an email to koss (slightly edited for content)

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
amolol
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an email to koss (slightly edited for content)

Postby amolol » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:06 am

please mind the gramatical errors and misspelled words. thank you please respond to this post with at least some dignity.


This is prolly the last person you want to hear from. but here goes any way. my point on GCC today was that all the classes on toril mud save dires and rangers have a set of skills that make them usefull imediatly weather they have eq on or not. for mages its either damage or protections. clerics can cast a heal anytime they want as long as they take 10 or so seconds to mem the spell . warrior CAN tank without equipment on tho it is not very often that they do. but for that matter niether is it often you see a mage or cleric without eq either. rogues bards and battle chanters all have the ability to sneak and hide. which allows them to walk into most aggressive places and drag corpses and or lure mobs if they need to... this to can be accomplished without equipment tho in most cases is not reccomended. anti/paladins are not exactly the best cantidates for tanking nekid but they do it better than a ranger/dire would. paladins also have the ability to cast heal on themselves in a pinch. which makes them more valuable that a ranger as well as getting layhands and life drain or whatever the anti skill is. at this point your proll thinking apples to oranges. but belive it ornot i do have a valid point. rangers when nekid have absolutly no value to the mud. they cant CR a corpse. they cant heal or spell up a tank... youve seen how good most rangers tank with EQ on let alone myself. my point being the fix to a ranger is not buffing up archery or fixing melee. granted those things would help. nor is it giving them better eq or more spells that have little effect on things. granted some of the spells we have when used right are very effective. they mean crap to the rest of the mud. what rangers need is an actual defining skill that takes NO eq to use effectivly. i realize that this doesnot fit the jack of all trades theme. but that is the required fix for rangers and dires. .... now your prolly thinking you can carve bows and arrows... roll up a ranger set it to lvl 50 and wait at the computer until you have carved 100 arrows and a bow... then 2 rounds into battle let your carven bow breaks... you are now effectivly just as useless as you were b4.

right now if you have gotten this far your prolly in the mood to delete me but thats ok... if you do ill just roll up another char.

now that i have had an uninterupted chance to explain this you prolly still think im a piece of **** who deserves to rot in hell... but at least ive had a chance to prove my point... a copy of this email will be posted under game discussion... it will be slightly edited for content.

Amolol
Terry Grigsby
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Postby Kossuth » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:19 am

Amolol,

I don't think that about anyone. :P
Kossuth -- TorilMUD Administrator

Astine OOC: 'ask not what I do to your mom, ask what my mom will do to you'
amolol
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Postby amolol » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:25 am

not even larem?

sorry just seems that the general attitude towards me lately has been eat **** and DIE.

5 years of this crap... could you guys give me at least 1 day of a break to gather my thoughts for however else i decide to play.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:26 am

Well, Amolol, I hope no one feels good after they've told you off.
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Postby amolol » Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:54 am

every one always feels good after tellin me off... im convinced its my purpose... happens irl too... just that i get summer vacation and can hide in my room most of the time. btw now that you have had a chance to actually look at what i was trying to say earlier does it make a little more sense now?
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Postby ssar » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:17 am

There have been many, many discussions and posts in this BBS (and others) regarding rangers in the era of the game of TorilMUD.

I'm sure all the Immortals know this, and I beleive some have indicated that Rangers have been examined/discussed at length by various Admin and coders and are certainly on the "agenda" of things to tweak in the game.

Browse past posts and threads in this BBS for some previous such discussions, if you wish ;)

It is worth noting that I seem to recall several such very constructive discussions with much significant input from many folks including some of the more experienced Rangers (e.g. Sylvos, Treladian, Belleshel, Thalidyrr (er, did I say Thalidyrr? Boggle..;), Waelos etc.) with a whole host of amazing ideas.

I also beleive that very thorough testing, playing, and examining your class's capabilities, right from lower level exp, to the highest level hardcore zoning, as well as considering constructive advice from other experienced ranger players, can help in gaining a better overall understanding, in some cases.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:36 am

Rangers need to stop having LFG togged when they are afk and they will get to zone more I assure you.

I'm not sure why what you can do nekkid is a valid point, but spob is one zone that we bring rangers to always. Mages can't do anything naked, they need a spellbook on storage. Put a cheap bow and quiver of arrows on storage?
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:49 pm

amolol wrote:not even larem?

sorry just seems that the general attitude towards me lately has been eat **** and DIE.

5 years of this crap... could you guys give me at least 1 day of a break to gather my thoughts for however else i decide to play.



