Haste items

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Dalar
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Haste items

Postby Dalar » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:22 pm

Can we please have haste on some weapons? BC dagger comes to mind. I don't see how haste is overpowered when anyone who has to haste has to stone and later deal damage!
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Postby Gormal » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:35 pm

Haste on BC dagger would actually be pretty balanced, though I don't know if it'd serve much of a point once it started proccing. Time to stock on on verm sleeves!
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Postby kiryan » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:47 pm

I still disagree with haste items.

I like the synergy between melee and hasting classes
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Postby belle » Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:54 pm

What synergy?
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Postby Gormal » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:23 pm

We're all forgetting the fact that except under certain conditions, melee pales in comparison to magical damage anyway.
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Postby Vigis » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:47 pm

You know, I wouldn't be against haste items as long as they were severely limited and harder than hell to get.

Take BC dagger. It would rock if it had haste, but I think the Bel fight would need to be upped a bit (bring back that psychotic door that gave me 10 corpses). Since BC dagger is rogue and bard (?) only it would not get too overcrowded. If BC dagger was the only rogue-able haste weapon (and people who already have one had to quest to get it flagged haste) it makes it even harder.

Classes like Warriors/Rangers/ etc. could probably have more than one type of hasted weapon in the game.... again, make them hard as hell to get.

Paladins got guard, so let's flag holy avenger slow *poke Pril*

All in all though, if it were hard to get and in a zone that rarely gets done (BC before the changes) we would not get the inflation that we had back in Toril/Soj 1 *Hey, look at my emerald longsword!*
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Postby Dalar » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:55 pm

What changes other than the avernus items being rentable made BC easier since I've been gone? Glaives proc while they miss still. You could always run past the guards (my groups never did) and they just made the door proc weaker.
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Postby Vigis » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:12 am

I'd say making the Avernus items rentable was the biggest thing that made it easier. Cut down on the time had to stay in the zone, therefore, it cut down the chance for people to get bored/tired/whatever and make mistakes. The weaker door proc is a pretty big one too. Even tanks can make it out of the doors once in awhile now. Getting rid of the !ground !magic dark room wasn't too big a thing after it was experienced once, but it sure as hell made most of our group worried when 20-30 corpses were deemed !retrieve. I never gave too much thought about the bleed proc on misses (maybe because the groups always had good healers) Running past the rings has become a fairly common tactic. Make the rings !twink, then load a random haste weapon, sometimes it's the dagger, sometimes it's not.

*Shrug* Just my opinion.
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'



Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
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Postby Dalar » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:15 am

I hate dynamic rewards like that because they degrade the quality of the old items, but that's because I love having max stats on all my eq. The miss on bleeding procs is a big thing because there are many ways to make the demons miss consistantly, which keeps the tanks alive, but they die to bleeding procs. Due to this, many of the fights are a race against time regardless of the amount of demons in the rings.
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:47 am

The proc on miss issue is close to being resolved, I just have to stress test it under some other conditions.

Granted it's been that way for a little while, and early experiments resulted in the 300 khanjari attack rounds that you guys enjoyed and didn't mention until the mud crashed.

But it'll be corrected soon.
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Postby Vigis » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:47 am

I can respect that argument regarding the zone Dalar.

Most I have done in that zone is follow through and stand in front when something comes to kill us :) The logs I have of it were always a bit too daunting for me to even think about going through and analyzing. You have led it and along with only a small handful of other mortals have a VERY strong grasp of its mechanics.

I suggest a dynamic reward system because, let's face it, haste is a HUGE bonus to any melee class. Even a warrior dressed to the max in tank gear and hasted will get faster experience than one who is dressed in all hit/dam. While I don't want to imply that people who have gotten the rewards before should be shorted, I do think that if all stats stay the same and there is something like Haste added, they should have to do something to attain it. I know I sure as hell would do a quest to give haste to my weapon as opposed to doing the zone again to get a new one. In a zone, I have 14 other people who might win it, in a quest I am guaranteed.

