Equipment Changes

[Dizzin]

As many people are now aware, certain equipment changes went into effect on the old Sojourn3. Many of them went about as expected, but most were .. disappointing, and many were just plain outrageous.

First, I'd like to ask if the staff could please confirm or deny the changes that were set out on the old mud. As it stands, I cant believe about 1/2 of the changes. So I must cling to the hope that we are just being messed with.

So I'll save the criticism for after a confirmation of these atrocities.

[Caedym]

As many people are now aware, certain equipment changes went into effect on the old Sojourn3. Many of them went about as expected, but most were .. disappointing, and many were just plain outrageous.

Hey give us some examples, I don't know about this at all. I'm very interested in what was done.

-Caedym Shadowhock

[Corth]

I think most people agree that EQ quality needs to have some sort of relationship with the difficulty of obtaining it. Where Dugmaren and myself disagree is the means of doing so. Dugmaren's system attempts to objectively and systematically place a value on the difficulty of obtaining specific items. In my opinion, the best way to balance eq is to continue evaluating each particular item and zone in an ad-hoc and subjective basis, but also to be more dilligent about doing it right.

That being said, I think we should reserve judgment until we see the totality of the changes as they are actually implemented. I'm sure that some imbalances will arise from the eq changes, and I'm sure much tweaking will result. Perhaps Dugmaren's system would work well as a good starting point, not as an end itself.

Keeping a backup of the old eq stats, however, would be a very good idea. The gods should understand that a lot of time spent on the project doesn't justify keeping it if it doesn't work. Lets give it a chance, but not feel compelled to stick with it if it fails.

Corth

[Dizzin]

Okies, I'm gonna post a list of some of the more abominable changes, just in case the staff have an agreement to not log on to the old mud or some such. And if these changes are incorrect, as I'm SURE they must be, then I can go back to waiting breathlessly on the REAL changes to occur on the REAL mud.

Compare:
Conquest armor - ac20 2dam 12 hp
Musp. scalemail - ac25 2dam 7 hp pfg

Conquest armor is like 10 times the quest.

Compare:
Brain Medallion - 12 hp
Darkstone - 15hp

Crypts is a 20 min zone with low spank potential. Brain Medallion is a rare quest in a 2+hour zone with decent spank potential.

Compare:
Elaborate Dscale robes - ac10 25hp 2MR pff pfa pfc
Loki ringmail - 30hp
Musp quest robes - 35 hp 9str pfl
Smoke invasion robes - 30 hp 2MR

How Dscale robes ARENT superior to the rest I dont know.

Compare:
Marble bracer of defence - ac12 20 hp -5sv_para
Silver band - ac10 16 hp -2sv_petri

Marble bracer is barely a rare and superior to a pain quest, regardless of how well the quest is known.

Compare:
Grey-green bracers - ac2 1hit/2dam
Verm sleeves - ac10 1hit/1dam proc haste 1/2 day

Uhh, do I even need to comment on this one? :P

Compare:
BC cloak - 40 hp -4sv_pet
Mantle of knowledge - 45 hp 13 wis
Polka - 33 hp
Snake Cloak - 27 hp

The very fact the BC eq got DOWNgraded is laughable.

Compare:
supple chainmail(from BC) - ac20 1/2
TF platemail - ac15 1/2

Tf platemail can take a 4 man group 20 mins to get. If they're slow.

Compare:
fingerless gloves - ac5 19 hp pfc
Reflective gloves - ac0 20 hp pfc

Reflective gloves are a pain quest and hard to get quest item. Fingerless are a barely rare.

Compare:
Frost warlord crown - ac12 3 dam pfc pfl
Conquest helm - ac8 2dam 8 hp

Conquest helm expensive quest. Crown again a barely rare.

Compare:
Orb of might - 25 hp 2max_int
Cloud giant orb - 24 hp 3max_int
Smoke invasion orb - 24hp 3max_wis

Orb of might is about 10 mins inside one of the wussier zones in the game.

