Evil/Nuetral humans = Good for evils, Death of Duergar

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.

What do Duergar need to make them a a viable choice to play

Remove dayblind
10
20%
Add a new class: battlerager, illusionist, etc.
4
8%
Increase natural stats
1
2%
Duergar will suck no matter what. Delete Artikerus and start a human cleric:P
6
12%
Duergar really don't need any changes, just a loyal pbase that doesn't include Arti and his brothers
28
55%
Remove Duergar race period. Nothing legitimate will revive them.
2
4%
 
Total votes: 51
Clan Blindhammer
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Evil/Nuetral humans = Good for evils, Death of Duergar

Postby Clan Blindhammer » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:58 am

First off let me say that it is understood that the aim of the imms on this, and any mud, is to maintain balance while keeping the game fun for all to enjoy. They aim for pleasing the majority, with as little sacrifice to the minority as possible.

The current 5 day probation of humans of evil/nuetral alignment grouping with evils is a blessing to our low activity base. We will finally be able to somewhat fill our zoning groups, as well as open up many avenues of roleplay - another aspect of this mud that keeps it unique and playable.

However, this is another step into destroying what little playerbase is left on the Duergar race.

There isn't much to say, and no real common grounds to compare on except for in usefulness. Really, in most zones, xp based or not, Ultravision races, when they can be, are replaced by the non daylight impaired. Illithids get around this with their globe, drow can get around it with some of their class choices.

However, almost anything you pick as a Duergar can be bested by something else.

Duergar warriors: Trolls have better nat. ac, agi, dex and hp. Ogres are immensely stronger, better con.

Duergar elementalists: only true comparable is yuan-ti's, who have comparable intelligence and con, and aren't dayblind. Casters in general, such as drow, have a higher natural intelligence, and yes, Hometowns do add incentive to play. There would be more Orcs for that matter if BT was closer to DK.

Duergar clerics: yuan-ti are way comparable in wisdom and con, and aren't dayblind (again). Humans, now, have much lower con, similar wisdom, average stats all around. And are not dayblind.

Duergar rogues: Drow have better dex and agi, and the hub of evil activity for a hometown. If Duergar rogues were comparable otherwise, we'd have seen an increase in their players already, so something else has to be missing.

What I have suggested before should definitely be considered before Duergar anythings go the way of the Human warrior (i.e. extinct). This does include some additions possibly to class selection but I'll post them later if some gods can put some input as to where I am wrong. What is going to make duergars worth playing in the future? Dayblind is the biggest scourge to evils, and yes, that makes us a LOT different from mountain dwarves.

Let me finish this off by saying for the evils, we need this human grouping BADLY. But duergars deserve a serious overlooking, or removal totally from the game. Yes, I said removal. It's already an embarrassment that I'm the races' spokesman ;) But what can you do. I'd never endorse a player to start a duergar unless they were going to be prepared for fighting for groups or had a large group of friends, as I've been blessed with, for the help and leveling

Feh.
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Postby Gromikazer » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:19 am

I disagree. This is great, and from a RP side, makes perfect sense. I don't know how something that is obviously good can be bashed.

I disagree that duergar are at a disadvantage from other races. They have thier ups and downs.
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Postby Clan Blindhammer » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:37 am

Gromi,

great as a benefit to evils in general, or Duergar? I think there is a difference. Hear me out:

Many people are telling me, (some quite vehemently, Sesexe) that duergar are as equal as any other race/class combination, and I disagree.

Duergar make great warriors. Okay - where are all of them? You're the only one of note. How many dozen troll warriors, and even ogre warriors, are there of note?

My biggest concern is that it adds more options to the mud than Duergar, and we already lose out as it is. Duergar are not a viable option to a new player who compares classes and races. When you're the only Duergar in Gloomhaven, at level 1, and not knowing your ass from a rothe's face in the mud, you get disappointed quite easily. Drow clerics get it easy:P DK is bliss!!

