Computer Field Question

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Computer Field Question

Postby Kifle » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:00 am

Well, after fiddling, fixing, and building computers for nearly thirteen years, I'm thinking about getting some certifications for a back-up plan in case this philosophy degree proves to be as useless as I expected. Anyway, I know a few of you are in the IT/Network field, so I was wondering what certifications I would need to get a decent job (added to the philosophy degree). I'm pretty sure I'll be able to breeze through the A+ cert, but I'm honstly not sure if it is very usefull beyond getting a job at the geek squad or some crap like that. So, let me know what you guys think. Names of the certifications + time you think it would take to learn/pass the certs.

Gracias.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:15 am

MCSE 1 year?
CCNA dunno how long
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:41 pm

Dalar wrote:MCSE 1 year?
CCNA dunno how long


Yeah, I was looking at the MCSE and, somehow, got ahold of a testout MCSE CD training course. I have seen a lot of people say that it's pretty manditory these days to get any type of network admin job for server 2000/3/8 jobs. As far as the CCNA, is cysco still the big thing?

I'm about halfway done with this A+ book and it's pretty boring. They don't actually expect me to remember how many pins a pentium II based celeron chip had in it, do they?
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Postby Botef » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:38 pm

They probably will Kifle!

I got right up to the testing part of A+ in highschool, did all the pre tests and even worked on one of their expensive 'Self-Breaking' machines and thought it looked like a load of bollocks.

Most of the questions on the mock exam were just like that, how many pins on a SCSI cable, how many on a PS-1, What is DOS short for, etc. Seemed like a waste of time and money for a cert that would be outdated and worthless in a few years. They wanted you to memorize a bunch of information that really wasn't very helpful in troubleshooting PC problems and seemed to offer very little useful information. A Dummies Guide to how a computer works would have probably been a lot more effective.

The mock test I took was pretty easy, but questions like you mentioned were frequent.

The PCI card that came in the 'Self-Breaking' machine was sweet though. Put that sucker in any machine and it's instantly 'broken' till you figure out what the card changed and correct it. Was great fun watching the IT techs in high school try to figure out what we'd done to his machines :X

I haven't paid much attention to that realm of stuff in quite a few years, but I still hear MSCE mentioned all the time and suspect its probably a good start.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:49 pm

So A+ is pretty worthless, eh? I just find it rediculous to have to memorize crap like that. I've been fixing these things for years and have never, ever had to remember the amount of L1/2 cache or socket types of outdate cpus. I think I'll still get it just to put it on a resume though.
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Postby Botef » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:37 pm

Yea I was pretty put off by all the useless questions and information and the utter lack of applicable stuff. At the time it was a pretty expensive test to take too (Like $200+ I think) and since I wasn't planning on going into IT anyways I dropped it. It probably looks good on a resume regardless - if only to show that you put up with a useless cert exam for the sake of being certified.
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Postby Yasden » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:21 pm

MSCE is just another way for Microsoft to get your money. You have to recert EVERY TIME there is a major service pack release. The test is not cheap either...you're looking at around $250 last I recall.

A+ isn't a bad way to go, but Network+ and Security+ are much better options. CCNA is a real pain to study for. I'm still working on mine, and I plan on getting my CCNP/CCSP too thereafter. Don't think I'll ever go for the CCIE, which is only tested in 3 places in the world, costs about 4 grand and a full week to complete the test (lab testing too).

Eventually my ultimate goal is to become a CISSP, which is where the big bucks lie in the security field. Of course, it requires an apprenticeship type of program so it'll be a long time before I have it.

There's an MSCE Security cert now, but I'm inclined to believe it has the same problems as the standard MSCE. There's plenty of other certifications out there, but your best bet for the time being is finding the ones that pertain to what you're wanting to do and don't require you to recertify all the time.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:00 am

Yasden wrote:MSCE is just another way for Microsoft to get your money. You have to recert EVERY TIME there is a major service pack release. The test is not cheap either...you're looking at around $250 last I recall.

