On Zone Design

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
teflor the ranger
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On Zone Design

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:42 am

I am starting this thread in hopes of gaining player insight into the design and intention of present/future zones.

1) How long should a zone take to complete?

2) How should zone rewards (equipment, etc.) be distributed timewise into the completion of a zone?

3) What types of challenges are valid in a zone?


Thoughts on Question #1:

Having a zone last more than four hours on average is ridiculous, tasteless, and just plain maddening. This is the only game where I have to play something else just to be entertained. I like using the restroom without having to hold it for twenty minutes while the group makes it to the next safe room or grid. I like being able to EAT LUNCH without jamming it into my mouth between typing stuff. One zone that takes six to eight hours would have been cute or neat, but OMFG no.

Thoughts on Question #2:

I would prefer if equipment was acquired throughout the zone. The mud is not stable. It crashes on a fairly regular basis and current policy prohibits reimbursement. This means, that if you have spent six hours at the keys, ignoring your kids, the dog wetting the carpet, holding your bodily functions while getting curiously hungry, that you get NOTHING.

Thanks.

Thoughts on Question #3:

What's with the latest elf-only crypt zone thing? This isn't a challenge. It's a dull-thump-your-head-against-the-keys over and over and over again until you've figured it out, maybe challenge. I put up with enough of this driving to and from work each morning.


What are your thoughts? I hope mine will be helpful to future area designs, and if they seem too harsh or critical, I am only presenting honesty.
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:07 pm

#4: What other ways are there to present challenge besides making zones longer and stuff more mobs into each room?

_____

1. There should be a wide variety of high level, challenging zones in the game. You should be able to pick off a few good items in an hour or two, or get the boys and girls together for an 8-hour romp.

2. Rewards should be distributed throughout, especially with the MUD's zero-tolerance policy toward zone resets and equipment reimbursements. An eight hour zone where all the equipment is at the end? I've been to Vegas and I've played Toril, and betting against the crash is not a safe gamble.

3. I don't play, can't answer that one.
4. Ditto.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Lathander
Staff Member - Areas
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Postby Lathander » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:05 pm

Some interesting questions so here are just some personal opinions. I’ve been a player here for ten years now. I’ve seen lots of zones, lots of spanks, and lots of changes over that time. Here are some of my thoughts.

1. How long should a zone be?

Depends on what the area maker is going for. Is it a quick smite on the way zone to add to a group’s loot or is it meant to be an epic zone. Long zones can be fantastic. Some of my best memories are of those ten to fifteen hour zones like the first beta test of Jot Invasion. Hell, we had Tiamat runs that took twenty hours. I’ve seen Cave City done in an hour and a half and I’ve seen Cave City spanks that took many hours to fix.

Some folks actually like heavy challenges and the immersion that challenging and lengthy zones create. Hell, we used to all kid each other that we should keep urinal bottles by the computer back in the day.

2. Eq distribution

Once again, it depends on what the area writer is going for. Do you want something that folks just can go to real fast or do you want to create more of a challenge. Of course, anything that is easier to get, should have lesser stats. The trouble with lots of eq available in stages is it creates more eq. Jot is a fantastic zone that I love, but it does tend to have a lot of lower and middle high lvl eq which was changed a bit in the last eq changes. So part of the situation isn’t just having eq in stages, but trying to limit eq saturation and inflation.

3. Challenges in zones

I’m consistent, so I’ll go with it depends on what the area writer is going for. Is it a straight up spank the mobs until you get to the end zone? Is it something truly new like SPOB? Is it a zone based on riddles? Is it a zone with lots of rares which really impact how the zone flows? Is it a zone meant to be done in a particular way using rogue stealth and other transportation? Variety is the spice of life; it is what makes the zones out there different from each other. Some zones are going to be exciting for their randomness while others will require true eliteness and commitment to complete.

4. Other challenges

There are some other challenges out there. The new elf zone is a fantastic example of some of the newer features which can be used. There are a lot of environmental challenges which can be added and I’m sure in the future there will always be newer ideas which will add new struggles.

I’ve always believed that players will decide if a zone is correctly balanced by their doing the zone. The risk and reward relationship will decide if the more casual gamer does a zone, but the more dedicated gamers will always do a zone as long as the incentive is there.

Lath
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:27 pm

I don't point fingers at any admin/coder. I do think it's really poor in taste for the policy of the mud to ignore the fact that numerous people slaved and only have lost time, xp, and potions, etc, rather than gained anything. I 10000% agree with Tef. There's no being mad at anybody. But there is being fully disappointed in the policy that the crash didn't deal with you, so you are out of luck. Eilistraee is the first god I've seen to help in Izans where you are put back to the room if close and it crashed. I haven't done magma, for reasons such as effort vs. crash. I assume last mob shouts for grid to help. Maybe gods should impliment a command that destroys all mobs in a zone but the leader. This would enable the magma group to resume without bother. Or destroy all most in all rooms in the zone besides occupied room..etc. I don't want to sound like an ass, but really, with the policy as it stands - when you log in you should see a disclaimer: Play at your own risk, reimbursements for bad luck are virtually nonexistant. Yes, spoken out of frustration, but what else can we do as players? Retrying a zone only to have crash happen yet again (fully ignoring all that xp lost) is not an option.
Cyric
FORGER AREAS
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Location: Bone Castle, City of Strife

Postby Cyric » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:12 pm

Since I'm the main zone design wank, I guess I'll weigh in on this topic.

First of all, my goal is to make every zone (by every maker) different. Not every zone should be long, not every one should be short, not every one should have a ton of equipment and so forth. If you read my entries in the news over the past years you should hopefully get a feel for this by checking which zones came in when. Part of it is beyond my control, though. Person X will say "I have this great idea for this riddle zone intended for 45+ level players and will take 4 hours to complete", but then it doesn't get written for 5 years. So it's impossible for me to plan ahead. Stuff that's in the pipeline is in the pipeline and will be done when it's done.

One topic that some of you have hit on is how much equipment should come out of how much time commitment? I too hated doing looooong zones, so I typically only write short zones now...how much "good" eq should come out of a 2 hour zone, though? And if it isn't much, who will bother doing it? The Zaor/Elf zone is a good example. It started out as a "dude, this zone is impossible, nobody will EVER be able to complete it!!!" zone, and now it's a 2-hour zone max. Should I place enough equipment for the "impossible" version of it (which it was for the first month after it came out), or for the shorter version of it?

As always there's no right answer...good stuff is in the works, and you'll hopefully get enough variety to keep you happy!
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:22 pm

My answer is... those of us who spent all that time figuring out Zaor should get special Tshirts!

Maybe ones that read "I did it because the dragon told me to, and by the time I did it, I was glad to do so."
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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