I guess what Duergar REALLY need is a huge facelift and a PR job.
King Artikerus Blindhammer

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Postby Ambar » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:57 am

ask Gromi then ask a troll how much fun tiamat was ... Gromi took his dooger ... back in the evil zone days gromi was ALWAYS zoning ... poor guy had to wait til the pbse was low to level his alts ...

Duergar cleric ... is there any other option?? Who cares about dayblind anymore ... duergar cleric are the pwn ... picked duergar for my cleric ... get a dooger cleric and a snake and see who gets 75% of the resses (a few months ago snakes were called "failbots"...might be different now) i also know my cleric was at nearish 1k hps equipped and 12-1300 vitted ... at -100 AC not too shabby

the only reason I picked snake for my second elementalist is cause of those kool pets ... no .. REALLY ... snake pets have a style bonus :)

also picked duergar for my rogue ... sure drow may have the agi bonus .... but who would u rather see drag arti's corpse?? duergar have the con/strength and innate invis for hairy situations .. ALSO innate strength to drag bigger races (duergar can drag ambar corpse i THINK? unless she was fatted down with weight bags ...)


with the many classes that can successfully fog these days dayblind isnt even a hinderance anylonger .. the only places i see it a pain is .. hrrm jot ..where we have lately taken the easy-out with lure/summon. in straight up fights you are gonna take a squid or order one of your foggers to fog on entry .... i'd personally rather a dayblinder than a !infra ....

and for the record my first evilrace char was my cleric .. knew NOONE but frobakhal and somehow managed to get to DK just fine at the start of the wipe

think i will vote now ..
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Postby Sarell » Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:46 am

i reckon dooger rogue, cleric and elementalist pwn.... shrug
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Postby rylan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:14 pm

This also basically makes good aligned human clerics even more obsolete. There is currently little reason to be a good aligned human cleric, and if this change is kept, it results in ZERO reason besides pure hardcore rp purposes to stay as a good aligned human cleric. So now besides already having less access to the uber !good caster eq (only special good only thing for me is clouds fuglyhood) and the joys of eating unholy words in lots of zones, all the neutral wuss out clerics get to group with evils and I get to sit around.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:52 pm

rylan wrote: all the neutral wuss out clerics get to group with evils and I get to sit around.


We can sit around together rylan, just like the old days! I dunno about you, but I'm gonna move to EM and see if I can get my name changed to Chewbakka. But it totally makes sense that neutral humans can group with evilrace characters and evil barbarians cant. I'm sure the elves would just love me.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:01 pm

Come on over Thanuk, I'll bake you cookies while all the human/evil rogues are out playing with the psi's.
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:30 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clan Blindhammer
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Postby Clan Blindhammer » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:32 pm

Feh. Yer all batty.

Ambar your points are always valid and I appreciate someone like you bringing these things up. However, nobody has yet to answer the question as to why, if Duergar are such strong tanks and rogues and clerics, are there such a small supply of them? Gromi is the pwn - I dare say he's even a little better than Drulokerus Blindhammer (wink) - but its not for a lack of breeding that we don't have a lot of little Duergar warriors running around bashing things! You have to look at the race, individually, and decide WHY people do not play it. The goal of the admin show definitely be to have each aspect of the game equally attractive and useful, and the duergar race, for one reason or another, have lost a lot of the luster needed to attract a following.

It's not so much that humans will be better than duergar at this-that-and-the-other, it is more that it gives another alternative to making a duergar, thus making duergar non-existant. Alts really do not count if they only get used for a zone here and there as we need to fill a spot!

