Why are res effects still in game?

[Dalar]

Really, why? I don't need the opinions of players because it doesn't solve the questions. Why do the people that maintain this MUD feel that spending 10+ minutes per caster death and 5-10 minutes per melee death is necessary?

[Gormal]

And now for something people care about...

[Lathander]

I'd suffer through a ress effect for a pic from the episode a couple of shows ago...

Lath

[Gormal]

Erica Durance FTW:

[Hsoj]

ress effects give you time to enjoy those pictures AND clean up afterwards

[daggaz]

clean up? huh yeah guess my room is kinda messy..

[daggaz]

clean up? huh yeah guess my room is kinda messy..

[Shevarash]

Res Affects are in the game for two reasons:

1) With no res penalties, a character could be ressed right back into battle, albeit one room away to be safe. That is not particularly balanced and open to abuse - and it was abused when the spell used to work like this.

2) There needs to be a penalty for death, else there is no reason to avoid it, which removes some element of challenge from the game. Ress negates most of the experience penalty, and replaces it with a small temporary fatigue event.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

So, thats why its in the game. I welcome your feedback.

[Hsoj]

damnit, i hate it when Shev has perfectly good reasons for something, you'd think that he was in control of what's going on or something *wink*

[Dalar]

Res Affects are in the game for two reasons:

1) With no res penalties, a character could be ressed right back into battle, albeit one room away to be safe. That is not particularly balanced and open to abuse - and it was abused when the spell used to work like this.

2) There needs to be a penalty for death, else there is no reason to avoid it, which removes some element of challenge from the game. Ress negates most of the experience penalty, and replaces it with a small temporary fatigue event.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

So, thats why its in the game. I welcome your feedback.

1) To res someone in a fight, it takes what, 15-25 seconds to cast the spell , another 5 seconds from the res cast lag. So basically it puts players out of the fight for 20-30 seconds. With the current combat system, can this really be done? Yes it can, but it doesn't sway the fight _that_ much. Why not try removing res effects for a month and see how badly it's abused?

2) "Small temporary fatigue event"? It takes 5-15 minutes to recover one person. For multiple people, add roughly 1 minute per person who died. 5 minutes for a melee to recover, up to 15 minutes for a caster to recover. 1 spank can literally takes 30 minutes to recover from if everyone pays attention. Why are you punishing players with boredom for failing in a game?

Assume we didn't have res effects. Let's say 5 members die, 2 tanks 3 casters. We begin ressing the casters and the 2 tanks. This will take roughly 3 minutes to do. Then we wait for the casters to get essential spells, which is about 2 minutes. Then we spell up again, which takes another minute. If people do it fast, they just wasted 6 minutes of their time. Also, the exp lost is about 10-20 minutes of time they need to exp since zone exp isn't very good.

[/img]

[Gormal]

Spirit Walk FTW.

[Latreg]

better question
Why do birds sing so gay
And lovers await the break of the day
Why do they fall in love?
Why does the rain fall from up above?
Why do fools fall in love?
Why do they fall in love?

[Dalar]

Spirit Walk FTW.

you can't spirit walk to !gate zones noob

[Gormal]

Its still a good alternative to ress in many situations, what I was thinking though was that maybe a change to spirit walk is more in line than a change to ress (aside from giving clerics ress exp and removing the movement penalty to the caster). Try removing the teleportation restriction from spirit walk and see how things work out!

[Thilindel]

2) "Small temporary fatigue event"? It takes 5-15 minutes to recover one person. For multiple people, add roughly 1 minute per person who died. 5 minutes for a melee to recover, up to 15 minutes for a caster to recover. 1 spank can literally takes 30 minutes to recover from if everyone pays attention. Why are you punishing players with boredom for failing in a game?

I agree with that 110%, when there are big spanks, I'm bored off my ass. I hate group spanks cuz it's a lot of hurry up and wait. I'm not against losing more of % in order to get revive type fx. This way revive could just poof you back with a 1 minute fx.

Another thing, although derailing a bit, is why the heck does it take so long for camping? If it's from consideration of twinking, trackin mobs will have your butt on a platter well before that 3 or 4 minutes it takes for camp to work. In that aspect, lich is really screwed vs. other class cuz there's no clairvoy to see who's in vt, etc. It slows forming groups to have to wait for a lich to camp to get an alt.

[Lathander]

I'm confused. Are you talking about for the Resurrection spell or for the Revive spell?

[Thilindel]

Both :P

Have res make you lose more % imho but reduce the fx.
If res fails, then have revive put you back into action within a minute ( *crosses fingers*) =D

But please consider the part on camping too, just cuz I brought it up earlier. It is a rather long wait, and all mobs will track you within seconds anyway. Even from south skull road, a mob tracked me all the way back to druid sanc, since some of those skull road mobs are global trackers, in less than 2 minutes.

