Least Powerful Class on Toril?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.

What is the least powerful class on Toril?

Warrior
18
19%
Ranger
33
35%
Rogue
2
2%
Druid
2
2%
Psionicist
0
No votes
Necromancer
1
1%
Invoker
0
No votes
Enchanter
5
5%
Cleric
8
9%
Elementalist
5
5%
Illusionist
1
1%
Paladin
2
2%
Anti-Paladin
2
2%
Dire Raider
7
7%
Shaman
3
3%
Bard/Battlechanter
5
5%
 
Total votes: 94
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Least Powerful Class on Toril?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:46 am

I'm just curious how this turns out. It's pretty easy to predict the overall winner (loser), but I'm still curious to see what other classes make the list.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:44 pm

8)

You forgot to add in an 'Everything seems balanced' option.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:01 pm

Clerics are the least powerful class?

BUWHAAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, they don't have offense, but neither do warriors. Phear full harm.

They're a niche class, but one of the most essential and most important classes around. This by iteslf makes them plenty powerful. You can do any zone without a ranger, many without a rogue, many without an illus, etc. etc. Try without a cleric. Well, okay you can, but it's still much harder AND most zones (worth doing) require a cleric.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:07 pm

Mitharx wrote:Clerics are the least powerful class?



Clerics are one of the least powerful classes. They can't do anything, just like warriors.

On a side note, whoever voted for rogue, and who ever voted for elementalist, you should just self delete.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:21 pm

I guess that lack of lich means that necros are just understood as needing to lich
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Postby rylan » Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:29 pm

I think a defination of what 'most powerful' means would've helped the voting. Do you mean most powerful solo, or most powerful in group? offense? defense?
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Postby Vahok » Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:58 pm

I was looking for the warrior/ranger combo option...
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Postby Gurns » Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:59 pm

rylan wrote:I think a defination of what 'most powerful' means would've helped the voting. Do you mean most powerful solo, or most powerful in group? offense? defense?

Well, of course you get different answers for all of those.

The real balance problem is that some classes rate in the top half of both "most powerful solo" and "most useful in a group", while other classes don't.
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Postby Waelos » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:11 pm

Well Gurns, I'd have to say that those classes that are essential to a group have alot of 'power' and those that are not essential to groups that have enough personal power/ability to solo a large number of things. Each has power.

Then there are those that are completely unnecessary for a group and who can't solo mobs 10 levels below their own. That can't instantly kill or paralyze mobs. That can't summon minions to tank as they nuke. That aren't needed for heals or damage or rescuing or tanking. Those classes have the least power, imho.

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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:08 pm

kiryan wrote:I guess that lack of lich means that necros are just understood as needing to lich


How on earth could a Lich be any less powerful than a Necromancer? If you think Lich is the worst, then you must think that a non-lich necro is better somehow? Otherwise, why would you need to vote for Lich? And why would people Lich? :)
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:10 pm

Gurns wrote:
rylan wrote:I think a defination of what 'most powerful' means would've helped the voting. Do you mean most powerful solo, or most powerful in group? offense? defense?

Well, of course you get different answers for all of those.

The real balance problem is that some classes rate in the top half of both "most powerful solo" and "most useful in a group", while other classes don't.


It doesn't really matter, honestly. It's fair to say at this point, that with 50% of the votes, that Rangers are far and away the most commonly perceived "worst" class. Probably both in solo and groups :)

I dunno, fun little poll. Don't think too much about it. I promise I don't plan to follow it up with a 50 page thesis on how to improve anything.

Oh and Yaya, if you think everything seems balanced, just pick a class at random. Always have to have outliers in any survey.
- Ragorn
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:48 pm

gonna disagree with clerics being wuss. i've seen some clerics solo some hairy stuff.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:50 pm

Gura wrote:gonna disagree with clerics being wuss. i've seen some clerics solo some hairy stuff.


