Jot Invasion

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Gormal
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Jot Invasion

Postby Gormal » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:08 am

*Sigh* What was the point of nerfing the old equipment? Some of us worked hard to get it pre-fold when it was a difficult zone. The theme of "nerf the old eq and make them get new and better stuff" is getting more than a little out of hand on this MUD.

Make all invasion eq inherit the new stats... I mean it hasn't loaded in forever anyway and you're screwing quests that require those items. Stop nerfing old eq and making better come in the game.

The entire reason ameys were nerfed for instance was because gods thought that people shouldn't have that much hp... now we've got even better rings in game... someone seriously needs to come up with a clue, a rulebook, or something.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:38 pm

Would be cool if area gods actually played the game they tinkered with. I think that's asking alot though.

Also, I still don't get how 2 groups can't handle jot invasion. You can still split it up with camps, the grid, the palace etc.
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Postby Lilira » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:40 pm

Dalar wrote:Would be cool if area gods actually played the game they tinkered with. I think that's asking alot though.

Also, I still don't get how 2 groups can't handle jot invasion. You can still split it up with camps, the grid, the palace etc.


And when was the last time you really played again???
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:46 pm

As they say in the movies 'He's baaaack!' I believe we did jot invasion this early morning! Fun stuffs. What's funny is that for a zone that's being invaded (like ant farm), you'd think mob types would stick amongst themselves, but no, we got the --- ----- frost giants that rescue fires! :P I wanna see it be a battle royal where mobs switch on themselves. Would help in theme. After a giant dies, there's a chance the other style giant would switch since the number of opponents changes.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:14 pm

Lilira wrote:
Dalar wrote:Would be cool if area gods actually played the game they tinkered with. I think that's asking alot though.

Also, I still don't get how 2 groups can't handle jot invasion. You can still split it up with camps, the grid, the palace etc.


And when was the last time you really played again???


Not to stick up for Dartan, cuz well.. everyone knows how I feel about him, but considering this place never really changes and playing 2 years ago is pretty much how it was 10 mins ago, wtf cares when someone played last?

Bug Fixes != Gameplay Development
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Postby Gormal » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:12 pm

Dartan has done the new jot invasion twice, you haven't done it at all. I'd say he's got more right than most to comment.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:01 pm

Lilira wrote:
Dalar wrote:Would be cool if area gods actually played the game they tinkered with. I think that's asking alot though.

Also, I still don't get how 2 groups can't handle jot invasion. You can still split it up with camps, the grid, the palace etc.


And when was the last time you really played again???

Does it matter? I still know as much as I did 2 years ago.
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Postby Vaprak » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:03 pm

Dalar wrote:Would be cool if area gods actually played the game they tinkered with. I think that's asking alot though.

Also, I still don't get how 2 groups can't handle jot invasion. You can still split it up with camps, the grid, the palace etc.


If everything with the recent change to Jot invasion was implemented how I think it was (I've been away for a while), then it was my original concept to make the zone more interesting and to make it so people didn't just fold past the grid to get to the loot. And I was actually playing and doing Jot invasion when I thought of this particular zone change.

That being said, the way I planned it would also make it fairly easy for two groups to pkill the other and make the zone very difficult for one another by sabotaging, and that is the reason why it was changed back to regular zone rules of 1 group.
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Postby Cyric » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:04 am

Ya'll are funny. We either never change anything or change everything. We (the areas gods) do indeed play (well, most of us I should say), the reason for only 1 group is exactly what Vaprak said (and it's a pity it has to be spelled out for you...apparently obtuse hints in the news and BBS don't work), none of the quests have been screwed up, and the new invasion is more fun. Ya'll are funny.

As I've said a zillion times before, thanks to the silent majority that's happy with the changes we implement...we feel your love and it far overshadows the vocal minority.

Remember, "We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams". Oh, and Voulez-vous entrer le Wonkatania? See? Now I'm funny too...wow, channeling Wonka and Thorogood at the same time!
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Postby Gormal » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:25 am

You're even funnier Roy, don't pretend that any of the forgers are actively morting, (logging in occasionally and following someone to a zone doesn't count). Why don't you post up your mortals and prove me wrong.

As far as quests go, what about the fiery helm of power reward that you get for questing Surtur... now there's no point. You quest a surtur for a worse reward? Good call though.

Rather than try to turn us into whiners and the vocal minority, why not take a step back and try to imagine a world where the people who spend far too much of their lives playing the game actually know a fair amount about how it works.