Again, I am for the addition of evil humans (I'm a little uneasy about nuetrals) because the pbase needs it, and with a few twinks (outcasting from WD mainly, re hometowning in VT, etc.) it should be moderately accepted. Never allow the stinky rats in the evil hometowns either. But lets look at Duergar as far as a facelift goes to encourage some sort of playerbase back into it. Removing dayblind is a bit preposterous - perhaps adding a new mage class or (cac) old style zerkers ;) - or even something as small as a couple new routes through the Underdark/expansion of Underdark zones on the Gloomhaven side to encourage easier experience without needing to go to DK.
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Postby Karae » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:41 pm

Honestly, I think the Evil pbase right now, will reward there faithful ones that are there now, so I honestly don't think the evil clerics or what ever classes will lose their spot, but only use the neutrals as a filler. But what do I know I'm a Paladin!
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:47 pm

Personally, I love my duergar and Will always play a duergar. Even If Arti thinks he is the true King of Gloomhaven. The fact is, They are pretty decent stat wise (IMHO) and have nice innates.

I might not be as Uber as some of the Other Duergars but I know my role. I like the way they are and don't want to see any changes to them.

Arti, I love you like a True Mournstone Clan even if you Ain't. We just need to con more people into playing them.

:) PLus I would hate to see them get some type of upgraded then have people fuss because they need a downgrade later.

Doogies Rule!

Grumdikanikus Mounrstone
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Postby rylan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:48 pm

Lol thanuk ;)

Hey maybe I can trade going neutral and grouping with evils for some spanky eq!
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Postby Stamm » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:54 pm

*sigh*

This again.

If duergars are almost identical to mountain dwarves, (which they are) then if mountain dwarves are good enough for goodies (and we are) then why are duergars not good enough for evils?
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:01 pm

Stamm wrote:*sigh*

This again.

If duergars are almost identical to mountain dwarves, (which they are) then if mountain dwarves are good enough for goodies (and we are) then why are duergars not good enough for evils?


Because trolls are better tanks, snakes are better clerics, and drow are better mages. Why every single evilrace rogue isn't a duergar, however, is beyond me.
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Postby Stamm » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:06 pm

thanuk wrote:
Stamm wrote:*sigh*

This again.

If duergars are almost identical to mountain dwarves, (which they are) then if mountain dwarves are good enough for goodies (and we are) then why are duergars not good enough for evils?


Because trolls are better tanks, snakes are better clerics, and drow are better mages. Why every single evilrace rogue isn't a duergar, however, is beyond me.


Right, that was the answer I was expecting....

So if duergars are not underpowered in comparison to goodies, but are underpowered in comparison to evils.... but evils aren't supposed to have it any harder or easier than goodies... why aren't evils arguing for downgrades?
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:09 pm

Stamm wrote:
thanuk wrote:
Stamm wrote:*sigh*

This again.

If duergars are almost identical to mountain dwarves, (which they are) then if mountain dwarves are good enough for goodies (and we are) then why are duergars not good enough for evils?


Because trolls are better tanks, snakes are better clerics, and drow are better mages. Why every single evilrace rogue isn't a duergar, however, is beyond me.


Right, that was the answer I was expecting....

So if duergars are not underpowered in comparison to goodies, but are underpowered in comparison to evils.... but evils aren't supposed to have it any harder or easier than goodies... why aren't evils arguing for downgrades?


(Don't listen to Thanuk, he's never zoned as an evil this wipe. Duergar are amazing)
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:19 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Stamm wrote:
Right, that was the answer I was expecting....

So if duergars are not underpowered in comparison to goodies, but are underpowered in comparison to evils.... but evils aren't supposed to have it any harder or easier than goodies... why aren't evils arguing for downgrades?


(Don't listen to Thanuk, he's never zoned as an evil this wipe. Duergar are amazing)


So then you agree that since evils are no longer harder than goodies, their superior stats and innates should be revoked?:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:31 pm

thanuk wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:
Stamm wrote:
Right, that was the answer I was expecting....

So if duergars are not underpowered in comparison to goodies, but are underpowered in comparison to evils.... but evils aren't supposed to have it any harder or easier than goodies... why aren't evils arguing for downgrades?


