Socialism: Destroying Economies Since... Oh, wait

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Sarvis
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Socialism: Destroying Economies Since... Oh, wait

Postby Sarvis » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:51 am

Can't help but notice that heavily "socialist" countries like Germany have a higher millionaire growth rate than we do: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/In ... ?GT1=10522


Not to mention those damn, dirty commies in China!
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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:05 am

Hrmm,

That article really contradicts the point in your post.

Britain = 60 million population. 610,000 millionaire households
Germany = 82 million population. 350,000 millionaire households

And of the top 5 countries in sheer number of millionaire households, Germany is the only one close to socialist.. and really not so much. When I think of European socialist countries, I'm thinking more along the lines of the scandanavian countries and perhaps France. Germany is about as free market as it gets in Europe outside of Britain, though I agree it is somewhat socialist.

Now the article does say that Europe has had the highest growth rate in millionaire households over the past one year. That, of course, is because we're measuring 'millionaire' in US currency, and the Euro has appreciated significantly against the dollar in the past year. The Europeans are seeing a statistical bump because a million dollars isn't worth as much this year as it was last year.

And even though the Yen has been pretty weak for a long time, Japan still kicks Germany's ass with respect to percentage of population that are part of a millionaire household.

As for the commies in China. Well, with more than 20 times the population of Britain, it has about half as many millionaire households. Thats what you get after years of communist rule. However, China is gaining millionaire households at a faster rate than any other country, which is not surprising because China saw the light and is now more free market than anyone!

Basically, Sarvis, your article demonstrates rather convincingly that free market economies produce more millionaires. I am surprised you linked to it.
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Postby rylan » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:14 am

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Postby Ragorn » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:03 am

I wouldn't even dream of trying to link socialism with millionaires. It's the opposite you want to talk about... percentage of uninsured, children below the poverty line, comparison of CEO salaries to line workers, that sort of thing. Yes, let's talk about how much the average Japanese CEO makes compared to his line workers, and then do the same comparison in America.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:01 pm

Corth wrote:Hrmm,

That article really contradicts the point in your post.

Britain = 60 million population. 610,000 millionaire households
Germany = 82 million population. 350,000 millionaire households

And of the top 5 countries in sheer number of millionaire households, Germany is the only one close to socialist.. and really not so much. When I think of European socialist countries, I'm thinking more along the lines of the scandanavian countries and perhaps France. Germany is about as free market as it gets in Europe outside of Britain, though I agree it is somewhat socialist.

Now the article does say that Europe has had the highest growth rate in millionaire households over the past one year. That, of course, is because we're measuring 'millionaire' in US currency, and the Euro has appreciated significantly against the dollar in the past year. The Europeans are seeing a statistical bump because a million dollars isn't worth as much this year as it was last year.

And even though the Yen has been pretty weak for a long time, Japan still kicks Germany's ass with respect to percentage of population that are part of a millionaire household.

As for the commies in China. Well, with more than 20 times the population of Britain, it has about half as many millionaire households. Thats what you get after years of communist rule. However, China is gaining millionaire households at a faster rate than any other country, which is not surprising because China saw the light and is now more free market than anyone!

Basically, Sarvis, your article demonstrates rather convincingly that free market economies produce more millionaires. I am surprised you linked to it.


Really? They're highly free market? I was confused by their welfare systems and public healthcare systems, which we are constantly told are socialist disasters for the economy.

Care to elaborate why state funded healthcare in Germany is "free market" but unversal healthcare in the US is "a plank in the wall of communism?"
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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:35 pm

I did not say Germany was 'highly free market'. I said that Germany is 'somewhat socialist'. You aren't going to try and tell me that Germany is as socialist as the Scandanavian countries and France are you?