Cheers!
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:23 am

Gormal, you are using selective arguments to try to plead your case. You ALWAYS got a worse result from questing a surtur into a helm of power; unless you are of the opinion that detect evil and detect good and 3 ac are superior to an extra spell save. It's marginal, but then again you're conveniently omitting the fact that you receive many more items as a result of that quest. And yes, I'm aware you have to do a lot more as well.

The old equipment was frequently obtained through very small groups, and since it was done in such a fashion that they didn't have to overcome a lot of the challenges presented, the older gear wasn't valued as much. Now, you have to overcome more of the challenges within the zone, and would you look at that, you get better stats on the equipment.

We will not make all existing invasion equipment inherit the new stats. The quests using any of that old equipment still function in exactly the same fashion.

As people who not only play the game, but are forced to administer the rules of it, we revoked the two group rule in Jot because some rules lawyer somewhere would determine that it would NOT be pkill to trigger one of the traps and sabotage one of the other groups.

And finally, no staff member in their right mind is about to post a list of the mortals they play. Those who know of staff member's mortals are well advised to keep their knowledge to themselves as well.

I may have left something out, but there's no point saying anything more. Thank you for your concern and interest.
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Postby Vigis » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:27 am

Okay, I admit it, I am Sheverash. . .errr nevermind I meant I have a rash... (Bastard Kifle :p )
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Postby Gormal » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:06 am

The helm of power was on par with surtur, it wasn't better or worse. Now you gotta drop 2hitroll as well.

We are still using the same <edit> rogue/fold tactics in the new jot invasion. We're forced to clear more mobs now, that's pretty much it. I love the new changes to the zone don't get me wrong (except for the folding). Its the way that the equipment was changed that I disagree with.

The recurring theme of making our older equipment that we worked hard for sub-uber is getting out of hand. If you wanna complain about people twinking zones in small groups then why not try implementing some of the fixes suggested on the boards before it gets too out of hand.
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Postby Corth » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:05 am

Nobody ever believes me when I tell them I'm Shevarash. Yeah rl stuff keeping me from coding.. i.e. I have a life and a job.. cut me a break. And now this poseur pretends to be me. Well I don't feel like coding today so piss off!

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Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:03 pm

What you didn't know (haha foolish mortals) is that I'm really Gargauth. No, wait, I'm Kiaransalee. And you've all been very naughty, and I'm going to have a word with some of you in-game before I nerf everything you're wearing.
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Postby Vandic » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:35 pm

Ragorn wrote:What you didn't know (haha foolish mortals) is that I'm really Gargauth. No, wait, I'm Kiaransalee. And you've all been very naughty, and I'm going to have a word with some of you in-game before I nerf everything you're wearing.


You can't be Kia.

I'm Kia.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:10 am

I did spend several hours during invasion the other night. I must say it was one of the most fun I've had in a zone in a LONG time. I think it's a big thrill and loved it :)
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Re: Jot Invasion

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:27 am

Gormal wrote:*Sigh* What was the point of nerfing the old equipment?


Excellent question.
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:09 am

Just to clear up confusion, the stats of the old items haven't been touched for over a year since the mud wide eq stat changes.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:15 pm

Thilindel wrote:I did spend several hours during invasion the other night. I must say it was one of the most fun I've had in a zone in a LONG time. I think it's a big thrill and loved it :)


What's so fun about it? It's the same crap, just have to kill everything now.
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Postby Verarb » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:43 pm

What was the point of the eq wide restatting anayway.
As I remember it quite a few of you players now complaining about the the nerfing were actually clamoring for the eq changes (didnt turn out quite like you wanted huh?).
But anyway it's kinda funny, EQ downgraded because it was deemed unbalanced but lookit now some of the biggest items that got downgraded have better alternatives atm.

Eldritch was deemed godly with it 75hps and -9str. - bah like 3-4 other current rings are better than it EVER was.

jot invasion stuff, hahah you guys put stuff there better than there Ever was.
etc
etc. so what was the point?.

i propose you upgrade all my !load stuff. that'll fix everything.
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Postby Corth » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:38 pm

Well the EQ re-stating was a good idea that was executed horribly. The purpose was to create a relationship between the quality of equipment and the difficulty in obtaining it. Simple enough, right? Well it was bungled from day one, and nobody has made any further attempts to get it right.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:39 pm

It was fun for me cuz I never stay up late hehe! Was a good group we went with too. Well, except for Maxler! *noog*
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:56 pm

When Dugmaren told me that Muspelheim invasion bracers (marble defense) were the best in game at ac 4 27 hp -9 str, I asked him if he knew what the fuck a silver band was. Knowing that, are any of you surprised how the changes came out?