I don't think I've ever told you off Amolol, and I've told, and continue to tell, a lot of the people here where they can cram it. I actually think you're an alright guy, who has an uncanny knack for not talking down to people. Something I personally appreciate very greatly. I thank you for that. :)
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Postby amolol » Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:38 pm

sarell the point was if any class isnot wearin EQ (doesnt matter what they have in their inv) they are still useful in some way. rangers and dire raiders lack that distinction.
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Postby amolol » Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:39 pm

sarell the point was if any class isnot wearin EQ (doesnt matter what they have in their inv) they are still useful in some way. rangers and dire raiders lack that distinction.

sesexe... thank you fore caring... its the people like you around that make it comfortable to be on this mud.

also as a side note ppl keep ttellin me rangers go to spob all the time.... so... when do i get an invite?
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Postby Treladian » Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:56 pm

Sarell wrote:I'm not sure why what you can do nekkid is a valid point, but spob is one zone that we bring rangers to always. Mages can't do anything naked, they need a spellbook on storage. Put a cheap bow and quiver of arrows on storage?


SPOB is a horrible zone to use in discussions of rangers. Ranged is only useful as a combat tool when you don't have good hit/dam gear and weapons and SPOB is the only place I know of where you can actually get +5 or better arrows (and hence completely ignore missile shield). Getting the same amount of +4 arrows SPOB gives you would take 9 zone trips to a place that really doesn't have any other reason for other classes to want to keep going back to it.

Anyway, I believe what Amolol is trying to get it at is that having some function of the class actually be useful even without quality equipment would be nice. A mage may need their books, but it doesn't really matter if that book is a newbie one or came out of a zone. Ranged combat is THE most equipment dependent special class ability in the game, more dependent on it than normal melee combat in some ways due to the need to repeatedly farm arrows that are easily lost. Something that even a lesser equipped ranger could do well would help lessen the gap between a high level but relatively new ranger and one that's better armed than the militaries of most third world countries.

Back to the main topic, suggestions for non-combat related abilities aren't anything new. However, it's mainly died down while we wait to see what comes out of the attempt to bring melee and spell damage back into balance and typically isn't as favored of an approach as a focus on improving combat.

Most of the suggestions for non-combat abilities useful to a group center on the fact that rangers are supposed to make excellent scouts in pretty much every fantasy setting you find them in. These have ranged from suggestions of simply giving rangers sneak/hide (and there IS a firm basis for this. Rangers in D&D have stealth skills on par with rogues in most environments and surpassing rogues in wilderness ones) to my idea of giving rangers and dires some ability or spell that lets them see more than one room ahead. Since rangers/dires can normally target and fire on a mob more than one room away, we presumably have SOME method of detecting them and I'm pretty sure I'm not using the Force or aiming by smell . . .

These kinds of abilities would be useful in zones with lots of mobs that wander or are drawn to fighting where you don't want to charge in blindly. However, most experienced rangers that are still around favor melee combat focused upgrades since that has traditionally been the strength of the class and what is used most often.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:56 pm

Sarell wrote:I'm not sure why what you can do nekkid is a valid point, but spob is one zone that we bring rangers to always. Mages can't do anything naked, they need a spellbook on storage. Put a cheap bow and quiver of arrows on storage?



Imphras nekkid week. Now that was a lot of fun.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:22 am

amolol wrote:also as a side note ppl keep ttellin me rangers go to spob all the time.... so... when do i get an invite?

when u learn how to play your class
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: an email to koss (slightly edited for content)

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:53 am

amolol wrote:Blah blah blah blah blah blah "...but belive it ornot i do have a valid point. rangers when nekid have absolutly no value to the mud. they cant CR a corpse. they cant heal or spell up a tank... youve seen how good most rangers tank with EQ on let alone myself" ...blah blah blah blah.
Amolol
Terry Grigsby


First point of order, stop the pity party. Second, nobody is forcing you
to be a ranger. if you don't like it, don't play one.


Some points of interest you may or may not like, but as they are truths
must be adhered to:

1) You mentioned naked tanking. naked or not, you have the ability to
cast a spell that provides DAMN decent ac for 1 spell. (provided you
are at a decent level). At mid-level this, combined with the fact that
a comparable warrior would have parry/dodge at NEAR the same
proficiency. Not to mention that the agility/dexterity of an elf (which
most rangers are for use of certain items and abilities) you have
a better natural ac. Yes this does come at the cost of hp, but there
has to be some drawback besides "nancing" to being an elf. And with
new zone additions, being stuck on the island isn't that big of a
setback any longer.

2) Besides the obvious, at 46th level you get a neat ability that no other
class that is flagged as a warrior sub-class gets. By virtue of a spell
you can prevent monsters from tracking you. This paired with archery
is a VERY nasty combination.

3) As a self preservation ability, the "natures blessing" spell is one of THE
best protective spells, bar none.

4) Neat swords that are ranger only that proc bonus attacks for extra
damage on a moderately difficult quest.

Overall, yes, warriors seem to be superior to all other warrior sub
-classes. This is nothing new. They have the best hp, which make them
the best meat shields as it is now. That paired with skills like shieldpunch,
rescue, and bash make them VERY desireable if not required for a good
group. ALL of the other warrior sub-classes suffer from this same affliction
that rangers have. Yes paladins get lay hands and avenger, yes antis
get deathknell and lifetap (both weapons are on more difficult quests,
ESPECIALLY deathknell, but that is beside the point). Bottom line they are
a bit different, and add variety. Nobody is forcing anyone to play these
sub-classes. If you have issues with your place in life, or in toril, it is your
right to post your opinions here, but it is also our right as other players
to show you where you are mistaken, or possibly just not looking.