(Don't listen to Thanuk, he's never zoned as an evil this wipe. Duergar are amazing)


So then you agree that since evils are no longer harder than goodies, their superior stats and innates should be revoked?:)


I agree that thanuk's innate whine should be revoked.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:36 pm

thanuk wrote:So then you agree that since evils are no longer harder than goodies, their superior stats and innates should be revoked?:)


When we see unspelled naked 1.1k hp ogres slamripping efreeti guards we can talk about superior evil stats and innates (:
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"



Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:47 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:
When we see unspelled naked 1.1k hp ogres slamripping efreeti guards we can talk about superior evil stats and innates (:


Or we could consult Ye old list of racial stat modifiers, see that evil stats and innates are superior, and talk about them now. Comeon man, I know you went to cherzra's site at least once...you're telling me you didn't take a look?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:49 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:I agree that thanuk's innate whine should be revoked.


Veto. Shev had the opportunity to have me voluntarily never post on the bbs ever again, but he refused. Blame him!
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:03 pm

thanuk wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:
When we see unspelled naked 1.1k hp ogres slamripping efreeti guards we can talk about superior evil stats and innates (:


Or we could consult Ye old list of racial stat modifiers, see that evil stats and innates are superior, and talk about them now. Comeon man, I know you went to cherzra's site at least once...you're telling me you didn't take a look?


(Racial stat mods have changed since Sojourn3, the new ones are ACTUALLY secret I think)
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"



Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:19 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:(Racial stat mods have changed since Sojourn3, the new ones are ACTUALLY secret I think)


If you say so. But trolls sill have an extra con notch and higher agility, so they haven't changed that much.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gromikazer » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:17 pm

Too many goodies read to much into the ability to regen. While that is great for doing exp, taking double damage from clouds is really bad. I've constantly see clouds take 800-1000 damage from one cloud. If I could group dwarves and barbarians I would.


Anyways, I don't think there is anything wrong with duergars. There aren't many because to level them, it takes alot more work, because they don't get troll regen.
Gromikazer Terrorforge - 50th Duergar Warrior

Gamorakul - 49th Duergar Elementalist

Direb - 41st Orc Dire Raider

Gokal - 46th Orc Shaman

Lipopple - 40th Gnome Illusionist

Talkryn - 41st Human Anti-Paladin



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Postby Teyaha » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:24 pm

what?

snakes arent better anythings.

they have int/wis on par with a HUMAN!!

they give up 5 slots. that's a lot of potential hp gear for a caster.

they dont walk very well

and they have the worst home town in the game

oh yeah...and they were our only choice for illusionist.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:25 pm

Teyaha wrote:what?

snakes arent better anythings.

they have int/wis on par with a HUMAN!!

they give up 5 slots. that's a lot of potential hp gear for a caster.

they dont walk very well

and they have the worst home town in the game

oh yeah...and they were our only choice for illusionist.


I heard they had the single best wisdom in the game.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:39 pm

if that's true..is that worth the crappy hometown and the eq slots?
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:50 pm

Snakes are better than you gave them credit for.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:53 pm

i have a snake. level 46.

less than 410hp.

those 5 slots hurt
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Postby Treladian » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:03 pm

Speaking from the perspective of someone who's rolled a few evil chars in the past to play around with but never choosen dooger, I can at least shed some light on why some people are loathe to roll one up. Stats really have nothing to do with things. The main reasons I never have had an interest are

1) They start in the Underdark. And can't get out without external tools. Now, this might be just an irrational fear of being stuck in some isolated location away from the rest of the pbase I've developed after having to get my butt to level 20 to get off EM so many times, but if I do something stupid and don't survive, I don't want any barriers to getting my corpse. Or for that matter getting out to do something stupid in the first place.