Look at Hulburg, BC for the longest time, Izan etc. Anything new is pretty much messed up. Why? Because the gods just don't know what's what. And I believe IC2 and magma are huge failures. I'm looking forward to a Tiamat thread next year when it's implemented.

And you want to know why the minority complains Cyric? Because the majority don't see many zones past the tier 2 or however Dugmaren describes it. That's it, I'm starting a poll.
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:46 pm

What the eq restating was meant to do was bring risk vs reward into play and have the equipment given show that. The mentioning of lower hps, higher hit/dam, ect shouldn't even have been said. My guess is that those were the things seen as being out of whack the most and it was figured that they would change in the ways predicted.
Obviously that didn't happen quite the way that was expected.
As the equipment calculator got used more and more, ways were found to get the most points for a fight that really wasn't all that hard and we all know what that led to.

The deal with jot was that it was figured up as skipping the grids and just doing the fights as needed to get the eq, totally bypassing what could be one of the more challenging parts of the zone. The changes that went in now make you do the grids so the equipment given now can be worth more then the previous equipment as there are is now more risk then before.

Also, much of the littler stuff that was only gotten because it was there then handed out to newbies that have no idea what went into getting it has been removed from the zone during invasion freeing up points for the invasion specific equipment.


Now, as for not playing much…
I play when I can. I hold down a full time job normally getting around 45 hours a week. I come home and check the bbs and god boards to see what needs attention. That takes a good half hour to an hour depending on how much you people feel like posting. After that I fix odd little things which you guys never see yet enjoy the benefits of almost daily. I also have dinner and odd things around my house to do that also eat up various amounts of time. So I get to play maybe 10 hours a week, in off prime hours of course, so I’m sorry if I don’t know the mud the way I used to before becoming a staff member but I think the tradeoffs of what I can do for the players that enjoy my work far outweighs the loss of a little bit of the knowledge I have of the game.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:55 pm

It was nice that twilight got an upgrade to 31 average damage per swing up 6 points (or roughly 25%). Someone listened about 2handers needing an upgrade, although most damage is in procs so more of a token than anything else.

The zone is still too easy especially considering the new items that were added (1 of which rocks). To get that many items I think you need to have the zone take a good 4 hours. In its present form you could probably do it in 2.5 with a good group after people get comfortable.

the eq restatting was as corth said a good idea. It replaced a system that had predefined maximums and a very subjective approach to eq value.

The biggest problem imo is that instead of escalating eq (which is what happens when you make bigger and badder zones every year) they effectively reduced stats on all eq and left the top end eq at the previous top end. However things were missed and some of the attributes of eq were grossly undervalued (AC) resulting in an opinion of "value" from an areas point of view that is very different from the players point of view.

Good things about the eq re-statting, 3 dam and 2/2 items became common. some really hard to get items got a deserved boost and reign over lesser eq.

Bad things about the eq re-statting, it created more junk eq. mid tier eq lost the most points and therefore the most stats. zones and quests that had lots of eq and few points ended up having a bunch of junk eq... destroyed 8+ years worth of "knowledge" of eq stats.. old timers come back and have no idea what stats are... we all had to rememorize shit we had already memorized.
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:05 pm

I agree the zone was too easy. I asked the first group through (which I believe you were a part of kiryan) what they thought and they confirmed that. Some of the things in the zone never happened that would have made it a bit harder. Other things were overlooked in the limited amount of testing I could do and have hopefully been fixed and will be in soonish.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:26 pm

Too bad you didn't ask the rogue what he thought. Everything new added to the zone just made it longer. The difficulty is still the same.
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Postby amolol » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:08 pm

you guys are perty whiners. the god provide a FREE look at the word ------->FREE<------ gaming atmosphere that is family friendly reaches all corners of the earth and in general is a good place to make friends and gather usefull information. and you bitch at them because a few of you elites that have the privalege of being picked for these high end zones invasiones and are able to collect enough of the pieces to do the quests bitch moan and complain every time the admin here try to make it fair to those who are less gifted. your not the onlyones who get screwed by this btw, the rest of us hafto deal with it too, and it takes us much longer to get the equipment needed to do things. you keep complaining about the high end gear being nerfed and changed and slaughterd. what about the mid level and lower level gear that got it even worse. think about the little guy for a second, not your precious bag of shiny new toys.
i dont know what your problem is, but i bet its hard to pronounce

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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:20 pm

amolol wrote:you guys are perty whiners. the god provide a FREE look at the word ------->FREE<------ gaming atmosphere that is family friendly reaches all corners of the earth and in general is a good place to make friends and gather usefull information. and you bitch at them because a few of you elites that have the privalege of being picked for these high end zones invasiones and are able to collect enough of the pieces to do the quests bitch moan and complain every time the admin here try to make it fair to those who are less gifted. your not the onlyones who get screwed by this btw, the rest of us hafto deal with it too, and it takes us much longer to get the equipment needed to do things. you keep complaining about the high end gear being nerfed and changed and slaughterd. what about the mid level and lower level gear that got it even worse. think about the little guy for a second, not your precious bag of shiny new toys.