[Sarell]

Both :P

Have res make you lose more % imho but reduce the fx.
If res fails, then have revive put you back into action within a minute ( *crosses fingers*) =D

But please consider the part on camping too, just cuz I brought it up earlier. It is a rather long wait, and all mobs will track you within seconds anyway. Even from south skull road, a mob tracked me all the way back to druid sanc, since some of those skull road mobs are global trackers, in less than 2 minutes.

I would hate more exp loss. I already find myself having to do solo DS with a character that has lead well over 1000 high end zones so I don't lose level 50... YAWN, I often find better things to do with my time at night than exp, I used to try to solo stuff but I can't afford the exp at the moment, currently I'm polishing my drumkit, I've only ever done it once before as it is painfully boring, but more fun than DS exp. Res failure is HORRIBLE in the current exp environment. I spent every night for several weeks leveling up my shaman then lost it all in 1.5 hours. :|

On res effects, I think the art of avoiding spanks is something to be kept to add the high edged excitment of a good fight. Rather than FIC, repeat. You could res a whole group before a mob healed one of it's followers if it didn't have effects. It would seriously lessin the group you need to go in with for something like kerdel. Soul walk, and bard song were good work arounds for long res effects. Soul walk especially as your group isn't held up by one person getting hit so badly in a !tele zone. If res effects were halved, maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing, but removing them, egads, everyone would turn into moritheil *Chicken Taunt*. If the level of care people take over dying in a zone is to be reduced, we seriously need to fix exp first so that all the old timers arn't fighting for a spot at ferns...

Camping?!?!!? At the moment you can camp faster than some caster mobs with followers might track to you. Again, gives the mud that more in depth feel, if your so far from civilisation or a friendly town, you have to rough it a bit.

Gormal is obviously thinking of soul walk, not spirit walk, or maybe he's just thinking of that girl.... TOUCH

[Kallinar]

Its still a good alternative to ress in many situations, what I was thinking though was that maybe a change to spirit walk is more in line than a change to ress (aside from giving clerics ress exp and removing the movement penalty to the caster). Try removing the teleportation restriction from spirit walk and see how things work out!

I like the idea od spirit walk being able to go more places but the description of the ability states that "Some magics are known to prevent the caster from finding the corpse." so they made it that for exactly this reason methinks.

[Disoputlip]

...I don't need the opinions of players...

Here is what I think:

Soul walk is ress without the time sink, thus when it comes to "getting into zone, and into battle" then a spell already exists.

With a bard, then resurection fatigue also isn't very long.

I think it is fine as is, and nothing is broken. Only thing I sometimes dislike is the time it takes to find a cleric.

[Yasden]

Here's an idea...

Why not just remove the ability to receive experience for 12 minutes after a res, keeping the same penalty we have now? You could put in a 5 minute effectual timer, that way the bard song isn't completely worthless.

For example, if you're doing xp and you die, you get ressed. You have to wait 12 minutes before you can start xping again. In a zone, however, this is a moot point due to the limited xp you could possibly gain in that time frame. It keeps the slowdown to a minimum, and still penalizes the players for dying.

Just a thought!

-Deathmagnet

[Dalar]

I say remove bard ress song. Why should you guys depend on one class to reduce downtime? Give bards something else

[Yasden]

'song of bbs muting'?

[Lilira]

Sure lets take away one of the two songs that actually gets bards into the zone groups.

*roll*

[Lahgen]

I could give up ress song, if we were given something in return.

but in all fairness, I don't think it would totally destroy our groupability. we DO get reliable area slow.

[Dalar]

Sure lets take away one of the two songs that actually gets bards into the zone groups.

*roll*

Song of offensive disruption, song of renewal, song of healing, song of recovery.

[teflor the ranger]

Camping?!?!!? At the moment you can camp faster than some caster mobs with followers might track to you.

SSSSHhhhhhhhhh stop giving away all my secretses Sarell, they might fix them for 2007 :O(

[Lilira]

That was the second song Lahgen...

Song of healing is only helpful if shamans aren't available, or during a dragon fight... oh or XP. *gag*

Renewal, well that's helpful at times, but I've never noticed that much of a difference in mem times to be honest..

Then again, when I'm maging it there usually isn't a bard.

[teflor the ranger]

[Lathander]

Actually Yasden, the ress effect went in not for xp reasons, but for eq reasons on a rareload.

