Suggestion for Necro/ Lich

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malakwee
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Suggestion for Necro/ Lich

Postby malakwee » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:34 pm

Suggestion for Necro

- a utility spell that allows them protect all in group from undead
- a utility spell that allows wraithform to others only

Suggestion for Lich

- a utility spell that allows caster to load at a place of casting after death instead of loading in hometown if death occur within duration of spell
- a utility spell that allows wraithform to self only

just idea
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:18 pm

My suggestion for lich would be a 'life walk' spell but it requires target's consent. Where lich drains target's life in order to walk there. Just the demand to walk to one life should drain the lich of 50% or more hps.
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Postby malakwee » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:45 pm

What i was suggesting is giving some balance to necro and lich

Mebbe wraithform can be key to making groups wanna invite necros in...
Among benefits could be reducing damage and reducing spell damage...

As for lich we got a more firepower than Necro imo. So a different utility spell was what i suggested in addition to wraithform to self only...

the benefit of the other spell for lich is so that if group is totally spanked, at least lich could still load in a place say within the zone instead of returning to hometown after death... and that could help a lot in CR and regrouping.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:53 pm

Wraithform would be such an incredibly powerful ability, what with not being able to be bashed, being able to pass through locked doors, etc, etc, etc, not to mention not getting hit by !magic weapons. My first instinct would be to think 'absolutely not, no way in hell, fahgettaboudit,' but I suppose there's a lot of concessions that might make it feasible. The spell/ability would have to have so many negatives to it, that it would only be used in most dire of emergencies... say... severing of the ties to the mortal body resulting in immediate physical death with the wraithform able to continue existing for a limited time before passing on to the next life?
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:55 pm

Oh, and in that same vein... there's your sacrifice for CR, should one ever leave a key inside a zone. Get a lich to wraithform inside and unlock the door, with automatic loss of corpse. I still think that's too powerful an ability to dole out to a PC, but it's worth a thought.
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malakwee
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Postby malakwee » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:36 pm

it does not have to be wraithform... mebbe call it something else that only reduce malee damage and reduce spell damage to target... mebbe only one can be maintained at one time... like embody by elementalist

cept that this could only be cast to others by a living necro... and cant be cast on himself whereas

the same spell could be cast by necro to himself only and not to others...

It is just that it is a spell to allow necro slightly more edge so that they could be grouped as well.... and hence we will be able to see more people chosing to play necro too
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Postby Botef » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:39 pm

If you make a wraithform spell, it would go without saying that any eq worn by the player should drop to the ground or be in your inventory, which makes it useless as a spell in most situations where it would be applied to melee players with the exception of naked cr's, and SPOB.
Allowing players to pass through doors is definatly without a doubt not something that should come to be.

I also think Lichs are powerful enough on there own from what I've seen, and that there needs to be some new necro abilities added that don't give lichs any alternative versions of these spells, unless people come to admit that lichs are a prestige class of a necro and that there is virtually no reason to stay a necromancer.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:42 pm

Please remember, any spell that isn't specifically a quest spell, is castable by a lich's pets. Therefor if you are suggesting a necro only spell, just make a habbit of indicating that it's a quest spell as well.

I have no comments otherwise. Just watching the conversation and seeing where it goes this time. Carry on. Nothing to see here.
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Postby selerial » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:20 pm

I think there needs to be a bit more definition as to what is meant by wraithform, because there's already a class that gets two "wraithform" spells. But if you're fire or air embodied, you still can't pass door, it just makes bashing a bit less reliable.

As far as being able to say burn a corpse (even npc corpses that are high enough to make wraiths, say) to make someone wraithform, I think that might be an interesting ability, assuming again that passdoor isn't included.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:24 pm

I'd vote for giving necros a version of elemental embody that doesnt stack with elemental embody.

walking through locked doors is still a nono, especially !pick doors...

I'd like to see a corpse recovery spell. Give it a 500 p reagent. This wouldnt make necros any more likely to get a group invite however.

I'd also like to see necros get a feign death spell that would work like camo for the whole group or just one person, individually in both cases.... be broken by casting, moving, using innates, ect... gsay and acc would be ok though.
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Postby Botef » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:50 pm

kiryan wrote:

I'd like to see a corpse recovery spell. Give it a 500 p reagent. This wouldnt make necros any more likely to get a group invite however.



