashing without making a misstep that could land you in trouble) and let him also advise you on what to do next (if anything).

And get the airtime if and when the lawsuit is filed. News agencies eat that stuff up--at least they do here in NY. But again, let your lawyer do the talking.
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Postby Ghimok » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:23 pm

Um, so:

Step 1. Hire a lawyer.
Step 2. ????
Step 3. Negative profit of having to pay a lawyer $$$/hour. yay!

Seems like a great system.

When the police came into the house everyone was in bed either sleeping or ignoring them, so I doubt they saw anything illegal through the windows. I keep the shades/blindes closed anyways.
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Postby Birile » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:49 pm

It shouldn't be too difficult to find a lawyer to offer you a free consultation. Any lawyer worth their salt will be straight-forward about whether you have a case or not--they won't (contrary to popular belief) string you along to pad their wallets.
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Postby Corth » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:23 pm

Unless there are any criminal ramifications from this search, you do not NEED a lawyer. On the other hand, if on the way to your bedroom they managed to wander into your climate controlled industrial marijuana growing suite, then you probably NEED one.

You may very well WANT one though to sue the bejesus out of the police department. If thats the case, chances are they will represent you for a percentage of the money you ultimately get. So:

1. Have your constitutional rights pissed on by the police.
2. Find the best ambulance chaser available who will work on contingency.
3. Profit!

But honestly, I don't know if this type of case has any value.. so best to talk to someone with expertise.

Your in Indiana right? If so.. I am dealing with an attorney located in South Bend who seems more or less conscientious. If you want, I can ask if he knows anyone who would be right for this type of case.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ghimok » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:19 pm

I'm in MN. They didn't manage to find my small-medium-business-sized climate controlled grow room (kidding), but I did notice there was a roach laying on the coffee table when the cops were in the living room. That's not much of an offense though and they never said a word about it. Wasn't my joint, but all the same it was in my house (while I was sound asleep mind you). I also have a hookah in my bedroom on a shelf, but it's decorational only (gift from sister when she was in iraq) and it's 100% clean, never used. They made no mention of this either.

I did server my roomate with a Notice to Vacate this afternoon, so I won't have to worry about him or any of his friends doing anything stupid like this again though. I found out that the person involved in the assault was someone that had come home after the bar with my roomate to drink more. He wasn't there anymore when the cops entered the house though.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:24 pm

Still, unless they actually saw the person in your house they had no right to enter without permission.

As much as I hate to say it, it was a good idea to kick out the roomate... the drug laws are draconian enough that you'd be in as much trouble as him if he gets caught in your house with drugs. (Unless the cops enter illegally and find it, that is.)
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Postby Gormal » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:58 pm

I recently had an ex-sheriff in CA tell me that at least here, the police cannot enter your home even for things like noise complaints and phoned in reports of underage drinking. He said that even if you open the door, as long as no part of your body crosses the threshold of the doorway, they can't do anything. Not that I'm saying a judge would side with you over that little detail, but even with a wide-open door I don't see how its legal for them to enter your private residence at all.
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Postby Gurns » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:59 pm

Sarvis wrote:Still, unless they actually saw the person in your house they had no right to enter without permission.

Not true, there are several exceptions. This looks to be a pertinent article, and possibly the most relevent cases start here on page 4, under "Warrantless Entries When Officers Not in Hot Pursuit":
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 02922/pg_4

Yes, you would have to consult a lawyer. Yes, I think your only recourse would be to sue the Police Department, the City, and the individual cops.

