Newbie Mages & Dying

[Selias]

I just rolled a necromancer not too long ago, and I remembered a problem I had as a newbie mage here.

When I die I don't mind so much losing my eq, because at that level it's crap anyway, and as a mage eq isn't that important, except for one thing

My spellbook! Yes, I know we have storage caches where I can hold extra spellbooks, but a lot of new players don't know that. It can be very frustrating losing your book as a new player and having to figure out how to get another one and scribe your spells. It is especially painful if you have no money to buy another book!

As an idea how 'bout for first circle spells once you scribe the spells you can have access to them w/o a spellbook? It's not unbalancing, because me not having to own a spellbook to cast magic missile isn't going to hurt anyone, but for those new players who are broke, just died, can't CR, and need their spells back it gives them a chance to slay a few lowbie mobs to gather enough coin for a new book and be able to re-scribe their spells.

peace in the middle east!

[Thilindel]

Hell...I'm all for the uber-radical idea of allowing mages to QUEST their freaking spells to become cleric-type in that they are perm and you don't need a book. It'd rock if you could practice at the guildmaster and for 10x the normal price of learning a spell, it'd be put with '*' or basically like a quest spell where you need no book. This way, your friends can save you bling by helping you scribe, but if you were a serious mage that has cleric envy, having your guildmaster brand the spells into your forehead is the way to go!

Spellbooks are pretty stupid if ya ask me. Doing a zone just to get a larger book ..nuts! When you zone, you can wear eq you win. Books just are w/o merit. Ever since I started mudding (I didn't play AD&D and don't know much at all as to why clerical pcs don't need books, yet there are clerical scrolls out there) I couldn't understand why mages need books but not clerics.

[Lilira]

Hell...I'm all for the uber-radical idea of allowing mages to QUEST their freaking spells to become cleric-type in that they are perm and you don't need a book.

Thil,, all my high level quest spells are branded into my thick skull.. just an FYI.

Ever since I started mudding (I didn't play AD&D and don't know much at all as to why clerical pcs don't need books, yet there are clerical scrolls out there) I couldn't understand why mages need books but not clerics.

Umm. Clerics get their spells granted by their gods at an as needed basis. Basically its "Oh Great (insert FR god name here) I'm in a heap of trouble and could really use a flamestrike right about now!!!" "Oh good grief, Vigis has done it again and is at 57 of 1020 hps.. could I get your power to heal him now so he can keep my wimpy butt from getting smited by this huge guardian dragon?" Then the sitting down to pray = THANKS!!!!!

The more you ask for, the longer it takes to say thanks. *grin*

Yes this is half in jest. But it is the basic reason why clerics don't need spellbooks. The spellbook thing is what sets a mage apart from a cleric. Its one of the weak points. If they didn't have to carry spellbooks, they'd just be like another cleric class and imbalanced at that. I do like the idea of first circle spells not being required to be scribed. As a 46th level mage, me standing there with my little magic missiles vs. a dragon to CR... Well I don't see it happening, so I have my backups. Having mage flame commited to memory so I can see to find my corpse.. now that's handy.

Yeah, it stinks having to scribe, and scribe, and scribe... Its a time sink. But its also one of the two downfalls to playing a mage (the other being really crappy base hps *snicker*) vs. all the power they have in the game.

What I would love to see... Clerics having to actually stick to the alignment they roll as. If you start as a good cleric, stay that way. If you start as an evil cleric, Taa-daa. Have the option to roll any align, then stick to it. Frankly if I were playing a cleric of a good god and I went evil, could I really expect that god to keep granting me powers? Yeah, its an RP thing I realize this, so I don't really expect to see it implemented, but druids loose their nature spells if they bounce off neutral. I understand that holy/unholy word is alignment dependent, but so far that's pretty much the only spell I know of that's alignment restricted for clerics.

