Warrior hitpoints

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Warrior hitpoints

Postby Thilindel » Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:19 pm

Please do something with grey elf warrior hps. After 2 different chars with perfect innate con, most (80%) rolled an '8' per level. Most received was '10'. Even if Grey elves were 4 notches below a dwarf in constitution, which they're not, those hps don't match. Dwarf with perfect con gets a min I've seen as '13' hps. This is sad - I'm really hoping something's wrong cuz getting 8 hps as a norm is wrong, and 2ndly, grey rogues receive more than 8 on average 8)
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Postby Kifle » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:43 pm

Elves are wussy; that's all there is to it. But yeah, i have noticed a lot of my chrs with percect con getting mostly lower hps rolls when i level. It's wierd...and while we're on the topic of racial stats...why can't my halfing drag a naked dwarf while an elf can drag multiple ones?! this is silly and should be changed!
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:22 am

Racial profiling at its ugliest :P True elves are wimps, BUT that's why they on average have 2 hps less per lvl..that's what it SHOULD be. What the truth is, seemingly, is there's an 80% chance to get the lowest die roll possible, then a trickle chance getting higher roll. to date, 3 elves with perfect con getting 8 hps as warrior. That's amazingly unfair, because if someone to say, 'sure a dwarf vs. elf in melee - the dwarf would pound him one.' but what about eating area nukes, breath, etc...it's just not fair.
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:11 am

It's a 5 hp per level difference not 4. And it's fine as it stands.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:27 am

Hyldryn wrote:It's a 5 hp per level difference not 4. And it's fine as it stands.


You're joking right? 8 hps/lvl basically is 'fine' for a warrior, when dwarves get on average 14.5 or better? God, I hope you're joking that you think it's fine. Also, I said con notch dif' of 4 just to be conservative. Duergar mage gets 5 hp/lvl straight after 25, whereas grey elf gets 3. So racially, I can see a 2 hp/lvl difference between the races. The point is you are so prone in getting an '8' and not an average from 8-12.

I can't help but wonder if some races are just not meant to be a certain class. Dwarves own elves in con/str, but elves in general, are just so prone to getting the lowest roll in some classes. My view is when a grey elf eats a cloud, or lava burst, it'll suck mightily!
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:58 am

Whoops, what I forgot to mention is that dwarven rogues get from 9-12 hps so I've noticed. Grey elf get 7-10. So I don't see how it can be 5 con notches..kinda hard to figure that one out. Rogue hps for grey elf are seemingly random. But again, warrior hps pale vs. rogue. Especially enhancing that is when they're basically always getting an '8' - There's no way that's bad luck out of 31 tested levels on 3 chars w/perfect con.
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Postby omrec » Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:59 am

Different classes get different con notches. Rogue con notches might be closer than warrior con notches.

A human mage, for instance, doesn't get jack for getting to 103 con. A human warrior gets a notch. Anyone done any tests with the various classes to see where the maxes are? I'm assuming they're set for the 4 basic classes...

-Om
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Postby Ihazim » Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:48 pm

there was a change a while ago to increase all rogue hps.
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:09 pm

It's fine. 250 hp difference at level 50 between barb/dwarf and grey is not much when you consider the number of hp after spell up.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:47 pm

Wonder how significant the 250? hps diff will be when eq changes come in? Despite all the replies, there's no reason that A) rogue hps are higher than a warrior *elf only, not sure of other races* on average. All I'm contending is it's extremely consistant that elven warriors roll the dreaded 8 hps and it's very annoying! :( For the just starting out crowd, which I'm sure will expand now that we're told there is advertising, etc, newer players will have trouble with the hps I could only assume. If the elfy warrior got the true range of 8-12 (god that makes you wanna gag for warrior hps) then it wouldn't be so bad - the pivotal argument is that it's insane to get virtually all 8's as any warrior.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:19 pm

my grey elf warrior is only lvl 20 but got on average 8-12 hps per level ... *shrug*

Edited: took out the occasional higher ... still not sure but ...
Last edited by Ambar on Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:34 pm

I've always liked the fact that grey elf warriors are handicapped with such low hitpoints, it makes them a greater challenge to play. My hitpoints as a grey rogue pretty much suck, but I seem to do okay most of the time.
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Postby Yarash » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:28 pm

Thilindel wrote:Duergar mage gets 5 hp/lvl straight after 25, whereas grey elf gets 3. So racially, I can see a 2 hp/lvl difference between the races.