A+ isn't a bad way to go, but Network+ and Security+ are much better options. CCNA is a real pain to study for. I'm still working on mine, and I plan on getting my CCNP/CCSP too thereafter. Don't think I'll ever go for the CCIE, which is only tested in 3 places in the world, costs about 4 grand and a full week to complete the test (lab testing too).

Eventually my ultimate goal is to become a CISSP, which is where the big bucks lie in the security field. Of course, it requires an apprenticeship type of program so it'll be a long time before I have it.

There's an MSCE Security cert now, but I'm inclined to believe it has the same problems as the standard MSCE. There's plenty of other certifications out there, but your best bet for the time being is finding the ones that pertain to what you're wanting to do and don't require you to recertify all the time.


Would I be very marketable with a philosophy degree, A+ and either security/network+ certs in the sys admin/IT admin area or do people tend to look at the degree as well rather than just certs?
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Postby Zoldren » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:21 am

Overall certs
A+ = crap, but looks good to people who dont know better
Net+ better than A+, and will get you a second glance
Sec+ good for alot of jobs, government jobs requires it. - life cert bout $250

Networking
CCNA 3 years, good for networking job - cisco basic networking $250
JNCIA 2 years, good for networking job - Juniper/netscreen basic networking $250

High lvl security/management
CISSP - requires alot of exp and knowlegde 5 hour test

Pc/low lvl networking
MSP/MCSE etc good for PC related

In general most of the MCSE and A+ people i've met (not all) where idiots and couldn't tell me what an IP was on a computer.. so when hiring I don't put much weight on those 2..

However, having the MCSE shows willingness to learn, and follow through so deserves a second look.




Basically it depends on the field your going into.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:43 am

Next to CCNA you have 3yrs... is that how long the cert is good for? I have been reading and the CISSP requires actualy on the job experience before you can actually earn the cert (but you can take the test whenever). Is the CCNA the same?

Basically, I'm trying to turn a busted degree into a career that has nothing to do (virtually) with my degree. I had a visual basic course about 7 years ago and a blow-off elective "intro to microcomputers" course about 3 years ago... that's all I have on my transcript. So, what I'm needing are the certs I need to A) get a job and then certs to get a better job. I'd rather not have to start work as a low-level service tech at best buy or the local over-priced computer store making $7.50. While I know I wont start at the top, it'd be nice to start making a livable wage. Thanks so far on the help guys. Since A+ is cheap and I know most of the stuff anyway, I think I'll still finish studying for the next week (I still don't see the point in learning socket types and cache amounts of 10yr old processors) and pass the two exams. Also, since I don't have a CS degree, or anything close to it, I'm very wary of comitting myself to a vendor specific certification; however, if it works, it works.

Again, thanks for the help here, guys. I'm really struggling to get some kind of career started here, but getting into HR and business with a philosophy degree is really starting to drain my soul. Not sure I can take many more months of being rejected for jobs I could do while getting punched in the dick by a clown while he sings oops I did it again.
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Postby Yasden » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:51 pm

There's absolutely no danger in getting certified in anything Cisco. Now for Linux....that's another fish bowl entirely. Microsoft, unfortunately, will be around for the long haul.

Any bachelor's degree (or any secondary education degree in all honesty) is marketable, because it shows you're willing to take the steps to educate yourself and do something with your life. While some jobs may actually want you to have a degree in the field, those jobs are generally the more advanced and specific niche-oriented ones. Much like how bank managers are usually required to have an MBA, the MBA just makes you look really good if you're an account rep for some company. They're ultimately looking for the experience you have under your belt in the field.

