Go-Go Khanjari Gender Bender

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Ashiwi
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Go-Go Khanjari Gender Bender

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:48 pm

After talking to several people about this issue, I'd really like to lodge a complaint about this. Since day one, I've noticed this mud has some kind of fetish for encouraging its players to roll female characters, for some unknown and faintly disturbing reason. I've always felt that this practice seriously undermines the roleplay potential of the overall game, because the majority of the male players who play female characters have no intention of playing them as female... the gender is only a tool, a means to an end.

The latest brand of gender abuse seems to be a proc associated with the khanjari. Is there any reason, whatsoever, that this already powerful weapon needs to behave like a teenage, be-pimpled boy in an Alabama cathouse in the hands of a female rogue? I never said anything about the racial inequalities of the weapon, which I honestly see no point for, because I really believe the ability to group with evils was the best damned bone you could offer the human players, and piling more on top of that seems to be going overboard. This, however, is just ridiculous. Is there any point at all in giving female characters such an advantage? One of the better known rogues in the mud re-rolled as a female, simply because he apparently saw the discrepancies in power as that broad.

Come on. Please. I'm female, and you'd think that if I wanted an edge that I would be all for all the little bits of code that offer an advantage to female characters, but this just seems silly. Just what is the reason so much advantage has to be given to females? I'd say "human female evil rogues" but they're not the only advantaged ones... they just seem to be gaining ground as the most advantaged.
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Postby Diel » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:14 pm

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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:38 pm

I tend to agree, I'd really rather have a balanced mud so people don't pick sex just for game advantage. How about getting rid of all the sex biased eq, and maybe throw a few mobs into the game that charm female players only, like Incubus. Can drop some of them on ethereal, make the veil in oakvale load on charming satyr sometime so others can have the "fun" Ferdelon had the other day. I certainly don't need or seek any kind of advantage.
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Postby Klosh » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:18 pm

I play females because it helps me pick up dudes.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:13 pm

Maybe if the gods would ungag "down grade khanjari" the problem would be fixed. The fact that one item can so seriously change a class... stupid.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:20 pm

You know, in the beginning I really didn't see the khanjari as so incredibly overpowered, but I had no idea of the differences between the weapon I wield and the ones that are in the hands of those players who, for some reason, fill the optimal preferences for the class. Watching Anilia proc five times to my one, with each one pretty much a double-proc resulting in multiple enhancements, was a pretty big eye-opener.
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Postby Crumar » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:14 pm

Let's face it, the dagger was intended as a reward for one person's alt to use. Why not just make a tag for that person's dagger(s) so this person can keep his/her reward and make it not proc insanely on every evil human female rogue character that is created. I have seen 7 people with level 50 rogues roll up new rogue female evil human rogue's just to get the benefit of the extra Khanjari procs. I have seen Anilia in action, seen a few other rogue's who are female human evil and the rate of the proc and the stacking of each proc is just way overboard. If your gonna do this sort of thing then just don't do it on one weapon but do them on all for each race. Otherwise remove it and give that one person the benefit only if that's what its intent was.

Oh and by the way if some god logs on here and say's that this is not true none of us will believe it. Its just to blatant of the way the proc was made for a specific race class gender for it to be otherwise so don't try to wiggle out of this one. Not even the dwarvish axe of battle slaying is gender only and we can't even compare that weapon because it doesn't have all the procs the Khanjari does. We love you guys up there and the work you do and know that rewards are and should be warranted from time to time. But this is really getting out of hand because you just didn't hand one reward you handed out a truck load for everyone to abuse now. Please try to see it from our side, and if it can be fixed so that the one person can keep his/her reward try to do so.
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Postby Birile » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:42 pm

Gormal wrote:Maybe if the gods would ungag "down grade khanjari" the problem would be fixed. The fact that one item can so seriously change a class... stupid.


Amen. Would an Imm mind letting us know if they're ignoring this request to downgrade khanjari or if they're looking into making it reasonable? Whatever racial/sex modifiers it's got on it, the khanjari is insane in the hands of ANY rogue period.
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Postby molor » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:55 pm

I agree that khanjari daggers are powerful, but it's not that powerful for the work you put into get one. So my recommandation will be to turn the enchanted khanjari dagger that wasn't quested through new way into unenchanted and make the user quest through the new way.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:58 pm

Females don't get any advantage whatsoever from the khanjari proc. One specific gender/alignment/race combo does get a bonus, however, and most of you probably already know what that combination is. *Why* did I code it like that?

Theme. Read up on Khanjari magic - its a very specific kind of magic used to imbue people of the above stated gender/race/alignment with power. I thought it'd be more interesting to have it work differently for all of the other combos rather than just have it limited to that one combo.

Crumar -

Let's face it, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I'll be the judge of why I coded that proc and every other piece of code I've written - and you can believe what I say or play elsewhere, but I won't put up with childish accusations like those in your post.

I've said this before and I'll say it again - I have always strived to be as impartial as possible as the arbiter of new code for the 8 years I've been with this MUD, and petty accusations like that one are just plain insulting, and I'm sick of hearing them. Khanjari works for some people best, DK works for Antis best, moonblades work best for elves, etc etc - get the fuck over it, there's no conspiracy.

Please feel free to post your thoughts on Khanjari and its power and I'll be happy to read them and consider them - but leave out the bullshit theories about why its coded the way it is - it clouds the only important issue here: game balance.
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Postby Ihazim » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:27 pm

Actually if you guys took the time out to test out every combination of rogue :p, you might find another set that gets some nifty bonuses or even niftier bonuses.