[Vigis]

For some reason, I now have the song from Drowning Pool stuck in my head. . . "Let the bodies hit the floor, let the bodies hit the floor, let the bodies hit the FLOOOOOOOOR!!!"

Of course. . .it is one of my favorite zoning songs so it might mean that I need to log on :)

[Dalar]

So after Tiamat, there were 300+ corpses. To get around res effects, people used soul walk to get around res effects and continue fighting. This dwindled the overall power of the group as they dropped in level, but not enough to prevent them from killing Tiamat.

What's this mean? Res effects are just an annoyance now. Get rid of bard res song and res effects. While you're at it, please upgrade necromancers and bards.

[Ambar]

So after Tiamat, there were 300+ corpses. To get around res effects, people used soul walk to get around res effects and continue fighting. This dwindled the overall power of the group as they dropped in level, but not enough to prevent them from killing Tiamat.

What's this mean? Res effects are just an annoyance now. Get rid of bard res song and res effects. While you're at it, please upgrade necromancers and bards.

Ress song has been invaluable in the ressing of all the corpses ... I see no reason to DROP ress fx totally, maybe lessen the time (Yeah Yeah I know it has been brought up over and again). There SHOULD be some penalty to dying, whether it be ress fx or the degradation of equipment, where eq can be fixed for a fee wherever it is deemed necessary.

The average death rate as I see it was 10 per player (yes some had more, but somer had less, too.) Thats 240% .. most people have a buffer higher than that and I have been told only 6 ot 7 lost levels, didnt decrease firepower much at all....

[Corth]

I would imagine that most of us agree that sitting around doing nothing is not fun. Frankly, I think exp loss from dying is more appropriate a penalty than sitting around doing nothing. I understand that it is a concern that people can be res'd right back into combat. I think that lowering res effects to maybe 3 minutes, and increasing exp loss after res, would be the best solution here.

[Glorishan]

I read a suggestion a couple weeks ago that I really liked about res. As it stands, yeah you probably waste about 15 minutes as a caster after you die, mem, res, etc... It's a penalty you pay, plus a few % xp loss. Well why not just up the xp loss a couple 2-3 maybe 4% and reduce fx by all but maybe 2-3 minutes. You'd essentially have the same result. Though the time 'sink' would be felt not by the whole group, but rather by the death-ee as that person would have to spend the extra 15 minutes doing xp to make up for the extra xp loss.

[Dalar]

I read a suggestion a couple weeks ago that I really liked about res. As it stands, yeah you probably waste about 15 minutes as a caster after you die, mem, res, etc... It's a penalty you pay, plus a few % xp loss. Well why not just up the xp loss a couple 2-3 maybe 4% and reduce fx by all but maybe 2-3 minutes. You'd essentially have the same result. Though the time 'sink' would be felt not by the whole group, but rather by the death-ee as that person would have to spend the extra 15 minutes doing xp to make up for the extra xp loss.

http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=17295

[Corth]

Stop stealing my ideas glorishang!

[Glorishan]

That's GlorishangGlorishangGlorishang to you, Mister.

[Sarell]

I would imagine that most of us agree that sitting around doing nothing is not fun. Frankly, I think exp loss from dying is more appropriate a penalty than sitting around doing nothing. I understand that it is a concern that people can be res'd right back into combat. I think that lowering res effects to maybe 3 minutes, and increasing exp loss after res, would be the best solution here.

The problem is, exping is sitting around doing nothing from my perspective. I think res effects are good because they effect the way you do a zone, they force you to really try not to die, rather than change the way you exp. With Yasden's idea about the not getting exp after res, I actually, don't see the point of writing that code at all, you don't get exp in the places you die anyhow. You die on dragons and things, you don't get exp from them, 1 mob, long fight, 15 people. I think lowering time after res to say 3 minutes but definately not removing it and changing the exp system completely would be the way to go. I already can't keep 50 as it is and I'm not exactly a low time player.

Here's a rockin' good idea! Have special rooms, like the WD morgue, they can be called infirmarys or something, where if you get ressed, the time is halved. Post zone hangouts. TP, DK WD morgues. Spine. Other peaceful places, garden in avernus perhaps. Then the effects of res would still be in zones, however you wouldn't be wasting your time with resses so badly after.

[Corth]

Sarell:

I agree with you that sitting around in an exp zone for hours on end is the equivalent of doing nothing. Hence the reason I have not had a level 50 character on this mud in the 10 years or so that I have played.

That being said, myself and a LOT of other people have advocated an extensive overhaul of the exp system so that zones (and even fights) that are challenging give a substantial exp bonus, while run of the mill exp zones give an exp penalty. Under these circumstances, a group might be better off doing exp on the TF grid, or clouds, for instance, than going to the pirate ship. Thats the type of exp that is fun, and should be encouraged.