More people will look at your certifications than your degree, especially if they're well-known and reputable ones that require a bit of effort to get (read: A+ is stupid easy and I'll get it just to pad the resume only). I'll have my bachelor's in Information Systems Security next March (currently have my Associate's in Computer Networking Systems), so any jobs I apply for in the security/networking field will definitely look at that. In the end, they'll want to know for sure I know what the hell I'm doing when I'm trying to subnet a network out to /20 and make sure the Oracle server is completely secure from the DMZ. That's where the certs come in.
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Postby Vaprak » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:28 am

I have no college degree.

I have an A+ cert (most basic 15 minute test I've ever taken) that is completely worthless.

I have a Network+ cert (second easiest computer test I've ever taken. Took me approximately 20 minutes to finish). I use knowledge from the test material covered on this test on a day to day basic, but taking the test didn't give me the knowledge.

I have a Server+ cert, which covered a bunch of stuff i never use.

I have a couple of Microsoft certifications, basically enough to be 1 test away from a MCSA. Pretty much completely pointless in the real world, just resume candy.

I know Cisco Pix firewalls inside and out and consider myself to be fairly proficient in basic Cisco router functionality and troubleshooting. I doubt I could pass the CCNA test though, nor would it be worth my while.

I'm CIO at a medium-sized bank btw. And just had a federal examiner say that my one-man shop is in the top 3 of hundreds of banks he has recently examined as far as security, administration, and use of technology to advance the business goes. When I get to the point where I have to hire someone to be under me Certifications will only get them in the door. College degrees won't even factor into my equation unless they went for some sort of engineering, in which case they shouldn't be working as a low level IT worker anyways most likely. Interview skills, ability to learn, and demonstratable general problem-solving ability will play the biggest part.

If you want to make good money working in IT, work on getting your CISSP. It'll be grueling and it will turn you into a boring bean-counter f*ck. But you'll make good dough. Consultants: They may not be part of the solution, but there's great money to be made in prolonging the problem.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:32 am

With a degree in philosophy, I assume you have all the core educational credits completed.

You could spend another two years in school and get yourself some sort of IT BS.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:58 am

teflor the ranger wrote:With a degree in philosophy, I assume you have all the core educational credits completed.

You could spend another two years in school and get yourself some sort of IT BS.


I could, but I really really hate school and just want to get out. And I figured studying for 3-6 months and getting a cisco cert along with maybe the MCSE and building off the A+ would do the job just as well. Especially since I'd be getting certifications outside of my field of primary study (shows I'm very capable of learning). That's basically my question. Are the certifications just as good as spending the extra time in school? And, if I were going to go back to school it would be to get my secondary education degree in politics or english or something.

So far I have the consesus that A+ is shit, but is easy, easy resume fluff (also gets me in the door to entry-level tech positions to build experience + more resume fluff). MCSE is not very marketable or useful. CCNA is a good platform after probably the network+ cert then work towards the CISSP if I want more cash? So, A+, Network+, CCNA, CISSP in that order and after the network+ I should be decently marketable for an IT/network admin job?
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Postby Vaprak » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:18 pm

The CISSP is specific to information security.

You'd basically be bustin chops on people that do stupid stuff that exposes the company or companies that you work for to security threats and helping design secure infrastructure.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Kifle wrote:(also gets me in the door to entry-level tech positions to build experience + more resume fluff).


Also consider that some of those entry level jobs will probably pay for you to gain more certifications.
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:06 am

People with a CISSP usually command 80-90k minimum annually. However, you also become the scapegoat for major security breaches.

Don't forget to look into Security+ if you're going that route.
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Postby Todrael » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:09 pm

At my job, they have 'tiers' of required certification to hold certain positions. A+ satisfies tier 1, Network+ OR Security+ satisfies tier 2, and the big expensive certs satisfy tier 3. Network+ and Security+ are actually useful.

CISSP is what you want if you want to spend your life doing IA stuff (Information Assurance - Security), but judging by the people I've seen who have it, and one of my coworkers who's looking into it (satisfies all tiers and any future requirements), it's a mile wide and an inch deep, and doesn't necessarily prove you know much about IT.

