Lichs talking about Lichs, undeath, and the dead. (updated)

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Llaaldara
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Lichs talking about Lichs, undeath, and the dead. (updated)

Postby Llaaldara » Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:00 pm

This thread is exclusively for dedicated Lich players who spend 50% of their current, or past (as in when they used to play), online time logged in as their lich character to talk about relative matters in a relaxed fashion.

If you consider your main character your lich, this is a thread for you, or if you’re a big fan of the whole undead theme thing.


First Topic: Poison

Until recently I had always believed that a lich should be immune to poison. It was a widespread feeling amongst other lich players for some time here. They are dead, why should poison affect them?

Well not too long ago I had an epiphany about this topic. I was reading about skeletal undead when I realized, a lich is not skeletal undead. Many images from D&D have often made the lich appear skeletal, but according to the rules, they are in fact, not. Even in literature I’ve read, novels and such, they are not skeletal. Even the great Lord of Darkon from Ravenloft wasn’t skeletal, and in fact, when he switched bodies from one host to another, he would choose recently dead victims. Repeatedly it was said that a lich needs a corpse to inhabit after it leaves it’s phylactery. A skeleton is not a corpse. I believe the term corpse, refers to a deceased creature that still has flesh.

So what does all this mean?

It means, a lich has internal organs. It means a lich has flesh. Flesh, and internal organs are susceptible to poison damage. Well, living flesh and organs are that I’m aware of. I personally am uncertain if a poison would in fact affect dead flesh or organs. Any biology folks out there know the answer to that one? If poison does no damage to dead flesh/organs, then is this an over site by D&D? For in no D&D material that I have access too, or can remember reading, is the lich ever listed as being immune to poison. It’s simply not there.

Skeletal undead are distinctly listed as being immune to poison, as they have no flesh or organs. Therefore, since a lich is apparently not skeletal undead (according to rules and literature, not imagery mind you), I would have to agree that all lichs on the mud, player and mob, should be susceptible to poison damage of all types (natural and magical).
Last edited by Llaaldara on Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:46 am

I played the role of a skeletal lich. Never-the-less, liches don't have any functioning organs. Their heart doesn't pump blood, their lungs don't draw in the oxygen necessary for arobic respiration, the cells don't need oxygen, food, or anything for that matter. The entire body is rotting and would fall apart if it wasn't for the massive necromantic powers holding it together. This is why DnD undead are immune to critical hits, poison, stun, mind affecting powers and most anything that requires a fortitude save. This is also why undead often have damage reduction in DnD, due to the fact that regular wounds aren't nearly as devestating to them.
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re: First Topic: Poison

Postby Nekelet » Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:55 pm

I concur with Ythera.
Poisons most commonly have two forms - those that 'infect' via the blood stream, and respiratory. It could be argued that the respiratory ones are in fact circulatory as well as the lungs are rather efficient at transferring gases to the blood.

Circulatory, whether ingested or introduced through the skin would have little or no effect, as the blood isn't flowing. A Toril specific example of the lack of blood circulation is the dagger plunging bit at the conclusion of the lich quest. The way I read it, there is little or no heart remaining to pump...

Respiratory, similarly should have no affect since the Toril lich is most certainly not breathing; asuming of course that the fact that PFG and WB items are not required indicate lack of respiration.

Finally, the fact that a Toril lich cannot eat, drink, or sleep indicates that the body is non-functional in any biological sense. The bottom line - all of the systems, and indeed the very cells that could be affected by poison are already shut down - Short of physical damage, how can they be made 'more dead?'
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:13 pm

Not a lich, but played tabletop Ravenloft for quite some time. Similar
argument to most other undead. For all "biological" purposes, the undead
are truly dead. I concur with Yaya and nekelet. With no circulation, or
no respiration (btw, its aerobic not arobic), poison shouldn't do much
damage. The REALLY funny part about liches and undead, is that liches
get that neat spell "living rot". In the description, maggots come and
"envelop the enemies in the room and help accelerate their decay by
causing massive damage". Realistically, maggots only eat dead tissue.
So this spell should do little or no damage to the living, and a TON to
undead! Medically they have been used for years to help with wound
healing!

Just my .02

As far as magical poison, who knows, magic is magic. I never saw
"poison" as a magical thing, hard for me to fathom it in that fashion.
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Postby Treladian » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:04 am

Guess I'll pop in using the "fan of the undead thing" ticket here.

Yayaril wrote:This is why DnD undead are immune to critical hits, poison, stun, mind affecting powers and most anything that requires a fortitude save. This is also why undead often have damage reduction in DnD, due to the fact that regular wounds aren't nearly as devestating to them.


Actually, this isn't quite entirely true. The designers have said that it's not just lack of discernible organs and such that make undead, constructs, and other similar creatures immune to some of that stuff. A nasty blow with a blunt instrument that cracks bone could be quite similar to a critical hit on a more fleshy creature after all. And not all undead have non-functional organs either. Vampires still need to digest blood somehow, morhgs have their animated digestive tract, etc. A hemotoxin would not be something a vampire would want to come into contact with. It's really as much of a game mechanic thing as it is a flavor thing. Since undead in 3rd edition have no consitution modifier boosting their hitpoints, a critical with a scythe or axe would be far more devestating than it would often be otherwise. And blanket abilities related to creature type make it much easier for people to come up with new forms of undead without having to nitpick over every little detail about them.

Anyway, back to the original subject of poisons and undead, the sticky issue is that different poisons work in different ways. A neurotoxin targets nerve and brain cells, hemotoxins affect blood cells and related cells, etc. Neurotoxins would pretty much have no effect on undead in general. Negative energy controls them, not nerve impulses. Hemotoxins are a bit of a tougher issue. Corporeal undead tend to have bones and bones contain marrow and other materials related to blood. An agent that causes these cells to be destroyed could cause some structural damage (they may not be functioning anymore, but they're still there as support structure). And this is just dealing with animal venoms. I have no idea how mineral and other inorganically derived toxins work.

However, all this is even further complicated by the fact that unlike most undead, liches still continue to decompose, albiet at a much slower rate than normal. Demi-liches are formed when even the skeleton of a lich decomposes and all that remains is a head. So a lich of advanced enough age could be much less affected by various attacks on their tissue than one that is much younger.

This level of complexity is probably not something the staff here wants to deal with. Toxicology and cellular biology are really things above the scope of the MUD and most games. It can go either way depending on how the people in charge of a game view how these things work. IMO it's more important that they stick to it across the board (ie, anything that doesn't affect mob liches doesn't affect player liches without a really good explanation).
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:12 am

They got rid of lycanthropy for liches a while back because liches have no blood to contract the virus? Why not poison too!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:17 am

Poisons that affect the mind seem to be a matter of philosophy. The toxin could affect the brain, but could it affect the mind? If the lich gets a new body every now and then, do they use the brain or simply carry over their mind as part of their general essence? Is there a poison that is able to actually affect the mind or a spiritual essence (including the mind). Also, it's my understanding that someone who tries to read a lich brain will go nuts because they can't handle what's going on. Would the toxins affect a lich brain like a regular brain? So many questions. I honestly have no answers to these questions. What do people know about how lichs use bodies?