Just to compare three race/gender/align combo that ive tested:

evil/grey/male gets a 1:3:1 (fury, power, rage) every 27 hits(ish) with 2 daggers. They can tank well due to agility and , they get outdoor sneak, infra and get an extra attack.

evil/human/fem gets a 2:1:2 ratio (fury, power, rage) . every 77 hits for 1 dagger. They can not tank as well (probably due to lack of agility) and because of less hps gained from procs, they get massive hit dam bonuses, no infra, no sneak, inferior stats.

good/dwarf/male gets a 3:1:1( fury, power, rage) every 34 hits with 2 daggers. they are excellent tanks due to their hps. they get a critical bonus and they can drag all. they do not deal as much damage as the above two. +infra

the procs per attack average varies a lot but you get a good idea of the trend. I think what the khanjari dagger does is equalize the races in terms of advantages... sort of like balancing the races.

In summary:
The khanjari dagger tends to a races attributes in order to determine its power. Without that aspect, the races tendto be out of balance with each other (as they are without khanjari daggers). Humans, imo, would be inferior. After khanjari daggers, though, they are on par with an evil/gray/male and good/dwarf/male in terms of characteristics that would make them appealing. greys, dwarfs, and humans each have something to make them worth playing.

However, when i tested out a good/human/male, he seemed to suffer the most in terms of proc rates :p and race attributes. Im not done testing him out so yea.

so yea, if anyone cares.
Last edited by Ihazim on Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:27 pm

When several of the high level rogues have re-rolled to have that specific combination in order to make use of this proc, how does that reflect on game balance? Doesn't that imply an imbalance, tilting the power to that particular combination?
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Postby Crumar » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:29 pm

Your right Shevarash I don't know what I am talking about. Because you and every other immortal like to keep us guessing as to why this item of vast power was implemented within the game a certain way. Of course you don’t have to tell us anything because your not obligated to. But had you come out and said this before then people like myself wouldn't be thinking these things. For the past 3 months there have been posts on this specific issue, and one post that was completely deleted after someone said exactly what I did in worse words. Here is another post yet again on this same topic.

Over and over it keeps coming up. You know what Shevarash, I am not the one and only person that thought this. In fact do a poll and half the mud well tell you that’s exactly what they thought too. If my post was viewed as insulting the entire staff you just basically insulted a lot of players for feeling the same way too. The only thing was I had the balls to say what was on everyone’s mind. If you don't like what I got to say well then I am sorry for speaking on behalf of some of the players on here. It wasn’t meant as an attack on you or any other staff member it was a push to get one of you to finally say something. Well if I am on the immortal shit list so be it I come here to have fun and play the game not to play politics. I only posted cause it was time for someone to speak out on the matter and if it bothers a few of you up there nothing I can do about that. Thank you for responding at least it will be appreciated by a lot of people on here.


Shevarash wrote:Please feel free to post your thoughts on Khanjari and its power and I'll be happy to read them and consider them - but leave out the bullshit theories about why its coded the way it is - it clouds the only important issue here: game balance.


As the man said he wants to hear why its way overpowerd, now its your chance to finally tell him cause he is listening.

Crumar.
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Postby Ihazim » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:30 pm

I feel the only reason for the new trend in rogues is because e/f/h rogues deal the most damage.
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Postby Birile » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:32 pm

Ashiwi wrote:When several of the high level rogues have re-rolled to have that specific combination in order to make use of this proc, how does that reflect on game balance? Doesn't that imply an imbalance, tilting the power to that particular combination?


No, it implies the flavor of the week for all of the rogue aficionados out there.
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Postby Birile » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:35 pm

Shevarash wrote:*Why* did I code it like that?

Theme.


I think it's always interesting to try something out, but perhaps, Shev, the Khanjari is a little out of balance with other endgame weapons in this game and it should be looked into? I see rogues frequently getting over 1000 hp's from the procs on this dagger, not to mention the other procs. That's just a little out of whack for a class that is supposed to be high on damage and rather low on tanking power (dodge aside).
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:38 pm

Ashiwi wrote:When several of the high level rogues have re-rolled to have that specific combination in order to make use of this proc, how does that reflect on game balance? Doesn't that imply an imbalance, tilting the power to that particular combination?


No, but it does imply the possibility. It's also highly possible that some people are jumping to conclusions before comprehensively determining that doing so would be to their overall advantage. Ihazim's post addresses that possibility to some degree.

I'm not prepared yet to state my opinion on the matter, but I will consider it.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:46 pm

Crumar -

The same crap has been posted on these forums several times, and I've responded to it with posts similar to what you got several times. Apparently you missed them, and that's fine. You're not expected to read everything or do research before posting. Its much easier to just believe what everyone else thinks and assert that it is without a doubt true, and then complain that I keep you in the dark about everything.

Or you could just ask me. Shockingly original idea, isn't it?

And no, you're not on a shitlist. I don't have one of those - life's too short. (Except for Larem, he has a list all to himself.)
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Postby Crumar » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:07 pm

Perhaps I did miss a few posts I don't tend to post often as you can see by my number of posts on my tag. I can understand why Shevarash would get upset by us constantly posting about this issue. But right now this is the most powerful weapon in game and a lot of people who are like me were wondering why. If there were other similar weapons like this one out there that had 3 very powerful proc's like this one most people would not be complaining. I myself don't really care if this weapon is in the game or not as is, but perhaps others do because they want to be just as powerful as a rogue wielding them.

