'Mental Rescue - Too Little, Too Late?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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'Mental Rescue - Too Little, Too Late?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:38 pm

Noticed mentals only start to try to rescue when you're basically dead already.

Shouldn't they be rescuing us a little earlier?
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Postby rer » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:25 pm

o followers resc name
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:31 pm

Too little, too late.

Also there's this thing called casting.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:43 pm

mentals autorescuing you might not be what you want. Best to leave the control up to the mage. Making them autorescue would be a downgrade imo.
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Postby rer » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:09 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Also there's this thing called casting.


Abort
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:57 am

Ele's are a weak tank, not a bodyguard.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:20 am

rer wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Also there's this thing called casting.


Abort


Certainly, but having to type two commands while being beaten to death is kinda the whole point of having auto rescue.
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Postby Salen » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:30 am

Are you seriously complaining that elementalists are too weak now?
emote Rescuepractice
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:49 am

Sure he is! But when he actually learns the class he'll realize just what I said before. Ele's are weak tanks, if you want bodyguards, have a smelly dwarf or a superior grey elf hero, er bodyguard around.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:28 pm

Seriously, elementals aren't meant to keep you totally safe. They're there to tank for you, but even Elementalists should have to face some sort of risk, and if your pet auto-rescued you immediately every time, what kind of risk would there be? Look at all the classes on the mud and ask yourself how many of them have a guarantee to not get pounded by mobs whenever they're soloing.

You don't want to get pounded on? Get a group with a sentient rescuer, flee the room, abort your spell and order your mental to rescue... there's all sorts of options other than giving Elementalists what amounts to a free ride.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:33 pm

I'm not dicussing the success or failure of autorescue, but it would be nice to see the mental trying.

You know, there is a skill level aspect with the mentals.
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Postby Bilraex » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:39 pm

feh if you pulled me from my home plane against my will i wouldnt rescue you either. Nothing wrong with pet autorescue, its just there as a last ditched effort when you getting yer ass kicked.
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Postby rer » Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:02 pm

Mental rescue works just fine.

Getting pounded? Fight easier mobs or mobs that dont switch.
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Postby rarlaj » Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:51 pm

land a pwb that you ellies are so fond of...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:42 pm

Well that's the thing. It's a last ditch effort that might as well have not been made.

It's just a pointless feature, that could be made pointful if the elemental would rescue sooner.

It would also be a great boon to those of us who dont' wear rings of elemental control, or wield staves of the ancients, or have 800+ hitpoints from all the gear someone else quested for us.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:58 pm

when possible, walk out of the battle as you see the switch message .. abort your spell and flee if you have assisted .. stay ungrouped (pets steal kill xp anyway).. don't assist til its pwb/feeb ... cuts down on being pounded... can also develop a pet rescue trigger set much like the rescue triggers warriors use . little laggy, but effective

there are tricks and little things you learn abgout the class as you play it and level it up ..

you will soon find that elementalists are sooo much fun .. and when you discover all you can solo, you will learn to appreciate those lovely pets :)

-Aerisia Starshadow grey elf elementalist
Last edited by Ambar on Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:08 pm

I'm suggesting a change to the class, not that the class is too difficult.

The autorescue comes in too late to help out someone who is eq'ed for their level.
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:37 pm

Increasing the likelihood of an auto-rescue impacts the class all the way up however, from level 21 up to 50. Furthermore, it does affect other pet classes such as necromancers and shamans. By changing the timing on when a pet attempts to rescue their master, it will impact the higher level game far more than the lower because the pets will be higher level. This suggestion does dramatically increase the power of all pet classes at a high level while making it potentially easier on them at the lower level.

Short of an illogical game control to make higher level pets less likely to rescue their master, I would be opposed to the idea. Sorry :(
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:39 am

Point taken. Wouldn't want to help out the higher level players.
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Postby Nekelet » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:11 am

Got sarcasm?

Her point was she *could* change the pet AI, but then I'd be walking around with 2 to 5 warriors that I no longer had to order to rescue, thereby eliminating my order lag (substantial on rescues) and allowing me to nuke/heal non-stop.

