First of all my friend just got me to play here. The mud seems huge and there is a lot of quality, compared to some of the other's I've seen in how the area creators give such detail. I'm disappointed to see the relative low number of players, despite such a good emphasis in design. My only complaint would be in the inconsistancy of the roller. I was testing warriors and rogues. It is very possible with patience to roll class oriented perfects, wherein the attributes are as high as possible for the needs of the character. This is definitely not the case when I tried, and tried, . . . and tried to roll a bard. I chose to roll a bard due to the versatility of possible soloing and usefullness in a group.
A bard gets two useless stats, charisma and intelligence, leeching from a potential roll. You never see the charisma (or is it my inexperience?) help. The grey elf sells items for a lot more than other races, yet with the intelligence and charisma maxxed, songs just failed or stuttered just as often as the dwarf, which I've heard is quite relatively 'stupid'.
It's by all means possible to roll a literally perfect character wherever I've played, yet to make a bard or a (I'm assuming) melee cleric or druid, you will have to make annoying compromises. I'm not saying to just toss out stats, but I do feel that just because they are innate, you should not live with them forever. There should be avenues to enhance them permenantly, not by sacraficing equipment slots. There are two types of players as extremes in my experience of mudding; the ones who live with super low rolls, for the challenge, AND the ones like me who seek highest innates. I don't know if there are any quests or ways to practice strength or agility training, for example at a guildmaster, but there should definitely be a means to. Come on, there's a power to raise the dead even!
I hope I don't come accross as negative, because everybody completely, I've met here is very nice, and concerned that I'm enjoying myself. I would hope to seek more players to join here as well!
New to the mud and rolling bards
As you pointed out bard's are a very versatile class and as such, need a very wide variety of attributes. The way the roller works is it makes sure your selected class's attributes fill the minimum for that class, and then it 'randomly' distributes the rest of the points available. A bard has more rigid attribute requirements then most classes who only have 2 or 3. So the total number of points is spread a little thinner.
As for not needing Int and Char; different attributes are used in a wide varity of ways, I can't tell you the uses behind every single stat; hell it would take me weeks to even try and write that much, but that are not as flat as just used only to buy/sell goods, mem times etc.
The problem with allowing people to quest stat increases is that every single high level player would end up maxxing every stat, in the end leaving the lower level chars are more of a disadvantace and creating another time sink when in the end every char would be exactly the same.
Not to say this is/will never be a possiblity, for instance if you deal with the RPQ sphere for enough time and accumilate enough points perhaps that could be arranges, but its not something we are looking to give out without an enormous amount of work.
As for not needing Int and Char; different attributes are used in a wide varity of ways, I can't tell you the uses behind every single stat; hell it would take me weeks to even try and write that much, but that are not as flat as just used only to buy/sell goods, mem times etc.
The problem with allowing people to quest stat increases is that every single high level player would end up maxxing every stat, in the end leaving the lower level chars are more of a disadvantace and creating another time sink when in the end every char would be exactly the same.
Not to say this is/will never be a possiblity, for instance if you deal with the RPQ sphere for enough time and accumilate enough points perhaps that could be arranges, but its not something we are looking to give out without an enormous amount of work.
Y'all know I just had to respond. :)
Firstly, of all the classes, rolling a bard and/or battlechanter is the most difficult because there are so many stats that are very useful to the class (all but Power, IMHO) whereas all of the other classes can basically skip some of the stats (Charisma being one stat all of the other classes can get by without...).
Some hints: once you learn more about this MUD, you will find out that each race has its own set of "notches" for particular stats. Thus, for a particular race, a 90 may be just as good as a 91 in a particular stat, and in some instances, you will find out that an 80 is really just as good as a 100 in a stat for a particular race, in terms of notching. Stop trying to roll all perfects in 7 stats, it's just not going to happen.
There are no quests to increase your innate rolled stats, and don't ask for any, please. :)
Charisma affects your innate mana pool as a bard/battlechanter, ie. it determines how much mana you receive each time you level, just as constitution determines how many hp's you get when you level. It is not simply used to buy/sell items, and it is by no means useless.
Your songs will fail/stutter based on a lot of factors, mainly your skill level and whether or not you're using an instrument. Do not expect an elf or halfling bard to stutter less than a dwarf at level 1, it's not going to happen! Build up your skills, find good instruments with good stutter ratings, and you'll see what I mean. Just as with any skill in the game, you're going to fail more often until your skills are notched to an appropriate level, which can only be done with time.
Make sure you know how the roller works. If you get a perfect in a stat which you deem to be useless, you can switch that perfect with the rolled figure you get in another stat. All of the information on how to do this is listed when you begin your first roll for your character.
If this MUD had a bunch of perfect-stat'd characters running around, things would be drab. There would be no diversity. One of the reasons I love the bard class so much is that you see all types of play-styles out there for bards/battlechanters, whereas all of the other classes are basically played the same. Take a gander at everyone's eq set-up, you'll see much more diversity in a bard's set-up than anyone else's, in terms of how much hit/dam, ac, hp each individual bard emphasizes as compared to the next.
Hope this helps!
Firstly, of all the classes, rolling a bard and/or battlechanter is the most difficult because there are so many stats that are very useful to the class (all but Power, IMHO) whereas all of the other classes can basically skip some of the stats (Charisma being one stat all of the other classes can get by without...).
Some hints: once you learn more about this MUD, you will find out that each race has its own set of "notches" for particular stats. Thus, for a particular race, a 90 may be just as good as a 91 in a particular stat, and in some instances, you will find out that an 80 is really just as good as a 100 in a stat for a particular race, in terms of notching. Stop trying to roll all perfects in 7 stats, it's just not going to happen.
There are no quests to increase your innate rolled stats, and don't ask for any, please. :)
Charisma affects your innate mana pool as a bard/battlechanter, ie. it determines how much mana you receive each time you level, just as constitution determines how many hp's you get when you level. It is not simply used to buy/sell items, and it is by no means useless.
Your songs will fail/stutter based on a lot of factors, mainly your skill level and whether or not you're using an instrument. Do not expect an elf or halfling bard to stutter less than a dwarf at level 1, it's not going to happen! Build up your skills, find good instruments with good stutter ratings, and you'll see what I mean. Just as with any skill in the game, you're going to fail more often until your skills are notched to an appropriate level, which can only be done with time.
Make sure you know how the roller works. If you get a perfect in a stat which you deem to be useless, you can switch that perfect with the rolled figure you get in another stat. All of the information on how to do this is listed when you begin your first roll for your character.
If this MUD had a bunch of perfect-stat'd characters running around, things would be drab. There would be no diversity. One of the reasons I love the bard class so much is that you see all types of play-styles out there for bards/battlechanters, whereas all of the other classes are basically played the same. Take a gander at everyone's eq set-up, you'll see much more diversity in a bard's set-up than anyone else's, in terms of how much hit/dam, ac, hp each individual bard emphasizes as compared to the next.
Hope this helps!
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Eilistraee
- Staff Member - Quests
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- Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:20 pm
What I see is that a bard cannot possibly attain the 'perfection' that rogues, warriors, mages can get. I see no mage class receives the 'offense' skill so dexterity is no concern at all. So I'm just wondering why bards, battlechanters (if the are mirrors of bards) and a melee type clerical class cannot achieve what true melee does? You can't help but roll a perfect warrior or rogue. It's all you can do, after a lot of frustration, to get a bard with 'decent' *again, why would someone live with decent when the other classes do not receive such penalty* stats. Just curious.
auslyx wrote:What I see is that a bard cannot possibly attain the 'perfection' that rogues, warriors, mages can get. I see no mage class receives the 'offense' skill so dexterity is no concern at all. So I'm just wondering why bards, battlechanters (if the are mirrors of bards) and a melee type clerical class cannot achieve what true melee does? You can't help but roll a perfect warrior or rogue. It's all you can do, after a lot of frustration, to get a bard with 'decent' *again, why would someone live with decent when the other classes do not receive such penalty* stats. Just curious.
Is your idea of "perfect" rolling perfect (ie. 100) for a class's primary stats? Or is it rolling the top notch in a class's primary stats? Or what? What are the best stats you've rolled on a bard that still only qualifies as "decent"?
I found it more difficult to roll a mage than a bard, actually.
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Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'
Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'
Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'
Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'
Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
My idea of perfect is the racial max of a dwarf, so 6 dam 6 hitroll 70 AC (which agility needs to be virtually perfect for that) and 'average' for constitution. After HOURS of rolling, this has not occured yet. Only once has it accepted a 'fair' for intelligence. Usually fair is too low, so you have to waste another good or higher in it. From the helpfiles on a bard, quick chant is the only directly noticable skill from intelligence other than searching. Quick chant is a skill so INT I assume only decifers how quickly this skill rises. When you roll a dwarf rogue, you can get (with some work) some very nice rolls, max innates, as well as good wisdom and fair or average intelligence. A bard just hits the wall for needing racial maxxes. Mage rolls were easier for me when I was testing. I got several racial max strength, agility, and constitution rolls, while maxing (I hate spelling) intelligence. I don't want to come across by any means as new and just complaing, but I do wonder why melee only chars can be rolled to what anybody consider's perfect, yet bards and the aforementioned ones cannot reach such bliss
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kiryan
- Sojourner
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Charisma and bards is a bit tricky. CHA notches around 94 for a grey elf it affects your mana missing your charisma notch means 1 less mana per level or 50 less at 50. You can check this by rolling a char with max cha come into the game, then roll a cha with mighty cha and come into the game, youll notice the perfect cha will have 1 more mana which will become 50 more at 50.
Unlike other stats, cha on a bard is a stat you must absolutely make your notch in naturally, +cha eq does not affect your mana total only your raw charisma score is counted if you have 50 natural cha and 150 eqd cha you will have the mana of a character with 50 cha. Mana is what allows you to sing so this is important.
I mention grey elf because they have the most mana at 50 which is about 450. I believe halflings get the same amount, dwarves and half-elves about 25-50 less, and humans 100 less. I can't quite remember the exact positioning halfling vs dwarf vs half elf but they are all fairly decent. Human is probably a poor choice.
Both grey and halflings get opportunities for extra attacks halflings about a 50% chance and grey about a 25% chance (grey % can be upgraded with +max dex eq which seemingly has no affect on halflings).
The rest of the stats you can notch with equipment. If you have a 90 agility and your notch is at 98, wearing +9 agility will grant you 7ish more naked ac. If you miss your con notch, wearing +con will give you the extra hps (1 per level or 50 at 50). I'd advise you make your max con notch also since the #1 con check is probably ress and your usually naked when you get a ress.
It is very difficult to roll a max notch grey elf bard in the 5 important categories (cha, con, agi, dex, str). Focus on making your charsima notch, your con notch, then look at your agility and dex notches (i favor agility slightly however dex is more of a prime stat for a bard), finally get as much strength as you can for dragging dead bodies. As far as I can tell, you dont need to worry about int or wisdom although you want as much of both as you can muster.
As far as skills go, at 50 with skills that "max" at 90+ you pretty much can ignore any stat dependencies... A grey elf at level 1 is gonna perform better on int checks than a human at level 1, but at 50 they are virtually if not exactly the same %s; the skill overcomes the stat bonus. Also even though skills are listed under a particular stat, some of them don't seem to have any perceivable check against the stat...
and im glad your keeping your positive attitude. one parting comment, its significantly harder to roll a good squid than it is to roll a bard.
Unlike other stats, cha on a bard is a stat you must absolutely make your notch in naturally, +cha eq does not affect your mana total only your raw charisma score is counted if you have 50 natural cha and 150 eqd cha you will have the mana of a character with 50 cha. Mana is what allows you to sing so this is important.
I mention grey elf because they have the most mana at 50 which is about 450. I believe halflings get the same amount, dwarves and half-elves about 25-50 less, and humans 100 less. I can't quite remember the exact positioning halfling vs dwarf vs half elf but they are all fairly decent. Human is probably a poor choice.
Both grey and halflings get opportunities for extra attacks halflings about a 50% chance and grey about a 25% chance (grey % can be upgraded with +max dex eq which seemingly has no affect on halflings).
The rest of the stats you can notch with equipment. If you have a 90 agility and your notch is at 98, wearing +9 agility will grant you 7ish more naked ac. If you miss your con notch, wearing +con will give you the extra hps (1 per level or 50 at 50). I'd advise you make your max con notch also since the #1 con check is probably ress and your usually naked when you get a ress.
It is very difficult to roll a max notch grey elf bard in the 5 important categories (cha, con, agi, dex, str). Focus on making your charsima notch, your con notch, then look at your agility and dex notches (i favor agility slightly however dex is more of a prime stat for a bard), finally get as much strength as you can for dragging dead bodies. As far as I can tell, you dont need to worry about int or wisdom although you want as much of both as you can muster.
As far as skills go, at 50 with skills that "max" at 90+ you pretty much can ignore any stat dependencies... A grey elf at level 1 is gonna perform better on int checks than a human at level 1, but at 50 they are virtually if not exactly the same %s; the skill overcomes the stat bonus. Also even though skills are listed under a particular stat, some of them don't seem to have any perceivable check against the stat...
and im glad your keeping your positive attitude. one parting comment, its significantly harder to roll a good squid than it is to roll a bard.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
that sucks about the squids. I assume they're mages as well, so do they need high str? I thought squids or flayers, whatevery they are..are weak. (I'm very unsure of some classes so bare [sp?] with me)
If squids are like other mages, from what I've learned on the NHC channel is mages only need modest str, high agility, max con, max int. so that's only four stats? The bard and cleric types need str/dex (again if melee), agi, con, int, AND charisma. just a lot more to juggle between and there's no possible way to max, whereas a warrior only needs str/agi/dex/con, of which I maxed today out of curiousity. Took some time but it is done. And by no means am I trying to tell anyone how to play or which stats to get, I'm stating this just to let you know what all I've gathered so far. Either way, I have yet to find a bard to say 'I have max'd stats...but there are 2 rogues in the game that proudly tell me they have perfect naked stats. I just hope to see every class have that possibility. What makes a bard so great that he cannot achieve that? From what I hear, shaman can solo things with great ease..also other clerical types. Can bards? Again I don't know
If squids are like other mages, from what I've learned on the NHC channel is mages only need modest str, high agility, max con, max int. so that's only four stats? The bard and cleric types need str/dex (again if melee), agi, con, int, AND charisma. just a lot more to juggle between and there's no possible way to max, whereas a warrior only needs str/agi/dex/con, of which I maxed today out of curiousity. Took some time but it is done. And by no means am I trying to tell anyone how to play or which stats to get, I'm stating this just to let you know what all I've gathered so far. Either way, I have yet to find a bard to say 'I have max'd stats...but there are 2 rogues in the game that proudly tell me they have perfect naked stats. I just hope to see every class have that possibility. What makes a bard so great that he cannot achieve that? From what I hear, shaman can solo things with great ease..also other clerical types. Can bards? Again I don't know
Weelllll, rolling a bard .. took me AGES to get good stats, but .. it is well worth it .. I decided to go evil human because of my evil friends and wanting to group with them ..