Compare:
Basilisk leggings - ac7 10 hp -4sv_pet, stone proc
Gretwehrr leggings - ac6 11 hp -2sv_para

Gretwehrr leggings have more hp than basilisks.

And then, my personal favorite:
Jot skull earring - 2dam -3sv_spell


So surely these are a cruel joke played upon us. Surely these aren't actually what's intended to be put into action within the week here on TorilMUD. Surely, you jest.

Now I dont have everything in the MUD to id of course. I'm especially lacking on stats of some Musp invasion and SPOB eq, so I cannot make an analysis of those items unfortunately. So this is just a few of the more unbelievable changes that I personally came across.

And I agree with Corth, that it would be better to wait on the changes to actually happen to the real mud before spazzing. But I feel that, if these are indeed the changes intended, and from all reports they are, than a pre-emptive strike of utter outrage must be used, whether to send the areas staff back to the drawing board, or to just think over some of the eq individually.

Of course, if all the eq stats I just stated are completely false and nowhere near what is meant to be put into play on TorilMUD, than please, tell me off and I can go back to happily waiting.

Thanks.

[Thilindel]

What I fail to grasp is why the need to do anything to 'most' of the eq? When a zone is OK'd it has to be scrutinized by the big bossmen/women. .. I just don't see why things are going this way? Is this the compromise to no pwipe, but making things harder? The prospect on a lot of the eq I saw, spec wise, is rather ..well hell, it downright sucks. I sure hope they aren't mostly a 20% loss or more as most the eq's hack seems.

[Tanji Smanji]

Yeah, I find it funny that tanari gloves now are ac 10 +3 dam prot cold/evil. What does ac 10 +3 dam remind you of? Melee gear got romped, heh.

[Savras]

None of those posted stats are currently in the game.

[Ranor]

I have to agree with Dizzin, now that we've had a couple days to fully identify 90% of the equip on Sojourn I see very little change in equip balance. All the changes did was swap balance problems from one zone to another... I'm hoping to god the ET equip isn't considered balanced (if an ET orb remains better than a smoke invasion one something is wrong with the system). I realize the changes may not be complete on Sojourn or even what gets implemented in Toril but someone spent a lot of time to change every piece of equip in the game so I'm going to assume it is.

[Jhorr]

And thank the good Lord for that. I know Dug worked hard on the project, and for ALL THE RIGHT REASONS, but surely there is a better way to make the game more challenging then by jeopardizing the morale of the game's most loyal fans?

Sweeping downgrades of EQ won't significantly affect a group's zoning performance, imo. SPOB already demonstrates this fact. So why weaken the players' coveted stats? Limiting the range of stats for given slots limits the diversity of EQ. In the long term, this is a problem for an ever-expanding MUD. Eventually, items will become redundant, if not irrelevant, and whole zones will be ignored by the players. Why limit what the items can do? Expand the potential.

If you want to make players weaker, focus on skills, spells, and saving throws instead. Improve mob AI (easier said then done, I'm sure). Utilize alignment for intergroup hostility, but not pkill. Make the game more dynamic. Dare I say it, be more creative. That's how we'll compete and draw in more people to increase the player base. Not by making the players weak.

Didn't mean for this to become a diatribe. Just my thoughts, thanks for reading.

[irta]

I have to agree with Dizzin, now that we've had a couple days to fully identify 90% of the equip on Sojourn I see very little change in equip balance. All the changes did was swap balance problems from one zone to another... I'm hoping to god the ET equip isn't considered balanced (if an ET orb remains better than a smoke invasion one something is wrong with the system). I realize the changes may not be complete on Sojourn or even what gets implemented in Toril but someone spent a lot of time to change every piece of equip in the game so I'm going to assume it is.

It's hard to compare individual pieces most of the time. Perhaps smoke invasion orb needed to get whacked in order to keep magi robe decent. Not sure this is the case, but would like to see for example how the complete set of smoke invasion eq compares to the complete set of ET equipment.

the Irta

[Tanji Smanji]

I have to agree with Dizzin, now that we've had a couple days to fully identify 90% of the equip on Sojourn I see very little change in equip balance. All the changes did was swap balance problems from one zone to another... I'm hoping to god the ET equip isn't considered balanced (if an ET orb remains better than a smoke invasion one something is wrong with the system). I realize the changes may not be complete on Sojourn or even what gets implemented in Toril but someone spent a lot of time to change every piece of equip in the game so I'm going to assume it is.