Since I mentioned exp though, a haste flagged weapon would absolutely have to be level restricted. Could you imagine a level 1 running around with a perm-haste item with the way damage exp is? They would be level 46 in no time with nothing but hitting skills to show for it. :)
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'



Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
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Postby Lilira » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:41 am

Eilistraee wrote:Granted it's been that way for a little while, and early experiments resulted in the 300 khanjari attack rounds that you guys enjoyed and didn't mention until the mud crashed.


HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Dalar » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:29 am

Eilistraee wrote:The proc on miss issue is close to being resolved, I just have to stress test it under some other conditions.

Granted it's been that way for a little while, and early experiments resulted in the 300 khanjari attack rounds that you guys enjoyed and didn't mention until the mud crashed.

But it'll be corrected soon.


BTW, this wasn't me.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:32 am

Correct. While I don't recall who it was that was enjoying the attacks, I know that it wasn't Dalar.

But it was him that called my attention to the initial problem, procs on misses.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:16 am

No offense to you Eilistraee, but was this from a couple of nights ago? I've been complaing about this for a couple of years I think...
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Sarell » Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:16 am

I think haste items would be good fun without hurting anyone too bad. Perhaps up verm sleeves proc to 3 / day or such since clouds is s much harder now.

I don't like downgrading gear or not upgrading gea that people have already got in big zones for the following reasons. The zone breakers, the first groups to do the zones, are going to have an infinately harder / more challenging time, than the people that come after, even with a few mobs added here and there. It's a shame that their gear is then rendered second rate while the stuff people get following in their footsteps (logs), are infinately better. I still like the idea of first time gear even being superior! Artifacts!
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:34 am

I'd rather see a haste item you dont want to use a whole lot. E.g. a full face helmet or body-armor.

Mabye even -10 sv_sp or something else that makes players only use it for xping.

When you play an enchanter even from lvl 16 you are invited into groups just to haste a l33t rogue. That should not be lost.
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:39 pm

Dalar wrote:No offense to you Eilistraee, but was this from a couple of nights ago? I've been complaing about this for a couple of years I think...


I started investigating a fix for this when you first mentioned it to me, which I don't recall when but it was probably mid to late 2004. I don't have the mudmail any longer, but it was on the list of BC flaws. My first ChangeLog comment on it was on March 14th of this year.

In the interim, I've been sidetracked, distracted, forgotten about it, revisisted it, gained the ability to implement changes, tried to implement, broke things (see 300 hit khanjari rounds), fixed them, and gotten distracted/diverted again.

You can take this as an example of the slow pace of development. But I do get to the things I say I will; I just have the really bad habit of taking on a lot of different tasks and then trying to keep them all juggled up in the air while I work on them piecemeal.

Honestly, I don't mind courteous reminders to things you've mentioned. I keep my mmail box with some space, my email is listed. If you've mentioned something to me that hasn't been looked at or rectified or addressed, just toss a simple reminder. Chances are good that I'll revisit the issue and maybe find a solution at last.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:10 pm

Should i just e-mail you and marthammor with my suggestions? You two seem to be doing the most.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:31 pm

If you'd like, though I can't speak for Marthammor. I do look at this bbs, quite regularly (I really dislike those little new post yellow symbols, so I get rid of them) but however the means of communication, I'm available.

Just also frightfully busy.
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Postby Marthammor » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:37 pm

I don't mind being mudmailed about stuff, or if you must, email me (if you email me, mention areas or torilmud or something so I don't delete it). Most small fixes I post to a board we have and once that board hits 30-40 messages I'll spend a weekend and fix most of em. I also do that with mmail, either areas mmail or my own. Larger more game breaking fixes I'll normally take care of the first weekend I have availible to do so.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:40 pm

why do you want haste on an item? is it to increase melee damage or to be self sufficient.

if you want to increase melee damage, increase the base # of attacks or base damage. Let haste remain something that mages/bards do to contribute to group damage.

If your goal is to be self sufficient, id have to see more justification than because you want it. self sufficiency is a lot of what makes rangers attractive not to mention fosters the group oriented theme.

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