I'm going to guess that the incident got written up as a felony. I'm going to guess that someone saw the guy go into your house, or recognized your roommate and knew where he lived. Does that, then, qualify as justifiable entry as per the cases discussed in the article? Talk to a lawyer.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:26 pm

The article is mostly saying that the police need to be in hot pursuit for a serious crime or contingent emergency is necessary, neither of which applies here. The police were not in hot pursuit, and a fistfight (I'm assuming, "assault" is a bit vague) is not a serious enough threat for that. The example in the article is armed robbery. Further, seeing people leave together does not mean they ended up at the same destination so the justification falls apart there to when compared to the armed taxi robbery case.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:25 pm

Sarvis wrote:As much as I hate to say it, it was a good idea to kick out the roomate... the drug laws are draconian enough that you'd be in as much trouble as him if he gets caught in your house with drugs. (Unless the cops enter illegally and find it, that is.)


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say either they didn't see it, or they knew they weren't there legally and just didn't mention it so they wouldn't get busted for being in somebody's house illegally knowing you would fight the charges in court.
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Postby Lathander » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:52 pm

Another idea might be to call Internal Affairs or whatever compliance department those cops have. Did you get business cards from them or anything else to show who it was?
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Postby Ghimok » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:16 am

From what I understand no charges were even pressed. By "assault" I meant fist-fight. Actually from what the roomate said it wasn't even much of a fist fight, more of a shoving match. The neighbor kids did apparently know what the guy involved had been at my house or saw him go back to my house after the altercation, but the cops were by no means in "hot pursuit" as they showed up almost an hour after the fight happened.

I'm not sure there is an internal affairs department in my town. The town is only about 15,000 people. I didn't bother getting business cards from the police as I know 3 of the five cops who were in my house by name already, and I was really f-ing tired and didn't think of it. When you add the other 5 cops who were outside talking to the neighbors, I'm pretty sure that was a good 2/3 of our police force. Not sure what all of them were doing on duty at 4am, but whatever.

I've got a few buddies that are in law enforcement (not in my town) that I'm thinking about emailing to see what they would have done in that situation. By buddies, I mean people I was great friends with in high school way back when and that I still hang out with from time to time.
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Postby Gurns » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:58 am

Sarvis wrote:The article is mostly saying...

Right. However, my point was that there are exceptions to "clear cause" and to "hot pursuit", beyond what is obvious. That is, while we would like to believe the Fourth Amendment protects us, the current interpretation provided by the courts doesn't protect us as much as we might think.

In particular, I gather from that one article (Note: see a lawyer for a real legal opinion) that the current interpretation seems to stress only that the police act "reasonably". Thus, while I would see what happened as a clear violation of Ghimok's rights, I think the current interpretations put it into a gray area.

How could it be legal? Suppose someone said something to the cops that sounded like there might have been a weapon shown. Or even a verbal threat of later weapon use. If so, then my reading of that article suggests that the cops, acting "reasonably", may well be able to enter the house where they thought the guy was, hours later, without a warrant. The fact that no one was charged only means that the cops later discovered there was no weapon, and the whole thing was much ado about not much. But that doesn't mean they "acted improperly" to search the house, because they were acting "reasonably", based on the information they had.

Given the number of cops involved, I'm thinking it could have been something like that. You don't get 5 cops inside and 5 more outside because of reports of a shoving match.

Me, I think they screwed up. Me, I think what they did should be grossly illegal. But given the current attitude of "give the police the tools they need to do the job" and "you can't make an omelet with smashing a few civil rights", it is not clear to me that a court would agree.

That's why any pursuit of this would require a good lawyer.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:13 pm

From my own experience, with some police brutality charges I was trying to pursue, lawyers won't touch a case against a police department unless it extremely well documented (by someone other than the police department apparently).

Just to amuse you all. I will tell the story. I was 18 at the time. I was drunk and lipping off to a cop while being arrested for DUI. I did not at any time resist arrest, just pissed him off bigtime. I had my face slammed into the hood of a cop car (while handcuffed) with all of the officer's body weight put into it. It split my chin pretty good and soaked the front of my shirt with blood. Wasn't serious enough to require stitches, but I was busted up pretty good. When I was taken to jail for the drunk driving offense, a lady officer asked what happened and even snapped a couple pictures after I told her. I never saw those pictures. I tried to obtain those pictures a week later to use to make a case, but they claimed they had never taken any such pictures.