Ultimately, i believe it is in melee damage that the problem lies. Or the
lack thereof. With the "bonus" attacks granted for being elf with high
dex, or with ranger sword, or even at level 10 when rangers are the
first to get dual wield, the damage increase isn't significant compared to
what spells can do. That gap is never bridged for any class. Warriors
tank partially as well as they do because they use a shield. In order
to dual wield as rangers do, they would have to forfeit that shield,
providing some semblance of balance in that regard. An uppage of
damage across the board is a good start.(with a few exceptions i've
mentioned in other posts including the fact that daggers as a whole do
WAY too much damage, AND that 2h weapons have piss poor dice
compared to the 1h weapons in the game) is a good start.

Bottom line: If you think the ranger is lacking to this degree, don't play
one.
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Postby amolol » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:25 am

just for refrence i dont hate or dislike playing a ranger... but i would like to see some things fixed about them.

delmair the point of the statement i made was not about ranger only weapons or sole ly comparing there abilities with a warrior or any other class for that matter... it was a statement that all other classes have 1 thing that they can do nekid or not that set them appart from all other classes while still making them an asset to the group. if you want to look at it in a very crude form a ranger is a paladin with less hp less healing worse innates and a bow and arrow... essentially in very crude unthought through lamens terms thats what a ranger is... im sure as you know -100 ac only goes so far... there are xp mobs out there that crit for more hp than amolol the charictor naturally has... a critical hit means nothing to AC. that aside please read the statement in delmair and this time try to take all of it in instead if just little bits and pieces that you think might be relevant...

i do apreciate all of the feed back im getting on this... and welcome any serious ideas that would put rangers on the map with skills that wouldnt put another class out (such as sneak/hide). and no archery isnot that solution so pklease no archery or melee upgrade things unless they are really helfull.
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Postby Lilithelle » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:16 am

Why you'd write to kossuth for this i don't know, i don't believe this is his area, he's probably just the only god that can stand to listen to to gcc and respond to whats said.

Amolol if i may ridicule you on gcc its because your attitude not the points of your arguements, though i tend to find those a bit unbalanced. I have also advocated changes for rangers, I do believe they need a boost when you see how many people want to play rangers. Lots of newbies start them, breaks my heart to know the future that lay in store for them.

I sometimes deliberately don't take spellbooks with me when I CR as Inama because I want the added challenge during the CR, as always any character is useful naked all they need is a brain.

Delmair please don't suggest rangers should be casting the barkskin spell, it is a pale immitation of druid bark. Always use an authentic druid barkskin(tm).
Lil - lover of nature classes.
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Postby amolol » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:51 am

i wrote to koss because he was the only admin i saw at the time and he was moderating the particular convo.

as to when you "ridacule" me on GCC its usually towards sarcastic coments. and as to any class being usefull when nekid or not all they need is a brain... ok i agree with that to a point.. but not all of us are super players... sure i can learn things and can adapt... but that doesnt mean i will ever be half the mudder that you are ore belleshell or weylarii or anybody else... i am purely a mediocre player tho i constantly strive to better myself... no that isnot a negative attidude it is how things are. i just simply dont commit enough to the mud as a whole to be the player the elites are... and i am not good enough at gaming to be the player most are... ive had my good and bad moments and some have been blown way out or perpotion... but that aside i think everyone has those just not everyone is able to look at a class and be uber at it.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:48 pm

while you have fresh ideas and don't have the mental blocks that 10 years of playing this game have brought on the rest of us, you pretty much have a noobie understanding of your class and no insight into the capabilities and limitations of the other classes in the game.

rangers don't have a group defining ability but they are far from useless... they are grease in the group's wheels that can make things go more or less smoothly in some zones. Elementalists dont really have any group defining abilities however they have a lot of grease, silences, embody, ward, stone... a good elementalist makes everything seem easier but no one knows why (they get no recognition), a bad one makes the group more spank prone and again no one really knows why. A good ranger knows when to rescue, knows when to forgo damage and help bash, knows when to use and not to use archery, when to wear an extra 300 hps or 50 ac. A good ranger is self sufficient and not a burden to the group... half the time you invite a ranger to a group to lure (their most unique group desired skill) they dont even have a bow or arrows and are in general completely unprepared to play. Its like inviting a warrior to group and he doesn't have resuce triggers or a shield.

Become a good ranger and a fun person and zone groups will abound, piss off everyone with ranger whines and you will sit at 3w even if you roll a group defining class.


