Magic Resistance too low?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Magic Resistance too low?

Postby Dalar » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:56 pm

With the change to MR (percentage blocked instead of percentage to block fully), MR seems rather useless. Could the current items with MR be increased so MR actually means something?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Nekelet
Sojourner
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:54 pm

Postby Nekelet » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:48 pm

Agree.
At least before you had the ever so slight chance to have MR save yer tail.
Now, what's the point.
"ooh, I only took 98. That extra 2dam might have killed me!"

Stack MR & multiply current percentage by 5? 10?
*shrug*
rer
Sojourner
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:19 pm

Postby rer » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:56 pm

I think Nekelet's post makes sense... As far as I can tell, MR doesn't stack. You either have 1MR or 0MR, regardless of how many 1MR items you're wearing. Therefore, at the very least, stacking them would be good.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:31 pm

I'd like it possible to have a 80% MR player who only has 400 hps.

What I hope we don't see is MR added to a bunch of high end items so instead of just being 700 hps all prot great saves and ac, they are also +10% MR...

I think this should be possible if MR can be accounted for well in the eq calcr.

well as in not how AC and HPs and save eq are currently balanced....

you should be able to have:

a 900 hp mage with shit ac and crap saves 0 MR
an 800 hp mage with good saves very low MR
a 750 hp mage with good saves and prots and some ac some MR
a 700 hp mage with good ac and saves and some MR
a 600 hp mage with great ac saves and prots and some MR
a 500 hp mage with great ac and lots of MR
a 400 hp mage with great MR and ac
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
Gura
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Yer girlfriend's bed

Postby Gura » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:45 am

why should mages be allowed to have a great ac? doesnt make sense to me.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'

Nokie wiggles his bottom.
Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'
Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
Bilraex
Sojourner
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Postby Bilraex » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:21 am

Att shows mr as stacking, whether it actually does i have no clue.
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:38 am

Gura wrote:why should mages be allowed to have a great ac? doesnt make sense to me.


Mages have always had the best AC, especially in DnD, where they usually outstrip the warriors.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:17 am

since when did mages get the best ac?

i always remember classes that could wear plate and sheilds had the best ac.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:32 am

Magic Resistance: 1%

...... nice. Gotta find 24 more of those things.
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:50 pm

Yeah... my spob mage robe isn't sweet enough with only 3% MR. Upgrade mightily!
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Re: Magic Resistance too low?

Postby moritheil » Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:06 pm

Dalar wrote:With the change to MR (percentage blocked instead of percentage to block fully), MR seems rather useless. Could the current items with MR be increased so MR actually means something?


Percentage blocking is actually better for you than chance blocking, since chance blocking is unreliable. In terms of utility, chance blocking may be better, since as Nek pointed out, it can, every once in a while, save your hide.

Re: Kiryan, it should not be possible to have 80% MR. That's obscenely high, and ensures that even a tiny amount of healing would go really far (i.e. via potion or something). Unless, of course, you want to apply MR to healing as well, which is just goofy.

MR is still a novelty/style thing at this moment. I don't think they intended MR to supplant saves as a superior thing.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'
Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:01 pm

At this point, I'd rather have a 2% random chance to shrug an 800 damage spell instead of a 100% chance to deduct 2% of that damage, simply because the amount of damage you're not taking is so minimal even a cure light would offset it most of the time. Sure if you do the math, it's exactly the same, but in a combat situation you don't care about saving 16hps from an 800 damage spell, you care about shrugging the spell entirely.

So if the system is going to remain the way it is, perhaps MR items need to be modified (increased) to accomodate the change, as well as changing the point value in the areas calculator for compensation. Perhaps a 100% increase (this would raise the player cap to 40%, but this could remain the same old 20% pending balance issues) would be fair across the board on all items. That would make the current serpent armor 10% damage reduction (unless I'm mistaken about it still being 5 MR). 80 damage off an 800 damage spell is a lot more feasible to me.

Just my thoughts.

Deathmagnet
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:58 pm

Ahem. Why can't it be both? MR 2% provides 1% protection and 1% chance for shrug?
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:07 am

I like that idea. Make it so!
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:44 am

That's a very nice idea, though as I said, I think people may be making a grave error in assuming that MR was intended to supplant saves and prots in terms of utility.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:34 pm

I have a hard time with the idea of giving huge amounts of magic resistance to players, allowing them to bypass damage in zones almost entirely, as long as they are not the tank. I think the most MR should give is MAYBE up to 25% resistance, and that still seems awfully high, with 15% being a much more appealing number to me.

Taking away the risk of catching the occasional area spell removes almost all the last of the risk to non-tanking groupmembers in a zone.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Kegor
Sojourner
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Contact:

Postby Kegor » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:43 am

Just to shed a little light on this for you. It was decided long ago by the staff when magic resistance items started going in the game that no player should have more than 20% MR. I am pretty sure that has not changed. Judging by the way that slots and numbers were picked as they added more magic resistance items, it seems to still be the case.

* Zoom

Magic resistance is even more overrated than ever before imo as well.
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:58 pm

20% chance to completely *shrug* a spell, not 20% damage reduction.