Ok and with all your tiamat eq you soloed the plow dragon. That means warriors are fine?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:59 pm

with my 1 tiamat item sure i solo'd a plow dragon. i bet if u had that muspel epic blade u could too. its a friggin level 35mob who cant hit u and breathes cold for uhoh 50hps a round with some svbreath. man nuk i really do expect better from you.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:12 pm

Honestly I'd say the same to you man. Clerics are one of the most fubared classes on this mud. They have 1 useful skill, that they also give to shamans, druids, bards, potions, both avengers, paladins, elementalists, khanjari daggers, musp swords, a hundred other things. They have 0 offense, melee or spellwise. And they can ress people. And as much as we all love them for giving us our exp back, you can hardly qualify that as a class power, as it turns into more of a chore than anything else, much like a druid with moonwell, its more trouble than its worth most of the time. But you saw a cleric solo something once, so they must be fine. Gimme a break dude.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gromikazer » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:16 pm

I think, you can almost make a list determining which classes need fixing up, by the number of votes they got.


Anyone that got 0% can fug off and sit in the corner while the rest of the classes get fixed up :P

It's interesting to note, that 75% of the "least powerful" votes went towards melee classes. :P
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:19 pm

once? i've seen yssilk solo tons of things that would kick my ass in a heartbeat. wow they dont have a good amount of offense. fullharm only does 300hps of damage. damn nuk it might take u 5 or 6 rounds to do 300hps and they get to heal themselves on top of that. so ur saying a cleric at -100 with an 18 or 20hitroll wielding a smasher with 7 or 800hps couldnt solo better than a warrior? clerics have better offense and defensive capabilities than warriors. i bet you a cleric could solo 90% of the single mobs on this mud faster and more efficiently than you or I could but then again u might have to find a cleric who can play their class well.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:28 pm

Comparing a cleric to a warrior isn't gonna get you anywhere, because they're both messed up. How about you compare them to an elementalist? They can both heal themselves for about 400 hps, although the elementalist has to wait a little longer in between them for the embodiment to fade after you dispel it. The elementalist can blind and silence, just like the cleric. Elementalist can stone himself. Elementalist gets an unlimited supply of pets to tank for him, does exponentially more damage than any cleric. Sure you don't technically need an elementalist for zone groups, but you can do alot more alot faster if your tank is embodied. But you don't really need a cleric either, you can get by with 2 shamans or a shaman and a bard for everything but gatehouse style fights(the same type of fights you're gonna want embody for).

Anyway, if soloing better than a warrior means that your class is fine then nobody needs any upgrades, including rangers. Maybe you should try it without the troll regen sometime and see what its like. Clerics need some lovin too.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:44 pm

wow nuk that was the most thoughtful post proving that elementalists are too powerful. bravo...u repeated something that has been known since they went in. congratz!
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:48 pm

And you just made one of the slickest cop-outs i've ever seen! I guess we both deserve some congratz!
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:58 pm

cop out? sorry if ur post had something constructive other than saying something thats already known maybe i woulda had something to respond to. oh wait. how about u try eating a 800hp cloud then bitch about troll regen.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:15 pm

Gura wrote:cop out? sorry if ur post had something constructive other than saying something thats already known maybe i woulda had something to respond to. oh wait. how about u try eating a 800hp cloud then bitch about troll regen.


Who's bitching about troll regen? I just said try soloing without it.

Anyway, the point is still that clerics are one of the more underpowered classes on the mud. You tried to say they weren't by comparing them to the other underpowered class, so I responded by comparing them to an overpowered class. Got us nowhere. Anyway, if you think clerics are so great then why don't you go play one so I don't have to hear you and the other 3 evils who still log on cry about how they can't do anything cuz there's no clerics on. Then you can laugh when some other troll eats an 800 hps cloud instead of crying because it was you.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:36 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:39 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:49 pm

Just stop bleaching your hair and it will all make sense.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:21 pm

thanuk wrote:And you just made one of the slickest cop-outs i've ever seen! I guess we both deserve some congratz!


thanuk wrote:Just stop bleaching your hair and it will all make sense.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:39 pm

75% of the votes are still for the 6 melee classes out of the 16 up there :) Almost 60% for rangers and warriors :)

As for clerics? If you think you can honestly make an argument that clerics are the MOST underpowered class, then vote cleric. Instead of comparing them to warriors, compare them to rangers. If you don't think clerics are worse than rangers, then don't vote for clerics... the poll is for the MOST underpowered class, not "which class do I think needs an upgrade."
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:45 pm

i voted warriors. surely they are the most underpowered class imo!
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:42 am

Gura wrote:
thanuk wrote:And you just made one of the slickest cop-outs i've ever seen! I guess we both deserve some congratz!


thanuk wrote:Just stop bleaching your hair and it will all make sense.


Well it was either that or write a 2 page post explaining every last detail to you like you were both retards, and i didn't want to do that. But apparently I should've...maybe thats what happened to the evil pbase? You guys all forgot how to work your computers?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gura » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:11 am

ah. i'd rather hear u explain something i already know then hear u whine more about how u suck as a warrior.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:26 am

I can count on one hand the people I'd rather have playing my tank than Thanuk. Soo... let's just stop before we embarass ourselves, eh?
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Postby Gromikazer » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:37 am

Hey.. would I be part of that "one hand"? :P
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Postby Gura » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:18 am

embarass myself? neva...i mean hell i've admitted to being friends with moltok...how much more embarassing can anything be?
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:22 am

Gura wrote:embarass myself? neva...i mean hell i've admitted to being friends with moltok...how much more embarassing can anything be?


I just shifted into scorps. Think Moltok would help?
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Postby Gura » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:25 am

pure pwnage. still hage u arilin
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:33 am

Gura wrote:pure pwnage. still hage u arilin


It's ok. I despise you too.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:12 am

Gromikazer wrote:Hey.. would I be part of that "one hand"? :P


No, Galok. You are ONLY a shaman. That is all.
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Postby rylan » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:06 pm

Whoever voted for elementalist, illus and chanter is either thying to be funny or needs a serious bitchslapping. :P
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Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:07 pm

Ragorn wrote:I can count on one hand the people I'd rather have playing my tank than Thanuk. Soo... let's just stop before we embarass ourselves, eh?


awww thats so sweet ragorn! Even though you're just saying it so you can get into my pants.

Gura wrote:ah. i'd rather hear u explain something i already know then hear u whine more about how u suck as a warrior.


Ok, well here's something you should already know. When there's a class that nobody plays, it's either because that class is no fun or because the class is underpowered. I find myself looking for clerics and enchanters alot when I want to do stuff, and that's on the goodie side, where people still log in. Plenty of rogues and elementalists around, no clerics and no enchanters. So underpowered or just no fun to play, something needs to be changed to make people want to be a cleric again.

Nobody wants to play evils anymore, so you're all for upgrading them. But god forbid you give a cleric a damage spell or a little bit of melee damage and make them an actual fun class, because a guy who doesn't even play here used to be able to solo without that stuff. That's great logic. Trolls and ogres used to be able to play fine without drow, duergar and squids, so lets just get rid of all them! There was once an ogre who dual wielded doombringer and avernus, so ogres must be fine!
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:11 pm

Didn't Tagad solo Chlora all those years ago? Clerics are fine, dude.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:17 pm

Gura wrote:once? i've seen yssilk solo tons of things that would kick my ass in a heartbeat. wow they dont have a good amount of offense. fullharm only does 300hps of damage. damn nuk it might take u 5 or 6 rounds to do 300hps and they get to heal themselves on top of that. so ur saying a cleric at -100 with an 18 or 20hitroll wielding a smasher with 7 or 800hps couldnt solo better than a warrior? clerics have better offense and defensive capabilities than warriors. i bet you a cleric could solo 90% of the single mobs on this mud faster and more efficiently than you or I could but then again u might have to find a cleric who can play their class well.


Just my personal opinion, but as Conan says: Cleric is to offense as Mustang GT is to... Yes! That's right! A Mustang GT with a misinstalled natural gas four cylinder engine :P
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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:01 pm

tagad had his toy.
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Postby Imis9 » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:38 pm

Anyone with heal can solo a mob on the edge of a zone, but clerics could use a little help. Hell, with some more offense spells there would be lots of clerics casting offense more and neglecting healing. More tank deaths! Moving (un)holy word to 9th or 10th would be a good move and give the good/evil clerics some kind of benefit over the old neutral clerics.