I have no opinion to add, but for the purpose of sharing information, human mages also get 3 hp/level. I'm not sure what human warriors get.

- Mike
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:53 am

Paladins get up to 14/lvl - grey elf warrior max is 12/lvl. cuz hps do not range from 8-14 (since someone earlier believed they received 14 for elf lvl..that's statistically impossible in game since hps range by 4 in warrior class, not sure bout evils.) *I do know dwarves seem to range from 13-16 so imagine a 17 is possible.
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Postby Frensolith » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:30 am

Well, i have 431 hps naked at 48 with my max con notch(under 100 kind)

So i think it was 6 hps after 25

so 431 - 23*6 = 293, so 293 at 25, (293 - 34(starting hps) ) /24

and leaves me with an avg of 10.79 hps gained per level in levels 1-25.
Think i was a bit lucky :P

But yea, i probably have cpl hps from being oh so old, but as i remember hp range was 8-12, dont think i ever got outside those numbers, but i could be wrong
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Postby Mitharx » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:48 am

Thil, you're the man, but Dwarf warriors should have more hps than other types. They weaker, less agiles, and have lower dex than barbs. They're less agile than elves and have lower dex. I'm not against elves getting a few more hps for wars, but I seriously believe they should have around the same amount of total hps as paladins. They have some advantages and some disadvantages. They're a challenege and respectable in their differences. I say leave them as they are and upgrade dwarves!

No wait. What I meant to say was dwarves have the lower con, dex, str, than the other wars. Please let us keep the hps. We don't have much else to hang on to here.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:11 pm

Frensolith wrote: ...
So i think it was 6 hps after 25
...


OMG! What's funny is druid gets 5/lvl (grey elf) past 25. I _believe_ dwarves get 15..but it's been too long for me to remember :(
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Postby Lenefir » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:29 pm

Just as a side note; you know the amount of grey elves have increased dramatically (lately)... I don't really mind upgrades to the grey elf race, but it seems kind of odd when half of the goodie players are elves... To me it looks like they are just fine the way they are now, or we would end up with the only good reason to not play an elf (if you're goodie) is because you can't select a class. (And it seems that way to arcane spellcasters already...)
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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:45 pm

I feel that elves shouldn't get an hp boost. They have their own advantages to compensate. And the same hp as a paladin? That's insane. Paladins get human warrior hp, so you want elves to have the same hp as humans while remaining far better in all the other areas (except -1 dam worth of strength)?
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:59 pm

Hyldryn wrote:I feel that elves shouldn't get an hp boost. They have their own advantages to compensate. And the same hp as a paladin? That's insane. Paladins get human warrior hp, so you want elves to have the same hp as humans while remaining far better in all the other areas (except -1 dam worth of strength)?


? I'm clueless where you think I want grey warriors to get paladin hps. What I said was refering to Ambar's statement where they recall getting 14 hps, which is erroneous. I said paladins get up to 14. I didn't say, whatsoever, grey elves should get that. What I am stating is this:

Out of 31 levels from three grey elf warrior chars, all with perfect con, the average dice roll was 8.4. PRETTY PATHETIC. I'm complaining about the dice always ALWAYS rolling low, that's it. Now if it really is the fact that grey warriors get 6 hp/lvl after 25, that's just stupid. My druid (grey elf) is getting 5/lvl.

Tankage, greys get one agi notch over gnomes, losing con in the process. Grey is stronger, same dex (both 7 hitroll innate max). gnome warriors get human hps and certainly don't get bottom barrel rolls. I tested both halfling/gnomes, was getting 14's pretty well. I've spent some time testing - basically I'm just _really_ wondering why the grey elf race is so prone to rolling low.