Anyways, I called every lawyer in the book on that one. Nobody would touch it.
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:52 am

8)

I thought they were like vampires and you had to invite them into your home before they could enter.
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Re: Rules for police to enter your home?

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:18 am

Ghimok wrote:Does anyone have a good grasp on what specifically law enforcement needs to do to enter your home lawfully? Last night at around 4:00 AM five officers who were investigating an assault at a party down the street from my place entered the back door of my house and proceeded to walk through my house, climb my stairs, enter my room and wake me up and start questioning me.

I'm pretty sure I locked all the doors when I went to bed at midnight, likely my roomate accidentally left it unlocked when he went out for a smoke. Neither myself nor anyone in the house at the time gave any verbal consent for the police to enter the house. The police had no warrant to serve. The police say they knocked and received no answer, which might be true as I'm a fairly heavy sleeper. They didn't use the doorbell as I generally hear that. My roomate was home but he didn't answer the door because of how late it was.

Does this basically amount to breaking and entering, or are police allowed to just walk into your house like this?

By the way I had nothing to do with the assault, nor did anyone in my house.

Any ideas anyone? This seems pretty out of line and unwarranted to me.



Without a warrant, or a damned, damned good reason to infringe upon your constitutional rights?

No.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:14 pm

So, what happened with this anyway Jim?
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Postby Ghimok » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:31 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:So, what happened with this anyway Jim?


Well, none of the lawyers in this area would touch it because nobody was actually charged with any crimes, so it ends up being a lawsuit against the City and the PD. None of the lawyers will put their reputation on the line against the PD or City for something like this.

So I'm in the process of drafting a strongly worded letter of complaint. I'll be sending it to the chief of police, mayor, city attourney, county attourney, State Attourney General.

Since this has took place I have talked to several police officers and sheriff deputies from other communities. They all agree that the officers who entered my home were completely out of line and that they should be reprimanded by the city for their actions.

In the two weeks since I was woken up at 4am by said police officers I've only been able to manage 2 or 3 hours of sleep a night. I've become paranoid in my own house. I get up in the middle of the night to make sure the doors are locked and now wake up to the smallest sound (I was a VERY heavy sleeper before due to living a half-block from the railway). To me, what the police did was no better than what a burglar or home invader does. I'd actually have preferred to have been woken up by a burglar as I would have shot them.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:14 pm

Ghimok wrote:
Arilin Nydelahar wrote:So, what happened with this anyway Jim?


Well, none of the lawyers in this area would touch it because nobody was actually charged with any crimes, so it ends up being a lawsuit against the City and the PD. None of the lawyers will put their reputation on the line against the PD or City for something like this.

So I'm in the process of drafting a strongly worded letter of complaint. I'll be sending it to the chief of police, mayor, city attourney, county attourney, State Attourney General.

Since this has took place I have talked to several police officers and sheriff deputies from other communities. They all agree that the officers who entered my home were completely out of line and that they should be reprimanded by the city for their actions.

In the two weeks since I was woken up at 4am by said police officers I've only been able to manage 2 or 3 hours of sleep a night. I've become paranoid in my own house. I get up in the middle of the night to make sure the doors are locked and now wake up to the smallest sound (I was a VERY heavy sleeper before due to living a half-block from the railway). To me, what the police did was no better than what a burglar or home invader does. I'd actually have preferred to have been woken up by a burglar as I would have shot them.


Trust me, there is a laywer who would be happy to bring suit. At the very least, get in touch with the ACLU.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:29 am

Jaznolg wrote:From my own experience, with some police brutality charges I was trying to pursue, lawyers won't touch a case against a police department unless it extremely well documented (by someone other than the police department apparently).