....

they don't need a naked ability. I see what your saying in that pretty much every other class has something they can contribute while naked, but really why do you ever need to be naked...you can woodcarve a bow and arrows. A warrior is not very effective naked, cant use parry, shieldblock, bash or shieldpunch truly naked. People have CR gear, they have backup books, put a quiver and bow in storage.

im 100% for rangers getting outdoor sneak + hide and possibly seeing rogues take a hit on outdoor sneak + hide

im 100% for rangers getting trip in deference to bash, bash requires a shield which basically makes a ranger choose between its job damage and utility bashing also since you CANT PUT ON A SHIELD WHILE ENGAGED IN COMBAT, they have to decide before the shit starts hitting the fan rather than as a response to events.

im 100% for archery being less cumbersome. eliminate this get forced into melee crap except when tanking, create a way for rangers to switch back to archery while already engaged without a huge lag penalty. Either allow arrows to be recovered in the event of crash, or make good arrows much more plentiful like loading at rate 100 instead of 4 (i know that sounds like a lot, but name one other piece of equipment you have to bid that you would expect to lose in the event of a crash?), selling missile shield busting arrows at a cheap price in a home town, or an unlimited quiver / arrowless bow.

im 100% for rangers to become much better at scouting. They need an escape ability for those lures and scouting times gone bad. what good is a scout that dies or lures a spank?

im 100% for rangers to become better lurers. They need to not miss their lure target or take too long to lure (a definitive success message would be nice), not strike other targets and/or in other rooms on accident, not be bothered as much with room size ie its very difficult to lure mobs from other rooms when all rooms are size 500 ft. THey need large quantity of arrows that are capable of luring shielded mobs. THey need to be able to get back to the group after a successful lure...

im 100% for a ranger khanjari even though I'd much rather see rangers focus on archery which is less burdensome to the group (no globe, no haste).
Last edited by kiryan on Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:18 pm

amolol wrote:delmair the point of the statement i made was not about ranger only weapons or sole ly comparing there abilities with a warrior or any other class for that matter... it was a statement that all other classes have 1 thing that they can do nekid or not that set them appart from all other classes while still making them an asset to the group. if you want to look at it in a very crude form a ranger is a paladin with less hp less healing worse innates and a bow and arrow... essentially in very crude unthought through lamens terms thats what a ranger is... im sure as you know -100 ac only goes so far... there are xp mobs out there that crit for more hp than amolol the charictor naturally has... a critical hit means nothing to AC. that aside please read the statement in delmair and this time try to take all of it in instead if just little bits and pieces that you think might be relevant...



Comments like that is what makes you look... pretty stupid actually.
I just explained above exactly why your opinion bolded in your quote
above is wrong. They are different, yes, and rangers aren't as good
at some things as paladins such as healing, but they excel in other
areas that paladins dont. Mainly damage in terms of call lightning
(paladins have little spell offense), vig spells, natures blessing, etc.
The "lay hands" ability mentioned is available once per 24 minutes.
Also paladins have a HUGE negative on them, 1) they MUST be human,
and 2) they MUST fight evil aligned mobs to get exp. So stop looking
at one aspect and look at the big picture.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:52 pm

a ranger is a source of damage and a lurer. The only marginally valid comparison is to a rogue.

however, i still find your description of a naked palading as useful or the class as a whole as more useful is completely erroneous. your paladin without a horse is a wasted group slot as is a ranger without a bow... even with a horse

you can not ride from outdoors to indoors (and indoors to indoors i think )meaning you have to disengage walk into teh fight then mount before you get hit.
you must disengage to use lay hands on someone else (or at least you used to)
they have no spells worth casting in zone that you don't already have access through a cleric
They are considered a tanking class yet don't tank as consistently a warrior although properly eq'd in specific situations may outperform warriors.

Basically, the only thing that makes paladin's group worthy is holy avenger.


now a real comparison would be rogue vs ranger.

sneak+hide lure vs archery lure - rogue more consistent and actually safer considering archery misses, archery hits that dont lure, a couple zones do favor archery luring (ic2, spob)

sneak + hide vs pwt - rogue sizeable advantage, ranger can only use in nature and is subject to agroing mobs and taking sporadic damage which cure critic really doesnt compensate for.

damage: circle vs archery - high end eq favors rogues and circle at present, arrows are lost too easy, can hit things you dont want it to hit, but rangers dont need haste and globe, archery tends to ignore mobs defensive skills. Rangers are never in skill lag as a result of doing damage while rogues are constantly in circle lag.

evasion to natures blessing - dont know, probably similar except the rangers ability is cumbersome while rogues ability is always on.

critical strike + trip vs bash - not cumbersome for the rogue must sacrifice circle damage (< 50%), ranger must sacrifice 50-75% (dual wield vs archery) of its damage and prepare in advance as you cant equip a shield while already engaged in combat.


amolol stop running your mouth. stop thinking of yourself as the only person who can fix rangers.

better rangers with more experience at playing a ranger and other classes and zoning have dedicated yeras of their life to playing this game and trying to get fixes to little avail. Staff is 100% aware of the ranger issue and have for at least 2 years been "looking at" and "working on" the problem.

You wanna fix rangers, learn to code and convince shevy to make you a coder. Short of that nothing you do really serves any purpose other than demonstrating your complete lack of insight.