But I've headed off topic, so I'm done for now. *grin*

[Thilindel]

I said clerical, not cleric only. Shammy is pretty similar to elementalist, save they have to be big, fat, stupid, and really ugly. Pluto should be happy of the necro's line of work. Mars should be the one granting invokers power, cuz all they use it for is blowin stuff up. And of course, elementalist are powered by a little known fact: The Great Buttgod..cuz ele's are full of crap :P What I meant by quest is just like on smoke plane and hecuva for example, ya give money, ya get yer pipe. You give bling to da blingman, being guildmaster, and you can quit having to carry x spell in a spellbook cuz it's put to quest status. I just think it's stupid to have books in inventory in the first place. I don't see the need for the inconvenience. More from lack of knowing, in true D&D, what 'diety' gives lich/demilich etc. the power to not have hoard spellbooks? Lastly, a certain druid has shown ENDLESSLY that druids, yet another clerical, can be powerful indeed. They gotz no books either. Limited health buffer, unlimited pets, recall, area draggy spells, all prots, good, clean family of bad guys killer!

DOH! (P.S.) Bards are mages, pathetic ones, but nonetheless don't have to carry a spellbook. For a 'jack-of-all-trades' that's doing something. Mastering the ability to cast without dragging around that spellbook. They HAVE mastered something the true class mages haven't.

[Thilindel]

*laugh* and rereading Lil's post, I realize I got off topic too! Doh! Sorry, I definitely agree that lowbie spells just just be innate. Just kept that way into 10th circle if you paid the guildmaster *halo whistle smirk* :P

[Lilira]

My last word on this I promise!!

If you want casters with innate magic... bring sorcs back and model them after D&D3.5. *nod me* But.. once again I'm hijacking the topic. If anyone wants to discuss this idea further, send me a pmessage and we can see if we think the idea merits a new thread under IDEAS. *giggle*

Lil

[Birile]

DOH! (P.S.) Bards are mages, pathetic ones, but nonetheless don't have to carry a spellbook. For a 'jack-of-all-trades' that's doing something. Mastering the ability to cast without dragging around that spellbook. They HAVE mastered something the true class mages haven't.

Yes... let's... upgrade... mages so their spells are just like bard/battlechanter spells. Envy my 2 displacements every ~18 minutes!

[/end sarcasm]

:D

[Botef]

What your thinking of would be a sorcerer in D&D I believe, where your granted spells each day, but lack the ability to memorize them at will.

I dont think being able to mem lvl one spells without a spellbook is the best solution to this. DI/DM and Invis are usually the most important spells I want to mem after death when I CR, not having to use a spellbook to do it would rock...Especially when you dont have a backup set and die on ship and need to invis to get back on...

I think a better solution would be to make it so a spellbook with your spells to level loads in your inventory when you die, similar to how you always get newbie eq back at lvl 1 on death. However, I don't like this solution any better because it teachs new players over the course of the first 20 levels that losing your spellbook is ok...New players really do need to learn the importance of back up books early on, as it only gets more expensive later....

[Selias]

On the topic of DM/DI/Invis, can't you buy those spells from the mage that wanders around WD? IIRC they are pretty cheap and last quite a while. DM/DI are important spells to CR with, but the only one that will really be a boon to newbies doing a CR is invis. I just logged on and checked - Invis is a 2nd circle spell for most mage classes. Even Illusionist gets it in 2nd circle, so invis wouldn't be included in the spells that you don't need a book for.

I don't like the idea of automatically loading with a spellbook. I wouldn't like having a spellbook load on myself whenever I die. Would just bother me when I go to loot my corpse and get my reall spellbooks back.

Maybe a list of spellls to be permanently rememberd would be a better idea:

Magic missile/earth darts/shadow bolt
chill touch/burning hands (Invoker ONLY)
DI
DM
Mage Flame

I feel that for new players mage flame and magic missile would be the most important (chill/BH for Invokers). This way newbie mages could find their corpse in the dark, or at least have a chance to kill some slaves/merchants to get a few silver to buy a new book.