There are a lot of casters out there, I feel, because playing a hitter is pretty boring. When your warrior to be is receiving 8's most the time, interest focuses back to casters *shrug* I wanted a change of pace. Gnomes get that agi notch grey elves have with just one max_agi eq. halflings get the gnome's notch with the same one piece of max_agi eq. The considerable loss of hps vs. gnome doesn't make sense. (again, since gnome was rolling 10-14 randomly, and consistantly) **the point is (yet again) elfs do NOT get the spectrum of the dice.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:38 pm

you probably wont find this relevant in all your testiung but here goes ...

help grey
Unlike their cousins the drow, grey elves live on the surface and
prefer to dwell in forests. They are exceptionally intelligent and
swift, but are inclined to be weaker and smaller than humans. Grey
elves stand between five and six feet, and will generally have very
slender builds.

Elf Stats: Elves tend to be weaker and frailer than Humans, but are
also quicker and more intelligent.


help gnome
Gnomes are small, sturdy humanoids who are well known for their quick
hands and good humor. Smaller and weaker than humans, gnomes have
more wit to compensate.

Gnome Stats: Gnomes have very quick minds, but seem to lack the
wisdom to use that intelligence well. Their bodies are
also fairly quick, which is probably good, because they
are also weak, and not very appealing.

help dwarf
*snip*
mining race known for their fine craftsmanship
of weapons and armor. They are good-natured, sturdy, fearsome
warriors who possess, due to extremely dense muscle and bone
structure, high endurance. Stronger but clumsier than humans,
mountain dwarves *snip*

Dwarf Stats: Dwarves are stronger and hardier than humans, and
somewhat more dexterous, but tend to be less intelligent
and agile.

basically what I read into this ..

* grey elves smaller and weaker (more frail so to speak) and more agile/dexterous
* gnomes still small but bigger than grey's and more agile/dexterous
* dorf bigger and less agie/dexterousl

why wouldnt the smaller race have fewer hitpoints?? consider their natural agility and naturally lower AC ... perhaps I am way off base here .. but .. well anyway ..

and comparing priest/mage/warrior hp gains together is like comparing apples to oranges ....
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Postby thanuk » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:24 pm

When barbarians and dwarves are no longer the best races to choose for a goodrace tank, then you guys upstairs screwed something up. It shouldn't even be close.

Elves and gnomes are caster races. If you want to play a warrior, play a barbarian or a dwarf. If you insist on being an elf or gnome or halfling warrior, don't complain that your hps suck, or that you can't tank as good as the other classes, because you aren't supposed to be able to.
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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:26 pm

Other people were saying they wanted greys to have human paladin hp, not you. Why do you think I was talking solely to you? Or did you #gag Mitharx. There are other ppl posting in the thread after all. :roll:

And in comparison to gnomes for a warrior, the difference in "max notches" is 1 str and 1 agi vs 2 con. That's a fair trade in my opinion. I like my grey as she is. An increase in hp would cheapen the character that she is.
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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:27 pm

Its quite possible to be a viable small race tank.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:33 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Its quite possible to be a viable small race tank.


Oh its definately possible, but if you took all your skills and stats and eq and changed over to a barbarian or dwarf, you would tank better than with your gnome. When that is no longer the case, something's broken.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:46 pm

thanuk wrote:
Hyldryn wrote:Its quite possible to be a viable small race tank.


Oh its definately possible, but if you took all your skills and stats and eq and changed over to a barbarian or dwarf, you would tank better than with your gnome. When that is no longer the case, something's broken.


Than, your argument doesn't seem to stand. Ogres are horrific tanks as I've seen. Barb/dwarf have worse dex/agi than any gnome/halfling/grey elf. Barb/dwarf are max 70 naked ac, the other races are 55/62/49, respectively (who cares about humans..they suck as tanks :P but they're 70 nakey too). So in melee, the more agile class should fare better. Ogres suck cuz they just sit there basically, thus the 92 ac naked max. It takes 2 max_agi items just to hit 87base. Hildy is usually always the last to fall in zones I've seen him in. Sure, areas ruin the melee aspect of a warrior, but everybody loves watchin hildy slap the giants around. I'm not gonna bother arguing about the hps anymore. I think I may have overlooked the aspect that an elf w/just ac w/hps would suffice. If melee damage is wanted..bring rogues. I don't know any big halfling warriors. I definitely don't know of big human warriors that are desired :P Doesn't seem anybody likes the 'run of the mill' race as tank.