It's hard to compare individual pieces most of the time. Perhaps smoke invasion orb needed to get whacked in order to keep magi robe decent. Not sure this is the case, but would like to see for example how the complete set of smoke invasion eq compares to the complete set of ET equipment.

the Irta

Uhhhhhhhhhh..........Someone else take a shot at this one. The obvious hit me in the head and injured me.

[Dalar]

congratulations! i bet miax just got a bunch of people to log onto soj3 for nothing. i bet miax just tried to punch toril in the gut by posting some fake stats. some zones were never touched. common items took a retarded hit. i'll believe these stats when I see them go live. until then, afk

[kiryan]

i intensely dislike what i saw in Dizzin's post.

couple of comments:

1. instead of pwiping, just set all existing eq to ac 0 0/0 0 hps (sarcasm)

2. instead of fuxoring up all the hard work some people have put in to acquire eq, leave it the same and adjust your "knobs" to compensate for the escalation in eq stats.

3. figure out how these unbalanced F*d up eq got impd.
my favorite: ac 30 42 hps 5 max con PFF PFC armor.

[S3Erevan]

congratulations! i bet miax just got a bunch of people to log onto soj3 for nothing. i bet miax just tried to punch toril in the gut by posting some fake stats. some zones were never touched. common items took a retarded hit. i'll believe these stats when I see them go live. until then, afk

Sorry Dartan, but you'll have to find something else to be suspicious about. Those were the equip stat changes as of the time of the split, which to my understanding are 99% the same as what TorilMUD is sitting on right now. We really don't have the time nor the desire to try to jerk people around.

Erevan

[kiryan]

so what your saying is those posted stats are more or less correct?

I really think you guys need to do some UAT (user acceptance testing) before imping those changes.

I'd be pretty pissed to find my great set of eq turned into junk while junk (skull earring in particular) gets a phat upgrade.

Should we be hoarding junk eq in hopes it'll get touched by the magic uber stick?

[Shevarash]

I'll echo what Savras said:

None of those posted stats are in TorilMUD at this time.

Your thoughts and comments on those stats are of course welcome here, but it's premature to assume that they are the finalized stats that TorilMUD is using - in fact it will continue to be premature up until the EQ changes go live.

[Yarash]

I think Corth is right; items should be looked at individually without formulas. I'm sure Dugmaren worked his ass off on this, but there are some significant problems with the results.

I will now list a few things that appeared unbalanced, just wrong, or not to my satisfaction.

The buckskin pack has better stats than the pegasus cloak.
buckskin pack 25 moves plus is weightless container (costs about 25 p to quest)
pegasus cloak 20-25 moves I think (pegasus much harder to smite than ic guards, requires 2 rares, costs 500p to quest)
Oh and the 9 dex on the cloak is meaningless because it's a utility item used for travelling. I'd rather lose the 9 dex and get more moves.

The thick glasses from airship are no longer infra. I can't vouch for other people, but this was my infra item. The other stats were meaningless to me. Hell, I'd rather have it lose the detect good/evil and detect magic and just be infra.

I can't see too many people doing the silver bands quest if the change is made over on toril. The staff is only useful as a !summon item now, as a 16 hp weapon is far worse than a 25 hp orb. Also the mace of disruption is 15 hp, so if you just need a +hp weapon, there is little reason to get the staff (mace has a proc too). The band is not usable by neutral players anymore, and the stats don't really warrant the trouble of getting it. A sylph band (also 16 hp like band) and !summon heartstone are easier to get I think. If this must be messed with, I would change it so players could quest it in such a way so they could choose one of the two items, and they would both have good stats.