I found i could get all but one GREAT stat, then had to decide which i wanted to be .. strong or agile .. I chose agile over strength (ie .. more rogue-like) ... I have not ONCE regretted my decision (as a human i am going to be stronger than my elven counterparts anyway, and they get the agil bonus naturally... so as a grey elf you may sacrifice agil for strength ... imho it is a personal preference ..)... tho i HAVE regrettted not rolling a grey elf for the mana ...
don't expect dwarf hit/dam .. it aint gonna happen .. best i can say is roll a perfect in each and every stats (one saved character per perfect stats) .. and see what your max notches are ... I prefer not to tell you, so you can see it for yourself .. ie: roll a perfect strength and see what stats it affects (who cares what the other stats show) .. same for dex/con/agil ... then keep the best ... if you are a pefectionist like I am you CAN get a decent roll .. just takes a LONG time
Look me up with questions (Tasira Silvershell) ... or aim/icq me ... hope any input helps!
-Jennifer
I found i could get all but one GREAT stat, then had to decide which i wanted to be .. strong or agile .. I chose agile over strength (ie .. more rogue-like) ... I have not ONCE regretted my decision (as a human i am going to be stronger than my elven counterparts anyway, and they get the agil bonus naturally... so as a grey elf you may sacrifice agil for strength ... imho it is a personal preference ..)... tho i HAVE regrettted not rolling a grey elf for the mana ...
don't expect dwarf hit/dam .. it aint gonna happen .. best i can say is roll a perfect in each and every stats (one saved character per perfect stats) .. and see what your max notches are ... I prefer not to tell you, so you can see it for yourself .. ie: roll a perfect strength and see what stats it affects (who cares what the other stats show) .. same for dex/con/agil ... then keep the best ... if you are a pefectionist like I am you CAN get a decent roll .. just takes a LONG time
Look me up with questions (Tasira Silvershell) ... or aim/icq me ... hope any input helps!
-Jennifer
yeah thanks. I'm overall having a horrible time. Best I got was mighty strength, fair agility (still only 96 AC naked) mighty dex (5 hitroll) fair int, and mighty charisma. I just keep getting told that 'those stats suck'. Either way, it's pretty clear you can't roll ideal bards, as you can a warrior or rogue. Crud! Is there something super special I don't know about the class?
auslyx wrote:yeah thanks. I'm overall having a horrible time. Best I got was mighty strength, fair agility (still only 96 AC naked) mighty dex (5 hitroll) fair int, and mighty charisma. I just keep getting told that 'those stats suck'. Either way, it's pretty clear you can't roll ideal bards, as you can a warrior or rogue. Crud! Is there something super special I don't know about the class?
Have you tried rolling an orc battlechanter as well? Just curious what the rolls were looking like compared to the bards you were trying?
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
auslyx wrote:Either way, it's pretty clear you can't roll ideal bards, as you can a warrior or rogue. Crud! Is there something super special I don't know about the class?
The secret is setting reasonible goals. You have 612 points [give or take a few, I'm guessing as high as 620 or so is possible, but I wouldn't plan on it] to divide among the stats while rolling. You're just playing around in the roller until those points are split up as you'd like. Let's look at what is possible.
What I'd dream for [since stats don't really affect skills, although I haven't tested either bards or battlechanters] goes about as follows [note: this dream is close to possible, not the 8 perfect pipe dream]
perf str dex agi cha, maxnotch con [dwarf 57, human 74, halfelf 78, halfing 82, elf 87] and an 80 int. This leaves between 75 and 45 points for pow and wisdom depending on race. I might get the dream set of stats as a dwarf [after a LOT of rolling time, you'd better have a really good autoroller and _much_ patience], but as any other race it's not happening, I'd have to compromise on one stat or another.
Which stat to compromise on is the hard question. Without adequite testing on how statistics impact bards [there are often hidden stat effects beyond the obvious] I can't really hazard a guess. [Dex seems like a decent choice, but it also seems like the kind of thing that might have some hidden effect on songs or something else sneaky]
[for referece squids dream of perf str, pow, int, agi, maxnotch con [92], 65 wis [roller required], and a 40 dex [roller required]. this leaves 15 points for cha, which definitely isn't happening.
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
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Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
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Vorkul Tigerclaw
- Sojourner
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:55 pm
auslyx wrote:thanks for the detail. Very helpful! Although I still don't see why bards are forced to compromise...
I see how you would like bards to have equal oppurtunities to the other classes when it comes to stat rolling...but its just not that way unfortunately. You just gotta learn what stats max at 100, which ones dont, and which ones are most important maxed.