2) They're evil DWARVES . . . they just lack the aesthetic appeal of yuan-ti, drow, or squids. Even trolls and ogres have more aesthetic appeal in their brutishness than Grumpy painted gray and consorting with monsters. How often do you even see evil dwarves as villains in fantasy fiction anyway? I've only ever seen them as minions for drow or squids before they meet their very, very painful death. Your race has an image problem to overcome. I mean, anyone can see an ogre, troll, snake, or squid and, after learning what they are, think to themselves "Yeah, that's definately evil." It takes a little bit more work for it to happen with drow, but they've been a staple D&D villain for a long time now and have that elegant deadliness quality to them that can make people think "Yeah, I can definately see how these guys could be evil" after hearing about their society or spider and whip fetish. Now have that same person see a version of <a href="http://www.gamespy.com/images/index_layout/grudge/pics/dwarves2.jpg">these guys</a> painted gray and I doubt you'll get the same reaction. Even after you explain that they're a bitter race of workaholics that can hold their liquor, but evil instead of good, the connection between evilness and gray dwarves just won't quite click. Compared to the other evil races, you just seem like the diet coke of evil.

Now I don't think there's really anything you can get changed about the second problem. But getting the first one changed would at least get some people to be more willing to try out duergar.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:55 pm

duegars are great rogues, poor clerics, passable warriors, and decent elementalists.

bad as clerics cuz you can't heal if you can't see. Got great innates, invis, enlarge and strenght for dragging. Snake clerics own all over human now cept that 4 slot thing which is a blessing and a curse.

passable warriors cuz you can't rescue if you can't see. course this is offset a little now that elementalists and illusionists can block the sun too. Again great innates enlarge for bashing or so your not bashed, strength and invis. Still they aren't because trolls take so much fire damage.

elementalists get earth fog so ultra is less of an issue. Since a lot of stuff ele's do is solo, not having the agility of snakes kinda hurts. Id make a snake ele for the agility and faster mem times (i think). I don't buy human ele > duegar ele.

I think picking a race that is blind under certain common scenarios is just daft when people rely upon you to keep them alive.
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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:36 am

There aren't more duergar warriors cause lazy people leveling up trolls cause its easier. You can solo and take advantage of regen. Duergar warriors own, dwarves are the goodie staple for tanks and duergars are almost the same stats but are actually stronger than dwarves. Sure you'd bring trolls for zonings without mobs that incend, breath fire, or lava burst but otherwise you want duergars. Ogre warriors are almost a contradicton in terms since they can't tank a all and warriors aren't exactly damage machines these days they're just good for bashing what are ordinarily too big to bash by other races.

Duergar elementalists are not the pown :( Duergar are dumb as rocks, even dumber than humans. If I remember right level 1 mem time was 30 seconds to a humans 28. Problem with earth fog is you can't use it to move in daylight easily. When you enter a new room it says your blind and can't see anything, until you type look. so you have to move one room, look, decide which way to go, move room, look, etc. If they fix that it might be decent, i would think upping duergar int to human wouldn't be a bad idea. Duergar hps better than human and being short is actually pretty handy for soloing so wouldn't be a bad choice for elementalists that want to solo and group with evils.

Duergar clerics definitely stink now that yuan-ti's so wise in my book, yuan may have less hps but cleric hps are generally decent anyway. Not sure how that would be fixed i can see duergars getting a modest wis upgrade but nothing like yuan.

Duergar rogue definitely the way to go, i've talked to so many goods about rogue race and they basically said you have to go human or dwarf because halflings/elves can't drag and a rogue that can't CR is kinda pointless. I know someone with a 46 halfling rogue thats so sick of not being able to drag he's rolling up a new rogue. I love the elven race but i've worn 22 max_str and not been able to drag a human corpse. I can only assume drow have a similar issue with strength. The dwarven rogues i've talked to like pava and molor say, and have certainly proven through their actions, that they can sneak and hide flawlessly due to skill level. So drow might do somethings better than duergar, thats not true at level 50 when your skills are practiced up.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing duergars with a couple more classes for duergars but i'd think adding bchanter might make the orc race even more obsolete. Human illusionists certainly make yuan-ti illusionists pointless, i could see duergar illusionist or maybe drow illusionists. Duergar enchanter would make some RP sense but i can't see anyone picking duergar enchanter over drow due to int difference.
Just my 2 cents
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Postby Clan Blindhammer » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:33 am

great points Lili.