Gods never reply in threads like this..not sure why. It's frustrating just cuz you feel ignored. There's no closure or fruition to curiosity as why the hp mystery occurs. Other player's speculation usually is just that.

Lastly, the barb/dwarf issue is that they can eat areas and say 'thank you sir, may I have another?' kinda hard to see an elfy doing that :P
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Postby Orku » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:19 pm

Elfs are known for there warriors, neither are gnomes, and halflings. But they have them.

Barbarian and dwarf warriors are more heard of because they are ment to be for battle, tehre bodies are more shaped for battle you could say.
sure there is that occasion elf warrior that stands out cause they are so great, but you never hear about the thousand little ones who don't make it cause Elfs just don't make that good of warriors, same reason why dwarfs don't make good mages(if they could be). I'm ognna stop now.
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Postby Salen » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:16 pm

Elves aren't know for their warriors?(Im assuming a typo here based on the 'Neither are' that followed it) Nice argument.

2 things.

1. There are plenty of examples of elven warriors in all fantasy literature, both D&D based and otherwise. IF you are taking that apporach, you need to read more.

2. If you mean solely in-game... duh. Weight everything against them and you de facto relegate them to non-factors. If the balance is F'd, no people won't play it. It's a self-fulfilling action. You have a board full of people saying no one should play one.


I don't think elves need a big adjustment in hp, maybe 1pt per level. What I do think they (and halflings) need is an adjustment to avoiding damage in other ways. When facing high level mobs, the agi advantage does not make much difference, especially now that melee degrades defenses.

I really don't care, because no matter what the race that is favored (either consciously or sub-consciously) by people making it will always be better; same thing with classes and alignments. It's all been said before, some got changed, some didn't, some didn't need to be.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:51 pm

And in Forgotten Realms (which this game is supposed to be based on, albeit loosely), elves are very well known for their battle prowess, even considered to be, as a race, some of the best fighters known.
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Postby Orku » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:06 pm

When I think about elf warriors, i think ranger. Reason why elf warriors are such good warriors, as you say salen, are becuase they are quick, and more able to avoid blows, and deliever more blows albeit not as more damaging, but more blows. I've read a few FR books, not many but a few. No elfs really stood out to me as great warriors. Now there might be some in the books i haven't read, cause there are plenty of books i haven't read. I see Elf warriors as RP warriors, same as gnomes, and halflings, humans, sure you can get them where they can tank nicely.

Also everyone(well not everyoen but alot of people) what what ever their class or their race to be upgraded, no one wants to be downgraded. People just need to learn to be happy with what they play.
As a Dire Raider, I suck at tanking even with -100 ac, and mounted. I cant do it worth crap, but i understand, i'm not made to be a tank. People need to understand that their is a reason why some races/classes/eq and things get upgraded or downgraded, this is in no way pointed to any direct player. Just stating my opionion.


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Postby Mitharx » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:16 pm

In FR there are intelligent and agile dwarfs. There are weaker and less agile barbarians. There are genius level humans and stupid elves. Any argument about what works in FR never works here because we can't really judge who should get what according to skill/personal intelligence unless we had a got following us around.

I mean, if we all had our way we'd all have great forgotten realms heros. Every ranger would be dancing around killing 50 million giants at once (not to mention solo dragons). People would die never to return unless they escape from hell in an exceptionally lame way. The lichs may come together in an uneasy union and throw billions of undead corpses at waterdeep at once in an attempt to seize power or perhaps we would even be able to group with evils.

It's like with illusionists getting blind. Make perfect sense in FR, not here.

So we go for generalities. Elves are generally weaker/frailer, so they generally get low hps.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:19 pm

that agi notch is pretty important imho. Watch Hylae and Hildibble tank DS. Gnomes just have one agi notch less than elves but get 2 con notches. Might I add that drow get one notch of con above grey elves but have no 101-104 maxcon notch.

In the end, I'd pick elven warrior (outside of spob b/c eq matters) over any other just b/c of the agility, they're easy to make fun of, and int (against psi attacks)
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