However, imo, bards are EXTREMELY useful. If I see a little bard around when im on as my warrior, I always invite them to group, regardless of level. Even if your songs suck,while sleeping + song of regen is a big difference in exping.
I'll look for you on the mud, and I'll keep an eye out for some instruments for you.
One more thing, dont be an elf, they smell funny. They are also stuck on an island for the first 20 levels, ususally by themselves without help.....if you want good charisma go halfling or half-elf and choose WD as your hometown. haflings start out in beluir, a short walk to waterdeep.(WD=Waterdeep) But if you dont wanna be short, half elves have the choice of starting in waterdeep and then traveling to elf island at a later time if you wanna try it out.
Good luck ,and dont give up, new players are like gold. Especially ones like you that think for themselves, and like knowing why things are the way they are.
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Dudle GCC: 'it's a new player class'
Azerost GCC: 'Imagine for a second that they jammed Drizzt into a dagger'
Dudle GCC: 'it's a new player class'
Azerost GCC: 'Imagine for a second that they jammed Drizzt into a dagger'
auslyx wrote:thanks for the detail. Very helpful! Although I still don't see why bards are forced to compromise...
As Sservis mentioned above, we are given a round-about set number of points to "play" with when rolling any particular character. Bards in general, and most especially on this MUD, are considered to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Which means, we find several stats useful for our different skills. We're hitters, we're singers, we're spellcasters, we have rogue skills, etc. This being the case, it would probably be unfair to give bards more points to "play" with when rolling in order to max out more stats than other classes have to max. And, going along with our theme of being a jack of all trades, master of none... it is very possible to get very good stats in str/dex/agi/con/cha/int and yet not perfect all of them. Sacrificing perfection in all stats does not have to be looked at as being behind the 8 ball unless you insist on making this your outlook. Rather, you can look at it as having a very wide range of useful stats which you can utilize in any given instant.
Too, having to "depend" on eq to raise your stat values isn't always a compromise. Some of the very best bard eq has stat values added onto them. :)
auslyx wrote:So would it be more beneficial when someone is making a new char to just be alotted these 620 points and distribute them ourselves? It seems it would save a LOT of time and perhaps bandwidth? Characters would not all be mirrors, because one could shape to his own interests.
Not necessarily. As with all things here, there is a general cookiecutter mold to just about everything on this MUD, from the spells used in zones by particular classes, to the eq sets used, to the stats we generally agree on as the most important for a particular race/class combo. So you would see a bazillion warriors with perfect str/con/dex/agi and the only "variation" would be in their pow/int/wis/cha scores, etc. Too, there are hidden stats for each character called "Luck" and "Karma" which are presumed to be rolled along with our other stats and there is no way for us to know what our scores in those stats are. This would have to be figured into everything if we were just given a set number of points to distribute, etc. :)
auslyx wrote:So would it be more beneficial when someone is making a new char to just be alotted these 620 points and distribute them ourselves? It seems it would save a LOT of time and perhaps bandwidth? Characters would not all be mirrors, because one could shape to his own interests.
It would be a dramatic shift in character power from already rolled to yet to be rolled characters. Last time they changed the roller to make better stats easier and allow swapping of stats, a number of people decided that the increase justified doing a reroll and rexp of one or more alts. Allowing the points to be placed where desired would introduce the same effect all over again.
Personally I consider this to be a very bad thing [on par with artifact [or changed] items, that newer players don't have access to, old khanjari vs new anyone?], however similar things have been done before.
Such a change really doesn't impact time or bandwidth. If you're rolling for such characters you have an autoroller and you sleep or are not mudding while it is rolling, so time is not a factor. With mccp compression each rolled character only takes about 40 bytes, and since there's a cap of 2 chars/second at most your connection will use 80 bytes/second, hardly a bandwidth drain [uncompressed it's more like 2k/sec].
Essentially I'd consider some sort of point buy statistics comperable to the top of rolling [all 612 points] a change that would be good, but only post-pwipe due to the old vs new character balance issues. If the change went in, there would be 5 perfect characters [I've seen five 4-perfect warriors in 9,181,563 logged rolls which is about 262 hours of rolling per. If even better stats were made available instantaneously....], which versus the established pbase would be unbalancing [since you could achieve it instantly].
What I would like to see is quick semi cookie cutter "noob" autorolls. An option where a mage could select a preset set of stats, say 80 str, 92 agi, 68 dex, maxnotch con, 62 pow, 100 int, 62 wis 62 cha. This uses up to 613 points depending on race [for the maxnotch con] and provides a very playable mage, but it can't compete with what is possible [100 str, 100 agi, 75ish dex, maxnotch con, 100 int] so it doesn't introduce game balance issues, just expedites the rolling for those that only care for "decent" stats.