Like if 2h enchanted gythka gave extra proc power for its 3 proc's then people would not be so quick to complain. But the fact that there is just one out there that does more because it has a gender tag on top of it being race class restricted must really bother people. But that’s the theme of the weapon. If you guys posted about other FR theme related stuff that would be comparable to this I am sure Shevarash would consider it too. Maybe that’s the direction we should take now instead of complaining about this one particular weapon. Bring it up to area makers or Shev and perhaps he or the other staff will take it into consideration who knows. Nothing to lose by trying. Anyway thanks for making me feel better Shev I never meant to insult you even though it looks like it came out like that sometimes no matter how I say it, it may look wrong from other people's perspective.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:19 pm

Oh, and I wasn't implying that the proc favored females in general, only that in its favor for a particular type of female it adds to the gender gap which already exists in the mud.

Many people have referred to the khanjari as a "class defining" weapon, and in many ways it is. The khanjari is the cream of the crop of rogue weapons, and while I happen to like my khanjari, even I agreed when it was first implemented that the proc could be toned down. That was before I ever knew the proc was different for different combinations of race/alignment/gender, and the results I was seeing off my khanjari didn't even begin to compare to what certain others were capable of.

Since I first rolled Ashiwi, I've had to deal with making the supposed "wrong" choice, as others viewed it. For so long the equipment was incredibly imbalanced, favoring evil rogues over any other alignment, and I've even been told by several of the staff members that it shouldn't be any other way, that all the best equipment for rogues should be geared for evils only, as rogues shouldn't ever be good aligned. I used to RP, and I've provided my stories as support for my behavior, and I've seen a few changes go in, mostly due to sweeping equipment changes instead of a change in attitudes towards the stereotypes. I've watched rampant and rabid arguments break out over the !male flag, and I've seen plenty of people re-roll in order to take advantage of the VERY obvious benefits the other side had to offer. Bones are being tossed to the human race to increase their playability, and while I heartily support that, there comes a point where you have to say 'enough.'

Supporting this particular combination seems to be way too much. How in the world did somebody look at the ROGUE class and think 'now there's an under-supported group, let's get those evil female rogues the power they deserve'? I'm appalled that all this is given to a niche group that is ALREADY considered to be one of the most powerful in the game. I've fought tooth and nail to try to keep the rogue class semi-balanced, to weed out certain aspects of the class which go beyond overpowered, to keep my favorite class from overreaching to the point where inevitable downgrades come to the very aspects of the class which make it enjoyable to play, but this...

Damn. Somebody please correct me, because I'm lost as to how this was considered an appropriate combination to give an advantage to... by anybody.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:33 pm

I think the trend of making racist or very restricted is a great thing. I'd like to see a lot more eq that works better for certain races/class/alignment/gender in the future.

I get the feeling that a lot of you feel that this is a new trend when it certainly is not.

holy/unholy avenger = uber powerful sick weapons. restricted to one race/class, holy even has a prestige bonus or so i've heard. To a lesser degree, faith rocks.

sakuuruk dagger does like 2x as much dagger for barbarians on the proc.

windsong, swiftblade, very racist weapons. THis is one huge emotional reason why there are almost no human rangers. PROCS ARE FUN. remember when all ragners were human so they oculd wield gleaming mithril axe 4d5 4/5? the windsong came in and they all rolled grey?

Rockcrusher, very powerful weapon, im green with envy that only dwarves can wield this thing and skullsmasher got dgraded into total crap at about the same time (stoped bashing wraiths, giants,ect). yes its 2h so stupid for warriors to wield, but what other weapon in the game can bash as much... and clerics can wield it too.

dragonscale robes, sick sick sick, can not be worn by humans or any race that can be a shaman. why not just make it !shaman? aholes!

people whine and bitch about the eq advantages certain race/class/alignment combinations get. however, this is largely at the discretion of area makers... THEY MAKE THE EQ THEY WANT TO MAKE... how would you like to make a zone and be told what eq to put in it? Its the same issue with druids and !nature zones, druids aren't a sucky class, they just don't have nearly as much power in !nature.

I have no problem with khanjari until someone puts in an equally hard quest and is denied biased bounses or modestly similar power... of course all things would have to be equal, i wouldnt want to see a 1h mageable khanjari, but modestly similar in power taking into account class and abilities.

I think khanjari is good for the game, i think extreme players will always reroll to take advantage of a certain combination of eq that they perceive to be the ultimate... perhaps this trend will taper as more khanjariesque items enter the game.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Birile » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:34 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Damn. Somebody please correct me, because I'm lost as to how this was considered an appropriate combination to give an advantage to... by anybody.


I am by no means the person with the most knowledge on this topic but I Shev did say that it came down to Theme. Frankly, theme is a great reason for making something--an item, zone, class, whatever--a particular way on a Mud, especially one such as Toril that is trying to emphasize the RP aspect a little more these days. However, too, I think that when something gives a serious advantage to one combination of race/class/gender/whatever, it probably shouldn't be implemented without the addition of other items/aspects that give similar advantages (power-wise) to other combinations. I think that the khanjari in general is a little overpowered and needs to be tweaked down, but if that's not going to happen, there needs to be justification for an apparent selecting of any particular race/class/gender combination of this type of bonus and, in essence, upgrade. Why? Because, above all--even above RP, I would surmise (I may be wrong)--balance has always been key for the Imms here. And the khanjari has thrown any sort of balance in regards to the rogue class out of whack in a big way. A class that could solo things if the player behind the character had the skills enough to do it is now able to solo things mainly based on the power of what is being wielded and even mediocre rogues are pulling off stunts that many other classes could only dream of doing. I think that's a problem. I guess I could be opening myself up for attack by saying this since I don't have a rogue or a khanjari to my name, but I think I'm rather unbiased in my thoughts, either way. :)
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Postby kiryan » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:42 pm

evil human female rogues were ever considered to be an awesome choice for rogues? i never heard that until khanjari...

dwarven rogues = most strength (good for dragging and critting)

gnome/grey/halfing rogues = most attacks, no amount of maxdex eq will ever give a human or dwarf an extra attack as far as i can tell.

human = not as strong as dwarves, no extra attack, similar hps to gnomes... no infra.... when was human rogue every a desirable combination? now they are arguably the most damaging dealing rogue. the vault to 1st place was sudden and perhaps that deserves the emotional reaction we are getting here, but i dont think it necessarily qualifies as out of balance. dwarves getting a weapon that procd halfling dex would be far more out of balance imo, or halflings getting a weapon that procd dwarf con and str would be.

as far as gender roles and genderbending, there is a !female flag but its never used.. blame area makers and hordes of computer geeks who prefer to think of themselves or wanting to create/own some elven seductress.... i would like to see more male only eq in the game, but id also like to see an uber human ranger weapon also.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby kiryan » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:46 pm

I think the khanjari's power is a direct result of our "objetive" eq calcing system.

you can create the sickest most unbalanced item in the game as long as you have enough points. Im sure they sanity check everything, but look at khanjari's quest, name a quest even remotely as difficult that nets one object...

what exactly are you comparing? khanjari to gcd? all comparisons are apples to oranges when you take into account the difficulty.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Alomlim » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:51 pm

Some links for those unfamiliar with the rare beauty and majesty of the khanjari, and its affiliations

they're for sale (for dollars!)
http://yahooshopping.rediff.com/srchnew ... pg=_yhcat_

a variety of them
http://www.indianmusicals.com/percussio ... /intro.htm

how to make one yourself
http://www.panjokutch.com/geography/Khanjari.htm

Note further what species is using these items! HUMANS, a full FIFTY PERCENT of which are EvilFemales
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:36 pm

Look, if you follow the story, Tarkin is a evil horny zhentish wizard. Zhentish are evil humans. The end. Sorry for starting this whole khanjari business btw.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Birile » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:07 pm

Dalar wrote:Look, if you follow the story, Tarkin is a evil horny zhentish wizard. Zhentish are evil humans. The end. Sorry for starting this whole khanjari business btw.


Dalar has spoken, this means we all should stop the discussion from hence forth. Yeah.

Big f**king deal, Tarkin's an evil human, that doesn't mean khanjari should be this overpowered. Big f**king deal, the quest is difficult, that still doesn't mean khanjari should be this overpowered. Should it be uber? Hell yeah. But there's a difference between uber and overpowered. The enchanted khanjari dagger, as it stands now, and in any rogue's hands regardless of race/class/gender, is overpowered. 95% of those who would disagree have a rogue who either a) has one or more of these daggers or b) has wet dreams about having one or two of them someday or c) is good friends with a rogue that fits a) or b).

All I'm sayin' is tone it down a tad.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:27 pm

Ok. Some of you think its overpowered, I got it - I'll think about it and review it.

Ashiwi, your concern with an abundance of female characters and female only eq is a valid concern, but not really related to the khanjari. If you think there isn't enough male-only eq to counterbalance the female-only stuff, write a zone and put some in.

As for your concern with the khanjari giving an uber bonus to evil female human rogues over good female elves, well...

While evil female human rogues undeniably get a bonus from the khanjari, every other rogue race/gender combination I can think of gets an advantage over evil female humans - that they *always* get, and don't have to do a khanjari level quest for. Extra hits, extra dex, innate evasion, extra strength...etc. I think all of that counterbalances the bonus to evil female humans - which isn't nearly as extreme as many seem to think, though it is admittedly significant.

If some player wants to give up their racial bonuses and innates in order to get improved functionality on a proc, more power to them. Having options like that are part of what makes this game so fun, in my humble opinion.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:55 pm

Shevarash wrote:Ok. Some of you think its overpowered, I got it - I'll think about it and review it.

Ashiwi, your concern with an abundance of female characters and female only eq is a valid concern, but not really related to the khanjari. If you think there isn't enough male-only eq to counterbalance the female-only stuff, write a zone and put some in.

As for your concern with the khanjari giving an uber bonus to evil female human rogues over good female elves, well...

While evil female human rogues undeniably get a bonus from the khanjari, every other rogue race/gender combination I can think of gets an advantage over evil female humans - that they *always* get, and don't have to do a khanjari level quest for. Extra hits, extra dex, innate evasion, extra strength...etc. I think all of that counterbalances the bonus to evil female humans - which isn't nearly as extreme as many seem to think, though it is admittedly significant.

If some player wants to give up their racial bonuses and innates in order to get improved functionality on a proc, more power to them. Having options like that are part of what makes this game so fun, in my humble opinion.


Uh I think biriles post hit the nail on the head, the khanjari IS overpowered, anyone who does not think so either owns one or wants one.

I've seen rogues 2 man ds with just a chanter, landing over 10 attacks per round. Rouges are spose to tank like shit, but this dagger changes all that.

I'm sorry for all those that worked their asses off on this quest but damn, this weapon makes every other in the game look like crap except maybe DK.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:25 pm

Shevarash wrote:Ok. Some of you think its overpowered, I got it - I'll think about it and review it.


Should I make it blink this time?
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Postby Birile » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:14 pm

Shevarash wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Ok. Some of you think its overpowered, I got it - I'll think about it and review it.


Should I make it blink this time?


:lol:
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:51 pm

Shevarash wrote:Should I make it blink this time?