My biggest beef is with the diamond tiara. I worked my butt off getting mine, and have watched others simply give up due to the difficulty/pain of acquiring it. It is just 20 hp now with no other stats. It's also a rare. Finding an elf tank for the fight is rare too :O. The oakvale circlet is 20 hp, pfc, -4 sb. I think I got my circlet as a 2nds bid heh. I think the formula must not bring everything into account, such as having to build an all-elf group, average classes played by elves, average number of elves on at any given time, etc.

amy ring 60 hp
eldritch 59 hp -9 str
elemental ring 55 hp
oakvale ring 54 hp
I guess I don't understand why eldritch is still -9 str. Otherwise there is little reason to get the ring anymore.

sky metal 14
et earth earring 14
spob mage earring 12-13 hp I think
gith invasion earring 12
Conclusion: The spob mage earring is not worth using by most mages.

This was covered already, but the orb of might (25 hp) is better than the orb of power (less than 25 hp). I just don't understand this. You take an orb of might, another orb, a rare item, find a rare quest mob, and come out with an item that is worse than one of the components needed to get it?

Also noteworthy, kerns spellbook lost its stats (+maxint and -ss). As nobody holds the book under most situations, the stats were rarely utilized, but made the book cool. I used the maxint during maxint tests. The stats, imo, helped balance out that it was 3 lb more than most other books, and burnable as opposed to easier to get !burn books. As an invoker, the easy to get airship spellbook is now better than the difficult to get kerns book, which requires many difficult rares.

- Mike

[Lilithelle]

Eq stats needed fixing, some items were out of whack. eldritch ring for example is way too easy for an item with that many hps. I have 2 characters that have prot all and prot all except lightning, and about +600 hps in eq each. As well as having perm sense life on both. I think that is excessive. It makes the con of the race you pick meaningless for example, races are balanced stat wise for the most part. elves have low con/str, but great agi/dex/int. But who cares about con when you can get that many hps due to eq. My elven mage is 831 hps, thats pretty crazy. Over 1000 hps vitted. Whats with elven mages having more hps than alot of tanks?! Not that its not nice ;)

Just looks to me that quest items got downed a bit too much for the difficulty involved, and maybe some of the values of in his system could be tweaked. Like how many points hps cost compaired to prots, or how he decided to keep prots but reduce hps to get the item cost right. I wouldn't wear 15 hp prot all on body for example over 30 hp on body, i'd rather try to get the prots from other slots like earrings.

Dugmaren worked hard on this system though, I'm not going to criticize it heavily. Lets see how it shakes out, and maybe there will be some changes along the way. And if not, its a game, its supposed to be fun. You should enjoy gathering eq, if what I'm wearing becomes junk I'll have fun getting new stuff.
Lil

[Dizzin]

I dont think anyone here was criticizing the fact that +hitpoint eq in general could use downing. However, the way in which it was done seems.. questionable. As it stands, the comparison of many of the items just boggles the mind. And talking to most people, if the changes went in as they are currently on the other mud, there'd be a mass exodus from Toril.

However, I'm glad to see that the staff are looking into this now. It certainly seems to need it.

[irta]

I think Corth is right; items should be looked at individually without formulas. I'm sure Dugmaren worked his ass off on this, but there are some significant problems with the results.

I can't see too many people doing the silver bands quest if the change is made over on toril. The staff is only useful as a !summon item now, as a 16 hp weapon is far worse than a 25 hp orb. Also the mace of disruption is 15 hp, so if you just need a +hp weapon, there is little reason to get the staff (mace has a proc too). The band is not usable by neutral players anymore, and the stats don't really warrant the trouble of getting it. A sylph band (also 16 hp like band) and !summon heartstone are easier to get I think. If this must be messed with, I would change it so players could quest it in such a way so they could choose one of the two items, and they would both have good stats.

My biggest beef is with the diamond tiara. I worked my butt off getting mine, and have watched others simply give up due to the difficulty/pain of acquiring it. It is just 20 hp now with no other stats. It's also a rare. Finding an elf tank for the fight is rare too :O. The oakvale circlet is 20 hp, pfc, -4 sb. I think I got my circlet as a 2nds bid heh. I think the formula must not bring everything into account, such as having to build an all-elf group, average classes played by elves, average number of elves on at any given time, etc.
This was covered already, but the orb of might (25 hp) is better than the orb of power (less than 25 hp). I just don't understand this. You take an orb of might, another orb, a rare item, find a rare quest mob, and come out with an item that is worse than one of the components needed to get it?