It's just a game, but I'm curious.
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Postby Artmar » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:28 pm

Seeing as Lich can exist indefinitely within its phylactery, and switch through bodies of different states of decay, it would seem that its mind is separate from its physical body. Rather, the Lich is a spiritual entity, and body is used only as a medium to interact with physical world.
Agreed, there are undead that posess some degree of metabolism (ghouls and vampires being most obvious) but in Lich's case the body is completely dead (and from the descriptions i've seen or read it's in most cases at least partially dessicated - more like a mummy without bandages).
Most natural poisons should not be able to affect such a body. In fact, most of the magical ones shouldn't work as well - seeing as without air or blood circulation most common options of spreading a poison throughout the body are out. As i see it the only possible agents would be strong acids (including holy water) - preferably in large quantities, or some (magical, obviously) substances that would affect spirit directly. Hmm, come to think of it, some kind of bacteria that accelerates decay might also work (though to have an effect within any reasonable time, it'd likely have to be magical)
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Postby moritheil » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:18 am

Poison works by disrupting natural biological processes. In fact, that is pretty much a working definition of a poison.

Since the undead are not at all dependent on natural biological processes, there isn't any real reason poison should affect them.

For that matter, being backstabbed shouldn't affect them any more than being normally stabbed, because it's not like they need their heart to not have a hole in it . . . except for aesthetics, maybe.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:56 pm

True Mori. I believe in 3rd edition they mention that undead are not subject to critical hits/sneak attacks.

So the question still remains. Was this an oversight by D&D?

It appears that most players of the game include the lich in the undead-that-are-immune-to-poison group.

But this gives rise to other questions. If a lich's body doesn't work because it's dead, then when you hit it with a sword, what are you causing damage too? In most sources, the lich is immune to weapons without atleast +1 enchantment. So is their flesh magical, even tho dead? Or do you need magical weaponry to hit the lich because you are hitting it's soul's attatchment to, or control of, the corpse/host?

What is a lich's hitpoints based on exactly? If it is just how much damage their host body can sustain before it is so damaged they can't control it.. Should they be different for each host body a lich has control of? What if a lich was normally a very small man, and this time his host body is of a large barbarian from the north. Would the lich have more hps then? What if the lich was powerful enough to control a giant size corpse?

In terms of controlling corpses of diferent states of decomposition as a host, isn't decomposition a form of damage? What's the difference between a one legged one armed fresh corpse and a skeleton to a lich? Is there a difference? If there isn't, then why does any damage (to a degree) directed at the host body (only) affect the hitpoints of a lich at all?

Right now I'm thinking: you need magic to harm a lich because it is attacking the magical connection the lich has over the host to control it. In effect, you are disrupting that control. This control allows the lich to leave it's normal home (phylactery) and anchor itself into a temporary host (corpse). Because of this thought, any natural unmagical attack forms should be complete ineffective against a lich, and so this would include nonmagical poison.

Thoughts?
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Postby Treladian » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:10 am

Llaaldara wrote:What is a lich's hitpoints based on exactly? If it is just how much damage their host body can sustain before it is so damaged they can't control it.. Should they be different for each host body a lich has control of? What if a lich was normally a very small man, and this time his host body is of a large barbarian from the north. Would the lich have more hps then? What if the lich was powerful enough to control a giant size corpse?


It's important to understand what hit points really represent here. Hit points are defined abstractly as a measure of how well you can avoid fatal damage. They're not a measure of how many severe beatings you can take before expiring, they're also measure of how well you can still make those beatings less severe. To quote the 3.5 edition PHB, "Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill." This means many things. While just being tougher physically obviously would contribute to this, so does having learned to roll with the blow as you've gained experience in combat, being able to perform a last minute parry at the expense of stamina, and not getting exhausted to the point where you can't get out of the way quickly as easily. Sections in the DMGs that have given advice on how to describe combat have advised the DM to say things like "The sword grazes your arm and draws blood, but you dodge the brunt of the blow" and similar things to reflect that the victim isn't horribly mangled every time they get hit.

So a lich possessing a larger body might have a more resilient form, but the lesser ease of dodging blows in a form they're not as used to could justifiably prevent any change in hit points. A giant's body would actually be impossible under D&D. Lichdom requires a humanoid base creature. Giant is a different creature type.

In terms of controlling corpses of diferent states of decomposition as a host, isn't decomposition a form of damage? What's the difference between a one legged one armed fresh corpse and a skeleton to a lich? Is there a difference? If there isn't, then why does any damage (to a degree) directed at the host body (only) affect the hitpoints of a lich at all?


In terms of the "natural" decomposition a lich goes through in the process of slowly becoming a demilich, the negative energy still keeps the lich quite whole IIRC. Turning into a demilich in full seems to happen quite suddenly when it's time.

And a one legged, one armed corpse would be pretty useless to a lich since they wouldn't be able to move easily with one leg and wouldn't be able to cast spells requiring somatic gestures with just one arm (and one leg. Since all sorts of creatures that don't really have arms can learn to be mages, theoretically you could learn to cast spells using feet instead of hands. It's happened in one novel). In game terms, the lich would be immobile on the ground, have a big dexterity penalty, and at the very least have to make some sort of check (probably dexterity) to work any spells requiring somatic gestures. They would probably still have full hp though since if they could get themselves mobile (for instance, a flight spell), they'd be back to being able to avoid fatal blows again (and if I were DMing, I'd also negate their dexterity penalty for the lack of limbs).

Right now I'm thinking: you need magic to harm a lich because it is attacking the magical connection the lich has over the host to control it. In effect, you are disrupting that control. This control allows the lich to leave it's normal home (phylactery) and anchor itself into a temporary host (corpse). Because of this thought, any natural unmagical attack forms should be complete ineffective against a lich, and so this would include nonmagical poison.


The current monster manual describes the reason for a lich's damage reduction as being there just because the body is tough, not because you're attacking a magical connection. Non-magical, non-bludgeoning weapons can still harm a lich, they just have a much harder time of doing it (damage below a certain amount is just ignored).

Additionally, there's no mention of possessing a host body anywhere. It just mentions that the body itself reforms if the phylactery isn't destroyed. Dracoliches are able to possess bodies other than their own, literally transforming the body into a proper one over time (ie, a behir corpse grows wings and loses legs), but dracoliches don't follow the rules for humanoid liches.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:16 am

moritheil wrote:Poison works by disrupting natural biological processes. In fact, that is pretty much a working definition of a poison.


Actually, hemotoxins at least work by causing blood cells and their ilk to lyse. Osmosis is more of a chemical process than a biological one. And if you cause anything supporting something else to burst, then whatever is being supported is going to be affected, including if the support structure consists of dead cells. The question is if there are any toxins that work by causing any of the cells in bones to lyse or otherwise structurally deteriorate, plus figuring out if the negative energies binding a lich's body are strong enough to resist it or not.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:52 am

Treladian wrote:Additionally, there's no mention of possessing a host body anywhere. It just mentions that the body itself reforms if the phylactery isn't destroyed. Dracoliches are able to possess bodies other than their own, literally transforming the body into a proper one over time (ie, a behir corpse grows wings and loses legs), but dracoliches don't follow the rules for humanoid liches.


-From Advanced Dungeons & Dragon's Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, vol. 2.

"A lich's body is merely a corrupted, decrepit, temporary vessel for its soul. Destroying the body merely releases its soul to its true resting place: the lich's phylactery..."

"...The only way to destroy a lich completely and irrevocably is to destroy its phylactery. The lich is trapped in a curious predicament in the storing of its phylactery. If its body is destroyed, the spirit instantly becomes trapped (or secured) within the amulet and remains there until it is able to secure another body."

Furthermore:

"Generally, a lich is able to attempt taking possession of a body from its phylactery, but only a corpse can be possessed. The body must lie within 60 feet of the phylactery for the lich's essence to reach it."

They note that the lich can only attempt to take control of a corpse once per corpse. The corpse makes a save against death magic to resist at the corpses once living level.

Now they also mention that DM's should see fit to change these rules as appropriate, such as allowing a lich to take control of another undead as their host instead, destroying the spirit of the undead it takes over; or having unlimited range to find another suitable corpse to control, etc.