Woohoo, something to do other than rejuv peoples :p
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:44 pm

kiryan wrote:I'd vote for giving necros a version of elemental embody that doesnt stack with elemental embody.


Necros don't need embody. Their pets are already ungodly powerful, we don't need to be giving them extra solo abilities. I haven't played my necro or lich in awhile, but as i recall, the ability to have a pair of 1600hp tanks was pretty ungodly. Not to mention the flexibility of pet combos, or the damage/debuff/spellup abilities of ghosts/wraiths. Does soul walk work in !tele areas? Is vamp curse still really hard to land? I'd think we could modify their current spellset a bit to give necros a little boost. IMO, they aren't much worse than a lich..shrug. Although, given how all the lich quest info is handed to any ordinary noob, and the hardest parts of the lich quest have become routine, a lich doen't really deserve any increase in power over a necro.

Oh, and while I'm talking necros-the oblivion dagger quest should be reworked. It used to require the best neck/ring/hitter belt/boots to quest. The dagger has since been upgraded substantially, and all of those items are 2nd rate now. You don't sacrifice anything except gear you woudln't use anyways, and you are rewarded with a powerful proc weapon, with killer stats, that is also the centerpiece of several difficult quests. I'd propose that a seelie ring/ttf belt/sf neckguard/magma boots be substituted. Make the quest hurt like it used to:P

Sorry to those of you who read my mindless rantings! Havea nice day|
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Postby bimble » Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:03 pm

I'd think we could modify their current spellset a bit to give necros a little boost. IMO, they aren't much worse than a lich..shrug. Although, given how all the lich quest info is handed to any ordinary noob, and the hardest parts of the lich quest have become routine, a lich doen't really deserve any increase in power over a necro.


I think its been proven recently that you can essentially "buy" lichdom since some or most of the items are not prime items anymore. Necros probably deserve some more attention to make them more attractive.

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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:13 pm

bimble wrote:
I'd think we could modify their current spellset a bit to give necros a little boost. IMO, they aren't much worse than a lich..shrug. Although, given how all the lich quest info is handed to any ordinary noob, and the hardest parts of the lich quest have become routine, a lich doen't really deserve any increase in power over a necro.


I think its been proven recently that you can essentially "buy" lichdom since some or most of the items are not prime items anymore. Necros probably deserve some more attention to make them more attractive.

Bimble


http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14931


In my opinion, people don't play their necro/lichs much because they don't like 'pet maintenance' more then anything else.
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Postby Botef » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:39 pm

Necromancers lack in the damage department as a zoning class. Yes, their pets are pretty tough and can take on a lot of mobs most people cringe to think about fighting solo, but in terms of targeted damage in zones - they really suck a lot of the time. While soul walk can be really useful in a small handful of zones, a lot of times its not going to warrent the lack in damage. Pets shouldnt even come into question when comparing lichs to necros - they both get them so this shouldnt be the focus here in why necros need more to make them useful.

The biggest issue I see is Necromancers have no real way to damage a large majority of mobs. Golems, mephits, etc are immune to all the high-circle targeted spells leaving cone of cold as the only alternative for damage. I dont mind this , I think the concept of lichs being a damage based class and necros being a more utility type class make sense, but I cant help but feel that necros simply dont have enough function in zones as they currently are.

This is all further brought home by the fact that just about every necromancer on this mud plans on becoming a lich from the start, and the general disinterest by most players to even bother helping quest necro spells. People are very willing to help you quest lichdom, but ask people to help get ONE item for vamp cure, or to help you quest soul walk and you can expect a lot of "whys?" and "Whats the point?" from people.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:41 pm

Maedor wrote:
kiryan wrote:I'd vote for giving necros a version of elemental embody that doesnt stack with elemental embody.