Also noteworthy, kerns spellbook lost its stats (+maxint and -ss). As nobody holds the book under most situations, the stats were rarely utilized, but made the book cool. I used the maxint during maxint tests. The stats, imo, helped balance out that it was 3 lb more than most other books, and burnable as opposed to easier to get !burn books. As an invoker, the easy to get airship spellbook is now better than the difficult to get kerns book, which requires many difficult rares.

- Mike

Just some thoughts,

I have no problem with the formulatic approach (although like suggested in the post, it needs to be a complicated formula that includes such factors as gathering an all-elf group).

Quest items in particular do seem to be particularly off, but these are probably the hardest thing for the system to accurately assess, so these probably worth another "look over" by the imms.

In the case of the kern's spellbook probably lost it's stats so that the other kern item's would have enough points not to be dged as bad. Understandable imo. Hopefully new high-end spellbooks will pop up in the future.

the Irta

P.S. For the purpose of this thread, I'm going by the assumption that the eq changes are right. Irrespective, I hope the changes go in very soon (as in now) so that people can start making the hard decisions and FUD will be put to rest. If things might get adjusted again later, fine, say that but but in the changes.

[Ranor]

Guess I'm the only one who noticed that Silver bands are now flagged evil only. (In the current version of changes)

[Yayaril]

8)

Silver bands should have always been evil only. All the equipment changes barely measure up to what I call the worst travesty of them all: the driftwood staff comes with 1 less charge than it did before!

[Ebgar]

Format:
Place Worn
Name
MiaxMud Stats
Torilmud.org Stats

HEAD:
the ancient crown of thunderous divinity
ac15, +40hp, +7hit, FARSEE SENSE-LIFE INFRA DET-EVIL DET-GOOD
ac15, +40hp, +7hit, FARSEE SENSE-LIFE INFRA DET-EVIL DET-GOOD

EYES:
a purple silk eyepatch
ac2 -2sv_spell +8hps !GOOD
ac2 -4sv_spell +15hps

Ears:
a tiny rosewood disc
ac0 +15hps +2max_wis !EVIL !WARRIOR !THIEF !MAGE
ac0 +15hps +9wis !EVIL !WARRIOR !THIEF !MAGE

FACE:
a glittering golden mask
ac8 +10hps +5max_wis !WARRIOR !THIEF !MAGE
ac8 +10hps +5max_wis !WARRIOR !THIEF !MAGE

NECK:
a malevolent darkstone amulet
ac5 +15hps !WARRIOR
ac5 +20hps !WARRIOR

ON BODY:
elaborate dragonscale robes
ac10 +25hps +2MR Prot-Acid Prot-Cold Prot-Fire !WARRIOR !THIEF !ORC
!HUMAN !BARB !TROLL !OGRE
ac10 +40hps +3MR Prot-ALL !WARRIOR !THIEF !ORC
!HUMAN !BARB !TROLL !OGRE

ABOUT BODY:
the mantle of knowledge
ac0 +45hps +13wis !WARRIOR !THIEF
ac0 +45hps +13wis !WARRIOR !THIEF

WAIST:
a belt encrusted with black sapphires
ac3 +9str +22hps
ac3 +9str +37hps

ARMS:
starsilver chainmail sleeves
ac6 +18hps -3sv_spell !WARRIOR
ac9 +27hps -4sv_spell !WARRIOR

WRIST:
an arm band of the sylphs
ac0 +16hps -3sv_breath !WARRIOR !THIEF
ac0 +25hps -2sv_spell !WARRIOR !THIEF

HANDS:
a pair of taut ogrehide gloves
ac7 +14hps
ac7 +14hps

FINGERS:
a ring of eldritch fire
ac0 +59hps -9str !WARRIOR !THIEF
ac0 +75hps -9str !WARRIOR !THIEF

LEGS:
taut leggings of flayed fire giant skin
ac5 +12hps -2sv_breath
ac7 +15hps -2sv_breath

FEET:
a pair of boots embroidered with a falcon
ac7 +15hps -3sv_spell !WARRIOR !THIEF
ac7 +20hps -4sv_spell !WARRIOR !THIEF

Heh..

[old depok]

I understand that we have not seen the changes imp'd here and that we are all guessing right now but I wanted to comment on these changes in general.

It was my understanding that the intent of the changes originally was to address two issues:

1. Making room for EQ in new zones to be better than the eq in old easier to do zones.

2. Trying to help balance melee vs casters.

I can see where the first goal is accomplished here though I agree some of the results need balancing when compared to each other. What I don't see is how this addresses the second goal. I admit that I have not seen a full set of rogue EQ posted with stats of items before or after the changes but from the little I have seen I have not seen a real upgrade in the hit dam of the items as a whole.

From the changes I have seen there will be no change in the melee vs casting side of things. What I do see is that healing will become more important than ever as everyone takes a hp hit. This will force groups to take more shaman and/or clerics which will further eliminate spots for Rangers, rogues, anti's and pali's.

A good example of this was last night. We did seelie with two clerics and one shaman. We brought a ranger with us. We had 0 deaths. With the new eq changes we would have had to have brought another shaman which would have left the Ranger out of the group.

Now, if these changes included a decent increase in hit/dam then we might have brought the ranger instead of one of the invokers. Maybe.

[Cyric]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you people survive in your real lives? I mean really? This would be funny if it wasn't so sad. For the sake of preventing mass suicide, homicide, genocide, and mayhem (although that's my particular FR persona's MO come to think of it) here are a few comments:

1. Neither Miax nor anyone else from his side of the house are trying to punch anyone in the gut, undermine our progress, scoop us, or anything else for that matter...yeesh.

2. No equipment changes were made on S3 for the month prior to our split...specifically NONE of the proposed object changes have come in for a few reasons:

-changes not all done yet, and we want to bring them in all at once
-changes not entirely all approved yet...this is a big deal and we want to try to get it right
-code doesn't support it...when an object is flagged secret, for instance, and you go and change that item's stats, all existing items in the game stay the same, and only new ones end up changed...it's a weird code bugerboo that has to be fixed before we make these sweeping changes

3. The game's equipment is currently unbalanced. We can take the approach of leaving it like it is, or changing only new zones that will come into the game henceforth, but you guys all realize that there has been an inflation of equipment over the years...Every area maker wants their zone to be THE zone, so they stack it with items. Yes, we have a review process, but nobody's perfect, and that means that over the past 10 years some stuff has gotten out of whack...some good zones are no longer visited, some crappy zones get overvisited.

4. Dugmaren's system is the best we could come up with short of hiring a consulting firm. It isn't perfect, but it's very very very good and very very very fair.

5. The system has en equal number of upgrades vs downgrades, so saying that we're just downgrading stuff is a bit loopy.

6. No matter WHAT we do, we're going to piss people off...if someone's +3 flower of excitement turns into a +2 flower or protection, somebody is going to lose their mind...we all know this. The question I've had to ask is: is it worth it to balance the mud? And I think the answer is yes...it'll be a bump in the road for many, and many people will have to "re-do" equipment, but so what? Isn't that why you're here? Doesn't this give you a chance to do new and different zones? Re-equip yourself? Or find that you've got better equipment than you thought?

7. I've also heard rumor that this is intended to make the objects from Dugmaren's zones better than anyone else's. Whoever started this needs to try Prozac...actually Paxil's probably a better choice...helps with mood stabilization, anxiety, paranoia, and delusions.

8. And that's all I have to say for now...none of us are going to respond further on this thread because there's nothing else to say other than "wait and see, assume we've got the game's best interest in mind, and we're not evil, vindictive, petty, narrow-minded gits."

Thank you and please drive through.

[Cyric]

Oh, and for the record, please don't post item stats...you're taking silver out of the hands of some mage that makes a living identifying items. This has been our policy since S2.

[Corth]

The only person who seems to be getting overly-excited, Cyric, is you...

[Cyric]

Haven't taken my Ritalin yet this morning, thanks for pointing it out...sheesh...

[rylan]

Everyone needs to just chill until the changes come in here. Then we all can resume bitching :P

[Dizzin]

Cyric wrote:
2. Object upgrades: All object upgrades complete, awaiting code patch to make the changes actually work for everyone. Goal
is to have this in by Halloween.

Cyric wrote:
-changes not all done yet, and we want to bring them in all at once
-changes not entirely all approved yet...this is a big deal and we want to try to get it right

Heh. Well my bad! Here I thought the eq changes had been done for 6 weeks before the change to TorilMUD. Wonder why I'd thought that...

Regardless, my apologies for posting stats, but it got its required effect.

Thanky.

[icecillam]

Opinion from the unique portion of Torilmud.

On torilmud currently I sacrifice a sizable chunk of possible + hp eq to get + psp eq. This gives me a relativly sizable chunk of psp eq. Ie its worth sacrificing survivability.

This worth of sacrifice isn't reflected in the code of I believe 9/1. As this is not the final code, but a slight progression/possib glitched, feel free to mmail/message me if you would like some opinions.

Icecillam - all numbers withheld.

[Zoldren]

just my opinion warning:

balance is not in eq its in the skills/spells

how many hitters do you know that have 30/30 30/40/20/40 whatever, and how many have the exact same eq? some the same yes all no, same with mages,

some eq your forced to wear for survivablity but rest is style/preference. example, i know a few people who refuse to wear eldriches because of the str, me being one. i dont wear hp on neck or wrist and i am about 600 hp, yet i never have a problem as my mages.

like someone pointed out, SPOOB. throws out any eq balance issues.

I am NOT saying that its balanced as far as hardvs easy to get vs reward.

Just saying gameplay is fine eq wise. balance is in skills.spells.

PS> with sequester in, can we have !sum back on the items it was taken out of ? :P

[Todrael]

The equipment stats as they are shown on MiaxMUD are not balanced. Not in any way, shape, or form. I am currently assuming that all comparisons provided by that mud are incorrect. I will not believe that such things could be put into place.

[thanuk]

The eq changes were done with a formula. The same formula was applied to every friggin item in the game. Well no shit! A few of them are out of whack! OMG not instantly perfect! ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE!

Standing there shouting robble robble robble isn't going to help any you know...

"But nukie we dont know what else to do!"

You all need to just reach up under your skirts, grab your balls and pull them back down.

Everyone's eq is getting downgraded, not just yours. Sure theres bound to be weirdness, like dragonscale robes not being as good as some other item. But you can't judge based on items alone. You dont know how rare prots are gonna be. You dont know how hard its gonna be to find an infra item. So your 25 hps robe that is lower than the other robe but is prot all could be 100 times better because its impossible to get prot lightning. You dont know yet, so calm down. And even if they are going in that way, so what. Now you have something else to do. I dont understand some people who have the top notch eq on all slots complaining. when was the last time there was an item you needed to go get? You probably dont even remember. Now you have something to go get, and you're bitching about it. Amazing.

[Gura]

yea so nuk now ur sleeves are ugly and they suck. 3nj0y

[thanuk]

yea so nuk now ur sleeves are ugly and they suck. 3nj0y

They sucked to begin with. ac6 is just awesome tank wear let me tell you:)

[Dlur]

Thanuk is ugly and he sucks, but we still like him for some reason.

[thanuk]

Thanuk is ugly and he sucks, but we still like him for some reason.

Your mom is ugly and she sucks, and that's why we like her.

[Yarash]

I would hope that the gods would be interested in knowing about any potential problems prior to putting in the changes. With so many items to go over, there will be mistakes. I don't see how pointing out possible problems is a bad thing.

- Mike

[Jegzed]

Those eq changes are hilarious.

Almost as if someone had gone though changing stats completely on random.

Like all eq from fun zones like Clouds, Avernus & BC got nerfed, as well as all equipment that comes from expensive quests, while items from boring and easy zones like ET and Muspel got boosts.

If I had still played regularly, I'd had quit over the issue of seeing my BC cloak I spent hundreds of hours to get to be reduced to worse than a mantle of knowledge that everyone had 10 on their alts on.

Or seeing silver band get reduced to useless, when you count the insane amount of time spent on trying to gate to the tiny flames zone, when you could have just kept a few nightshades or ivory or charm bracelets instead.

[Sarell]

I find the reconfiguration rather than balance of some items VERY odd...

specifically tanari gloves, changing from 2 2, to 0 3. ... seems just annoying forcing reconfiguration of my hit/dam ratios more so than any sort of balance *shrugs*

[Dizzin]

Since Cyric "pruned" my cut and paste of this in the object changes, I'll just bump this now.

[Teyaha]

wow.

some items got majorly nerfed.

and why the fuck did you make gith gaunts !rogue. y'know, not everyone has elite alts with all the fucking best rogue gear in the game. you just destroyed my only other eq'd character besides my necro. my rogue just lost 8/8 and now cant hit the broad side of a barn.

this justmakes the little guys littler, and the big guys bigger.

i lost 80 hp with m y caster gear. as if my drow elf could take less hp. and i thought hit/dam stuff was getting UPPED with the changes not downed.

[Sylvos]

Shrug, post change and returning borrowed equipment, Sylvos is

+1 dam
Equal hit
+22 AC
Lost 2 svsp
Gained 2 svbr
Lost 16hp
Lost 4 con, but switched 5 con for 5 max_con
No prots changed (still wearing all but pfl)

Ashemiem lost more, hps, +hit and a few saves but otherwise seems mostly unchanged too. Guess it's all in what you've got. (And no, I'm not wearing piles of stuff from the so-called favored zones).

[Delmair Aamoren]

Just my .02 on these eq changes, but the BIGGEST changes that seem to make no sense to me revolve around clouds gear.

For once, it's almost worth it to wear the fugly hat, but the bigger quest items like conquest helm and conquest armor (which are a FAR cry harder to get than either of the two invasion crowns AND are align restricted to boot) are far less spanky. ac8 +8hp +2 dam is nothing compared to frost giant crown now. also, conquest armor, which was barely worth the quest to begin with (even debateable to say that) is now even worse. ac20 +2 dam +12hp is pretty lame for what was supposed to be decent armor.

Also, i hope these changes came with a decent upgrade to melee function, as i lost over 10 damroll overall. This is a 20% downgrade to +damroll... pretty harsh for a form of damage that was miniscule to begin with

Del.

[Gromikazer]

I disagree with the massive amounts of downgrades to hitters. I can understand losing 50-100 hitpoints or a little more, where as hitpoints were out of control, hitters weren't. The mud has for a long time been ruled by casters and spells, with hitters just being a shadow in their strength. More then a few pieces of eq were downgraded by those who didn't know either the entire quest involved, or who did not care to look and examine the situation. The end product are downgrades that make little or no sense, while at the same time allowing many pieces of eq to be beyond stupid. I understand that some zones equipment changes haven't gone in yet. All I can say, is while I was coming back to play over the past two weeks, while no overly abundant, this... blatant disregard for balance is the sort of thing that eases my mind, and convinces me that I am not missing anything. While most of the important and good Imms came to torilmud I can think of at least ONE that is a moron and pretends to know what he is doing and hasn't for a very long time. I'm not going to mention any names though.

I'm not asking that eq be changed back to it was, I'm asking that it be fixed, so it makes sense, rather then haphazard slinging of downgrade mud across everything that can be seen.

[Ashiwi]

Getting it "fixed" was the whole reason they set up a new forum just for equipment changes, wasn't it? It's going to take some time, of course, but with a little patience I'm betting we'll eventually see a decently satisfactory system coming out of all this effort.

[Cyric]

Thank you Ashiwi for the vote of confidence...seems someone actually reads our posts and believes us! We morons appreciate the support.

Locking this thread in favor of the object thread.