Seem a little overpowered...?


Wait, what am I saying, implement this at once! :P
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Postby Nekelet » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:14 am

teflor the ranger wrote:I'm suggesting a change to the class, not that the class is too difficult.

The autorescue comes in too late to help out someone who is eq'ed for their level.


I'd say autorescue 'sometimes' comes in too late. More than occasionally, a pet rescue (mentals) has come in just in time for me to dust myself off, and run away screaming.

Now as nec/lich: its almost always too late. if I'm bashed or otherwise lagged and cant order rescue, I'm dead. (!stone sux.)
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:28 am

teflor the ranger wrote:It would also be a great boon to those of us who dont' wear rings of elemental control, or wield staves of the ancients, or have 800+ hitpoints from all the gear someone else quested for us.


This is pretty ignorant statement. Learn how to play the class. Learn to master a situation. So what if a mob switches. Abort, leave, re-enter. You lose in memtime. Big deal. Complaining and wanting this ungodly powerful class to be even more enhanced is just silly. Having 800 hps as you put it is irrelevant given you're complaining about losing one stupid spell in aborting it. I've seen you numerous times just killing on BRG. If you spent more time zoning, you'd have better eq to help an alt.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:24 am

Looks like he'd rather complain and try to get the class changed to his vision rather than attempt to learn how to play it. :p
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:36 am

pet rescue is almost always too late in my experience. I've lost far too many hps by the time it gets around to rescuing... Can't say ive ever been saved by my pet, probably because im not stupid enough to cut it that close.

my opinion: pets should auto rescue you within 1 round, shouldn't lag you on rescue, and they probably shouldn't be lagged when rescuing you so they can still do what they are supposed to be doing like bash... (order lag would handle chain rescuing).

and this should especially if your casting or unable to order (like silenced or bashed)... Perhaps with certain kind of "smarter" pets
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:12 am

Thilindel wrote:This is pretty ignorant statement. Learn how to play the class.


Thilindel, you're the stupidest ass I've seen on the bbs.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:13 am

Nekelet wrote:Got sarcasm?


I wasn't being sarcastic. Eil's point was taken, and I really would not want to have helped out the higher level players.

Furthermore, I know how to play the class. I already do abort, I already do order rescues as necessary with triggers and aliases to help reduce the lag or wait, and I already do walk out on switches.

The fact of the matter is that I was suggesting a change based on experience, and that is one of a level ~28ish elementalist that wasn't blessed from the fruits of another character's zoning (you see, unlike some of you, I actually play the game), killing mobs around bgr, zombies, etc etc for experience.

It's my stated and correct observation that mental autorescue is virtually useless around this level because by the time the mental starts to try to rescue you, you're probably going to die.

Eil made the point that to bump up rescue would have effects further up in levels that would make the elementist class far more potent than the effects at the midlevel range would be.

Now if you would all get your damned heads out of your asses, the thread can die.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:08 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Thilindel wrote:This is pretty ignorant statement. Learn how to play the class.


Thilindel, you're the stupidest ass I've seen on the bbs.


Alright you ignorant twit...Y is it there isn't a thread you can start without you having a fight? Good god, boy, quit complaing, quit starting fights, quit being sooooo predictible! Learn to play. Quit bitching about classes that are beyond the power of any other. Calm the hell down period.

It's a shame that someone can be so blindly stupid and hateful as you.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:21 am

Because stupidity is everywhere, Thilindel. And it looks to be that you're the one who is complaining. And that stirring conversation on the mud that you started, in which you call me an ignorant, non-english speaking, stupidity struck moron that everyone fights with because I'm so fucked up and don't have the common sense to see so I play a ranger.