As for resisting damage, this is what it says:

"As with many undead things, nonmagical weapons inflict no damage upon the lich. If that weren't enough, it takes a sword master of considerable experience to find the soft spots and "make them bleed," so to speak. The density of magical energy concentrated within a lich's being is so great that it takes a weapon with magic and a well-trained arm to harm it. This is not to say that nonmagical weapons and inexperienced warriors cannot strike the lich's form; rather, their weapons appear to be thrown back as if they had made contact with a stone too dense to scratch. I recall one instance in which a rambunctious young blade-wielder of some renown stabbed the skeletal form of a lich between the two bones of its forearm, which were open to the air due to its advanced decay. With an idle twist of its arm, the lich broke the youth's blade in two, then slew him."

Doesn't sound like he's avoiding anything. Sounds like magical power that keeps him from being hurt, not battle skill. In addition, lich's are undead mages, not undead warriors. I'd argue that their high hit points and resistance to damage is based on their magical connection to the negative plane, not their ability to 'avoid fatal damage' as you mentioned.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:31 pm

Llaaldara wrote:-From Advanced Dungeons & Dragon's Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, vol. 2.


Okay, this is going to be a big problem. Yaya and I are using 3rd and 3.5 edition rules. You're using 2nd edition rules AND a campaign setting that alters core rules. A big problem in 2nd edition was that the rules from one campaign setting often didn't apply to another. Both Ravenloft and the Forgotten Realms have options for undead that aren't core. We're not going to be able to have a discussion of undead mechanics like this.

Doesn't sound like he's avoiding anything. Sounds like magical power that keeps him from being hurt, not battle skill. In addition, lich's are undead mages, not undead warriors. I'd argue that their high hit points and resistance to damage is based on their magical connection to the negative plane, not their ability to 'avoid fatal damage' as you mentioned.


Then how do you explain how a mortal mage gains hit points as they level up? They might not have as much skill in battle as other classes, but they certainly have some that makes them harder to kill. In any case, I never said that skill in battle is the sole factor in hit points, ONLY that they're not soley some sort of physical constitution that makes you able to take more stabs to the chest. My exact words were:

While just being tougher physically obviously would contribute to this, so does having learned to roll with the blow as you've gained experience in combat


Oh, and some liches are undead clerics, who certainly DO have skill in battle despite being spellcasters.

Anyway, for reference, he's the entry for liches from the 3.5 edition SRD:

"A lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life.
A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones. Its eyes have long ago been lost to decay, but bright pinpoints of crimson light burn on in the empty sockets.
Liches speak Common plus any other languages they knew in life.

CREATING A LICH
“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery; see The Lich’s Phylactery, below.
A lich has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
Armor Class: A lich has a +5 natural armor bonus or the base creature’s natural armor bonus, whichever is better.
Attack: A lich has a touch attack that it can use once per round. If the base creature can use weapons, the lich retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A lich armed with a weapon uses its touch or a weapon, as it desires.
Full Attack: A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a touch as a natural secondary attack, provided it has a way to make that attack (either a free hand or a natural weapon that it can use as a secondary attack).
Damage: A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.
Special Attacks: A lich retains all the base creature’s special attacks and gains those described below. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.
Fear Aura (Su): Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell from a sorcerer of the lich’s level. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich’s aura for 24 hours.
Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).
The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Spot check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive..
Spells: A lich can cast any spells it could cast while alive.
Special Qualities: A lich retains all the base creature’s special qualities and gains those described below.
Turn Resistance (Ex): A lich has +4 turn resistance.
Damage Reduction (Su): A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2. Being undead, a lich has no Constitution score.
Skills: Liches have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.
Organization: Solitary or troupe (1 lich, plus 2–4 vampires and 5–8 vampire spawn).
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature + 2.
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; double items.
Alignment: Any evil.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +4.

LICH CHARACTERS
The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. A lich retains all class abilities it had in life.

THE LICH’S PHYLACTERY
An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.
Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.
Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items."

Note that the process of reanimation for a lich is now just having its body reappear after a few days without the need for other corpses.
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Postby Llaaldara » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:10 am

Treladian,

I'm sourcing all available material I have. The 3rd edition rules you just quoted, I have access to as well. I was looking at 2nd Ed Monster Manual entry, Ravenloft books, Ravenloft novels, and 3rd edition Monster Manual. I do agree that 2nd edition had differences between the campaign settings, and it's because of these differences that allow more detailed explanations of specific material.

If I wanted to know more about Psionic abilities, I'd read the Darksun Psionic suppliments which expanded heavilly upon the generic psionic rules sytem first presented (as well as re-defining those rules since they were found to be drastically overpowering).

Currently I'm talking about undead, lich's inparticular, and for that yes I'm going to use the Lich handbook (re-printed in the text reference I supplied) and other relevant Ravenloft suppliment material in order to address the deep issues of this discussion. A 1-2 page entry compared to a 50-100 page book tells us very little, don't you agree?

In addition, I believe the rules for a Lich in 3rd edition are subject to a difference in interpretation.

In this 3rd Ed entry it mentions "a lich reappears in 1d10 says" but this lacks any information specifically. Does the lich in it's former corpse reappear in 1d10 days? Or is the lich back in a new host but talks and acts the same (effectively coming off as the same entity), in 1d10 days? My point is, that's open to intrepretation, and to add to that, there is similar wording of this in the 2nd edition suppliment I was quoting from. That from an adventurer's perspective, it does appear the lich is back and nothing happened in so many days afterwords.

From what I've read of 3rd Ed, they like to take a piece here and a piece there as they pleased to create the new system, while leaving gaping holes simply subject to the DM's interpretation. Because of this, I find it more feasable to argue and discuss D&D rules/system from the 2nd Ed.

(I'll finish responding to the rest once I can, at work and stuff came up :\)
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Postby Ambar » Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:19 am

this is sounding more and more like the *i know more about certain editions than you do*

*no i do*

*no me*
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Postby Treladian » Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:00 pm

Llaaldara wrote:Currently I'm talking about undead, lich's inparticular, and for that yes I'm going to use the Lich handbook (re-printed in the text reference I supplied) and other relevant Ravenloft suppliment material in order to address the deep issues of this discussion. A 1-2 page entry compared to a 50-100 page book tells us very little, don't you agree?


Not necesarily. I would trust the 1-2 page expansion on liches in the Monsters of Faerun supplement more than I would anything from Ravenloft source books when specifically dealing with liches in the Realms. While I certainly do like the flavor put into some of the 2nd edition supplements, they don't always make for good source material in other campaign settings. Much as I loved the Thri-Kreen of Athas book, there's no way I would have been able to apply a lot of the stuff in it to Thri-kreen in the Spelljammer setting or even the limited tribes that run around the Shaar on Toril. Ravenloft's guide to various monsters is more universal than that, but still can't be considered canon for other settings without the DM saying so.

In this 3rd Ed entry it mentions "a lich reappears in 1d10 says" but this lacks any information specifically. Does the lich in it's former corpse reappear in 1d10 days? Or is the lich back in a new host but talks and acts the same (effectively coming off as the same entity), in 1d10 days? My point is, that's open to intrepretation, and to add to that, there is similar wording of this in the 2nd edition suppliment I was quoting from. That from an adventurer's perspective, it does appear the lich is back and nothing happened in so many days afterwords.


And this also means that there's no validity or invalidity to the theory that liches possess corpses to reanimate. It winds up being the DM's call since there is no set way to do it. Additionally, since FR has Baelnorn and other good aligned liches, requiring the possession of another corpse (in essence stealing the last possession someone has) wouldn't really fit as a method of lich reanimation.