Just to amuse you all. I will tell the story. I was 18 at the time. I was drunk and lipping off to a cop while being arrested for DUI. I did not at any time resist arrest, just pissed him off bigtime. I had my face slammed into the hood of a cop car (while handcuffed) with all of the officer's body weight put into it. It split my chin pretty good and soaked the front of my shirt with blood. Wasn't serious enough to require stitches, but I was busted up pretty good. When I was taken to jail for the drunk driving offense, a lady officer asked what happened and even snapped a couple pictures after I told her. I never saw those pictures. I tried to obtain those pictures a week later to use to make a case, but they claimed they had never taken any such pictures.

Anyways, I called every lawyer in the book on that one. Nobody would touch it.


This is a totally different situation and as far as I care, a cop can kick the shit out of you if you lip off after comitting a felony.

Back in the 70's, if you screwed up as a teenager, you might get a good beating by police and get dropped off at home. People settled arguments with fists instead of guns. I want to live back then, where delivery drivers don't have to fear going into a neighborhood because of a random shooting and little girls can go to a party and not wind up taking a bullet in the head from a pissed off punk wannabe gangbanger.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:39 am

Tasan wrote:This is a totally different situation and as far as I care, a cop can kick the shit out of you if you lip off after comitting a felony.


DUI is a felony? It's a felony to be rude? Police brutality isn't itself a felony?

That's not even DWI, that's DUI. Nor was it even proven in court yet; it was only suspected. If the police worked over every suspected minor offender in this country, the hospitals would be eternally overfilled.

You're a straight shooter, Tasan, but you don't have my vote on policy issues.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:15 am

There is such a thing as a felony DUI. Like if you get into an accident. Mine was a misdemeanor, and I did not resist arrest. I would agree that cops can beat the crap out of anyone they want and get away with it. Even if someone video taped it and sent it to the media. This has been proved before, as we all know. This also should not be tolerated, as we all know.

If cops can beat people up, why wouldn't they get away with trespassing? If you filed a complaint about it, I am positive that nothing would be done. Even if the cop murdered someone in your house, he would only be on paid suspension for a while until he lied in court and got away with it. I have no faith in the justice system whatsoever when it comes to prosecuting police officers.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:26 pm

Jaznolg wrote:If cops can beat people up, why wouldn't they get away with trespassing? If you filed a complaint about it, I am positive that nothing would be done. Even if the cop murdered someone in your house, he would only be on paid suspension for a while until he lied in court and got away with it. I have no faith in the justice system whatsoever when it comes to prosecuting police officers.


Police officers are often charged sucessfully with crimes and punished administratively by things like unpaid leave and demotions.

Furthermore, past complaints are considered when new complaints are made.

Do they get away with illegal acts? Sure. But so do you, unless you mean to tell me you've never gotten in a fight or never driven over the speed limit even 1 mph.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:38 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Jaznolg wrote:If cops can beat people up, why wouldn't they get away with trespassing? If you filed a complaint about it, I am positive that nothing would be done. Even if the cop murdered someone in your house, he would only be on paid suspension for a while until he lied in court and got away with it. I have no faith in the justice system whatsoever when it comes to prosecuting police officers.


Police officers are often charged sucessfully with crimes and punished administratively by things like unpaid leave and demotions.

Furthermore, past complaints are considered when new complaints are made.

Do they get away with illegal acts? Sure. But so do you, unless you mean to tell me you've never gotten in a fight or never driven over the speed limit even 1 mph.


Lol, but those "illlegal acts" jaz gets away with are pretty benign, for one, and undocumented, for another. I've seen cops get away with quite a bit around here, and I would never complain about a cop here. That's the quickest way to get harassed. My friends have complained, and for years they were followed, pulled over for the littlest things, etc. The cops, on the other hand, were never punished.