You didn't address the rest of the points in my post. Are you ok Sarvis? :)
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Postby Birile » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:53 pm

Corth is right, aside from Britain, Germany isn't as socialist as most of the other European countries--especially, as Corth said, the Scandinavian countries and France. Then again, which European country is probably the biggest giver of foreign aid to other European countries? Germany. They're rather altruistic. :D

Corth is also correct in stating that the main reason these other countries had such a boost is because we're measuring millionaire in US Dollar terms, and we all know (or should know) how weakened the US Dollar has become this year.

And while the article could arguably conclude that free market economies produce more millionaires, my response to that would be, "So?"
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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:04 pm

Birile,

Heheh, ok I'm glad we're on the same page. I wouldn't have expected anyone in favor of socialism to advocate for the creation of wealth. Sarvis really threw me for a loop there :)
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:26 pm

Corth wrote:I did not say Germany was 'highly free market'. I said that Germany is 'somewhat socialist'. You aren't going to try and tell me that Germany is as socialist as the Scandanavian countries and France are you?

You didn't address the rest of the points in my post. Are you ok Sarvis? :)


You said they were more free market than anyplace else in Europe.

Ok, so Germany isn't as socialist as Finland... but they are more socialist than us and still producing more wealth than us, right? HArdly an indictment of socialist programs if you ask me.

Also, I don't think any of us "evil socialists" are against the creation of wealth. Creation of wealth is a good thing, but we're well past the point where we can use the wealth being created to make life better for everyone. Germany has done this, and it seems to be working out.
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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:15 pm

Uh, no. Germany is not producing more wealth than the US. Their percentage increase in millionaire households was greater than the US, for just the past year, because the dollar was weak. However, the US still had more actual millionaire households created than Germany in the past year. That is more or less a function of our higher population.

If you want to compare different economic systems by showing how well they do relative to each other, it is much more appropriate to take a look at the long term picture rather than what happened in just the past few months or years. That is why it is interesting to compare the population of Germany and Britain, along with the actual amount of millionaire households. Germany has more people, and much less millionaires. Thats a reflection of the long term difference between mostly free market (Britain) countries, and somewhat socialist (Germany) countries.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:08 pm

Also, consider:

Britain has benefited from the German Deutchmark's strength which is probably one of the main reasons the Euro ever succeeded in the first place. There are a lot of countries which have benefited from Germany's work ethic (better craftsmanship), Germany's Deutchmark and Germany's altruism in general.
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Postby Birile » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:14 pm

The US dollar's fall is really the main reason there was such a huge percentage increase in millionaire households in those countries--it's possible for one household to have the same amount of Euros this year that they had last year and be bumped up into the list of "millionaires"--because those Euros are now worth a million US dollars whereas last year they would've been worth $800-900K. In other words, their buying power only really increased in the US. On the flip side, a US millionaire last year might still be a millionaire this year, but his/her buying power around the world dropped considerably this year.

That being said, it still means much of the rest of the world--free market and socialist countries alike--had a better year than the US.

*shrug*
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Postby Kifle » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:49 pm

Corth wrote:It certainly is a way of measuring economic success.....

I don't know what it is about this thread.. some very strange posts and reactions. At least Birile is making some sense.. heh.


I think the point of the thread was to show that socialism doesn't necessarily kill an economy or disallow the gathering of personal wealth. And I say socialism in respect to countries more socialist than our own. In the case of Germany and Britan, while they aren't as socialized as France and Norway, are still considered more socialized than us; however, their economies are raising (in relation to the number of millionaires). Now, I could see how that could be attributed to other things like the dollar's weakened status in the world market, and that is a poor example of guaging an economy with respect to this current discussion, but I don't think the intent of the post is really being argued here -- just that the original argument was poorly constructed.

Just my two cents.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:11 am

Partly I found it amusing, and partly I wanted to point out that socialized medicine, welfare and minimum wages aren't the death knell to an economy many conservatives would have us believe.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:41 pm

This thread is out of control. I have split the topic and moved all posts since the point where things started to go downhill. My apologies to those who participated in the thread civilly.

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