No, because making the khanjari blink would make it even more obscenely overpowered than it is already.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:01 pm

kiryan wrote:evil human female rogues were ever considered to be an awesome choice for rogues? i never heard that until khanjari...


Evil humans period have been a strong choice for rogues for a long time simply because of the fact that they could go evil for all the evil only hitter gear and not get slaughtered by their hometown guards. Evil has long had a history of really nice hitter gear and evil thieves/assassins/rogues have had powerful items tailored for their use even in Soj3 (there were a lot of pissed non-human rogues when the smoke invasion armor entered the game as evil only). Now I don't know if halflings able to survive being evil in their hometown thing is something that came with the change of Lurien to Beluir or if everyone just somehow missed in before, but having access to a wide range of good gear that good and neutral aligned could only dream of before certainly is an advantage many players took into consideration.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:07 pm

I can understand a racial unique proc and even alignment unique proc, and even one that combines the two.

I fully don't understand a gender related proc on such a powerful and class defining weapon.

Valkyrie sword isn't class defining weapon in the least, but does have a gender restriction. It's a token item made for a little fun. Nothing worthy of note.

If you were concerned about humans needing a boon, then giving evil human rogues as a whole sounds fine. Restricting it to females only doesn't sound particularly logical decision in my opinion.

Perhaps you should have just made the weapon !male in the first place?

I only hold this opinion because Khanjari IS the class defining weapon for rogues.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:15 pm

Who says that the evil human bonus is restricted to males?

I'm very much liking the fact that after over a year of being in, this proc still hasn't been completely figured out.
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Postby Salen » Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:11 pm

If it isn't limited to a specific race/align/sex combo, that just means it's even more out of whack than previously thought. That being said.... what rogue wants to tank for me to get 50th?
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Postby moritheil » Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:27 pm

Shevarash wrote:Who says that the evil human bonus is restricted to males?

I'm very much liking the fact that after over a year of being in, this proc still hasn't been completely figured out.


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Postby Gufry » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:13 pm

Well, it sounds like there was a cool idea that got out of hand.

I like the thought of having items, that behave differently for different race/class/gender combinations, especially when it is linked to a theme and the quest that leads to getting the item.
The problem seems to be that the 'ideal' race/class/gender combo, in this case, gets a weapon that puts all others to shame. Perhaps a better way to approach this problem, would be to make the daggers sub-par in most peoples hands, but if your pc has the right characteristics, the dagger becomes a good weapon, on par, maybe slightly better, than a weapon that does not have these restrictions (e.g. if the etched dagger is the standard, then maybe have it do the same amount of damage as an etched dagger under the best circumstances when paired with the right character attributes, but be less powerful in the hands of a less than ideal pc). If you have a bunch of items like this around, then the overall power of pcs would be similar, at the same time characters in a given profession would have unique 'optimal' sets of equipment.

I also like the idea that a weapon with different procs changes the frequency of the proc, depending on the character. However, this mud being what it is, some procs are more benifical than others, so there's allways be a prefered race/class/gender combo. (if I have to type race/class/gender combo one more time I'll freak).

Another idea along those lines, not necessarily race/class dependent manner, would be equipment sets (a la Diablo).

Well, that probably amounts to less than 2 cents, especially since I don't play much these days, but there you have it.

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Postby Sarell » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:19 am

I really think it isn't over powered. Even on human female or whatever. I have several rogues. The dooger outshines the evil human by a mile even tho the human has khanjari AND BC dagger. It makes it so you will have a chance of being able to 2 person DS with a good chanter / ele. Only if you bring poisons and are decked in every other way aswell tho, and even then I wont do it as you can die to one or two crits and waste everything, better to just group. Rogue exp was out of whack well before khanjari came into the picture. Most other classes can do DS with a chanter as well, my warrior certainly can and doesn't even have to fear death on crits. Actually my chanter does best exp soloing DS heh (or smoking with a lich) !human actually gets more healing action imho due to not rage proccing. You will find that a few of the top rogues in the game have made evil humans, and have then gone back to playing their rogues that could drag corpses and have infra without obscure gear changes to the perfect set. What do you think khanjari can give to a group that a rogue without it couldn't? The damage doesn't change terribbly much. But is an improvement; and so it should be having completed the hardest quest in game to get a dagger.

One thing the khanjari does nice I must confess is that you don't die from ripostes as much. Prior to having the dagger my rogue reuired more healing than the tank in most zones :(.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:22 pm

Sarell wrote:I really think it isn't over powered. Even on human female or whatever. I have several rogues. The dooger outshines the evil human by a mile even tho the human has khanjari AND BC dagger. It makes it so you will have a chance of being able to 2 person DS with a good chanter / ele. Only if you bring poisons and are decked in every other way aswell tho, and even then I wont do it as you can die to one or two crits and waste everything, better to just group. Rogue exp was out of whack well before khanjari came into the picture. Most other classes can do DS with a chanter as well, my warrior certainly can and doesn't even have to fear death on crits. Actually my chanter does best exp soloing DS heh (or smoking with a lich) !human actually gets more healing action imho due to not rage proccing. You will find that a few of the top rogues in the game have made evil humans, and have then gone back to playing their rogues that could drag corpses and have infra without obscure gear changes to the perfect set. What do you think khanjari can give to a group that a rogue without it couldn't? The damage doesn't change terribbly much. But is an improvement; and so it should be having completed the hardest quest in game to get a dagger.

One thing the khanjari does nice I must confess is that you don't die from ripostes as much. Prior to having the dagger my rogue reuired more healing than the tank in most zones :(.


I guess im the only one who finds something wrong with that...

I can't believe people are saying its NOT overpowered :P

But then again....