The flaws Duergar face are not just an overall suckiness - it does range depending on what you have to compare it to. While duergar rogues are awesome, those problems with hometowns, ultra, and in the least, individuality/personality do come in to play.

Adding battlechanters would take away from Orcs, I agree. And enchanters wouldn't help too much compared to Drow, but the added hp modifiers would definitely be something to think about in the end.

I believe we use to have Shaman as a class if I remember my own hometown guildhall lay out. Perhaps this might be a time to think of bringing back some classic classes;) Like mercenary;)

I think Lili's ideas for the small stat increases are the smartest, safest, way to go.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:04 pm

i disagree, no improvements are needed.

They have plenty of redeeming qualities (innates, great hps and strength)

humans available to evil side groups does nothing significant to duegar except make a lower hp more int elementalist available and a lower hp cleric available.

THe choice whether to play duegar or snake has always been whether you wanted to be dayblind. Some do, some don't. I don't see how making humans changes this or creates any balance issues for duegar.
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Postby Yasden » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:50 pm

Lilithelle is right. Duergar warriors are by far the best overall tanks. Sure they don't have superior agi/dex or regen, but they have much better strength and the same con notch as trolls, and they don't get owned for 900+ damage from dessicate/lava burst (cloud is wussy compared to these two). Not to mention innate enlarge + invis. People are just lazy (for good reason with the small pbase) and use trolls because they're much easier/faster to solo to 50.

If ANYTHING, I would suggest making battlechanters a viable option for duergars to roll so it's not just orcs. Possibly enchanters too, not sure if I'm too keen on that idea though.

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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:57 pm

I agree with kiryan.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:49 pm

Yasden wrote:same con notch as trolls


One less actually.
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Postby Ensis » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:22 pm

How many Human Clerics are there?

Off the top of my head I can think of Rylan(Good) and Tolad(Evil). Most of the goodie clerics are dwarves. I think there are probably more elf clerics now than there are human clerics.

Nobody likes playing humans. !infra sucks, !stat bonuses sucks, !innates sucks. The only thing humans have going for them are pallys/antis, and the ability to be universal. I think this is more of a benefit to humans than it is a detriment to goodies and evils.

Are all the duergar clerics going to reroll because they want to have less hit points but see at the daytime? lose their stat bonuses, innate abilities, etc?.. would you rather be a human and walk around instead of memming faster and surviving a couple fights, and using a couple cool innates?..

I don't think so. I think thats why they're such a struggling race as it is. Why be a human ranger when you can be a halfelf, if you really don't want to be a greyelf with no hit points. Why be a human druid when you could be a half elf or grey elf. Why be a human bard when you could be a half elf or grey elf. Why be a human warrior when you could be a barbarian or dwarf. Human rogue?..yaright, halflings, gnomes, greyelves..even dwarves take precedent. Cleric?..dwarf.

I think the duergar are safe. If someone hated dayblindness that bad, I think they would've probably quit playing a duergar a long time ago and made a snake, or a goodie.

Not all races are going to be the ultimate of each class. Some are better suited for others, some fill niches as one class but suck at another, humans are just generic. They are only the best in that they can go anywhere, do anything, etc.

I think it has to wait to be played out, but humans are going to settle back into being neglected, the novelty will wear off.
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Postby Gromikazer » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:41 pm

FYI, who human s, yielded 6 human clerics 42+. I don't remember who they all were, but I remember laughing about it.
Gromikazer Terrorforge - 50th Duergar Warrior

Gamorakul - 49th Duergar Elementalist

Direb - 41st Orc Dire Raider

Gokal - 46th Orc Shaman

Lipopple - 40th Gnome Illusionist

Talkryn - 41st Human Anti-Paladin



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