God I find that I dislike the people who play rangers more than the class. Rangers are uber on some muds, lame on others, but the players tend to be the most annoying people on the mud. Drizzt can solo an orc horde why can't I. I should be able to shoot a dragon in the eye and kill it with one shot. bleh
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Postby Ambar » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:15 pm

buahaha the world according to Kiryan :P

hehehe who loves ya Mike :P
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Postby amolol » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:24 pm

you must have missed the part about woodcarving bows and awrrows... do you have any idea how long that takes?. a mage with a good scribe skill could get all necicary spells into a set of books b4 i can carve enough arrows quivers and bows to last me through a zone. the bow will prollt break 2 rounds in. that aside i actualy have a very good idea of what my class can do... i almost always have a shield on me ready for bashin i always have enough arrows to lure somthing. yes i have a rescue trigger i dont have an extra 300 hp but i do occasionaly switch my damage rings out for amy's. so saying that. im more saying this for those who have less of an understanding than me. no im not the best ranger out there... however im not exactly the worst.


as to the archery thing rangers are actually trying to avoid becoming an archery based class.... or havent you read all the ranger archery threads out there

yea i cant directly fix the problem but i can adress some of the issues out there kyrian. which is what i have done... this email did not start as a complain nor in my views has ever become one... it waqs an observation... as to the comparison of rangers being like an elementalist woa buddy have you got to think that one over again. yes rangers get bash and rescue... rescue comes as a little skill lag nothin big there... but to use bash we sacrafice half or more of our primary skill. yes rangers do smoothe things down a little... so do elementalists. but if your gonna think about that... what does an elementalist hafto sacrafice to be "grease" in a group? as i have not played the elementalist i might not be right on this but it seems to be that in a group most times they swap a few spells out and become no worse off then they were b4 by doing that... in zones they dont use elementals they have prettymuch just traded an elemental for a warrior... mebbe one with fire or air embody...

delmair like i said it was an extreemly crude look at it. fisrt of all holy word > call lightning. sure paly's only get lay hands 1 per 24 hours... know what out 1 per 24 hour innate is? forage... who got the bone there? paladins also hget heal... rangers dont... no rangers dont hafto kill ONLY evil aligned things but they do hafto stay good alighned. now your back to the whole apples and oranges thing.... look like i said... it is in a very crude non well thought out view that rangers = bad paladins.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:14 pm

can you at least use proper grammar and spelling when you write? reading what you say is like listening to you talk, which is probably why people like to flame you.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:20 pm

I still dont understand how you are comparing a class that specializes in tanking to a class that specializes in causing damage. even in a crude very ridiculous way it in no way resembles an intelligent thought.

Wood carving sucks yes, but they can do it naked and your big gripe is that rangers have 0 capability naked... BTW while those mages are scribing up a book you can run down to BG and buy 500 arrows and a bow for cheaper than it costs to scribe spells. Also, since were still talking about what you can do naked, did you forget you can cast spells too? Bless, bark, call lightning, pwt, invis, di, dm, vigorize critic, sleep... Oh btw they can too heal, they get cure critic at 8th circle.

anyhow, it seems stupid to me to have two classes that focus on melee damage in the exact same way except one does it with daggers the other does it with swords. If your gonna remove archery, you might as well remove rangers and just give rogues ranged. The direction that half of the suggestions take us in create so much skill overlap with rogue that its sick. I have not seen a suggestion yet on how to make rangers more unique.

I have listened to a bunch of jaded, i gave up on archery a long time ago players saying they want to avoid becoming an archery based class... but why, its becase its cumbersome, has glaring problems, and with a constant stream of suggestions over several years no real code changes have occured. There is not a single good philosophical reason to ditch archery based on what i have read. At best there is a functional justification, however, im sure no one is saying rip out archery and leave everything else the same so either way its basically gonna take code.

Why on earth would you want to give up a unique skill? What a glaring gap between DnD and Toril would it be for rangers to have no bow skills.

Quite frankly too much time and energy has been put into archery, the suggestion to rip it completely out is ridiculous from a philosophical and a practical standpoint.

Rangers absolutely need archery to make them distinct and unique from every other class in the game. Enc don't like spelling up hitters. There is very obviously a niche for luring that does not occur in the same room as the target. Archery very obviously does more damage and has a semi unique ability to ignore defensive skills and magic resistance. even with store bought arrows and a bow you do significantly more damage with archery than any sword available to a ranger today.

You can not fix rangers by removing their only unique skill; you can however clone rogues by removing it and focusing on swordplay. sneak and hide Every class needs unique abilities, and I will fight vehemently against ripping out a truly unique skill despite how cumbersome it is.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Re: an email to koss (slightly edited for content)

Postby Yasden » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:31 pm

amolol wrote:Terry Grigsby


Now I have to go $!&#ing change my last name so I'm not even somewhat related to you....*SIGH*. Anyone got a pipe cleaner so I can purge this information from my brain?