As of right now my newbie necromancer is sitting in scarsdale inn w/o a spellbook or quill. I have no cash on the char (not transferring anything over), and really no way of getting any cash short of being a scavenger. I know that I'm an experienced player and should have backups, blah blah blah, but the newbie doesn't know that. Maybe have it so that you can ask your guildmaster for help, and he'll give you a spellbook with specific low level spells in it with no extra pages! That way newbies can get a hand in building back up, but it wouldn't be abusable.

peace in the middle east!

[Nebomosel]

Um guys... yes, I agree that DI/Invis are important for a lot of CRs, especially low level CRs, I have to say you keep forgetting *the* most important needed spell for any CR. Mage Flame. At least half a lowbie's CRs are gonna be after sunset. How do we expect them to find their corpse in the dark?

Neb

[Thilindel]

Yes... let's... upgrade... mages so their spells are just like bard/battlechanter spells. Envy my 2 displacements every ~18 minutes!

[/end sarcasm]

:D

That's not the point. The point is bards cast mage spells w/o a book. All I'm saying I'd like to see is to make mages like clerical class in that you can chose what spell you want w/o a book.

Just sticking to logic, why do bards (Not saying they're overpowered) not have books?

And to stay on the topic, last year or 2 ago, Kossuth told me to post my idea: Until like lvl 11 I proposed that ALL mage classes get unlimited casting due to being so pathetic in power. Sub level 6, magic missile doesn't even land or at least it used to not. Somehow...having 17-19 hps and having one lvl 1 spell, which misses, is pretty rough way to be welcomed to toril :P

[Botef]

Um guys... yes, I agree that DI/Invis are important for a lot of CRs, especially low level CRs, I have to say you keep forgetting *the* most important needed spell for any CR. Mage Flame. At least half a lowbie's CRs are gonna be after sunset. How do we expect them to find their corpse in the dark?

Neb

Well I play drow, so Ive cast mage flame all of 5 times.

[Botef]

Here's an even better idea.

Have a spellbook pile in the recall room like the newbie help book that has every first circle spell in it. Would be like the SPOB book you get, but only first circle spells.

[Thilindel]

the other thing I just thought about to back up that mages could possibly quest all spells to not have to carry a damned book is the fact that rangers did used to have a book. Luckily they changed that. Bards don't. Abolish all books !

[Eilistraee]

We aren't going to abolish spellbooks. They can be created from scratch via minor creation, they cost a minimal amount of money and scribing your first circle spells is free, no matter the level.

[Nurpy Fuzzyfeet]

Yes... let's... upgrade... mages so their spells are just like bard/battlechanter spells. Envy my 2 displacements every ~18 minutes!

[/end sarcasm]

:D

That's not the point. The point is bards cast mage spells w/o a book. All I'm saying I'd like to see is to make mages like clerical class in that you can chose what spell you want w/o a book.

Just sticking to logic, why do bards (Not saying they're overpowered) not have books?

And to stay on the topic, last year or 2 ago, Kossuth told me to post my idea: Until like lvl 11 I proposed that ALL mage classes get unlimited casting due to being so pathetic in power. Sub level 6, magic missile doesn't even land or at least it used to not. Somehow...having 17-19 hps and having one lvl 1 spell, which misses, is pretty rough way to be welcomed to toril :P

Agree. Toril needs a warning for anyone creating a mage character. It is excessively hard to get started out as one, even with experience. you have 17-20hps, one spell that doesn't work, and a crappy wooden dagger. It gives a distorted image of how Toril works to new players when they atart out with a mage. Give them a warning.

Or change the way noob mages work. I would say start a level one mage out with 5 1st circle spells, and have magic missile pump out atleast 2 or 3 missiles. Wouldn't be overpowering, but it's damn sure needed.

[Selias]

Thanks elistraee! Maybe you should update the Minor Creation help file to include that you can make spellbooks and quills. However this doesn't fix the problem that when you spawn w/o a book you can't scribe/mem minor creation =)