Cisco certifications like the CCNA have the highest pay adjustment of any common cert in the industry - something close to +30%. I've heard pretty universally that if you have one of these, then you definitely know something and are a clueful person. That is, a CCNA actually holds weight.

MCSE and related MS certs are generally 'liked', but not very indicative of quality. I know someone who can barely use a spreadsheet that's an MCSE. They take quite a bit of time and effort, requires about 7 different tests, and you have to memorize everything 'the Microsoft way' - that is, the way that's built into the OS, rather than the way everybody does it (third party tools). About as bad as the A+ for memorizing pointless crap, just a lot more thorough in other ways.

As you said, A+ opens the door (Geek Squad), Network+ lets you take a seat (junior tech), CCNA gets you a 'real job', and CISSP gets you a career (bureaucrat).

Note that Experience is generally more important once you get beyond entry-level. I'd suggest spinning your college learning into benefit for an IT career - critical thinking skills shown through logic courses or the like, the ability to reduce problems to their component parts. You can also put any of your hobby work on your resume - it's essential to do so if that includes lots of work with computers.

Every person who does hiring is different, so don't focus on any particular anecdote: the point is to market yourself, and target the position you're applying for, showing as much skill or expertise in that domain as possible, even if it doesn't exactly match with the posted requirements.

My Philosophy Minor attracted more attention to my resume than the cookie-cutter tech-heads applying. As the interviewer said, "Ah, a thinker."
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Postby Todrael » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:39 pm

Also a quick comment on your last question... "IT/network admin" is generally not an entry level position except in small businesses where there's only 1-3 total IT guys. People move through phone support, to tier 2 support, to specialized support, to admin. This can be compressed of course, and steps can be skipped, but a cert won't be your way of jumping past all the gruntwork. Only experience can do that; if you've got the experience, outside of a working environment, then it's possible, but unlikely, especially since everything you've learned will have to be relearned to conform to the 'business processes' of the company you work for. The alternative would be to work for a much smaller organization than most.

If you really want to be an admin, here's the best general purpose book on all aspects of the topic (including career development):

The Practice of System and Network Administration, 2nd ed. by Thomas Limoncelli et al.

There's also the professional organization SAGE (System Administrator Guild, a suborg of USENIX), and the conference LISA (Large Installation System Administration), where you can learn more about the job and network with members.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:08 pm

Where do you work Tod? Also, would going to small business first being an IT admin be good experience to skip past the annoying grunt work you talk about?
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:37 pm

Dalar wrote:Where do you work Tod? Also, would going to small business first being an IT admin be good experience to skip past the annoying grunt work you talk about?


This was the exact question I had after reading what Tod wrote. I was actually looking to get into small business IT admin after working for a local shop for a while (I've been building personal systems out of my home for nearly 4 years now).
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:19 pm

I did about 2.5 years being an IT admin at a small business (about 70 computers). Felt like grunt work.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:21 pm

Kifle wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:With a degree in philosophy, I assume you have all the core educational credits completed.

You could spend another two years in school and get yourself some sort of IT BS.


I could, but I really really hate school and just want to get out. And I figured studying for 3-6 months and getting a cisco cert along with maybe the MCSE and building off the A+ would do the job just as well. Especially since I'd be getting certifications outside of my field of primary study (shows I'm very capable of learning). That's basically my question. Are the certifications just as good as spending the extra time in school? And, if I were going to go back to school it would be to get my secondary education degree in politics or english or something.

So far I have the consesus that A+ is shit, but is easy, easy resume fluff (also gets me in the door to entry-level tech positions to build experience + more resume fluff). MCSE is not very marketable or useful. CCNA is a good platform after probably the network+ cert then work towards the CISSP if I want more cash? So, A+, Network+, CCNA, CISSP in that order and after the network+ I should be decently marketable for an IT/network admin job?