Thilindel, you're the biggest, dumbest ass I have ever spoken to and you've really shown me with that.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:36 am

_How_ many people have gotten in fights with you? You're so self-righteous and pretentious. It's a shame that you pollute almost every thread with your negative attitude. I'm done with replying to you. You are simply insatiable in seeking fights, and prompting arguments with your attitude. Any entries you make in this thread is for your own entertainment, I'm done here. You clearly need help.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:44 am

Funny thing is that I sought no fight. Furthermore, why the hell should I care about what you think? You want negative attitude? Look at what you've been saying, and how you've been saying it.

Be done with it, and never pick a fight with me again. You are severely outclassed.
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:14 am

I just wanted to get my post in before this thread gets locked!

Oh, there is *no* reason to have pets autorescue. The fact that they even attempt sometimes is nice...but it's not meant to be relied on or anything.

Get your mentalist up in the levels, and in time, you will learn how to cope with rescue/switch/whatever situations. Anyone can play a mentalist, but it takes someone who is constantly experimenting and testing stuff to really master the class. I think my mentalist has been 50 for 2 years or so...and i still trade tricks with fellow mentalists almost daily:)
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Postby Demuladon » Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:45 am

There only situations when a pet should rescue are those dictated by the player.

Automatic pet rescue should be eliminated completely.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:18 pm

I'm all for elimination, as elemental autorescue doesn't seem to be at all effective for a normal player bringing up a first or second character.
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Postby Vena » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:17 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Thilindel wrote:This is pretty ignorant statement. Learn how to play the class.


Thilindel, you're the stupidest ass I've seen on the bbs.


He may be, but he's not wrong in this case. The class works as is for numerous people and pet classes are some of the most capable in the game today...

You don't even know how to play a ranger a very 1 dimensional class.
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Postby Vena » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:24 pm

Demuladon wrote:There only situations when a pet should rescue are those dictated by the player.

Automatic pet rescue should be eliminated completely.


Why? whats the first thing you do when your in trouble in real life, shout for help. Its not possible for you in the current game dynamics to execute any commands in the most common form of lag, command lag. One of the more common times you are in command lag is when your bashed... shouldnt you be able to verbalize a cry for help when bashed? I mean stunned might be another thing, but simply knocked on your ass shouldnt preclude the ability to vocalize. And this assumes that pets only respond to verbal commands, id like to think some pets might be more intelligent (and understand they are to protect the master at all costs) or have a mental link to their master.

It would be a boon for existing pet masters... one I'm certain they don't need, but I still think should be impd.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:16 pm

Kiryan .. log Vena off before posting :P

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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:00 am

Vena wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Thilindel wrote:This is pretty ignorant statement. Learn how to play the class.


Thilindel, you're the stupidest ass I've seen on the bbs.


He may be, but he's not wrong in this case. The class works as is for numerous people and pet classes are some of the most capable in the game today...

You don't even know how to play a ranger a very 1 dimensional class.


The ranger class is hardly a 1 dimensional class. I understand things may be funneled like that into a single dimensional mind, but there are those who know better.

Furthermore, his statement was completely off. There is a definite imbalance introduced to the game dynamic when you roll a level 1 elementist with a level 50 elementist's equipment.

You don't know a class until you've been there, and I mean really been there, purchasing gloves and spellbooks, scrounging for plats when you go to practice, pilfering equipment from wherever you can find it.

That's playing the game.

It is difficult to account for both sides and only thinking in one direction won't assist in improving the game.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:19 am

new players .. BRAND new players start mudding every day .. often they chose elementalists or other pet classes...

there is nothing wrong with the class, anyone just starting out can play them with a little coaching

EQ has little to do with it ..

skill and learning the class has everything to do with it

Tef, lots of people have offered different suggestions as to how to playt he class, little tricks, etc .. sure I had decent eq when leveling my mentalist, but honestly if i couldnt play the class i STILL would have gotten nowhere ...

Look out of the box and read the suggestions we have made .. we HAVE been there .. I dont think Ambar loaded at lvl 1 with oober eq, it came with time ...
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:53 am

Yes, but you're still ignoring the fact that there's two games here.

Where elemental autoassist is concerned at the midlevel:

If you don't have the benefits of already having a great equipment set:
The mental attempts to auto rescue when you reach nasty wounds. It gets one and a half chances before you splat.

If you do have the benefits of already having a great equipment set:
The mental attempts to auto rescue when you reach nasty wounds. The only problem is that he doesn't tank quite as well as you do.

These are the two games available on the mud.

As a balancing measure, I posted the suggestion to make auto assist kick in earlier, say at few wounds.

Thus allowing autorescue to become useful, rather than the useless state it is currently in.

I do know both these games, and that is the sole reason why I suggested this adjustment. No suggestions I have seen here are not things I already employ in my playing the class. It's the fact that I can see a need for balance that moves me to make this suggestion.

Furthermore, Ambar, EQ does have A LOT to do with the game dynamic. Unless you mean to tell me that you play the same way when you have -11 AC, and -100. Or if you take the same risks when you have 200 hit points, as opposed to 800.
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Postby Demuladon » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:31 am

Vena asked:
Why?


Three main reasons:

(i) Pet auto-rescue may not be the optimum response to a situation. A pet auto-response is a reduction in pet control. I believe that reducing a players control over his/her pets is a downgrade. Even pet auto-assist is a pain in the butt when fleeing multiple tracking mobs. Remove auto-assist!

(ii) A player should not rely on pet rescue. A lvl50 air pet will still fail rescue occassionally - much better bet is to train the newbie mage to flee/leave the room if switched to.

(iii) Autorescue will be seen as an upgrade to pet classes.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:21 am

Any adjustments in pet behevior is at the same time an upgrade and a downgrade to the class.

The effects are two-fold in that:

There is a negative side,
Some control over the mental is lost.

and

There is a positive side,
It is more likely to rescue you in time.

It's my feeling that this will benefit the elementists who rely more heavily on their mentals to tank, however, lack of control over the elemental can pose more difficulties in zone.

It seems that this would be a good adjustment to make.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:22 pm

Demuladon wrote:Vena asked:
Why?


Three main reasons:

(i) Pet auto-rescue may not be the optimum response to a situation. A pet auto-response is a reduction in pet control. I believe that reducing a players control over his/her pets is a downgrade. Even pet auto-assist is a pain in the butt when fleeing multiple tracking mobs. Remove auto-assist!

(ii) A player should not rely on pet rescue. A lvl50 air pet will still fail rescue occassionally - much better bet is to train the newbie mage to flee/leave the room if switched to.

(iii) Autorescue will be seen as an upgrade to pet classes.


thats why i said auto pet rescuing of its master should not lag the pet or the master so there is no downgrade in "control" which could prove to be a serious problem.... of course it shouldnt be able to rescue you 20x in one round.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Sesexe » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:12 pm

Eilistraee wrote:Increasing the likelihood of an auto-rescue impacts the class all the way up however, from level 21 up to 50. Furthermore, it does affect other pet classes such as necromancers and shamans. By changing the timing on when a pet attempts to rescue their master, it will impact the higher level game far more than the lower because the pets will be higher level. This suggestion does dramatically increase the power of all pet classes at a high level while making it potentially easier on them at the lower level.

Short of an illogical game control to make higher level pets less likely to rescue their master, I would be opposed to the idea. Sorry :(


Agreed. This same reasoning was listed under a previous discussion about why ordering pets to do skills had to keep their lag.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:01 am

Earlier I quoted Nekelet, responded and proceeded to talk about other things in that post. Meant no particular offense to Nek, sorry.
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Postby selerial » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:15 am

teflor the ranger wrote:Well that's the thing. It's a last ditch effort that might as well have not been made.

It's just a pointless feature, that could be made pointful if the elemental would rescue sooner.

It would also be a great boon to those of us who dont' wear rings of elemental control, or wield staves of the ancients, or have 800+ hitpoints from all the gear someone else quested for us.


Elementals auto-rescue? Must be a new feature... Sarcasm aside, I've probably relied on an ellie auto-rescue all of.. oh.. 0 seconds of the years I've played an ellie.

As far as being a boon, I hate to be snobbish here, but it sounds quite a bit more like you need to learn the class, rather than boosting the abilities of the mentals. We have the following tools which rank infinitely higher than mental auto-rescue (in no particular order):

1. Power Word Blind
2. Earth Embody (or Air or, if you're lucky, Fire)
3. Stone Skin
4. Being able to order pets to rescue
5. Invis
6. Teleport
7. Sleep (not so useful anymore, but still much more useful than autorescue)
8. Random paras from Earthblood
9. Glitterdust
10. The ability to solo (certain) zones
11. The "flee" command (it's so good, all classes have it)

Of course, Eilistraee already said she was against boosting auto-rescue, and I agree with that. We have so many tools, I've always had this little nagging in my head like I'm getting away with something by being able to do almost anything, and that some day I'd wake up and we'd lose some important spell. I'm glad to say we haven't yet.

Oh, one last point... I can't speak for all ellies, but I think that many of us stuck with our class because it allows us to learn areas and get certain eq *by ourselves*. The fact that you'd insinuate that I (as an ellie) had other people get my eq (which only gets me to 600+ hps.. 800.. I wish) means you're either dealing with ellies that I haven't dealt with, or you don't understand our ways.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:12 am

selerial wrote:As far as being a boon, I hate to be snobbish here, but it sounds quite a bit more like you need to learn the class


It sounds like you need to read the thread.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:31 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
selerial wrote:As far as being a boon, I hate to be snobbish here, but it sounds quite a bit more like you need to learn the class


It sounds like you need to read the thread.


actually, Tef .. he hit the nail on the head

most of us have said the same thing in different ways
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:18 pm

And still, neither of you can produce a response concerning the actual gameplay. Telling me to "learn to play the class" is an unnecessary insult, as I can play the class just fine. (again, none of your suggestions are not things I already implement in my gameplay, and none of the ideas tossed out have been particularly creative or unique)

The only solution offered is that people have to "learn how to play the class" which is in no way an 1) elegant solution 2) sensible solution 3) actual solution.

You technically could say this to any problem with any class on any mud.

Essentially what I am saying is that you have offered just a penny above nothing - and the problem remains.

Furthermore, what is being asked for is not even considered an upgrade by experienced elementists, which is all the more reason why I believe it should be implemented.

Reviewing what was posted by Eil, I actually do have some commentary to offer on what was said about elementists. Higher level elementists should retain a higher level of control over their elementals, so perhaps an "illogical control" making higher level elementals auto-rescue later would actually logical.

Still, over all auto-rescue could use a little more adjustment, whether an upgrade to the class or a downgrade. It's time to rock the elementist's collective boat.
selerial
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Postby selerial » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:25 am

Indeed, my post was full of suggestions for gameplay.

Since you need it to be spelled out a bit further, let's see what I can do.

Basically, I think I've seen a pet auto-rescue about 6 times in the three years since I started playing again. At least three of those were actually in the arena. In probably about one instance, the auto-rescue saved me from dying in a non-arena setting (and the other two times I would have been able to flee anyways).

What this essentially means is that.. it's just a non-factor as far as playing the class goes. What you're suggesting to do is make it a factor. However, I listed eleven "abilities" which rank higher than this non-factor ability, and if you want to boost auto-rescue, you're probably going to have to weaken or eliminate multiple items on the list.

I'm all for suggestions as to how to enhance the game, but elemental auto-rescue boosting is somewhere behind my post about level 50s in terms of when it's going to be implemented (and I don't expect my suggestion to get implemented any time this eon).

Now, making the hit-or-miss nature of earthblood para (it lands.. but doesn't have an effect, or kicks in a turn or three later) is something that I'd sort of like to see addressed.. but even then, it's a gratuitous effect that can wait for Kingdom Code, Tiamat, et al.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:46 am

The whole problem was that auto-rescue was a non-factor.

That would be why it needs changing.

I do agree it would be nice to see advances in game development, rather than fixes.

But this is something that needs looking at.

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