From what I've read of 3rd Ed, they like to take a piece here and a piece there as they pleased to create the new system, while leaving gaping holes simply subject to the DM's interpretation. Because of this, I find it more feasable to argue and discuss D&D rules/system from the 2nd Ed.


When you read histories of D&D that talk with people that have worked on multiple editions of D&D now, they often mention how something that contributed to TSR's downfall was having too many different settings with different rules. With a limited amount of gamers with a limited amount of cash to spend, this led to a lot of division and confusion. This thread is an example of this: I don't consider any of Ravenloft's rules to apply to any setting other than Ravenloft since I know that Ravenloft did a lot of tweaking to undead and other traditional horror monsters in order to try to compete with White Wolf at the time. Some of this still exists with 3rd edition, but at least the decision to let other game makers produce the less-standard fantasy settings while WoTC focuses on more "traditional" settings (Eberron stretches things a bit, but still does fit) means that things are more consistent from game world to game world. That doesn't mean I'd allow an FR Baelnorn into an Eberron game though.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:08 pm

Not trying to get involved in this argument, but toril is supposedly based
upon FR rules. So anything that is specific to FR (believe something
was mentioned above) would probbably be most accurate for an FR
setting. But, this mud isn't exactly based on 2nd, or 3rd edition rules.
As i see it, the argument above has only proven one thing, that there
are different interpretations. Toril might even have their own inter-
pretation that could be a combination of the above, or nothing at all
related. I admire the detail that the lot of you went to in finding this
information, shows you are committed to getting an informed opinion.
Much better than many voters in the US! =P

Anyhow, thats my thought...

Delmair

(isn't it wierd that this isn't a grumpy post? so unlike me!...)
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Postby Treladian » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:50 am

Just as a quick followup, while I was home over the weekend, I looked up a few entries in my 2nd edition Monster Manual. It said even less about how a lich reanimates than the 3rd edition books. Not even a time frame is given, just that it's not really dead if the phylactery is still there.

In any case, anything I've said may be rendered null in a few months when WoTC puts out their book dealing with the undead (Libris Mortis). I would still be surprised if Baelnorn, Archliches, and other good liches are forced to resort to stealing other people's corpses to revive though.
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Postby Artmar » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:01 am

Treladian wrote:Just as a quick followup, while I was home over the weekend, I looked up a few entries in my 2nd edition Monster Manual. It said even less about how a lich reanimates than the 3rd edition books. Not even a time frame is given, just that it's not really dead if the phylactery is still there.

Yeah, the only source with a detailed description of lich creation/physiology/revival etc so far is Van Richten's Guide to the Lich (which, while written with Ravenloft settings in mind, is not limited to it, and can be used for other settings as well). Maybe the Libris Mortis will change that.

Treladian wrote:I would still be surprised if Baelnorn, Archliches, and other good liches are forced to resort to stealing other people's corpses to revive though.


I don't know about Baelnorn (aren't they discorporate in the first place? I don't remember and I can't check ATM), but Archliches... well, they'll just have to "live" with it (find some workaround maybe). The ritual to change oneself into Lich is dark magic in the first place, so i guess the "Good Lich" morality is already compromised somewhat. I don't think that stealing (or buying, or cloning) replacement bodies would impact much on this (come on, to become a Lich, you have to be an accomplished necromancer first - and black necromancy is hard to practice without digging out bodies)
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:31 pm

Treladian,

When is this suppliment supposed to be come out? I sure hope they address some of the issues we've discussed here.

Artmar,

Don't have to be a necro to be a lich in D&D. Most of the older sources just mentioned you having to be 18th level magic user. Even in the Van's stuff, you didn't have to be necro, just a mage, able to cast the appropriate spells, and had to swallow the poison with making the saves.

Plus there's psionic lich's and clerical lich's. Sure they weren't necros at all.

Necormancers certainly aren't the only class that can deal with dark magic.
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Postby Treladian » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:37 pm

Artmar wrote:I don't know about Baelnorn (aren't they discorporate in the first place? I don't remember and I can't check ATM),


Baelnorn are just elven liches with some slightly different properties. Off the top of my head, they can animate the dead as a spell-like ability, walk on water, and are immune to being turned by good clerics.

The ritual to change oneself into Lich is dark magic in the first place, so i guess the "Good Lich" morality is already compromised somewhat. I don't think that stealing (or buying, or cloning) replacement bodies would impact much on this (come on, to become a Lich, you have to be an accomplished necromancer first - and black necromancy is hard to practice without digging out bodies)


As Llaadara pointed out, lichdom is definately NOT restricted to necromancers. In my excerpt from the 3rd edition Monster Manual, you'll see the entry mention that it's usually a wizard or sorcerer, but can also be a cleric or other spellcaster. Sorcerers can't specialize in a school of magic, clerics aren't traditional necromancers. Bard liches are also possible, and arch-liches and baelnorn that were originally bards aren't unknown. And illithids also sometimes become liches even if they've focused purely on psionics (though it's rare for them since illithid society in the Realms typically requires them to die and let their brain be consumed by the elder brain). Necromancers are just the ones normally associated with lichdom due to the related themes.
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Postby Treladian » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:40 pm

Llaaldara wrote:When is this suppliment supposed to be come out? I sure hope they address some of the issues we've discussed here.


October I believe. It looks like it'll be in the same vein as the Draconomicon, but more universally applicable (undead typically pop up a lot more than dragons). Here's a small preview of some of the feats from the book: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... 12b&page=5
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Postby Artmar » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:55 am

Hey, of course you don't have to be a specialist necromancer, but still (at least for arcane version of Lich ritual) you need to have extensive learning in necromancy - after all, the ritual itself IS necromantic in nature, very complicated and highly dangerous (any mistake and you end up truly dead) - only an idiot would attempt to perform it without fully understanding it.

(btw, IIRC Van Richten's version of that ritual requires a human sacrifice - though of course it's meant for Ravenloft settings)

When it comes to priests... well, If a priest's deity granted him the power to become a lich, the same deity is unlikely to frown on some corpse digging.

In general, the necessity of finding a corpse host for revival is only a minor thing when compared to performing the Lich ritual (one that has decided on the latter, whether good or evil, is already beyond the point where the former would bother him more than superficially)
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Postby Treladian » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:50 pm

Artmar wrote:Hey, of course you don't have to be a specialist necromancer, but still (at least for arcane version of Lich ritual) you need to have extensive learning in necromancy - after all, the ritual itself IS necromantic in nature, very complicated and highly dangerous (any mistake and you end up truly dead) - only an idiot would attempt to other people's corpses and reviving them. Followers of Kelemvor, the god of death in FR, are very familiar with necromancy. They also perform it without fully understanding it.


Even an extensive knowledge of necromancy does not equate to grabbinguniversally abhor the undead and seek to destroy them at every turn.

In any case, necromancy goes FAR beyond just making undead. That happens to just be the most visually familiar aspect of it. The vast majority of necromancy spells deal with manipulating negative energy, typically in an offensive manner. Ray of enfeeblement and chill touch are examples of necromancy spells that use negative energy without creating undead. Heck, there's only one spell to create undead that arcane magic users get (and the lowests forms of undead at that) through nine levels of necromancy spells in D&D.

Bard also are able to become liches and DEFINATELY don't have any ability to animate the dead from their spell list.

Again, you DO NOT need to be the stereotypical evil corpse snatcher to either be well versed in necromancy OR become a lich in D&D.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:42 pm

Well Trel,

I got Libris Mortis..


Not very impressed.


The Van Ritchen stuff went into way more detail about each type. They hardly even talk about the lich in this book. They focus more on ghouls/ghasts, wights, vampires, mohrgs, and mummys and how to make them into PC races/classes.