Sarell wrote:I have several rogues.
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Postby Branthur » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:24 am

Umm, Nurpy... a good ele or chanter can solo DS. Saying that a rogue can duo DS with one of these says absolutely nothing of the weapon. Next time you quote sarell, you might want to leave this part out as well..

"Most other classes can do DS with a chanter as well..."

As to the weapon itself, it is definately a powerful weapon. So is Deathknell. It is definately on that level of power, maybe even a bit more..which is appropriate for the quest. It SHOULD be one of the most powerful weapons in the game at this time.

That being said, I do think that it should be looked at again..as Ashiwi has already stated, the fact that many people have rerolled that certain combination of race/class/gender/alignment definately shows that it definately needs to be evaluated.
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Postby Waelos » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:18 am

Hello.

Shevarash - I've sent you several emails that outline just how and why khanjari dagger is over powered. I've seen the same sentiment echoed several times here on the boards. I know the khanjari quest, yea its hard. yeah it should be a decent reward. . .but for the sake of all that is holy.

Straight up, give me a khanjari over any weapon I have. I have a lot.

I would dual wield khanjari's over _any_ weapons in the game.

Valhalla? Supposed to be the primo weapon in the game, but it is a joke compared to the Khanjari dagger. Especially now that the scepter was downgraded.

Prots mean jack. Especially to a ranger who's using his bow every so often and can't rely on the scepter's prots anyway. You have to wear all prots elsewhere, just like anyone else.

The dice are slightly better than the dagger, but I'll take +10 +10 over an extra 2d6 _any_ day.

125hp vit/heal stacking proc versus a 50 hp random cure crit? Hrmm. .. which is better?

And something everyone seems to forget is that Valhalla is effective only in the off hand. that is 1 or 2 attacks with it per round, if you're lucky. Oh yeah, maybe 3 with reverse swing. *yawn* that proc is about as effective as the straightback dirk.

You can dual wield khanjari's. . .how many Uber top End Weapons can be dualed? Moonblade is too heavy. . .couldn't have dual procing moonblades! same with windsong. If those weapons, which pale even moreso in comparison, can't be dual wielded, then why can khanjari's?

I've chatted with a fair number of people, and if restrictions were not in effect, everyone I've spoken to would wield the dagger. Warriors, rangers, hell, even a couple of anti's I've talked to would wield the dagger over their weapons. Only thing that comes close is the Unholy avenger!

The response some people like to give is: Go roll a rogue then! Hah! yeah, lets have everyone who plays a hitter just go roll a rogue so they can be on par with the other hitters in the game because of one overbalanced item. Doesn't work, I'm afraid.

I have quite the collection of weapons and I would trade any of them for a ranger usable khanjari.

Swiftwind? Fun, but only procs 1/8 minutes. Positive energy is a nice touch.

Windsong? Ugly, weak. 3d4 and the blur proc has been tweaked and neutered so much who knows how it works anymore. Work for half elves? doesn't work for them? works better for greys? *shrug*

Musp Scimitar? last I checked this heald 1/2 of the damage you did randomly with one proc and did cold damage with another. It used to blind, but doesn't anymore. Compare to the khanjari? nope.

Blade of Light? *laugh* The procs are cool in theory but the theme and execution of the weapon are kind of off. A blade made of pure energy being *strength* critical hit based? uh. . .ok go figure. The rate the good procs go off is horribly infrequent, even when wielded primary getting 3 or 4 chances a round.

Crystal sword? uhm. . .lightning bolt? Oh yeah, blazing beam during daylight hours (1/2 the day or less) which is hardly special damage it does to mobs is less than my lvl 39 invoker does with blazing beam. Lost its perm levitate too.

Serrated War Axe? I think it is pretty. . .but at the moment it is broken so I don't know how good it is. I do know it isn't dualable without MAX str! hheeh

Those are the weapon's I have bothered with. . . other weapons don't even fit into the picture. 2h weapons are silly now. they aren't +8 +8 like they should be to balance out with 1h weapons. Anti's wield Unholy. It is scripture. Pallies have more variety, but nothing that compares to Khanjari. Maybe Old Ambran did at the height of its power.

So really, to my knowledge (limited as it may be) there is no weapon that comes close to providing the same boost to its intended class the way the khanjari dagger does to rogues. rogues don't even need to wear hitroll eq anymore because they can _rely_ on getting the +hit proc to go off!

Add this to an already overpowered (in my opinion) class and you get a mixture that is just screaming for downgrade.

Had Khanjari been a warrior weapon I sure as hell don't think you'd see nearly as many complaints.

Want to Balance Khanjari? Here are my thoughts:

1) Kill the whole proc stack thing.

2) Make it weight 14 so it is not dualable.

3) make the vit proc just that. a single vit (stackable ontop of another vit from a cleric, for example)

I think that would make it powerfull enough to justify the quest and also give other people a chance to do the quest, cuz everyone won't be trying to do it twice =)

So, I've given these thoughts before, but this is a fresh forum and I hope they're reexamined again.

Thanks for your time.


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Postby Sarell » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:44 am

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:
I guess im the only one who finds something wrong with that...

I can't believe people are saying its NOT overpowered :P

But then again....



Agree Wey, khanjari would be awesome in the hands of a tank, fortunately it is !tank or it would be over powered. I personally think it is much harder to do than those other weapons and as someone stated it only yields one item unlike those other quests. 2d6 extra dice certainly isnt something to be snuffed at either, that's perm extra 7 damage. I do as I pointed out in the last big khanjari thread however, feel that weapons overall should be upgraded and there should be more great weapons available, but that's an areas thing...