Deathmagnet
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Re: an email to koss (slightly edited for content)

Postby Kossuth » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:37 pm

Yasden wrote:
amolol wrote:Terry Grigsby


Now I have to go $!&#ing change my last name so I'm not even somewhat related to you....*SIGH*. Anyone got a pipe cleaner so I can purge this information from my brain?

I thought you guys were twins...
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Postby Yasden » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:46 pm

Funny, we used to think that about you and Kia...

Oh wait, we still do.
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You rock Kiryan

Postby Abbayarra » Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:12 am

You said what I've been thinking and unable to bring all together Kiryan. You rock, now someone just has to go and code it....
ex-ranger part time player.
BTW.. rangers need equipment for archery and melee damage, someone like me is better off playing a spellcaster because I don't have the time to get really good equipment and spellcasters can do everything they need to do without that great equipment.
Once again, you rock Kiryan
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:55 am

amolol wrote:delmair like i said it was an extreemly crude look at it. fisrt of all holy word > call lightning. sure paly's only get lay hands 1 per 24 hours... know what out 1 per 24 hour innate is? forage... who got the bone there? paladins also hget heal... rangers dont... no rangers dont hafto kill ONLY evil aligned things but they do hafto stay good alighned. now your back to the whole apples and oranges thing.... look like i said... it is in a very crude non well thought out view that rangers = bad paladins.


Ok, highlighted above in your quote are your errors. And i'll leave the
grammatical ones out.

Item 1, holy word > call lightning? vs evil, sure. Vs any other alignment
and they laugh at you.

Duh, but you don't loose exp for killing good aligned things either. So
in effect, if you don't mind spending time in SS or goblin caves here
and there, you don't have much of a restriction there.

You didn't even bother addressing the idea that you MUST be human
to be a paladin.

And, to whomever it was that was comparing rangers to paladins or
rogues or whatever it was above, for rangers to switch to a shield
and bash is much like it is for paladins. But even worse. Worse
because not only do you have to dismount to bash, but you also
cannot wield a 2h weapon which decreases your damage significantly.

I am now going to stop reading this thread, because obviously someone
cant get it through their head that they aren't touching on anything new
here. Stop wasting your breath.
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Postby Treladian » Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:16 am

kiryan wrote:Why on earth would you want to give up a unique skill? What a glaring gap between DnD and Toril would it be for rangers to have no bow skills.


Just needed to comment on this. There is virtually NO DnD precedent for giving rangers any sort of skill with bows or other ranged weapons. Previous to the 3.5 rule revision, NO ranger has ever received any sort of bonus to using ranged weapons without the use of a kit or prestige class, and the latter are typically as viable for fighters willing to dip into skills they normally don't take.

Ranger didn't exist in plain D&D (and neither did anything besides fighters, clerics, and mages).
1st edition AD&D rangers just got bonuses against certain types of enemies.
2nd and 3rd edition rangers just got two weapon fighting skills and a bonus against player chosen enemies.
3.5 just lets them choose between the two weapon fighting focus and a ranged focus.

The connection between rangers and bows has nothing to do with D&D. It comes from all the Lord of the Rings fanboys and has NOTHING to do with D&D before 3.5.
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Re: an email to koss (slightly edited for content)

Postby Ambar » Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:23 am

Yasden wrote:
amolol wrote:Terry Grigsby


Now I have to go $!&#ing change my last name so I'm not even somewhat related to you....*SIGH*. Anyone got a pipe cleaner so I can purge this information from my brain?

Deathmagnet


and yes i hadda ask the question on ooc last night RyRy :P
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Re: an email to koss (slightly edited for content)

Postby Tasan » Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:37 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:
Yes this does come at the cost of hp, but there
has to be some drawback besides "nancing" to being an elf. And with
new zone additions, being stuck on the island isn't that big of a
setback any longer.



Comments like that is what makes you look... pretty stupid actually.

!!x
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:47 am

While this is not relevant to the merit of the issues being discussed, I feel compelled to note that Amolol has gone through a lot personally recently.

Delmair, being human is no longer a negative - it enables you to get more base hit points and, in your case and many others, group with evilraces.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:59 am

I'm here to tell you all that you have it all wrong.

I'll even address you by name.

Amolol,

For starters, I would like to point out that having your own pity party invites those who pity themselves and those who like to crash pity parties through sarcasm and insults. You should be trying to bring all of the good people into your life, not the nay-sayers and morons.

While I see the point you are trying to make about ranger usefulness, I'm here to say that you analysis of the ranger class is completely wrong. I will explain why as I continue to chew up the other members who have posted to this thread.

Sesexe,

You rule. But I think it's because Amolol talks on his knees. Sometimes people do have to stand up straight and speak aloud, reguardless of the direction in which the people that are listening are.

Delmair,

If there's any class that is allowed to complain, it's the class that can't play. Rangers are one of the most difficult classes to enjoy while on Toril. To counter your points: 1) Grey Elf Warriors 2) Next Room Ranged Combat rarely results in any significant damage. Once spent 500 arrows taking the knight on ship down to few wounds. 4) One sword. Elf Only. I would also like to point out that the daggers in player usage outmatch the 1 handers in capability and popularity.

Oh, and call lightning is easily sundered by minor globe.

Kiryan,

Although not 100% correct, you da man.

Lilithelle,

TelforBARK(tm) is 100% guaranteed, else your arse is 38% rescued :)

Dalar,

Bad Monkey.

Moritheil,

We all go through a lot personally, and thats why a lot of us play the game. All of us need to simmer down sometimes and have some more respect, be it artificial or genuine, for our fellow players.

Kossuth,

No Comentates.




Ok. Now I'm going to tell you a secret about the ranger class.


Rangers are not useless.


For CR's

Fire up the Pass Without Trace. I know it only lasts like three minutes, but you can do so outside of the zone where all the corpses are (where it is nature), then march into the zone for a classic Teflor GTFO Corpse Retrival. Sometimes it helps to be invis as well. Sense life gives you an excellent heads up as to where the bad things that poke you with sharp objects are.

Anti-Flee

Mob looks awful!
Mob flees to the east, where other horrible bad things might squish group!
wield recurve
fire mob east
"AARRRGGgggg ...dead"
whistle innocently

Avoiding Mori-Spank

Whenever a group is about to walk into a huge fight, suggest attempting to lure a mob or two. Sometimes, if you watch between those who track in zone, and those who track globally, you can split up potentially deadly duos into two easy fights. Oh, and specifically for mori-spanks, flee, sneak, natures b, PWT, invis, sense life, and RUN. Run like the wind. Run like only rangers can run. It's a good thing you can't rescue really well, 'cause you'd be in a crapton of trouble if you could.

Tanking

When spelled and equipped properly, rangers can tank. Groups MUST adjust accordingly when a ranger tanks, however, blinding mobs, or bashing them, etc. As the ranger doesn't quite have the reflex rescue that warriors develop.

Dealing Damage

By far, dualing good one handers is your best option for damage. Hitting equipment and proper spellups (haste, natures b) are a must. There are ways of getting yourself what you need for all of this. Rangers do do decent damage and competent ones are welcome to tag along with most zone groups. Tag along meaning they have an open spot that can't be filled and no one else can come along.... but this does happen.


Ranger Improvements to make it a balanced class.

1) Upcoming melee changes already being implemented.

Please don't make these the huge ranger downgrade melee changes int he past have been.

2) Hide Outdoors

There's no reason a ranger couldn't hide outdoors.

3) Ranger only Equipment

There isn't any and needs to be some. (windsong is ranger and elf only. Teflor is a human ranger.)

4) Shelter Outdoors

Creates accelerated healing and resting rates out of doors.

5) Implement Trap

It's been sitting there for quite some time.

6) Implement Ranged Combat

Why can't any ranger hit anything out of the room except for the first volley?

Anyhow, that's all for now. Flame on!
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Postby selerial » Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:21 pm

3) Ranger only Equipment

There isn't any and needs to be some. (windsong is ranger and elf only. Teflor is a human ranger.)

----

Bows and arrows?
Quivers don't count, but no other class can use bows and arrows outside of rangers.. and there are even spanky/neato bows too, if difficult/rare to get.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:01 pm

moritheil wrote:Delmair, being human is no longer a negative - it enables you to get more base hit points and, in your case and many others, group with evilraces.


Last i checked this was still a temporary change. We shall see what
happens in the end.

and teflor, last i checked enchanter was harder to enjoy than ranger.
But yes, ranger life is tougher to some than the life in a different
classes shoes. Does this give them the right to bitch for the last 5+ years?
I don't think there is much of anything that gives them that right.
And you are 100% right about those daggers. Daggers do the best
damage in the game, period. Why this is, is quite beyond me, but
a completely seperate issue. How bout we wait til melee changes
go in, and see where we're at before we go whining all over the place.
And if you feel so inept as a ranger right now, play something else
for the time being.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:30 pm

I said that rangers are not useless.

I'm becoming quite capable of handling my class. I am also not whining, I am constructively suggesting changes and why they should go in.
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Postby Treladian » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:42 pm

selerial wrote:Bows and arrows?
Quivers don't count, but no other class can use bows and arrows outside of rangers.. and there are even spanky/neato bows too, if difficult/rare to get.


In case you haven't read what all the non-amolol rangers have been saying, ranged combat = sucky waste of time and endless source of frustration. The implication was for ranger-only stuff actually worth using. As it is, ranged equipment is basically like a cleric only titanium ring. There's not much point since you can just get something better without too much effort (ie, getting melee damage to surpass ranged). Oh, and with one of those rings having a chance to lose a certain percentage of the hit points it grants when you use it.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:20 pm

last comment,

adding a bunch of "in nature" type skills will do very little in making rangers feel they have something to contribute... Consider druid gripes earlier in the wipe about nature/!nature and their damage, sunray, ect.

Rangers need something they can do consistently well to be invited to zone groups...

they don't tank consistently
archery is not a consistent damage source
archery is not as consistent as rogues at luring
skills like pwt are not as consistently available as ones afforded to other classes.

I suggest that archery, damage+luring, be their consistent skill and people stop dreaming up things to give them things that will not be available and useful in every zone.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:40 am

Kiryan,

Rangers tank very consistantly. They just cannot be relied on for rescues.

Archery IS a consistant source of damage when properly utilized, however, not worthwhile when you lose all your good arrows to a crash or a spank.

Archery is just as consistent as a rogue for luring, and if not, a ranger can manually lure just as well as a rogue in most circumstances. In fact, archery is much more useful than a rogue for luring in many situations.

I agree however, that PWT is a little whack, but I don't believe it was the intent to provide the Rangers bread and butter. Seeing as how we only get it once we hit 46, apparantly, Rangers must do something until they get to that point.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:53 am

Consistent tanking or not, nobody would bring them into a group over a
warrior at ANY time. Regardless of their lack of ability to rescue well.
Bottom line, warriors tank better. Mounted antis/pallies tank better.
Problem here is more of a "niche" requirement than justification of
being.

And on a related note I think archery would be much cooler if every
damn mob didn't have missile shield.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:56 am

rangers tank? hahaha that's a good one
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:50 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Kiryan,

Rangers tank very consistantly. They just cannot be relied on for rescues.


its a matter of hps and having shieldblock. Im obviously talking about at a zone level, rangers are not tanks for exp or otherwise. In a pinch with enough defensive spells, wearing hp and ac, they can tank a mob, but to be a consistent tank you must be able to tank multiple mobs and a whole room when necessary. They do not have the hps nor enough defensive skills to survive more than 1 or 2 rounds when scales drop in a zone encounter.

teflor the ranger wrote:Archery IS a consistant source of damage when properly utilized, however, not worthwhile when you lose all your good arrows to a crash or a spank.


agree but the fact that you first must have great arrows, can lose arrows to crash or to random shooting in the wrong directions make archery a troublesome damage source. and again talking about 15 man zone groups, not exp... archery is not presently something you use throughout a whole zone therefore inconsistent.

teflor the ranger wrote:Archery is just as consistent as a rogue for luring, and if not, a ranger can manually lure just as well as a rogue in most circumstances. In fact, archery is much more useful than a rogue for luring in many situations.


no its not, you don't have to wonder if the rogue hit the mob it may take several volleys to tag a shielded mob with archery. a rogue can control whether or not he brings multiple mobs in most situations, an errant arrow can agro mobs completely by accident from several rooms away. there are very few situations where archery is better than a rogue for luring and they are SF, IC2, and SPOB. IC2 is even debatable with its monstrous rooms. Archery needs to be at least as consistent as rogues are at luring.

teflor the ranger wrote:I agree however, that PWT is a little whack, but I don't believe it was the intent to provide the Rangers bread and butter. Seeing as how we only get it once we hit 46, apparantly, Rangers must do something until they get to that point.


pwt trace is a very powerful skill but again the inability of a ranger to use it at will causes it to be less than an afterthought when considering whether to invite a ranger to do anyhting. Also because it doesnt protect you in a way like hide does, your uses for it are fairly limited.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dugmaren » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:29 am

Rangers can't tank as well sure, but when 4+ things switch in a round, and a ranger can rescue and hold one off the casters for a couple rounds, you better believe it's effective.

T
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Postby oteb » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:33 am

Dugmaren wrote:Rangers can't tank as well sure, but when 4+ things switch in a round, and a ranger can rescue and hold one off the casters for a couple rounds, you better believe it's effective.

T


Agreed. It's always better for a ranger to die than a chanter or cleric.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:38 am

Dugmaren wrote:Rangers can't tank as well sure, but when 4+ things switch in a round, and a ranger can rescue and hold one off the casters for a couple rounds, you better believe it's effective.

T


Why bring a ranger to tank 2 rounds when you can bring a warrior? For damage? hahaha
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby amolol » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:09 am

ok i pretty much left this thread alone bacuas i didnt like where it was goin... i come back and start reading low and behold all of you ppl that bashed and critisized me b4 have just said the same thing that started this thread.. thank you mori for the support and thank you teflor for using me as an example of a non well attuned player... as i am one... delmair your still thuck skulled and not getting it.. kiyran im glad to see that you agree with me.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:54 pm

amolol wrote:ok i pretty much left this thread alone bacuas i didnt like where it was goin... i come back and start reading low and behold all of you ppl that bashed and critisized me b4 have just said the same thing that started this thread.. thank you mori for the support and thank you teflor for using me as an example of a non well attuned player... as i am one... delmair your still thuck skulled and not getting it.. kiyran im glad to see that you agree with me.


Umm, no. I suggest you re-read. I had written a bunch more, but i
really don't want to make you feel anymore stupid than you already
look for posting this.
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Postby Kossuth » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:48 pm

So glad this stayed on topic. Bye now.
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