Evils and Goods, let 'em group

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Wobb
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Evils and Goods, let 'em group

Postby Wobb » Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:13 pm

Amidst all these posts about Game Advancement, polls on "what do you think of the mud now", and all the feedback from various players about being bored, pbase problems etc...why not address it?

Pilot it for a few weeks. It doesn't sit comfortably with me that Shev thinks the evil pbase's problem is self-induced or self-caused or even self-resolvable. It isn't. It is the mud administrations responsibility to balance things, and right now, the pbase is incredibly un-balanced.

Let goodies and evils group together, no restrictions...like I said, let us try it for a few weeks.

I'm open to hear reasons now, at this stage of the game, after all those who have left, why they shouldn't be allowed to group together.

It is still difficult to make zoning groups for evils (despite recent attempts by many evil players)...and this game is about zoning. I see no harm in trying it. What was once meant to be a racewar is now....null.

Thanks for reading.

Wobb
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Postby Lalsed » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:35 am

Definetely.

I don't see the big difference between a good-aligned person grouping with either

a) a human necro/lich
or
b)some evilrace i.e. orc, troll

so, yeah...I think it would go a long way in getting people more involved, and helping people who have only played one side more learn of the other I suppose. Like myself, always played a goodie, so I'm kind of ignorant of the evil side, and too lazy to level someone too :D

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Re: Evils and Goods, let 'em group

Postby Sesexe » Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:52 pm

Wobb wrote:Amidst all these posts about Game Advancement, polls on "what do you think of the mud now", and all the feedback from various players about being bored, pbase problems etc...why not address it?

Pilot it for a few weeks. It doesn't sit comfortably with me that Shev thinks the evil pbase's problem is self-induced or self-caused or even self-resolvable. It isn't. It is the mud administrations responsibility to balance things, and right now, the pbase is incredibly un-balanced.

Let goodies and evils group together, no restrictions...like I said, let us try it for a few weeks.

I'm open to hear reasons now, at this stage of the game, after all those who have left, why they shouldn't be allowed to group together.

It is still difficult to make zoning groups for evils (despite recent attempts by many evil players)...and this game is about zoning. I see no harm in trying it. What was once meant to be a racewar is now....null.

Thanks for reading.

Wobb


I'm not really sure I have an opinion on all this right now. Just wanted to point out a couple of things that came to mind.

If goods and evils could group freely with eachother, to some extent I guess, the only thing this would really change in the grand scheme of things is that some Evils would now do the zones goodies normally do all the time, for once. I don't see a big rush for goodies to do UD zones, because even us Evils barely do them. Most just aren't worth the effort to be honest.

Will we see a big rush on people leveling up troll tanks? I really don't know the answer to that. There are positives and negatives to doing so. Evil race chars aren't aggro to everything a goodrace char is. That might, I said might cuz I'm not sure, cause some problems/funkiness when doing certain zones for goodie leaders. Again, maybe. *shrug*

Last couple of days finding enough evils to zone with hasn't been a problem for me, but then again, I'm only looking during peak. Having been an evil now for 3 years, I think I can say that off-peak it's dam well devoid. Perhaps during such hours goodies could use a few extra players as well? *shrug* I dunno, only assuming.

I also don't know what harm could come from only doing it for a trial basis for a temporary period? Well, whatever.

If it's needed or not needed, who knows.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:36 pm

let evils roll goods or humans if they want to group and vice versa.

if you combine the two communities, you leave no place for the people who like evils and the separation as is is. You eliminate one more possible element of competition (not that any exists) and you eradicate some of the potential for aminosity between the sides. Believe it or not some people get off and play this game just so they can say they are better than goodies, evils, or dartan.

If you want to group with all roll a fuking neutral or evil human. duh
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Postby kiryan » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:38 pm

and its still not gonna get you any more groups wobb
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:15 am

shut up mike! i want psi!
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Postby Sservis » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:34 am

The blocking issue as I see it, is that it would change the optimality of some choices made long ago.

good race clerics [be yuanti]
good race neco/lich [be yuan/drow]
evil race elementalists [be elf]
evil race dire raider [be elf]
good race illus [be yuanti]
evil race battlechanters [be elf, hell be any good race. mag/rog > cle/rog]
[I've left good race warriors off this list, as I'm not convinced that trolls are better than gnome/elf, in fact I tend to side with the gnome/elf who might put the trolls out of business]

The issue that has people brining this up over and over [besides those with class envy] is that when there is low pbase on one side or the other that also affects the optimality of some choices. I would not be opposed to allowing people to do a one time race swap if it ever became a serious issue [it has been in the past].

This would allow those who leveled up an evil race and can no longer find decent groups to switch without losing the effort they put into their character. although finding the conversion is hard. drow -> elf, orc -> human [changing class to bard/bat if needed] duergar -> dwarf is easy. Converting illithid, yuan-ti [gnome?], troll, and ogre are much harder.

Anyway, it ain't happening folks. Deal with the situation as is. Level up on the other side, consign your losses to the way the mud works and a the fact that which side to play is affect by network effects, and the evil race side lost. Or work on maintaining and expanding the evil race pbase.

Although, my enchanter would love it if neutral or good aligned evil races could group with good races [and I'm assuming the nuetral or evil good race swinging evil would be extended to all good races]. But, I know that it's not going to happen for quite valid game balance reasons.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:07 pm

Sservis wrote:Although, my enchanter would love it if neutral or good aligned evil races could group with good races [and I'm assuming the nuetral or evil good race swinging evil would be extended to all good races]. But, I know that it's not going to happen for quite valid game balance reasons.