PS, soloing DS atm with my chanter, getting good exp, there is a bard here soloing aswell! *gasp* DOWNGRADE DS! :P
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Postby oteb » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:26 am

Fully agree with sarell.
I have two khanjaris worked my ass for them (done quest 3 times since i lost one of them to crash). What khanjari means to me is that i dont have to run away scared when i am getting atacked by level 45 mob. I can solo a little here and there but nothing spectacular. I am still LONG ways from things elementalist can solo on regular basis. And i am not talking about Inama even, rather decent but still standard issue elementalist. Hell, i can even solo more with my lich i've never learned to play on semi decent level.
Tho i agree that evil human females get a little too big of a boost. forced double proc and forced vital strike on each proc is a tad too much. Maybe think of removing either and leaving the other.

Dont change khanjari make cool weapons for other classes(warriors and rangers that is. pallies and antis got really decent toys already)

edit:typoes and such
Last edited by oteb on Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:24 pm

Shevarash wrote:Ashiwi, your concern with an abundance of female characters and female only eq is a valid concern, but not really related to the khanjari. If you think there isn't enough male-only eq to counterbalance the female-only stuff, write a zone and put some in.


I would have to write an entire zone based around one piece of equipment in order to make the points to create anything comparable to the khanjari. Even then, it seems kind of pointless when no matter how many zones there are in the game, the staff can decide to rewrite a single piece of equipment with such heavily biased alterations specifically geared for such an already favored combination. I'd wonder why in the world people want to continue to encourage all players to roll female characters, if I didn't figure that most people in the know are already playing female characters because they know the bonuses to it. That makes you wonder why they'd continue to increase the gap between the two genders when they already know what it is now, though. When you already know one particular "meaningless" stat gives a bonus over its only counterpart, why continue to enhance that particular stat over the other? From a player, I could see this happening, because a zone is written to a player's tastes and the equipment will reflect that, but when it comes from staff who are already aware of the discrepancy, then questions about it really should be asked.

I know it seems silly that I should harp on this particular issue, but character identification is very important to many players who might choose to mud over playing other online games. In races and classes, character identification can be built over time as a player adjusts to their growing skills, but, excepting very rare cases, gender identification is going to be immediate. Encouraging players and potential players to play characters which will never be more than the better choice of tool in a game lessens our field of potential long-term players, catering to the power player over those who develop more personal attachments to the character they play.

Maybe I'm the only one in the game who wouldn't play a male character... because I couldn't identify with a male character and I don't really want to try. If the situation took a complete 180 tomorrow, I'm not sure what I'd do... but my options would NOT include re-rolling as a male. I already chose the option of going with a good alignment, against all "advice" and grey elf, simply because that's something I enjoy playing and I know the character will play with more personality than if I attempted to go against my own grain on a long-term basis. Maybe it means nothing, but identifying with this character has kept me here, in one main character, since the beginning of wipe, and has kept me fairly happy with it. Sure, I'm not the best player out there and will never pretend to be, but I'm a recognizable name, and being able to recognize even one name amongst a sea of new and unfamiliar ones does tend to breed at least a small level of comfort for some returning players. I believe the ever-widening gender gap discourages players who prefer to build long-term identities within one primary character, because in this game they are either encouraged to roll one particular gender (and there's really good odds that it's not a gender the player can identify with, in this male-dominated world), or they just have to deal with being sub-par.

And you can't tell me that there aren't any guys out there who build characters that they identify with, and play them as a real character... I've seen plenty. Maybe Gormal and Touk would have been able to put as much into their characters as females as they did playing males... but something tells me it just wouldn't have been the same. One of the many reasons they played with such zest was because they found characters they could identify with, and their personalities colored the mud in ways ansi never could. It seems to me that we would want to attract more players like this, because they make the game more enjoyable for all. Sure, there are those who will play the under-dog 100% of the time simply because that's the combination they identify with, I know that reasoning well, but is there really a point to making it more and more discouraging in one of the most basic identification factors?

There's my main reasons for believing that this game does not need any more encouragements for female characters to be the better choice when rolling. In this case, "building a zone" isn't the answer, because this particular reason was created by the staff and it's doubtful that any single player could create enough incentive in a handful of zones to reverse this tide. I know that power players aren't going to understand this reasoning at all, because they're all about the advantages and how they can be used, and in this issue I really think the advantages should be stripped away. There are more types of player than the power player out there, and having long-term, recognizable names in the pbase gives it a greater social stability. Character identification breeds mud-social stability among these players, leading to longer character life, which can be an asset to the power player as well.

Now, the rest of you do feel free to continue on with the other issues, such as race, class, and power.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:34 pm

8)

For all you know, Gormal and Touk are female now. You can narily tell with those dorfs. The women have beards and low gruff voices as well as the men.


As for more equipment that benefits females: Isn't there more than enough reasons to be a female already? You can already try to pretend to be a female and get presents from other male players by being all flirty. Why add more reasons to encourage this?
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Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:32 pm

>Ashiwi has already stated, the fact that many people have rerolled that certain combination of race/class/gender/alignment definately shows that it definately needs to be evaluated.

BS. it shows that a certain segment of people will reroll chars to have what is or they perceive to be the most powerful race/class combination. If human rangers got a weapon > windsong/swiftwind a bunch of elves would reroll as human. THERE ARE EXTREMISTS AMONG US WHO WILL DO ANYTHING SO THEY CAN BRAG ABOUT HOW THEY ARE BETTER THAN YOU.

new rant:

Ashiwi you could easily write a new item into the game that had as many points as khanjari.. write a zone, add a quest make khanjari a turn in add some more crap and voila.

new rant:

Ashiwi I agree with some of what your saying about character identification because yea it would be a more fun game if more people identified with their chars and RPd ect. it seems to me however that your saying you should make all choices equal so that people won't have to be conflicted by their desire for power and loot vs their desire to have a character that they want to play based on their personality.... People dont have to reroll they dont have to play female chars but they do so to gain a competitive advantage. they choose ZONE power over RP power.