Yeah new spells.
Yeah new skills/feats.
Yeah new prestigue classes.
Yeah new undead monsters.
Yeah new magical items.

Woopitidy do. :P

The Book of Vile Darkness had way more cool stuff in it then this I feel.

*shrug*
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:37 am

Treladian wrote:
moritheil wrote:Poison works by disrupting natural biological processes. In fact, that is pretty much a working definition of a poison.


Actually, hemotoxins at least work by causing blood cells and their ilk to lyse. Osmosis is more of a chemical process than a biological one. And if you cause anything supporting something else to burst, then whatever is being supported is going to be affected, including if the support structure consists of dead cells. The question is if there are any toxins that work by causing any of the cells in bones to lyse or otherwise structurally deteriorate, plus figuring out if the negative energies binding a lich's body are strong enough to resist it or not.


You'll pardon me, perhaps, if I painted with a broad brush. As to your question, I don't believe that killing a few bone cells will actually damage a creature's bones from a structural standpoint, aside from making it impossible to regrow bone. My understanding is that the vast majority of bone matter is not actually alive.

I suppose that a "magical poison," a spell that duplicated the effects of poison, or something like that could conceivably be modified to work on the undead as well as the living.
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Postby daggaz » Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:53 pm

The definition of all poisons is that they interfere with enzyme activity. Basically, they stop funny little proteins from catalyzing (speeding up) the many kinds of chemical reactions which go on in your body and keep you alive.

Perhaps the reaction continues, albeit at a very, very slow pace. Perhaps it is stopped completely. No matter, as interfering with the bio-chemical inner workings of your cells in such a drastic way results at least in serious illness, if not death, depending on the amount of interference and what is being interfered with, and your bodies ability to rid itself of the poison.

HCN, or hydrogen cyanide (hitler popped one of these right before he shot himself) works by entering your mitochondria and stopping the synthesis therein of ATP, a nice little chemical which is used to power nearly every other process in your entire body. Your body has no way to remove this poison once it enters your cells. Result: a very quick death requiring a relatively small dose.

Neurotoxins work by blocking the metabolic pathways of various neurotransmitters. A typical example is by stopping the reaction which regulates levels of potassium ions across nerve cell membranes. A nerve cell which cannot control these ions cannot be used to stimulate electrical impulses across its axion. Result: paralaysis, often resulting in death if the central nervous system is unduly affected. (heart and lungs shut down, brain activity ceases).

Hemotoxins are very fun. Often found in snake venom (along with neurotoxins), they commonly work by stopping an enzyme which itself stops the production of a protein which dissolves the cell membrane. Result: over production of this enzyme, resulting in the melting or bursting (however you want to look at it) of your red blood cells. Fun.

Another fun poison is anti-freeze. I forget the active ingredient at the moment, but the fun part is that it is not in itself actually poisonous. However, upon reaching your liver, it is metabolized into a different kind of chemical, which unfortunately, tho easier for your body to excrete, IS extremely poisonous and immediately goes about killing your liver cells. The antidote? Drink lots and lots of alcohol as fast as possible. Your liver will prioritize the breakdown of the high levels of ethanol (yet another poison) and the relatively harmless antifreeze can be safely, albeit slowly, excreted in the meantime. So just stay drunk.

The breakdown? All life consists of a complex mechanism to keep certain chemical reactions going, which under 'normal' circumstances, wouldn't happen. Hence our constant intake of energy. A cell which comes to a complete chemical equilibrium (chemical activity, for the most part, stops) is defined as dead. Poisons fascilitate the stopping of these reactions.

As liches use the bodies of dead beings (skeletal or not, doesnt make a difference), and as these bodies have already had their chemical process stopped, poisons should have absolutely no effect whatsoever on liches. Other undead beings which do still have bioligical processes, like digesting, might be argued otherwise, but then, we are dealing with the realms of magic, and you can just toss this scientific nonsense out the window.

Oh and for the record, bone cells are very much alive, they just secrete lots of inorganic calcium like a kind of porous shell. Kill them, and youve got problems (no blood, a devastated immune system, and no ability to mend broken bones).
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Postby Llaaldara » Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:39 pm

NEW Feb 2005 TOPIC UPDATE: D&D Lichs as Toril Lichs

With all the recent talk/suggestions on how Lich’s should be handled on Toril, I felt it prudent to talk about them completely. To show how they are handled in D&D, and then to show how they would/could be handled plugged right into TorilMud. This discussion is in depth, and it has taken me some time to compile it all together, but I implore anyone who has lich suggestions to please carefully read thru it all, and consider the material and the points presented within before coming to any conclusions.


D&D Lichs:
- Lich Immunities: (as lich) mind-affecting spells/abilities (such as charms and compulsions), poison, stunning, energy drain, critcal hits, cold, electricity, insanity, death, and offensive polymorph spells.
- Undead Immunities: poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromantic effects, and they ignore mind-influencing effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and moral effects). Undead are not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. They have no Constitution scores and are therefore immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save (unless it affects objects). Negative energy can heal undead creatures. An undead creature is not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
- Undead Properties: Undead cannot be raised. Ressurrection can affect them, but since undead creatures usually are unwilling to return to life, these attempts generally fail. (Basically the lich would be turned back into a living necromancer is Ressurrection was successfully cast on them).
- Immediate destruction on reaching 0 (zero) hitpoints.
- Player lichs would receive a +5 bonus to armor class.
- Player lichs would now have a 1d12 hit die for determining hitpoints.
- Healing/curing/positive energy based spells cause harm to a lich, therefore causing damage instead of healing.
- Harm/cause wounds spells heal lich, instead of causing damage, would instead heal for the same amount of damage.
- Clerical mobs of appropriate level would be able to Turn player lichs. This can result in the lich becoming an NPC under the control of an evil mob, randomly fleeing for a set amount of time, or even complete and utter destruction, All lichs receive a +4 bonus to any turning attempts.
- Lichs would have a Fear Aura, causing creatures of fewer than 5 levels to be struck with fear when in the same room as a lich, as per the spell.
- Lich players would have the ability to lich touch, causing major paralysis plus 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures.
- Lich players would have damage reduction of 15/+1 (3rd Ed), or unable to be hit by creatures of less then 6 HD or with magical properties (2nd Ed).
- Upon lichdom, players would receive 2 bonuses to Int, Wis, and Cha, but loose an effective Con score.
- Lichs would receive a limited form of Hide, Listen, Move Silently (sneak), Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
- Player lich’s would not be able to be resurrected or revived. Instead, upon destruction, they would return to their Phylactery, 1d10 days layer the lich re-appears.


D&D Lich plugged straight into Toril
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Spell Immunities:
charm person, mindblast, death field, dominate, mass dominate, synaptic static, ultrablast(?), chill touch, cone of cold, energy drain, age, nerve dance, beltyn’s burning blood, banshee wail, lightning bolt, coldshield, chain lightning, ball lightning, shocking grasp, power word kill, spook, vampiric touch (of mobs against lich), hide, fear, minor paralysis, major paralysis, dessicate, call lightning.