A lot of employers in the IT field will happily take an MCSE in lieu of a degree in computers, especially since you already have a BA or BS. But you may have to travel a bit from your area and you would be looking strictly for entry-level. Other, more marketable higher-end professional degrees would put you back into school for a while and aren't particularly easy to obtain. However, I would suggest you pursue these certifications while employed, as your employer may pick up the cost of the classes and tests.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:03 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Kifle wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:With a degree in philosophy, I assume you have all the core educational credits completed.

You could spend another two years in school and get yourself some sort of IT BS.


I could, but I really really hate school and just want to get out. And I figured studying for 3-6 months and getting a cisco cert along with maybe the MCSE and building off the A+ would do the job just as well. Especially since I'd be getting certifications outside of my field of primary study (shows I'm very capable of learning). That's basically my question. Are the certifications just as good as spending the extra time in school? And, if I were going to go back to school it would be to get my secondary education degree in politics or english or something.

So far I have the consesus that A+ is shit, but is easy, easy resume fluff (also gets me in the door to entry-level tech positions to build experience + more resume fluff). MCSE is not very marketable or useful. CCNA is a good platform after probably the network+ cert then work towards the CISSP if I want more cash? So, A+, Network+, CCNA, CISSP in that order and after the network+ I should be decently marketable for an IT/network admin job?


A lot of employers in the IT field will happily take an MCSE in lieu of a degree in computers, especially since you already have a BA or BS. But you may have to travel a bit from your area and you would be looking strictly for entry-level. Other, more marketable higher-end professional degrees would put you back into school for a while and aren't particularly easy to obtain. However, I would suggest you pursue these certifications while employed, as your employer may pick up the cost of the classes and tests.


That's what I was hoping for, really. I'll probably never get the CISSP, but it's nice to know that there are ways to move up in pay if I need them. Network and A+ aren't very expensive, so I'd happily foot the bill if I needed to to get the job. Thanks for the help/advice guys. I'm hoping to get the necessary certs before I graduate (May).
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:45 am

I've been in professional IT since 97 and worked about 10 different jobs including managing plus consulting on the side. I know the certs pretty well and know lots of certificate holders. I think certs are good to move you in your mid career when you have at least a couple years of experience. Really not much of a beginning career move although it could get you an interview that you wouldn't have otherwise.

my experience is that companies don't hire certified people without experience. If you have no real experience then you need to find a position with a company where you can grow... generally a smaller company where you can do it all or a mid sized one that has half as much staff as they "need" and will let you jump in and pitch a hand. Take a couple years of experience like this and throw a certification on top of it and you'll be well positioned to get a good job. Be prepared to work like a slave and burn the midnight oil to get the opportunities to grow your knowledge and experience.

My best advice for this approach, go work helpdesk at a hospital and regularly apply for promotions. Start as a volunteer if you hvae to (not necessarily in IT). Most hospitals hire from within because they want people who can work with clinical staff and people who know their niche products. Plus, I think your long term prospects are good in the healthcare industry and hospitals spend tons of money on technology, you don't really want to work for a company who sends you down to best buy to get a new "server".

Also realize that you have two distinct paths in IS, technical or analytical. I think the average wages in the analytical side are going to surpass those in the technical side in the next few years (if it hasn't already). Server engineers are becoming the PC techs of the 90s. With technical work, your knowledge becomes worth less over time as technology advances. With Analytical work, your knowledge of old programs (and business processes) becomes more valuable at the company upgrades apps / features and brings new people on board who need help understanding the application. Also in an analytical role, you often get the opportunity to work on the next "new" project applying your analytical skills. As a technical guy, your role is limited to things like building the next server and you're not going to get the gig building the Unix server if all you know is Microsoft.

My view of certs:
CISSP actually not as hard as people say, but you'll most likely end up as a consultant. very irritating to do as a regular employee because no one listens to you until after the security disaster. There are some experience requirements to get the cert.