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
That idea seems really good! The only loss in time is the fact that I _could_ have been playing almost a week ago with stats that rendered basically either settling on bad agility, or mundane constitution. Compromise after compromise for bards. The cookie cutter would be a great way to ensure a modest bard too! The perspective I saw is there are virtually no low level chars, so if people were to reroll, given the option of possible bliss in statistics on rolls, the new players would actually find low levels to group with. I got help a lot but was in spurts. Gnolls, some ungodly orcs when I try to walk south to waterdeep, and other really outrageously high level and hard hitting mobs interfere with just functioning close to waterdeep. Since I don't seem to have any eq near everybody else I saw, I am looking toward innate stats. Again, as the other bards that have settled, are stating low stats basically MUST be accepted. Take an invoker for example. According to the earlier post from someone (the one about minimum racial constitution), a grey elf needs 87 con for max notch. - 87 con, 100 int, 96 or more agility?, and any decent str roll is a 'perfect' invoker. Those stats don't seem hard at all to hit. Everybody was saying an invoker will be asked to group. Bards don't seem to have that option. Shaman and their group heal look to outperform. Again that's my perspective since I'm not in a very knowledgable perspective. As a new player, I just would like to see the maximum stats possible, whether I work for it or not. This is simply not the case for a bard, since statistically it's impossible to max str/dex/agi/con and meet the other int/cha requirements (again maxing I mean as 'getting racial maximum bonus' which would be for dwarf or halfling. Half-elf bards are absolutely impossible to max. Every stat on the left side is only in its highest notch when heroic or higher. Quite overwhelming.
Again, looking back this seems like a negative view, which I'm not trying to come across that way. Most everybody here is super helpful. What I don't like is knowing with only a few more points in agility, I would have almost 20 more AC points, and when I walk into gnolls or wandering orc captain and his unbelievably large 'I hate newbies walking to waterdeep' hoard, it could have possibly saved me. Then there's the option of sacrificing constitution for agi. I tried that too. 2 hitpoints less per level made me angry actually. that's like a 25% cut into hps gained per level. Bards aren't tanks as in one post, but with the lack of others my level what am I to do?
Thanks
Again, looking back this seems like a negative view, which I'm not trying to come across that way. Most everybody here is super helpful. What I don't like is knowing with only a few more points in agility, I would have almost 20 more AC points, and when I walk into gnolls or wandering orc captain and his unbelievably large 'I hate newbies walking to waterdeep' hoard, it could have possibly saved me. Then there's the option of sacrificing constitution for agi. I tried that too. 2 hitpoints less per level made me angry actually. that's like a 25% cut into hps gained per level. Bards aren't tanks as in one post, but with the lack of others my level what am I to do?
Thanks
Firstly, Waterdeep isn't where you want to be at level 1 :) There are several people with low level alts. or even new players that are in Scardale. My best suggestion is instead of entering the mud right away, start in the newbie area. There are tons of mobs to kill, cash to collect and eq that's pretty decent when you have nothing :) There's a bank and an Inn and the town square has a fountain that helps heal and spell up. There are several Quests, and lots of information to be found out.
Sservis wrote:What I would like to see is quick semi cookie cutter "noob" autorolls. An option where a mage could select a preset set of stats, say 80 str, 92 agi, 68 dex, maxnotch con, 62 pow, 100 int, 62 wis 62 cha. This uses up to 613 points depending on race [for the maxnotch con] and provides a very playable mage, but it can't compete with what is possible [100 str, 100 agi, 75ish dex, maxnotch con, 100 int] so it doesn't introduce game balance issues, just expedites the rolling for those that only care for "decent" stats.
That's a kickass idea Sservis ;)
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
auslyx wrote:The perspective I saw is there are virtually no low level chars, so if people were to reroll, given the option of possible bliss in statistics on rolls, the new players would actually find low levels to group with.
This does not happen. We reroll while kicking and screaming. Then we zoom up in levels in twinked out alts [or trade plvls amongst ourselves]. For reference, I just recently pushed an ogre war 1-20 in scardale in about 3:36 and he was only 30/30 or so and didn't have any really amazing weapons [used an uncursed "a shining mithril broadsword"]. Now the alt will sit at lvl 20 until I really feel like doing something with him, which isn't likely given the fact that I'm not partial to playing hitters [ogre wars aren't tanks].
Having people rexp would increase the xp options in the 35-50 range, but not that 1-34 range imo.
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
auslyx wrote:That idea seems really good! The only loss in time is the fact that I _could_ have been playing almost a week ago with stats that rendered basically either settling on bad agility, or mundane constitution. Compromise after compromise for bards. The cookie cutter would be a great way to ensure a modest bard too!
It would be hard with bards. The issue is that bards are forced to compromise between tanking ability [agi] and damage ability [dex/str]. Generally they don't compromise on mana [cha] or hitpoints [con]. A single cookie cutter bard would force one of the many compromise possibilities. The possibility for differing playing capabilities is a nice feature of bards. However, it also makes them a very "new person" unfriendly class.
Since I don't seem to have any eq near everybody else I saw, I am looking toward innate stats.
Hitters are highly eq dependant, while casters and tanks are less so. Yet another reason why I wouldn't suggest rolling a rogue/bard as a first character.
Again, as the other bards that have settled, are stating low stats basically MUST be accepted. Take an invoker for example. According to the earlier post from someone (the one about minimum racial constitution), a grey elf needs 87 con for max notch. - 87 con, 100 int, 96 or more agility?, and any decent str roll is a 'perfect' invoker. Those stats don't seem hard at all to hit.
Certain classes are harder to roll than others. Bards, Battlechanters, Dire Raiders, Rangers, Psionicists, Paladins, Anti-Paladins, and maybe even Warriors are particularly hard. For someone new to the game I would suggest a mage [invoker, elementalist, illusionist, necromancer [pets can be a pain], enchanter [spellup bish] roughly in that order], priest [cleric [easy function], shaman [easy to roll], druid in roughly that order], or Warrior [harder to roll for "perfect" stats, but easy to play]
Ogre and Barbarian Shamans are the easiest race/class to roll to "perfection" due to the level of constitution that they need to achieve maximum hp/lvl [1 in 6,000ish rolls will have perf str/agi/wis/maxnotch con after boosts]. Troll Warriors are the easiest race/class to level up, but there is also a glut of them at high levels for that very reason [and perfection is a bit harder, for instance they get max hp/lvl at 89 con, but they get another 1 hp/lvl at 106 con].
If I had to pick a set of race/classes [in no particular order] to suggest for new players it would be barb shaman, troll warrior, cleric [any good race or yuan-ti if going evil race], and invoker [any race].
I'd suggest that new players roll a mage/priest as follows
1) aim for perfect int/wis [depending on mage/priest], perf agi, maxnotch con
2) Accept a couple characters as you get better and better strengths [keep the best so far, etc]. DON"T WORRY ABOUT YOUR NAME, you can get it changed if you have a different race appropriate one in mind. [if anything pick a BAD name so that the imms force you to change it. I rememeber having to point out that I only had 8 hours of playing time on my one alt when I was told "we don't usually do renames after level 20". It also helped that his name was Ssanus [Ss-anus].]
3) Walk away when you can't take it any longer.
4) Roll until you can't take it any longer again. [Make a second attempt just to decrease the chances you'll decide later on they don't like the stats]
Bards aren't tanks as in one post, but with the lack of others my level what am I to do?
Pick a different class to start with until you understand the compromise choices better. [which won't really happen until you've played here a while with lvl 50 zoning experience, some would argue with multiple alts]
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
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bards have to balance between being a hitter and being a ghealer (enough hp eq to live through zones). I wouldnt consider them spellcasters based on their ability to cast some spells.
grey elves may smell funny, but its easy to get a sneak item for them in comparsion to other races.
grey elves may smell funny, but its easy to get a sneak item for them in comparsion to other races.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
kiryan wrote:grey elves may smell funny...
You're fired, mister!
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'
Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'
Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'
Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'
Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Dalar wrote:_bards are not hitters_
Sieg Heil!
Let us implement the final solution with any bards who masquerade as hitters.
Really Dalar, it's not that bad. Bards sing, and do some other things. Since they all sing about the same, it is on the other skills that they differentiate themselves. Much like any player is known for how far beyond their "role" they extend themselves while still handling their "role"
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
I agree with much of what Sservis said in his posts. Take note of the information he imparts concerning rolling characters and their notch points, he's done extensive research on it and probably knows more on the subject than anyone else, other than maybe one or two Imms.
His choices of characters to play as your first character is a good one. It took me almost an entire year to hit level 50 with Birile because he was my first character and no one at the time thought bards were very useful in exp groups. That outlook has changed a little, but as he mentioned, if you plan to hit, you are dependent on your eq. Find a good warrior around your level and do some duo exp, the warrior/bard combo rocks that way. :wink:
Lastly, feel free to look me up in the game and I'll help you out. I don't know any of your characters or I would approach you first. Here are my three main characters:
Birile Mightymouth (50 Halfling Bard)
Sunlireal (50 Grey Elf Elementalist)
Biron Bittertone (46 Orc Battlechanter)
Cheers!
His choices of characters to play as your first character is a good one. It took me almost an entire year to hit level 50 with Birile because he was my first character and no one at the time thought bards were very useful in exp groups. That outlook has changed a little, but as he mentioned, if you plan to hit, you are dependent on your eq. Find a good warrior around your level and do some duo exp, the warrior/bard combo rocks that way. :wink:
Lastly, feel free to look me up in the game and I'll help you out. I don't know any of your characters or I would approach you first. Here are my three main characters:
Birile Mightymouth (50 Halfling Bard)
Sunlireal (50 Grey Elf Elementalist)
Biron Bittertone (46 Orc Battlechanter)
Cheers!