I think if you take that exp overhaul suggestion, and couple it with a severe decrease in res effect time, you will have put together a workable system that makes the game, as a whole, more exciting and fast paced, with less down time.

Corth

[Thilindel]

What I really don't understand about resfx is that pretty much all of us that play the mud have family life, etc. It's not like we're college kids who have nothing else to do besides go to taco hell or a booby bar...or two :P. Anyway, fx does nothing but d r a g out ppl's time. The penalty for dying is slowing the group down. It also forces you to waste time getting to your corpse. And if you're lucky enough, it forces you to waste a weller or wormholer's time too :P Then you get to hunt mr. anon cleric or afk cleric etc. As far as in a zone, the bard is taken OUT of xp/helping the group by sitting on his/her ass with the fx person. This isn't fair to the bard either. Why should a bard get out of xp'g in the zone etc. The group loses a singer - this surely isn't what the person rolling the bard thinks his/her glorious fate will be.

I feel resfx at most should be like camping. Camping takes forever when you're waiting for it to kick in...

[Sarell]

Ahh but TorilMUD is a game about interacting with people in a fantasy environment. It wouldn't be fun if you just logged on got given the gear and logged off again, but it would be faster.

Agree with Corth, but at the moment hands down boring exp is the best exp.

[Lilira]

What I really don't understand about resfx is that pretty much all of us that play the mud have family life, etc. It's not like we're college kids who have nothing else to do besides go to taco hell or a booby bar...or two :P. Anyway, fx does nothing but d r a g out ppl's time. The penalty for dying is slowing the group down. It also forces you to waste time getting to your corpse. And if you're lucky enough, it forces you to waste a weller or wormholer's time too :P Then you get to hunt mr. anon cleric or afk cleric etc. As far as in a zone, the bard is taken OUT of xp/helping the group by sitting on his/her ass with the fx person. This isn't fair to the bard either. Why should a bard get out of xp'g in the zone etc. The group loses a singer - this surely isn't what the person rolling the bard thinks his/her glorious fate will be.

I feel resfx at most should be like camping. Camping takes forever when you're waiting for it to kick in...

*chuckle* I use ress time to go tend to my kids, and there are times I actually look forward to it. I hate the XP penalty, but the wait doesn't bother me except when the zleader is in a hurry. *grin*

[Dalar]

I'd like to think of it like this Lilira:
The less res sickness time, the faster I finish the zone, the faster I attend to Kifle's wife.

[Dalar]

No Forger response eh

[Shar]

Keep the feedback coming, this is an interesting topic to us. We are currently in the "discussion" portion of this particular thread.

Thanks :)

[rylan]

I think reducing res effects would be a nice improvement, and still prevent the 'returning to combat too quickly' issue. If you cut it in half to 5 min, and 2.5min with bard recovery song then you still get the same penalty effect but not as much annoyance of sitting around and waiting to do something.
Casters still have several minutes more of meming after they recover anyway.

[Lilira]

And to think, people get grumpy when I want to mem BEFORE getting ressed... Sure cuts the time down after ress is done.

[Rented]

Its still a good alternative to ress in many situations, what I was thinking though was that maybe a change to spirit walk is more in line than a change to ress (aside from giving clerics ress exp and removing the movement penalty to the caster). Try removing the teleportation restriction from spirit walk and see how things work out!

so there is movement penalty!? cus i died like maybe 10 times already...no wonder my movement keeps getting lower and lower...i was questioning my eq on why my movement wasnt as high as it used to be... *sigh* so if i die enough, ill be able to walk maybe 1 step, rest, 1 step?

[selerial]

Its still a good alternative to ress in many situations, what I was thinking though was that maybe a change to spirit walk is more in line than a change to ress (aside from giving clerics ress exp and removing the movement penalty to the caster). Try removing the teleportation restriction from spirit walk and see how things work out!

so there is movement penalty!? cus i died like maybe 10 times already...no wonder my movement keeps getting lower and lower...i was questioning my eq on why my movement wasnt as high as it used to be... *sigh* so if i die enough, ill be able to walk maybe 1 step, rest, 1 step?

No, actually, there are basically no permanent losses from dying in the MUD. What Gormal was probably referring to is the fact that after you're ressed, your strength is temporarily reduced greatly, and this MUD only allows you to carry so much weight and still be able to move based on your strength. However, just waiting the 10 minutes for the effects to wear off clears that up.

...as far as your problem, perhaps you are carrying around more and more stuff and/or money? Money also counts towards your weight limit. You can deposit cash in the bank to lighten up that load.