To say that we could retain players better by encouraging char identification is probably true. We could probably retain a lot more players by adding depth to the game new zones, new eq, new weapons that proc better for specific race/class/alignemnt/gender combos. The type of people who are hardest to retain are those that are always want a new shiny a new zone a new challenge will not be happier with fewer khanjariesque items in the game and will move on faster once they have beaten the game. You have to keep raising the bar for these folks, implementing even more fuctarded ass loading quests to keep them interested. As far as retention goes, people who build character identities are gonna play regardless of what you do in game short of completely gimping their character. Also, basically the whole RP sphere helps you build relationships with your character, I don't see why this should spill over into the ZONE side of things. I will never get a restring or a tailor made piece of eq no matter how many zones i do. Why should i be limited on what i can get from zone side of the game so that more people can "build relationships" with their characters aka RP.

new rant:
how can you compare tiamat eq to khanjari. Khanjari quest has 1 reward, tiamat has 5-8+ depending on which ones you want to count. Tiamat took one afternoon, as many as about 18 hours on one of the trips. Khanjari takes a lot of rare loads, rare load quests, and the final mob is rare. I'd be surprised if you could start khanjari from scratch, acquire all the components and quest it within 4 weeks even playing 60 hours a week.

I know a lot of us have sentimental value for tiamat and we think it should have the best eq in the game, but that way has come and gone, we have an OBJECTIVE eq/zone calculator so toss all your preconceived notions aside this is a different ball game. Its not based on sentimental feelings or philosophical discussions of the most powerful creature in the dnd world. its not about difficulty, uniqueness, or anything other tha how many mobs you have to kill.

new rant:
there is more than one thread on how melee does shit damage compared to spell damage specifically invoker. so a weapon gets impd that raises the amount of damage all rogues can do, and our response is downgrade it cuz it favors evil female human rogues.

You guys are so silly, instead of looking at this as a chance to reimplement weapons of power the likes of which we haven't seen in 10 years, you bitch and moan and we'll be stuck with freaking 5d4 4/4 2h swords and ebonies for another 10 years.

how is it a problem that the weapon has depth to it working differently for different race/gender/alignment combinations? How would it be a problem if it only worked for one specific race/alignmnent/gender combination? Do you want all elven, barbarian, dwarven warriors wielding the exact same weapon? Or do you want to see rock crushers and swiftwinds with khanjariesque power?

seriously stop being jealous, go write zones and quests and imp weapons of power. Maybe melee classes will be able to have fun again.
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Postby Branthur » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:24 pm

Selective post editing..I love it. Kiryan, for some reason you decided to ignore the part where I said..

"...It SHOULD be one of the most powerful weapons in the game at this time. ..."

I said it should definately be looked at again. Personally I think some of the procs might need to be tuned down a bit (for those that are a bit slow, that's an opinion) I don't know everything about the proc. I never seen the "eq calculator". The fact that one has to do just as much for a dagger as a person has to do for Kerns quest and all its rewards means that it SHOULD be powerful. And, I think that because many have rerolled it gives a sense that there could be some imbalance. Note the word could there. Maybe with some of the new zones coming in, maybe with some of the melee changes that are coming (yes yes, no comments on timeline..enough gripes or jokes have already been made), the dagger will be balanced, and so no changes need to be done. Balance-wise. I think Ashiwi has a point with the gender issue. She's already spoken to that, so I don't think I need to repeat it.

No need to rant and rave because someone said something might need to be looked at.
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:26 am

I agree with kiryan totally on the RP vs power zoning thing. The weapon could have been made female only instead of just beefing the proc a bit on them. Sure there are some people who made female chars just for khanjari, I wouldn't have made mine cept I had just read Magehound series and the female human rogue pwned so incredibly hard combined with the proc effect. I still stand that dorfs on either side are still better rogues, working a good dorf atm. Totally agree with finding it bizarre that people complain melee is weak and then when they try out some cool weapons everyone jumps on them. Weapons in sojourn are pathetic, I alway imagine we all run around with pin sized weapons wondering why we cant hutr anything. I love the idea of huge epic weapons being part of a melee class rather than just stacking up a stock standard set of earring and baubles, get some counterparts to khanjari happening. Only think I can hope for is that someday each class might have a selection of them :) Kinda like 2h warrior weapons can be to a degree, cept even more so!
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:53 pm

kiryan wrote:You guys are so silly, instead of looking at this as a chance to reimplement weapons of power the likes of which we haven't seen in 10 years, you bitch and moan and we'll be stuck with freaking 5d4 4/4 2h swords and ebonies for another 10 years.


I don't want weapons of insane power. I like to believe that it takes some skill to play my character(s) as well as I think they're played. Weapons of this magnitude just let any old mediocre player do some insane shit and come out looking like they know what they're doing. I'm all for a selection of weapons for each class--every rogue should not want to wield khanjari, every bard should not want to wield glaives. Give us a few weapons that are worthwhile and let us give some variety to our class, hell yeah. But weapons along the lines of khanjari aren't the answer IMHO. Personally, I think weapons like the bard glaive are perfect--powerful but not insanely so. Make some more weapons with this level of power for the melee classes (especially for the two rogue classes) and get some variety up in here.

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