Bards suck as a first character to ever play! They are a cross breed somewhat, so it's a lot better to stick with what sservis said. IMHO, bards stats suck ass anyway. The way the rolling system is set up, some classes are forced to take a hit. What I don't understand about the rolling system in general is how people have to 'in my opinion only' waste their time trying to get stats. Example. Earlier someone had an idea to put points wherever they wanted. That's the same damned thing that happens (ends justify the means??) when you sit on your ass for hours and watch the roller finally get a good hit for a rogue or whatever. Mudding is fun. Stat hunting is ghey!
Level: 1 Race: Dwarf Class: Bard
Age: 75 yrs / 0 mths Height: 48 inches Weight: 233 lbs
STR: perfect AGI: perfect DEX: perfect CON: average
POW: bad INT: good WIS: bad CHA: heroic
Armor Class: 70 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 6 Damroll: 6
Alignment: 0 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: What Load?
< 29h/29H 119p/119P 105v/105V >
Hang in there, little dude....DWARVES can make the cut. Had this roll been for a halfling, you'd add to constitution not dex/agi. Halflings need 'good' in con to have max con bonus (28 hps to start). HANG IN THERE! This is a racially perfect bard. -These stat's don't have to be this high, but bard is a really versatile class. When no shaman are around, you'll be getting invites left and right. Prolly even to accent a shaman even.
**also wanted to help in in saving time for half-elf or grey elf if you want to make a bard via that route. Half-elf needs a high 'fair' in constitution, while grey elves need 'mighty' in con to be top notched. Grey elves also need higher heroic in agility should you chose to max that stat. I believe a mighty in dex is good enough for a grey elf's 7 hitroll bonus. Trying to help, good luck!
Age: 75 yrs / 0 mths Height: 48 inches Weight: 233 lbs
STR: perfect AGI: perfect DEX: perfect CON: average
POW: bad INT: good WIS: bad CHA: heroic
Armor Class: 70 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 6 Damroll: 6
Alignment: 0 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: What Load?
< 29h/29H 119p/119P 105v/105V >
Hang in there, little dude....DWARVES can make the cut. Had this roll been for a halfling, you'd add to constitution not dex/agi. Halflings need 'good' in con to have max con bonus (28 hps to start). HANG IN THERE! This is a racially perfect bard. -These stat's don't have to be this high, but bard is a really versatile class. When no shaman are around, you'll be getting invites left and right. Prolly even to accent a shaman even.
**also wanted to help in in saving time for half-elf or grey elf if you want to make a bard via that route. Half-elf needs a high 'fair' in constitution, while grey elves need 'mighty' in con to be top notched. Grey elves also need higher heroic in agility should you chose to max that stat. I believe a mighty in dex is good enough for a grey elf's 7 hitroll bonus. Trying to help, good luck!
Last edited by Drache on Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Drache wrote:I posted that to show you A) Bards can be rolled, and B) don't give up. This mud, and its players are a very good investment! You may even be so lucky as to date one of Gormal's goats! :P
without an autoroller, bards are not a good choice. I'd bet he doesn't have one since this is his first pass at rolling. Also, since this is his first pass at rolling, his patience threshold just might be a bit lower.
Barb Shaman or Dwarf Cleric is the best good race option for "ultimate" stats without an autoroller. Both only need a 57 con to get the max notch. Toss in the fact that they don't have that many other stats to care about, and it's they are an easier race/class to roll.
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Sservis! I had a question for you since you've done so much testing with stats: Say you do have the min 57 con for the dwarf. Does that mean you chance of res is the same as if the con were perfect? In another post you put that only (sub)warriors get bonus for con when leveling. I can't figure out if high con helps for res or not. Seems common sense but I wanted to see if you had tested.
Drache wrote:Sservis! I had a question for you since you've done so much testing with stats: Say you do have the min 57 con for the dwarf. Does that mean you chance of res is the same as if the con were perfect? In another post you put that only (sub)warriors get bonus for con when leveling. I can't figure out if high con helps for res or not. Seems common sense but I wanted to see if you had tested.
I have not done any really rigorous tests. However I do have around 2000 logged resses. The result is that as far as I can tell con does have some impact, but it's very minimal.
Consider the numbers.
1) You die. wave good-bye to the xp [roughly 25% except when oddities in the code that I don't understand intrudes]
2) You are ressed, getting back 80% of that xp [roughly 20% to next level] if successful.
Consider fail rates. Overall the fail rate that I have witnessed is around 2-3%. Based on this average [2.5% res fail] a death will end up costing you 5.5% xp. However 5% of this is unavoidable. So if you could never fail a res, you would lose only 5% on death. Even if you managed to fail 10% of the time [obscenely high unless you're Deshana], the xp loss due to con would only be 2% per death. That's a really minimal hit in my book [and that's assuming worse that witnessed variances is ress rates].
My conclusion has been to roll for max notch that affects hp only [or 100 in the case of fighter classes] and acknowledge that I might fail a few more resses and so need to do a bit more xp, but I'd rather have the points in other stats [or finish rolling sooner]
Gura ASSOC:: 'man im such a prick'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'
Shar responds to your petition with 'do what we do. just stop listning to gura :P'
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