Illusionist - A spell that they are missing

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Illusionist - A spell that they are missing

Postby Joth » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:09 pm

A number of people on the mud, and myself was wondering why out of all the mages that Illusionist don't have powerword blind?

It fits their class both roleplay and functionality wise.

Just wondering how others feel about this, seeing that couple new spells came in for a variety classes, and you would think an illusionist would get power word blind before an elementalist P-).

Finally I was wondering if other had ideas for what the spell doppleganger could do. A number of people state that it should have the same hit and damage as the person doppled.

Illusionist is a nice and balance class, I just think, as do many others on the mud that they should have power blind. As to the dopple ganger issue that can be something for debate.
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Postby Dizzin » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:24 pm

1. Power word blind for illusionists would be WAAAAAAAAY too powerful.

2. I agree that doppleganger could use an upgrade so that it does.. well, something. Think there was something suggested for it in a thread way back that made a lot of sense. I personally cant think of a way to make it useful enough to be used and not be more of a pain than it's worth though.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:29 pm

isn't illusionist the only class to !fail stun already?
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Postby chandigar » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:39 pm

Have to agree, illusionists don't need pwb, that'd just be too much.

Dopple, though, really does need to do *something*. Last I checked, I (as a mage with like 3/1 hit/dam) was doing 'gasp in pain' damage and my dopple was still 'barely hitting' when the mob was almost dead.

Also, dopple dies way too easily to use in zones anyway, any area spell kills them and they can't hit anything with fireshield.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:10 pm

this is coming from the guy who wanted area silence person :P
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:20 am

better watch it or some crazy invoker will not only want sandstorm put back in for 10th invoker, but the side effect being silence/blind :P omg, that'd rule *J/K*..but damn, would that rule
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Postby Zoldren » Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:57 am

right now dopples are good for 1 thing, eating areas and saving party members,.

but being how u have to cast it 1 x at a time, its useless, being u cant mem 15 of them.

spell ancient doppleganger group dop spell,

givem more hp, dont make them pets mind you. just let them live if they git hit by hitall or something small.

group dopple would be enough though
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Postby Ulnd/Folrath » Mon Oct 20, 2003 12:03 pm

I too think illusionists should have the blind spell. Granted it's not neccesary as we can change self and mislead. However, I fail to see why it would be so overpowering. In what way? I can't see how illusionist can use the power word blind spell any more effectively than an elementalist. Perhaps I am short-sighted, but whatever. Please explain to me how an illusionist is more dangerous with the power word blind spell than an ele, thus becomming unbalanced. I see the spell mostly as a time saver, or perhaps a way to destroy aggro mobs a little quicker. I know I'm not alone, unite illusionists! :P

Oh and illusionist don't have !fail stuns, and tunderblast is pretty well as good as nightmare in seelie anyways. Spook is the best single target stun spell in the game though.
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Oct 20, 2003 12:21 pm

We all like to see upgrades happen to the classes we play. But there are times when you have to admit your class is powerful enough as it is and step away. This is one of those times. A fully powered illusionist is massively powerful. Phantasmal Tendrils is perhaps the coolest spell ever put into the game. And it was all for us illusionists.

Be happy that we're the only class that lowers MR of mobs, stuns with regularity(though I swear lately spook's stun rate has been lowered noticeably *cough*), and have the most powerful defensive spell in the game. Yes, I'd put displace even ahead of dragonscales. We do very good damage, and have unrivaled scouting powers amongst any class but rogues.

Illusionists dont NEED any more, sure we'd all LIKE to have pwb so we could roam around soloing masses of mobs with impunity. But in this game of balance, in order to gain pwb, we'd have to lose something, and I like our spell list as it is. Now all you people crying for illusionist upgrades HUSH up before the staff take a real good look at them and realize just how powerful they are. :P
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Postby Joth » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:39 pm

Well I read all the comments here. I do have to agree illusionist are balance as is and don't need a major upgrade. This is more of a tweak. Main thing I and others were looking at are: Elementalist, Enchanter, have power word blind, and even invoker has a blind attempt with blazing beam. It is just odd that an ILLUSIONIST CLASS, is unable to effect another person's preception, by not letting them see at all, right?

Someone also mention about putting the actually normal blind spell in their 3rd circle; however I think power word blind, is more mage like, and would fit the class, and it would be in the seventh circle, or an area blinding spell. As to dopple-ganger who knows, some good suggestion are out their though.
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Postby Dezzex » Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:25 pm

I think you guys just don't realize how powerful blinding ability is. As an enchanter, my soloing ability sums up to just this: the ability to blind. The fact that I can dragonscale myself just means I'm able to attempt blinds without dying immediately.

The only weakness of the illusionist is solo versus mass number of mobs. You give them blind and that weakness is diminished immensely. With their great damage, they can easily take down most mobs within the 5 minute time span. I won't even begin to name all the things an illusionist could solo with pwb; but its addition would most definitely not be just a tweak.

You may be right from an RP-perspective (which seems to be where you're coming from) but the gameplay aspect makes it unreasonable in practice.
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Postby Joth » Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:33 pm

I do realize how powerful the pwb is. And yes I am look at it from both an RP and game-play perspective. I believe the RP reasons and the name of the class should have that ability. It seems people are more concern about their soloing ability for some reason. If they had the spell pwb, they would still not be able to handle the mobs that an Enchanter (I can see this being argued), or moreover an Elementalist can handle (No arguement). It would increase their soloing ability but not the the extent of the two classes mention.

And again I just find it wierd, that if someone who didn't play the game and look at the spell list of the classes and saw that an Elementalist, Enchanter, and Invoker can blind; but the class name Illusionist, cannot? It is just plain odd.

So the whole "soloing" worry shouldn't be an issue, because it might even bring them more inline with Elementalist, and Enchanters. And one might even go further, and say illusionist should probably have a better longer last blind then any class in the game, and more importantly "it fits the class". I would find it hard for someone to say that it doesn't fit the class.

To state that is unreasonable, interesting, because I still do not see them soloing mobs that an elementalist could solo with pwb. I think it would be very similiar to an enchanter, but being able to kill the mob a minute or two faster. Should that matter? Should/Would illlusionist be able to the the same as on Elementalist? Would it matter matter that an illusionist solo better then an Enchanter? The answer is too both questions is NO :-)!

The game is more group orient, and a class that called an illusionist have a function of blinding, plain and simple.

Finally this is more of a role aspect in grouping, besides having the ability to stun the mobs, they should also have the primary ability on focusing on blinding mobs.
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Postby Branthur » Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:11 pm

Joth,

Clerics do not get group heal.

Nuff said.
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Postby Bilraex » Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:30 pm

there is only one answer you should know, pwb for illus will increase your solo ability even if it is slight, it doesnt matter the staff hates soloing.
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:24 pm

This reminds me very much of the argument for Lichs getting relo/gate. So I'll sum up the points of that argument:

1. The staff hates soloability and every other person who plays a mentalist would agree with the staff.

2. What makes sense in RP just doesn't make sense on the mud for balance issues.

3. How do you know what you could/couldn't do with blind. It could make you completely over powered. So better than to give it a try or suggest otherwise, just assume it would.

4. Grouping is good.

5. Nearly any upgrade to a class will make them overpowered. If you suggest one, it probably just means you not playing the class to its full potential (that's not attacking you, just summaries of the posts about changing classes in general).

6. Walking is good. (This doesn't fit in this conversation, but it was in the other posts)
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Postby Todrael » Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:32 pm

Someone's bitter.
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:34 pm

Nah. I never actually walk anywhere. I was being funny. But I do stand behind most of those points. BTW: If I really hated walking I stop making melee class chars:P
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Postby thanuk » Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:56 pm

When I dont want to walk i just get my lich friend to relocate to me and gate me up to smoke. Oh my bad Todrael:)
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Postby Izisayyin » Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:05 pm

It comes down to one simple thing guys, one class can't have everything.

Elementalists get a pet to tank, pwb, stone, and then (in my opinion) really crappy offense.

Invokers get great offense, but lack any means to protect themselves

Enchanters get every means of protecting themselves, but have no tank and their offense is even largely defensive.

Illusionists get every means of travel you can imagine, the ability to disguise themselves, pets, defensive spells, and great offense to boot.

If any of these classes has the right to complain they should get more stuff, I think Illusionists are last on the list.
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:47 am

This might be getting off track but I must contest again that the increase in soloability would not be slight, and would definitely not be on par with an enchanter. Any single mob is utterly doomed facing an illusionist. When I pair up with Ssissu, any single mob and most multi-mob fights are doomed. Providing pwb essentially combines all enchanter soloability with the illusionist's existing powers.

I'll agree however that there is no huge issue if another class still exceeds in solo capability after the upgrade. But in this case that other class is the elementalist, and everybody knows they're broken, so no comparision should be had. :P We would just end up with 2 broken classes.

Besides, displace is already superior to dragonscales in any twink situations, and even in many zone situations. I'm scared of losing my job. :P
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Postby Dizzin » Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:01 am

Yep. Dezz said it all perfectly.

Like I said earlier, you people just hush up about illusionist upgrades before the staff take a real hard look at them. Geezus.
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Postby Yarash » Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:08 am

If illusionists think tblast is about as good as nightmare, I would like to have our tblast code and your nightmare code swapped :) Oh please oh please oh please!

I'm a big fan of blazing beam, but I should point out that the duration is quite low. If you just want blind for RP purposes, you may wish to ask for a spell that is a copy of blazing beam but without the damage. It only lasts about a minute, two tops, so you can't really do any twinking with it. Power word blind, on the other hand, is indeed powerful, as the duration is decent and can be permanent.

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Postby Joth » Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:34 pm

Baaah,

I give up P-), and I will concede to the people against the idea about illusionist getting a blinding type of spell be it normal blind in 3rd circle, or PWB, or an area blind. I am not exactly sure if they think it is a bad idea for the class to get, and yes it is true the illusionist class doesn't "need" to be upgraded/change like some other classes (rangers). However thought it should be something the class should have since they are an "illusionist", but the thread took another track :-).

As to elementalist I think their all their abilities are fine; however if you were to take away PWB it would bring them in line with the other mage classes for soloing ability probably, and group role.
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:41 pm

8)

Actually, in 3.5 DnD, they changed the blind spell to necromancy, so obviously it should now go to necromancers and liches!
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Postby Dalar » Sat Oct 25, 2003 2:40 pm

then again, evils didn't _need_ wormhole so let's just give illusionists blind anyways
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ulnd/Folrath » Sat Oct 25, 2003 9:43 pm

I think if illusionists were so powerfull, you'd see a lot more on :P. Yes, we can solo a lot of stuff, unless the mob is a healer that is. Even though I still don't think it'd be that overpowering, if you are all against having it than fine :P. However, we should at least have mirror be eating bash and kick. I believe it currently blocks backstab so why not bash? I mean if we can't blind our targets than we should at least be able to stop them from bashing :). Besides, I want to rule in arena :P.

PS you'll never convince me displace is better than dragonscales, but it is better than stone :)
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:30 am

8)

Phantasmal tendrils DOES rule arena, Ulnd =9
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Postby Dizzin » Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:30 am

Illusionists rule everywhere!

Though I agree that mirror images should either eat bashes/kicks/shieldpunches and not lag us/end up with us on our asses, or they shouldn't eat mirror images period. Sick of kicks and shieldpunches hitting my mirrors, yet still lagging me for 1 and 2 round(s) respectively.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:18 pm

Ulnd, lichs must not be very powerful either. After all, you don't see that many of them on at once. OR Perhaps they're just a pain to level and get to the point where they're really powerful AND they're more of a niche class and so often overlooked by some players (not the ones who know how much illuses rule and why you should pretty much never zone without one if avoidable).

Maybe.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:19 pm

Ulnd, lichs must not be very powerful either. After all, you don't see that many of them on at once. OR Perhaps they're just a pain to level and get to the point where they're really powerful AND they're more of a niche class and so often overlooked by some players (not the ones who know how much illuses rule and why you should pretty much never zone without one if avoidable).

Maybe.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:58 pm

Branthur wrote:Joth,

Clerics do not get group heal.

Nuff said.


Am I the only one who found this hilarious?

Anyhow, Joth, having PWB would probably mean they could solo not "a few minutes" faster than enchanters, but rather an order of magnitude faster. Don't forget that enchanters don't get stun spells.

All of this is secondary to what the imms want, I suppose, so it's a bit of a moot point.
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Postby Ulnd/Folrath » Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:11 pm

Mitharx, while I agree there are very few liches on, I'd have to say I see a lot of necro's around. Mostly level 1-30 ones on for sure. I think my argument still stands! If illusionist ended up so uberly-powerfull, there would be a lot more on, like elementalists. Or perhaps the brutal difficulty in leveling up an illusionist to 31 detracts most people. I mean, how many of us remember having shadow bolt as out best damage spell for what seemed like forever. How many times have YOU asked an illusionist to exp with you :P? After 33 or so it's peachy, but I don't think I would have made it that far if the illusionist was my first character(I'm weak). Anyways, let me see if I can make a point here. Oh yes, illusionist deserve blind for getting to level 33 using only shadow bolts and 25 hp shades! :)

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