Imis

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Postby Yarash » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:29 pm

rylan wrote:Whoever voted for elementalist, illus and chanter is either thying to be funny or needs a serious bitchslapping. :P


Power means different things to different people. If by power a person is thinking of raw damage, enchanters are not very powerful. I would consider them a powerful class, myself.

On the topic of defenition of power, that reminds me of an interesting event. When I made Yarash I was looking at the stats (which had no explanation at the time), saw power, and I thought to myself, "Yea, I want to be powerful, I should try to make sure that stat is pretty good." Doh!

- Mike
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:31 pm

Yarash wrote:On the topic of defenition of power, that reminds me of an interesting event. When I made Yarash I was looking at the stats (which had no explanation at the time), saw power, and I thought to myself, "Yea, I want to be powerful, I should try to make sure that stat is pretty good." Doh!

- Mike


ROFLROFLROFL I did the same thing with my first character! I was the only warrior in the game with excellent strength and excellent power!
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:42 pm

Gura wrote:once? i've seen yssilk solo tons of things that would kick my ass in a heartbeat.


I think the issue is more of Yssilk being an uber player. I've seen him solo tons of things that kicked MY ass, and druids are supposedly better soloers than clerics by far. I'm convinced that with players like Lilithelle, Xaril, and Yssilk, the class they play is a simple question of style, and they can accomplish incredible things solo no matter what. If you downgrade the classes they play, that only serves to make things rougher on the other players of that class, not on them.

Therefore, I suggest that we should not include "uber" players in any discussion of how a class in general fares.
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Postby Stamm » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:20 pm

moritheil wrote:
Gura wrote:once? i've seen yssilk solo tons of things that would kick my ass in a heartbeat.


I think the issue is more of Yssilk being an uber player. I've seen him solo tons of things that kicked MY ass, and druids are supposedly better soloers than clerics by far. I'm convinced that with players like Lilithelle, Xaril, and Yssilk, the class they play is a simple question of style, and they can accomplish incredible things solo no matter what. If you downgrade the classes they play, that only serves to make things rougher on the other players of that class, not on them.

Therefore, I suggest that we should not include "uber" players in any discussion of how a class in general fares.


As good as Lilithelle is (and she is GOOD) she still couldn't pull it off with a warrior :P
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Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:32 am

level 51 god
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:46 am

In some cases a cleric can solo mobs as well as a druid. Druids have far better offense but like clerics we have very little in the way of defensive spells except for bark(as clerics just have armor). I find when I solo hard mobs I spend alot of time healing, 91 hp heals don't go a long way when your fighting a mob that does 200-300 hps a round. So clerics can heal up alot faster but do damage slower it probably ends up almost same time-wise. And on caster mobs curse is invaluable in silencing them and thats something druids lack also helps blind them. Can take alot of sunrays to blind high level mobs.

I think Imis was right that clerics having better offense probably isn't a good idea or you'd get even more of them nuking instead of healing but what I think they should have is more defense as theirs is a non-offensive class. I really like Duris's soulshield(or at least how it was long ago). Caused the cleric to take 1/2 damage from physical attacks by mobs of the opposite align attacking them. It gives clerics a nice boost for fighting opposite aligned mobs, presumably enemies of their god that they should be fighting, and gives goodie clerics a reason to play good aligned and be constantly worrying about alignment and unholy word. On Duris you needed +/-900 alignment to soulshield, so it took work to keep (at least if you were good :P)
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:03 am

I agree with Lilithelle. As a cleric who has been one for damn near a decade, yeah you learn your class well and can solo about as well as a druid. Even chlora is solo'able by a cleric, and you don't need Tagad's toy (it's been proven). But fact is, clerics suffer from both ailments Thanuk mentioned. Underpowered and not fun to play. I don't care what you can solo, it can take over an hour most of the time to solo anything worth solo'ing. We're almost as bad as invokers when it comes to being one trick ponies.

We can heal, and that's great. But the addition of some offense OR defense would be a huge plus to the class I think. I don't think it would be bad to downgrade full heal 10 or 15% in order to justify adding the extra oomph to the class.

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