CCNA - this is a networking cert, switches routers ect 3 tests I think (they just released a new certification track). good cert to have for pay AND for actual knowledge. Network is fundamental to everything you do IT. So many problems at one point or another are blamed on the network, your 50% further if you know the truth. #1 complaint amongst PC tech managers is that their techs can't troubleshoot and that often comes from not understanding how networks work. Demand for network engineers is on the rise, cable companies, teclo companies everyone is looking for these. If the recession causes companies to consolidate, someone has to connect make their networks work together. This is actually one of the easier certs to get imo because the subject area is so small, just networks. Virtual labs can give you the hands on without having to have a bunch of devices / servers.

MCSE and its 13 flavors. This cert won't get you a job, but this cert and a year of experience might get you an interview against people with 5 years of experience and you could possibly get the job. I find very few people are actually MCSE certified in your average IT department. More common than any of the other certs, but uncommon enough to give you a competitive advantage of those that don't have a lot of expeience. Basically 6 tests at around $100 a test. Microsoft does a promotion i think where you can basically take the test twice for the same cost (built in fail!). Good early career move. Its not really hard, but its several distinct subjects. If your smart and gutsy, pass 1 test a month.

MCP, entry level Microsoft cert, if you pick the right tests, they contribute to your MCSE. 2 tests I believe. Great beginning move would probably give you a huge boost on getting a tech job and position you well to expand your duties into systems engineering. The first test covers a lot of networking stuff, but not like CCNA.

PMP project management professional. IT project managers are in incredinble demand these days. This cert typically requires a class (expensive) + a test + having had some acutal project management experience. Strong mid career move especially if you want to go into management.

MCDBA. Lots of demand for database administrators. This area will grow because of the pressures of the move towards Business Intelligence. Fun job if you like administration with occasional opportunities to do creative stuff. 4 tests i think, some of which are also used in the MCSE. Probably pretty rough unless you hvae someone to help mentor you on databases.

Oracle. I would avoid this one until you know a lot about databases and are ready to narrow your career down into Oracle database administration. Its 100% different than Microsoft databases (which are the most prolific) and the skills are not really transferrable. Companies who use Oracle have huge databases and won't tolerate any mistakes. If you are interested in DBA, start with Microsoft and move to Oracle in a well planned manner. Easiest way this happens, if your company decides to implement Oracle applications.

Unix... same problem with Oracle, people who run their business on Unix servers usually need experienced administrators. Best way to get here is to join a company that is cheap and open to linux. Work your ass off to get everything integrated so they will let you install more linux, then get a real Unix cert and interview for a junior unix admin position.

VMWare, great consolidation technology very very hot. Must take a class for certification. Work is easy. This cert will become worthless if they don't make the product 3x as complicated as it is today. Powerful career move if you are already expereinced and able to jump on this within the year.

Programming - there are lots of programming certs these days. Any of them gives you a competitive advantage over others, but with globalization, you're always going to be in fear of losing your job to India or Russia. Its very easy to outsource programming (or buy off the shelf products). I think these certs tend to be a little tougher because of the very detailed questions and wide coverage. I would advise against these unless you love programming.

enjoy.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:40 am

Kiryan mentioned a good one, the PMP - this one is huge, as he said, as project management needs increase with the departure of the baby boomers.

I work for the Department of Defense. There are more than 1.8 million federal jobs in America, so there's quite a bit of diversity even with the same employer. I got into a federal intern program straight out of college after a 20 minute phone interview, and was put into a sysadmin position after 2 years of weird in between jobs.

Note on my comments: I've only been in the industry for 3 years, but I like to think that I pick out other people's wisdom pretty well :p
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alendar
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Postby alendar » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:13 am

Todrael wrote:I work for the Department of Defense.


uh you did forget all that stuff i said on acc while you were in Triterium.... right?


no really man you need to forget that stuff


no really
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