So, while I agree that complaints may add up, they might not, and I, like many people, will not complain because of the added personal risk in doing so. So, the chance that the same cop will get a complaint filed against him more than once, or twice, is slim to none. Again, I'm not taking that risk. If the guys that beat the shit out of Rodney King can get aquitted even with damning video evidence, lol, there's no way in hell they'll get in trouble for the shit Ghimok had happen to him. No way in hell.
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Postby Vigis » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:01 am

I think the unfortuante thing is that police are human beings, just like anybody else. I'll share a few of my own experiences with police departments.

1. While at an outdoor party, the police arrived and informed us all that we needed to break it up. All individuals were of age and there were no neighbors nearby. 1 person at the party was in fact an off duty officer. 1 partygoer became beligerant and was being handcuffed. The same individual had been involved in some jawing with the off duty officer earlier in the night. While said individual was being handcuffed, the off duty officer came up and punched him in the jaw. The handcuffs were only secured around one wrist. The guy proceeded to beat the hell out of the off duty officer even while 4 uniformed police tried to restrain him. He ended up getting the business end of the nightsticks and all kinds of charges.

2. My brother and I went to the same college. He was involved in some shady things with which I would not participate. The police proceeded to follow me anytime I was driving, bring my name up during interrogations (according to people I know who had been interrogated), tailgate me while I was driving in order to pull me over and search my vehicle, and overall just make themselves a pain in the ass.

3. I got into a fight one night after I got done with work. I worked as a blackjack dealer in the local bars. One night after work I went to meet up with a friend and this guy tried to instigate a fight with me. I walked away in the bar 4 times. After the bar closed I was talking to my friend (only 1 beer in my system because I had finished up work less than an hour before the bars closed) the guy comes up to me and tries to instigate another fight. I offered my hand to shake and call it good, he swung at me. I proceeded to defend myself and an officer witnessed the attack on me. He was a junior officer and was going to let me go when a senior officer showed up and ordered him to book me into the jail. The junior officer was on record as the arresting officer. After the incident, the arresting officer tried to contact me several times and I kept avoiding him. After I plead guilty to disorderly conduct he finally caught me face-to-face and explained that he had been trying to contact me so he could testify on my behalf and get the charges dismissed.

Yeah, so those were some long stories and they all happened in a small town. The thing is, cops are people. They act just like any other clique. If the leader does something, they are going to follow it. Don't lose your trust in all police just because one or two of them are bastards.
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Postby Birile » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:00 pm

Ghimok, try getting ahold of the ACLU. If you have a sliver of a case they'll help you out.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:24 am

Kifle wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Jaznolg wrote:If cops can beat people up, why wouldn't they get away with trespassing? If you filed a complaint about it, I am positive that nothing would be done. Even if the cop murdered someone in your house, he would only be on paid suspension for a while until he lied in court and got away with it. I have no faith in the justice system whatsoever when it comes to prosecuting police officers.


Police officers are often charged sucessfully with crimes and punished administratively by things like unpaid leave and demotions.

Furthermore, past complaints are considered when new complaints are made.

Do they get away with illegal acts? Sure. But so do you, unless you mean to tell me you've never gotten in a fight or never driven over the speed limit even 1 mph.


Lol, but those "illlegal acts" jaz gets away with are pretty benign, for one, and undocumented, for another. I've seen cops get away with quite a bit around here, and I would never complain about a cop here. That's the quickest way to get harassed. My friends have complained, and for years they were followed, pulled over for the littlest things, etc. The cops, on the other hand, were never punished.

So, while I agree that complaints may add up, they might not, and I, like many people, will not complain because of the added personal risk in doing so. So, the chance that the same cop will get a complaint filed against him more than once, or twice, is slim to none. Again, I'm not taking that risk. If the guys that beat the shit out of Rodney King can get aquitted even with damning video evidence, lol, there's no way in hell they'll get in trouble for the shit Ghimok had happen to him. No way in hell.


Rofl. I agree with you in part, but I've seen cases where cops are accused and convicted of committing crimes. But I do want to say that sometimes you get what you ask for/deserve.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.

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