Necros don't need embody. Their pets are already ungodly powerful, we don't need to be giving them extra solo abilities. I haven't played my necro or lich in awhile, but as i recall, the ability to have a pair of 1600hp tanks was pretty ungodly. Not to mention the flexibility of pet combos, or the damage/debuff/spellup abilities of ghosts/wraiths. Does soul walk work in !tele areas? Is vamp curse still really hard to land? I'd think we could modify their current spellset a bit to give necros a little boost. IMO, they aren't much worse than a lich..shrug. Although, given how all the lich quest info is handed to any ordinary noob, and the hardest parts of the lich quest have become routine, a lich doen't really deserve any increase in power over a necro.


I'm not sure where your getting 1600 hp tanks, my spectres are 450-580. Vamp touching gets them up to 800ish on average and occasionally i see a 1100.

Soul walk does work in !tele which is awesome, unfortunately you still have to dispose of the corpse. Vamp curse WAS impossible to land because it could not land on a mob with fire/cold shield up. Haven't tested it since Eil fixed it up. I'd like to see it tested against dragons where it may prove very useful.

I'm flabbergasted you would say there isnt much difference between necros and liches. You should read sesexe's article she linked above. First and foremost is their tremendous single target damage output then its their area damage output, and second would be death pact. Pet areas were drastically weakened a while back, i don't think they are worth casting anymore.

I would assume that liches would continue to remain the damage part of the equation (since they just got a new damage spell), which relegates necros to the utility side. An embody type spell would be a great utili ty offering that worked well for making elementalists a group worthy class.
I hear your concern however about giving them additional solo power, perhaps it should not be a spell they should be able to cast on themselves.

however... their solo power pales in comparison to that of a lich, so what would be the harm in giving them additional ability? gotta wonder why lichs solo better and are more groupable than necros
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Grunelda » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:03 pm

Soul walk does work in !tele which is awesome, unfortunately you still have to dispose of the corpse. Vamp curse WAS impossible to land because it could not land on a mob with fire/cold shield up. Haven't tested it since Eil fixed it up. I'd like to see it tested against dragons where it may prove very useful.

I'm flabbergasted you would say there isnt much difference between necros and liches. You should read sesexe's article she linked above. First and foremost is their tremendous single target damage output then its their area damage output, and second would be death pact. Pet areas were drastically weakened a while back, i don't think they are worth casting anymore.


I agree K.

Giving Necros some kind of wraithform wouldnt be to bad is worth a look at. At least give vamp curse and bump for use with dragons. eager to see if that adds to the current testing o dragon fights.

Lichs and Necros are really two differing animals. As a lich I can solo much much faster . There is no time sinks since we can heal,dmg with pets. Of course I'm stuck walking and fear global trackers.

A smart necro with something like wraithform would be a good addition to most groups.
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:33 pm

I'll have to bust out my pets a bit-but i swear I've vamped them up to, or around 1500hp before...And each of them could probably solo a double pop of giants--specs are crazy tanks imo. I still can't say i agree with the new pet rules allowing a necro/lich to have 2 of these.

Am I the only one who sees soul walk as a significant advantage? Eliminating ressfx while zoning would be *so* nice. But, I hate zoning more than an hour or 3...so anything to speed up the 'downtimes' (resses) is awesome in my book.

Lich touch recently got downgraded a bit, so liches lost a bit of their damage edge. Beltyns seemed to do pretty comprable damage anways, but it couldn't hurt all mobs.

Elementalists are still not much of a zoning class. There are very few ele's who I'd consider a solid addition to a zone group...

Necros/liches are two of the strongest classes in the game. Most of this is derived from their pets, and the damage/tanking/healing (each other)/utility/debuffing that they provide. I reallydon't feel that either of these classes should gain any new powers without having their pets toned down a bit.

I'd be all for necros getting some sort of zoning skill to help their groupability, but it really shouldn't be some ungodly spell like wraithform, or even embody.

You know-if bards lost ress song, then necros would become more useful. Of course, then we'd have to think up some cool new bard love...but it would probably be a big step in the 'necros are useful' direction.

At work-sorry for the mindless babble!
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:51 pm

kiryan wrote:Vamp curse WAS impossible to land because it could not land on a mob with fire/cold shield up. Haven't tested it since Eil fixed it up. I'd like to see it tested against dragons where it may prove very useful.


You read my mind. All the current talks about dragon fights are making Vamp Curse sound more and more necessary. I like that, and I can't even cast it.

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