Other Immunities:
Poison – poison traps, weapons coated with apply poison, and magical poison attacks (venom)
Garrote – a dead body has no need of an air supply
Vital Strike – critical hits, and even these advanced critical hits do not apply

Altered Spells:
Ressurrection – reduced chance of success, but if successful will return the lich to life and change class back to necromancer.
Turn Undead – mobs of sufficient level could charm player lichs with this ability if evil, or outright kill the lich if good, or cause the lich to flee randomly for a duration if neutral.
Revive – useless on player lichs. Spell does nothing.
Cure Light, Cure Serious, Cure Critic, Heal, Full Heal, and group heal – does same dice but in damage instead of healing
Cause Light, Cause Serious, Cause Critic, Harm, and Full Harm – now heal player lich for same amount of damage that would normally heal.
Blacklight Burst – heals player lich, and hastes them
Lich Touch - has chance to major para mobs again

Particular to Undead Susceptible Spells:
Ward Undead, Destroy Undead, Eradicate Undead, Holy Word, Disruption Burst, Protection from Evil, Protection from Undead,

New Abilities/Permanent Bonuses:
Water Breath
Protection from Gas
Protection from Cold
+50 ac
Repulsion
Protection from Undead
+2 bonus to Int, Wis, and Cha (?)
Sneak – caps at a skill level of 20
Hide – caps at a skill level of 20
Awareness – caps at a skill level of 20
15 DR (Damage Resistance) – Current Magic Resistance but applied to physical damage

Other Changes of note:
- roll 1d12 for hps on levels 47-50
- Immediate death upon reaching 0 (zero) hitpoints, unless a successful Death Pact is in place.



The 2 Major Considerations with Death as a D&D lich on Toril:
Please note, these should be considered together, as they are related.

1 – EXP loss. Because a player lich would no longer be able to be Revived, or Resurrected (without loosing their lichdom), it would have to be considered if they should loose exp from death at all, or approximately how much. Questions to ask yourself:
Should a player lich loose any exp from death?
Should a player lich loose 4-5% exp, as if they had been Ress’d like before?
Should a player lich loose approx 24% exp as normal?
Perhaps somewhere between 4-5% and 10-11%? (basically double the range of what you loose even with successful ress, but a little less then half of total death loss)?

But before you answer that, also consider the following before making your decision:

2 –Death as a lich (the Phylactery Factor). When a lich dies, well actually we should say “destroyed” since they don’t effectively die when their host body is rendered useless from enough damage, the lich returns to it’s phylactery (a magical container that holds the lich’s soul – basic summary here). The destruction of a lich and it’s re-animation, are handled slightly different in 2nd Edition, and 3rd Edition.

In 2nd Ed, a lich could fly out of its’ phylactery as a free-floating spirit after a time, the time before it could do this was like between hours and as long as a day, and take over a corpse or a corporeal undead creature (with successful mental attack roll) to gain a new host body.

In MUD terms, upon player ‘death’ the lich would be returned to it’s guildmaster as a wraith form mob, unable to do anything other then fly and talk (no spells, not actions, no picking up anything at all) until it finds a corpse and takes it over with a new specific type of action. The corpse would have to be humanoid of same approx race size. Now back where their old host body died, the corpse there just disintegrates, and all player lich’s equipment goes sprawling onto the ground.
The obvious advantages to this type of lich ‘death’, is that the player has a shortened recovery time, and a handling of death nothing but a minor material inconvenience. That is to say, it would appear that they wouldn’t loose any experience in this case. They are just changing hosts. Am I saying that they shouldn’t loose any experience from death, if handled this way? No. I’m saying, it would make sense if they didn’t, after all, they are risking loosing all their equipment (in the event of an unfortunate crash, or looter mobs).

Now let’s talk about 3rd Ed. This way has the lich once again returning to it’s phylactery at destruction, but then after 1d10 days the lich reforms itself (restores its’ old body). This could simply translate over into them returning to their guildmaster, and sitting there in initial Ress f/x (immobile, everything takes forever to cast/mem) for 1d10 player days. That’s effectively 24-240 minutes (4 hours) RL time. Between double normal Ress f/x time, and an ungodly 4 hour wait. The disadvantage is obvious. Sever wait time. It would also make sense in this case that the player suffers from an experience loss, or death becomes even more meaningless. In consideration, there could be options available to the player lich in this case, such as, means to speed up the f/x time, at the sacrifice of experience. That is to say, if you just sit and wait, your exp loss is minimal. If you take means to speed up your recovery, your exp loss is drastic. Therefore recovery time and exp loss could be tied proportionally to each other. The advantages are equally as obvious and powerful, no need to ever CR yourself. Your gear is with you. Death for a player lich is like death in the arena, with a ungodly magnified recovery time.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Now before running off to suggest or demand what lich’s need, ask yourself if a D&D lich is truly what you would want, and if so which way should player D&D lich be handled on Toril? Is it fair to demand they should be more like D&D lich’s, without the D&D lich disadvantages as well?

-LL
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Postby Grunelda » Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:56 pm

Woah very informative post LL!

Thanks for taking the time and effort to post.

I guess that I am missing one thing:

Now before running off to suggest or demand what lich’s need, ask yourself if a D&D lich is truly what you would want, and if so which way should player D&D lich be handled on Toril? Is it fair to demand they should be more like D&D lich’s, without the D&D lich disadvantages as well?

-LL


Why are we as players and staff compelled to follow D&D rules to the letter? Or even at all? Shouldnt they (rules) be better used as guidelines since we have the constraints of balance and gameplay that are more interoperable and dynamic that those played on paper? I do not particulary want a D&D lich, but I do want the chance to speak about things I think would improve the class as a kind of "Hybrid" between the two.

Do any of our classes follow the strict definition of the D&D defined class? Elementalists?, Rogues? or are these also a kind of Hybrid?

It is really the choice of the staff, since the playability of the game is thier responsibility. If they so choose they can have liches shoot flaming fartballs out thier ass when they cough. Its thier imagination and rescourcefulness that counts - why limit them to the confined and pre-determined set of rules?

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Last edited by Grunelda on Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:57 pm

from a zoners aspect

no way to ressurect or revive? what if said lich cant be brought back to the action via well/gate?

I'd say revive only and 4-5% xp loss like ress ... (and full fx time) .. so that said lich can return to deathpacting mightily!!

have to admit i didnt read the whole post tho :( sorry
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Postby Nekelet » Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:49 am

Good stuff as always, Llalldara. Going to have to take some time to give all this some serious thought.

Why are we as players and staff compelled to follow D&D rules to the letter? Or even at all? Shouldnt they (rules) be better used as guidelines since we have the constraints of balance and gameplay that are more interoperable and dynamic that those played on paper? I do not particulary want a D&D lich, but I do want the chance to speak about things I think would improve the class as a kind of "Hybrid" between the two.


I certainly didn't take it as a have to. In fact, more of a catalyst for the latter part of your paragraph above. Start the discussion on what makes sense, what doesn't, what's unbalanced, etc.

Much of what Ll describes fits my view of lichdom perfectly, however whether it would/could/should fit here is quite another story. On with the debate.
(just give me some more time to think about it :P)
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Postby Lim » Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:18 pm

One big issue to remember is: dying in DnD is not a day to day event.

On the mud dying is a day to day even and sometimes multiple times per day event.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:20 am

Grunelda wrote:Why are we as players and staff compelled to follow D&D rules to the letter?


That is a terrific question, and the very essence behind my reasoning for posting the update about D&D lichs. Considering the majority of material on a Lich is in D&D related game books and fiction novels, it is logical to assume that whenever anyone is suggesting ideas for a lich on the MUD, (using such reasoning as: because "this is how lichs are..") they are no doubt referencing the D&D lich.

So yes, why do we feel the Toril lich has to be so similar to the D&D lich? Well we can onlly assume because we play Toril because it is based on D&D, and more specifically D&D's Forgotten Realms, right? Perhaps we play here because we are very close to how things are in D&D books, as compared to other muds? (That's a question again, not a statement).

Grunelda wrote:I do not particulary want a D&D lich, but I do want the chance to speak about things I think would improve the class as a kind of "Hybrid" between the two.


Personally, I'm content with accepting a "Hybrid" or MUD interpreted version of the class. I feel with the recent final tweaks, the class is very nicely done. Do I want a straight D&D lich plugged right into the MUD? Honestly, I don't know. I'd have to think over the material I presented more indepthly and consider what it would really be like to be a lich like that. Some of me would really like that, and some of me wouldn't.

There is just one final thing I'd like to say about this right now. D&D handles the lich as a race. It's Toril that has handled it as a class. In recent 3rd Ed D&D material, it's been presented as a template that just about anyone could become. From halflings and goblin lichs to the normal human/drow lichs, and also that it's just not necromancers that can become one. Instead, all caster classes are open to.


And Lim, very good point.
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Postby Gura » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:39 am

didnt read 75% of this thread...but i had an idea. liches dont have functioning organs n such...so they shouldnt be able to regenerate hps at all.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:16 am

Gura wrote:didnt read 75% of this thread...but i had an idea. liches dont have functioning organs n such...so they shouldnt be able to regenerate hps at all.


Excellent point Gura, and one that actually wasn’t addressed.

From 3rd Edition Rules on Undead from the Monster Manual 1:

"Undead with no Intelligence scores cannot heal damage on their own, though they can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict wounds spell) can heal undead creatures. The regeneration and fast healing special qualities work regardless of the creature's Intelligence score."

Also note, that this book does not list "regeneration' or 'fast healing' as a 'special quality' within the lich template entry.

"cannot heal damage on their own..." is a little vague. Can be interpreted differently. Fortunately, Libris Mortis goes into more depth, under the subject of ‘Undead Healing’:

“Only undead with Intelligence scores can recover lost hit points, usually through necromantic healing (see below) or through the application of negative energy. An undead with the fast healing ability does not require an Intelligence score to benefit from that ability.
Necromantic Healing: With 8 or more consecutive hours of inactivity in any 24-hour period, an undead with an Intelligence score recovers 1 hit point per Hit Die. If such an undead is completely inactive for a full 24-hour period, it recovers 2 hit points per Hit Die.”

If we look at this now in MUD terms:
- A resting player lich regenerates Level/8 = HPs a RL minute (aka 1 MUD hour).
Example: 50th lich would regen 6.25 HPs a minute (aka 1 mud hour)

- A resting/meditating lich regenerates (level x 2) / 8 = HPs a minute
Example: 50th lich would regen 12.5 HPs a minute.


Unfortunately it doesn't list how exactly they are healing themselves this way. I guess hypothetically speaking, they are just drawling upon their link to the negative plane?

*shrug*

Your guess is as good as mine.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:33 pm

Order of the Stick handles Lich Death/Regeneration... ;):

Image
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Postby Lim » Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:39 pm

Llaaldara wrote:Order of the Stick handles Lich Death/Regeneration... ;):

Image



For people that have not read this series yet. It is REALLY funny and well done. Lilithelllelelelelelellelee!!!!!!!!!! Showed it to me and I have not laughed so hard in ages!!!
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:18 pm

I was thinking along the lines of allowing lich to get a relocate type spell, but needing components (like those group barkskin and other spells). So it would be doable, yet a bit costly. That seems to be a good compromise. I'm still stuck in the mode that relocate is mobility, convenience. NOT power. Llaaldara, whatcha think? Since a necro receives an upgrade in power AND a downgrade in utility for liching, I really don't see a problem.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:19 pm

Thilindel wrote:I was thinking along the lines of allowing lich to get a relocate type spell, but needing components (like those group barkskin and other spells). So it would be doable, yet a bit costly. That seems to be a good compromise. I'm still stuck in the mode that relocate is mobility, convenience. NOT power. Llaaldara, whatcha think? Since a necro receives an upgrade in power AND a downgrade in utility for liching, I really don't see a problem.


Well then if you give them mobility, the necro only gains by lich'n. As far as I can tell, the staff desires to have necro's be a viable option to lich'n. If you make the lich better then the necro in all ways, why stay a necro? If you're not going to loose your mobility, you're not loosing anything, you've just made the lich better then necro.


Now as for the issue of lich movement, I feel the following:
All undead, players and mobs, should regen their movement points at the same rate as that done by the bard travel spell.
-This prevents running from one end of the mud to the other in one macro/path, and therefore behave no differently then existing classes.
-This prevents lichs from dragging corpses of insane weight and amounts unlimited rooms, and therefore behave no differently then existing classes.
-This prevents lichs from acquiring any new spells that could possibly affect balance.
-This would be more in theme with their RP persona's of undead being 'tire-less'
-This would still make necro teleportation spells better, and more desireable if movement is your priority over power.

At the very least, I feel Heal Undead should heal moves as well. This would be on self only or pets on pets only, since heal undead doesn't work when a pet casts it on a player.
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Postby Nekelet » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:27 pm

Again...
Accepting all the other arguments against lich travel as being moot points...

I 2nd (again) the heal undead->afx mvs as well.
Not being able to sleep for moves, order pets to stay on their butts for mvs, or any (non item based) way to regain moves as fast as any mortal class, simply blows goats.
Just tonight, I got outrun by a naked mortal from TP to ZK to do a CR. (I was flying, @ load 'not a problem', naked mortal was lev'd, mortal had enough moves left to drag corpse out to me, mortal had 1 sleep for moves that I know of, I took <b>*4*</b> rests/reclines, after I ran out a little past standing stone..)

To the practical side of things...Sometimes, you HAVE to run away. kinda hard without any of the fun mage relo's. so lets toughen up the feet, shall we

<edit>
outrun AFTER the naked mortal ran past, drug 1 corpse (somewhere) and came back and asked for a levi. add a sleep for mvs in there somewhere, but still, not right.
</edit>
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Postby Todrael » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:00 pm

The lich class is not special. We are not special. We have a few minor perks that are unique from a theme perspective. But they don't grant any great advantages; just minor convenience (and occasionally, in the case of travel/inability to sleep, inconvenience).

Other classes have taken our powers. Invokers have gained a high level damage spell of the cold variety that has not only slow, but major paralysis, an ability that used to be part of lich touch. Invokers are now praised for the capability whenever it manifests itself. Invokers have gained more damage spells, more area spells, and more "special" effects even while liches have damage spells moved to the same circle, changed to single target instead of area, or have damage reduced significantly across the board. Illusionists received a corpse utility spell, purely for thematic reasons, that should be the sole purview of necromancers and liches. Shaman, for the longest time, had gained the ability to watch over and travel to corpses, yet again the realm of the necromancer and lich. And even now, liches have less to do with the corpses than these other classes.

Our class has become commonplace, the quest a trivial matter. The gods have allowed players to trade and pay for every quest item for lichdom on the public bbs. Complete newbies obtain lichdom and don't know how to have their pets heal themselves, or which spells are useful in combat. The quest itself is traded openly in FAQ style format. Secrecy is no longer possible in any way as the discipline of this mud's players has declined dramatically.

Necromancers have gained on us significantly. The gods have their vision of the mud, and it's a place where the secrecy doesn't matter, the loss of power doesn't matter, the duplication or usurption of powers from other classes doesn't matter. It won't matter because necromancers are just as good as us. But that can be looked at from another direction as well. Liches are just as good as any other class. A lich is, and shall be, "just another class". Which easily justifies further downgrades, further duplication of our abilities, further wimpifying of the mud in general.

For nearly the first 2 years of this incarnation of the mud, I had played more than anyone else. I was once proud of my accomplishments. I once knew that I had put my time to good use. Now, I see that others have taken my powers, my eq has been replaced by the newest fad, the things which I cherished most are passed around like 2 dollar whores. I don't feel so proud any more.