Make em work for it. I can agree with that. If an evilrace char wants to put the time and effort into going good aligned (and when I was trying this it was taking a long time to do... yeesh), it would be nice if they could then group with good races.

Perhaps if there was some kind of limit, perhaps they had to be +850 align to group with goodies?

*shrug*

Who cares. z:P
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Postby Wobb » Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:56 pm

"change the optimality of some choices made long ago"

That's the whole point. Everything that has been done, everything that has happened were based on choices we all made long ago, and now we are supressed into zoning on a very rare basis. I chose a troll warrior for their tanking ability and put up with 50 levels of fire damage and other downsides to have this tank. As I have with my other evil characters. I also entertained the idea of a "one time switch", but that doesn't help with gear? Not that gear can't be replaced but...too many eq restrictions.

If I had any idea that the evil pbase would have been 20 people (rotating on and off) not 10 of them over level 40...I wouldn't have continued down the road. Nor would I have continued KNOWING the administration would turn a blind eye to the situation. Allowing humans to group was a generous gesture but simply -- just not enough.

The simple fact remains, so many changes that people weren't expecting (eq changes) occurred that it has driven people away. This isn't your normal turnover of people getting bored, people getting jobs. This turnover is administration-level change frustrating players to the point of leaving. I'm not blaming the administration, they have made grand strides in many directions, but they are continuing to ignore the evil pbase problem and eventually its going to nip them in the bud.

Any evil pbase member likes things just the way they are? Let me know and I'll shutup. Hey if you don't want to group with goodies for RP, fine then don't, but don't refuse me zoning because of your RP goal.

Earlier, I was pushing for a pwipe, but its too late for that now (it should have been done when the mud split, and the eq changed stats). Anything that pushes people away at this point is dangerous.

Allowing everyone to group is not going to push people nor will it "nullify" the need for any class.

Above all, as I stated, allow us to try it and see, as that is the only way we will truly know.

Wobb
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:02 pm

Wobb wrote:"change the optimality of some choices made long ago"

That's the whole point. Everything that has been done, everything that has happened were based on choices we all made long ago, and now we are supressed into zoning on a very rare basis. I chose a troll warrior for their tanking ability and put up with 50 levels of fire damage and other downsides to have this tank. As I have with my other evil characters. I also entertained the idea of a "one time switch", but that doesn't help with gear? Not that gear can't be replaced but...too many eq restrictions.

If I had any idea that the evil pbase would have been 20 people (rotating on and off) not 10 of them over level 40...I wouldn't have continued down the road. Nor would I have continued KNOWING the administration would turn a blind eye to the situation. Allowing humans to group was a generous gesture but simply -- just not enough.

The simple fact remains, so many changes that people weren't expecting (eq changes) occurred that it has driven people away. This isn't your normal turnover of people getting bored, people getting jobs. This turnover is administration-level change frustrating players to the point of leaving. I'm not blaming the administration, they have made grand strides in many directions, but they are continuing to ignore the evil pbase problem and eventually its going to nip them in the bud.

Any evil pbase member likes things just the way they are? Let me know and I'll shutup. Hey if you don't want to group with goodies for RP, fine then don't, but don't refuse me zoning because of your RP goal.

Earlier, I was pushing for a pwipe, but its too late for that now (it should have been done when the mud split, and the eq changed stats). Anything that pushes people away at this point is dangerous.

Allowing everyone to group is not going to push people nor will it "nullify" the need for any class.

Above all, as I stated, allow us to try it and see, as that is the only way we will truly know.

Wobb



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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:51 am

i just dont see grey elves and trolls traipsing thru the forest happily together
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Postby Sservis » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:46 am

Ambar wrote:i just dont see grey elves and trolls traipsing thru the forest happily together


You don't see evil elves and neutral yuan-ti that often either. In fact there's only one [that I know of] evil race character that has climbed out of the pit so to speak. Maybe that's why you haven't seen it before!
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Postby Sservis » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:57 am

Sservis wrote:You don't see evil elves and neutral yuan-ti that often either. In fact there's only one [that I know of] evil race character that has climbed out of the pit so to speak. Maybe that's why you haven't seen it before!


If neutral to good align evil races could group with good races, there'd be such a run on SH that no one would reach neutral align for months. took me 30-40 hrs and I had no competition.... Imagine if the whole evil pbase was trying to get all their alts there....
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'

Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'

Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'



Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:18 am

Wobb wrote:Nor would I have continued KNOWING the administration would turn a blind eye to the situation.


Oh my god I can't deal with BOTH the muds I play wiping at once!

p.s. Spot on about eq changes and pandering to new zones, but what are you going to do? I too think that IC and Jot are 30K x better than SPOB and Seelie, but new zones have to go in for the mud to grow.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:48 am

Hey, I led Deep Dragon a few times with a goodie group ;) It was worth it! :P
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Postby Dalar » Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:11 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Wobb wrote:Nor would I have continued KNOWING the administration would turn a blind eye to the situation.


Oh my god I can't deal with BOTH the muds I play wiping at once!

p.s. Spot on about eq changes and pandering to new zones, but what are you going to do? I too think that IC and Jot are 30K x better than SPOB and Seelie, but new zones have to go in for the mud to grow.
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