Not only is your post in the worst English, it carries no meaning.
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Postby amolol » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:06 am

its simple dalar, while i agree with the first part the last part of the post is very simple. think about someone else for a change
i dont know what your problem is, but i bet its hard to pronounce



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Postby Sarell » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:33 am

Amolol, the high end players are not picked, they work hard, play a lot and play the best in terms of power.

Dalar is spot on, new invasion is not harder, it is longer. Picking off the pile of giants on the grid once you make a small cutin, which isn't very hard at all, is a very easy, but long process. It is a problem, because in a zone where you have a huge fight at the end, it means the group becomes distracted and bored doing the arduous task of clearing, aka, current magma, air (mind you air has more element of risk / danger than jot due to its 3D smaller grid layout).

I'm not really sure why jot invasion needed changes, it is the best zone ever, perhaps other zones needed changes to be brought into line with it, and it returned to its former glory. Including removing the tree, was cool when one person could check invasion, it meant there was a race for it, not just first to engage tree wins / gets to check and smite. Fold / smoke plane do make a difference I guess. I think loading a hidden key on one grid giant would of sufficed. There are heaps of thread where we supplied lots of feedback on this.

Gear changes. Balance? Too many caster hitpoints? Energy ring was changed from 50hitpoints to 50 mana, this fits neither theme. Gear changes failed in many instances due to stopping mid implementation and not being able to fathon how good we were at twinking with a strictly numerical measure. TTF ring is far easier to get than eldritch or energy. The 'standard' set was just changed around a bit.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:57 pm

amolol wrote:its simple dalar, while i agree with the first part the last part of the post is very simple. think about someone else for a change

How about you read the past posts and realize yours is not only misinformed, it's horrible English. All the points you said in your post were addressed by the very same people who are complaining abou tthis one. Even if you're a dwarven warrior now, you still think like a ranger.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:19 am

Vigis wrote:Okay, I admit it, I am Sheverash. . .errr nevermind I meant I have a rash... (Bastard Kifle :p )


Blame Dartan's mom...
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Postby Gormal » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:50 pm

Marthammor wrote:The deal with jot was that it was figured up as skipping the grids and just doing the fights as needed to get the eq, totally bypassing what could be one of the more challenging parts of the zone. The changes that went in now make you do the grids so the equipment given now can be worth more then the previous equipment as there are is now more risk then before.



When I got my jot invasion eq, there was no such thing as folding across the grids and skipping stuff. The deal with jot had nothing to do with folding, the eq calc'r was applied to jot invasion and it didn't merit enough points for the eq it had supposedly. At the time, eq was downgraded across the board, why the need to redo the zone with all new equipment and make out tier 1 items into tier 2? I'm all for the adding of the new stuff and making things harder... I just think old twilights, surturs, and glammad crowns should inherit the same stats as the new stuff.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:59 pm

So why did people get to keep their old awesome Magma/IC2 eq stats when they was changed dramatically with dragon changes? TTF/Muspelheim invasion/other stuff I can't remember too.
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Postby Cyric » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:08 am

Ya know, a few posts in this thread have been bothering me for a while now, and after talking with a friend I finally figured out what's going on. When I started playing this game 10 years ago, we had a staff that was rude, inconsiderate, demeaning, and extraordinarily disrespectful of the player base. As a result, the player base was afraid to step out of line, and pretty much kept to the straight and narrow. We now have a staff that is respectful of its players, and as a result, we have a number of players that are disrespectful of the staff. Seems strange but that's the size of it...the more friendly and accomodating we become, the more some individuals have to push the envelope.

As someone posted above, this is a free game, and we all volunteer to keep it running for your enjoyment. There is no need to make derogatory comments about the staff, how much they play, whether they're in touch, etc. I completely am all-for free speech, and I understand that it's the nature of an open forum to have just as many posts asking for changes as there are complaining about changes, but it can certainly be kept on a civilized level as it is the vast majority of the time.

This is unacceptable, and will no longer be tolerated. This thread is locked, as will others with similar attitudes in the future. I will not allow bad apples to spoil the whole damn bunch (a little GnR for you fans).

Cyric (on behalf of the entire staff of TorilMUD)

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