And you want to bitch about running out of moves....
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:34 pm

Todrael wrote:And you want to bitch about running out of moves....


I'm going to chip away a little piece of the mountain at a time. All out war never seems to work.


And Welcome Back :)
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Postby Pril » Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:22 pm

I don't have a lich but i think (correct me if i'm wrong) that the lich quest used to be a lot harder. And the problem with upping liches is that the gods would have to unlich everyone who liched after the pussification of the lich quest, and then restore the quest to it's original pain in the ass glory. THEN the gods should make liches the true masters of the dead. Upping lich powers with the way the quest is now is a joke at best really.

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Postby Yayaril » Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:18 pm

Todrael wrote:For nearly the first 2 years of this incarnation of the mud, I had played more than anyone else.


You were online more than anyone else, but I wouldn't say you 'played' more than anyone else.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:13 pm

The lich isn't nearly as powerful as it once relatively was. In D&D (I know the game's 'based' on it but...) you won't find too many eager to take on a lich. What'd be nice is if they added ANOTHER quest. Quest to make the lich into a demi-lich, wherein you gain your relo-type spells, gating, maybe even timestop. A true lich is one badass mofo. Plus, demi-liching would be in the 'theme' of the mud. Now I'm gonna add this idea to Ideas! :P
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:31 am

the theme of this mud is that the pbase is afraid of change, even though that change from a gameplay point of view may be warranted.

you can not honestly stick exclusively to D&D when this mud has never done as such.


welcome back todrael. i hope to see you in game.


and i'm sorry but tod was one of the first to 50, the first lich and in nearly every freakin zone run when the game first reopened. it was a long while after when he started to afk in dk.


everyone's afraid to give liches and necros something that's truly unique, because we have pets.


honestly anything you do to us now will not make our solo capabilities any greater. we can already solo all the ship mobs, armed. something only the most l33t of our warriors would do solo. the only thing that made the class overpowered as a whole was when our pets didnt share xp and so many of you abused the crap out of that to get necros to 50 in a week. if you truly felt it was overpowered why in the fuck did you abuse it?


a lot of what people type on these boards about what they assume is game balance are for the most part hypocritical opinions. we have folks who bash any idea about the class they play that they didnt think of. we have folks that say a power/skill/ability is overpowered AFTER they've abused the hell out of it.


why? because this is a game and balance needs to be addressed from a game viewpoint MORE than a 'does it adhere to a pen and paper format' viewpoint.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:43 pm

I'd say todrael played more than any other lich. More than any other evil race, and with possible exception more than any goodie.

I think he brings up very valid points especially with effects and damage spells. Why do invokers, the king of damage have a shit load of effects on their spells also? Quite possibly they would be more balanced if their insane damage also didn't have great effects, and possibly lower damage classes might be comfortable with their lower damage since they do get more effects.

Corpse glamour... good point, but im glad illusionists get it too.

You forgot embalm, when presses were 50 minutes long, embalm was ungodly. now presses are 150-250 minutes long and embalm not that special anymore.
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Postby Botef » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:40 pm

Todrael wrote:The lich class is not special. We are not special. We have a few minor perks that are unique from a theme perspective. But they don't grant any great advantages; just minor convenience (and occasionally, in the case of travel/inability to sleep, inconvenience).

Other classes have taken our powers. Invokers have gained a high level damage spell of the cold variety that has not only slow, but major paralysis, an ability that used to be part of lich touch. Invokers are now praised for the capability whenever it manifests itself. Invokers have gained more damage spells, more area spells, and more "special" effects even while liches have damage spells moved to the same circle, changed to single target instead of area, or have damage reduced significantly across the board. Illusionists received a corpse utility spell, purely for thematic reasons, that should be the sole purview of necromancers and liches. Shaman, for the longest time, had gained the ability to watch over and travel to corpses, yet again the realm of the necromancer and lich. And even now, liches have less to do with the corpses than these other classes.

Our class has become commonplace, the quest a trivial matter. The gods have allowed players to trade and pay for every quest item for lichdom on the public bbs. Complete newbies obtain lichdom and don't know how to have their pets heal themselves, or which spells are useful in combat. The quest itself is traded openly in FAQ style format. Secrecy is no longer possible in any way as the discipline of this mud's players has declined dramatically.

Necromancers have gained on us significantly. The gods have their vision of the mud, and it's a place where the secrecy doesn't matter, the loss of power doesn't matter, the duplication or usurption of powers from other classes doesn't matter. It won't matter because necromancers are just as good as us. But that can be looked at from another direction as well. Liches are just as good as any other class. A lich is, and shall be, "just another class". Which easily justifies further downgrades, further duplication of our abilities, further wimpifying of the mud in general.

For nearly the first 2 years of this incarnation of the mud, I had played more than anyone else. I was once proud of my accomplishments. I once knew that I had put my time to good use. Now, I see that others have taken my powers, my eq has been replaced by the newest fad, the things which I cherished most are passed around like 2 dollar whores. I don't feel so proud any more.

And you want to bitch about running out of moves....


Im going to have to disagree that necromancers are just as good as lichs for two key reasons - damage spells & death pact. Necromancers are seriously lacking in there ability to damage a wide variety of mobs, something liching makes up for, they also are not very functional zoning WHEN compared to a lich, death pact being the biggest help in favor of lichs.

Mephits, Golems, Elementals, or anything else that IS NOT FLESH or UNDEAD is pretty well impossible for a Necromancer to damage via spells. This is because a Necromancers only form of invocation damage is cone of cold, which does crap for damage. Everything beyond that circle is specificly designed for flesh mobs or undead which greatly hinders the classes ability to operate from scratch in a wide variety of areas. We cant XP on smoke worth a damn, we cant easily raise pets from scratch in zones inhabited primarily by golem/mephit/mental type mob.

Short of having a spectre beat the crap out of something, necromancers are shafted when it comes to a realitivly wide variety of mobs and areas. Try starting from scratch in Ashgorrock as a necromancer, its near impossible to beat anyone to rares there without brining your own pets, and even then its a LONG process to let your spectres beat mobs down that you simply cant damage effectivly.

The gains necromancers have earned are limited in their uses zoning, and often overlooked as being useless by the majority of leaders (which is too bad considering most have never even seen these spells in action). Deathpact is still highly valued over the trivial uses for vamp curse zoning, and soul walk is rarely considered useful by the majority of people I encounter. To further all of this, consider for a moment that things like Bone shatter are still useable as a lich via your pets.

If you want my opinion, too many people opt to lich and not enough people stick with Necromancers. Perhaps thats why being a lich isnt such a big deal and why the quest is so freely traded. Its almost expected of you to lich if you play a necromancer and to date I can only think of 2, maybe 3 people (myself included) that play a necro as there main and dont intend to lich, compared to some 7-8 players who have lich mains.

My logic on the matter is that liching has essentially become like your important quest spells like relocation. Their essential, people expect you to have it, and thus the information and quest items are freely exchanged to 'speed' up the process. Instead of lichs being a unique class, its become the 'essential' part of playing a necromancer, thus leaders & players alike are very very eager to get you quested. In example, the amount of assistance and help I got when I was planning on liching was amazing - people often asked what I needed and were willing to give me the items straight away just to get another lich on the field. Compare this to the months and months and months I spent trying to get help questing soul walk and vamp curse and you can see that liching has become essential, like relo and gate, and thus is traded and shared with no constraints, while things people consider unessential or useless are difficult to complete. I dont think necromancers need any upgrades, nor do lichs need downgrades but as things currently stand liching is no longer a decision, its something that is expected of you when you start playing a necromancer, and something very difficult to say 'no' to.

Just my two cents...Sorry to ramble

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