Huge huge difference now that the code has been rewritten.
Tasan
Sojourner
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fridley, Mn USA
Contact:

Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:24 pm

The code change wasn't intended for PCs. Differentiation between PC MR and mobs might be in order, but having 15%+ shrug rates? Um...no?

Every zone except the epics is a cakewalk now for most groups, why make things all the more easy.

!!x
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'

Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'

Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Magic Resistance too low?

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:00 am

moritheil wrote:
Dalar wrote:With the change to MR (percentage blocked instead of percentage to block fully), MR seems rather useless. Could the current items with MR be increased so MR actually means something?


Percentage blocking is actually better for you than chance blocking, since chance blocking is unreliable. In terms of utility, chance blocking may be better, since as Nek pointed out, it can, every once in a while, save your hide.

Re: Kiryan, it should not be possible to have 80% MR. That's obscenely high, and ensures that even a tiny amount of healing would go really far (i.e. via potion or something). Unless, of course, you want to apply MR to healing as well, which is just goofy.

MR is still a novelty/style thing at this moment. I don't think they intended MR to supplant saves as a superior thing.


Um so you think it would be crazy unbalancing to have a 400 hp mage with 80% mr?

but since you pose the question which would you rather have 700 hps and

all prots great saves and -150 ac

or

80% MR no saves, no prots, and +100 ac?
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
rer
Sojourner
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:19 pm

Postby rer » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:16 pm

Personally, I think we're all taking this too far. I agree with !!x - adding more than 10-15% MR for a PC is just rediculously unbalancing. Because, Kiryan, people will find a way to get all prots, 80% MR, and at least 0 AC.
Maedor
Sojourner
Posts: 390
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Maedor » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:35 pm

rer wrote:Personally, I think we're all taking this too far. I agree with !!x - adding more than 10-15% MR for a PC is just rediculously unbalancing. Because, Kiryan, people will find a way to get all prots, 80% MR, and at least 0 AC.


They won't find a way to get those stats if the areas staff don't want them to. Now, if you could get 80% MR with 4 items..yea it'd be possible to get nice saves and prots. But what if you needed 10-15items to get MR that high? Your ability to maintain other stats and acheive that level of MR would become impossible.

I'd personally rather have max ac/saves/and 700hp than 400hp !ac !prots and high MR. Mob melee owns casters at least as often as spells imo.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Re: Magic Resistance too low?

Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:30 am

kiryan wrote:
moritheil wrote:
Dalar wrote:With the change to MR (percentage blocked instead of percentage to block fully), MR seems rather useless. Could the current items with MR be increased so MR actually means something?


Percentage blocking is actually better for you than chance blocking, since chance blocking is unreliable. In terms of utility, chance blocking may be better, since as Nek pointed out, it can, every once in a while, save your hide.

Re: Kiryan, it should not be possible to have 80% MR. That's obscenely high, and ensures that even a tiny amount of healing would go really far (i.e. via potion or something). Unless, of course, you want to apply MR to healing as well, which is just goofy.

MR is still a novelty/style thing at this moment. I don't think they intended MR to supplant saves as a superior thing.


Um so you think it would be crazy unbalancing to have a 400 hp mage with 80% mr?

but since you pose the question which would you rather have 700 hps and

all prots great saves and -150 ac

or

80% MR no saves, no prots, and +100 ac?


That depends on how great the saves are, and whether or not you're fighting something with multiple possible save effects.

Let me give you an example. It used to be that if you could get your saves up to -50 or so, some spells would give you a message from your save and you would take a very small amount of damage (say, 12 dam from cyclone). It's my understanding that it doesn't actually work like that any more, and that you only get one save for half damage. In that case anyone can tell you that taking 20% damage is a much much better situation than taking 50% damage (and saves don't always kick in).

You are right in pointing out that this is a mage class, and therefore not something that can prot/heal itself. Still, you must agree that MR applying to everything (spells, spell like abilities, supernatural effects like dragon breath) makes it vastly more useful than a similar number of saves.

Now, assuming similar AC and being a class that can heal yourself (and having heal unaffected by MR), hell yes, give me a 400 hp char with 80MR.

Now, taking your example, "80% MR no saves, no prots, and +100 ac?" No, obviously this is going a bit too far for MR on a mage, were such a thing even possible. Still, assuming the gear wasn't something where every last item in a set had to be worn to get any of it to work at all, one can always swap out items here and there and get, say, -50ac, 600 hps, some prots and maybe 50MR, and that combination would be very powerful. Therefore, asking me to choose between two handpicked examples is misleading, as there is probably an optimum in between the two extremes of no MR and all MR.

Let me reiterate that, as I understand it, the point of MR for PCs was originally to make your character look cool, and occasionally get saved from taking damage. It was a perk of having so much save gear that you could afford to swap some out. In no way was it intended to replace saves.

Unless you're fighting beholders or something with serious status effects that require saves, MR is vastly superior to saves. Therefore MR would supplant saves if you enabled an entire range of MR from 0 to 80%.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'

Return to “T2 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest