Neutral necromancers/liches

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Neutral necromancers/liches

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:30 pm

Ok, so I dump tons of hours and money becoming neutral. Align stands at 55, and I'm raising ghasts left and right, as I should. After today's reboot, it gives some 'You don't even _consider_ such an evil act, meddling with undead!' blah blah when I'm trying to raise. Now, I'm (being polite) EXTREMELY upset that 1) there's no warning in any file that says non-evil necro/lich lose ability to raise pets. 2) Ignored over pitition is this: DS unicorn, amongst other GOOD mobs raise undead. 3) Life-drain helpfile. doesn't list the -6 align you receive each time you cast it, whereas ENERGY DRAIN does. So, if they're going to point out that casting energy drain is 'evil' (So this would lead at least me to think 'Hey, you can be neutral or why the redundancy in this helpfile') So... WHERE THE WORLD is the helpfile anywhere that spending 40k and dumping pretty much 24 rl hours to get neutral align isn't a complete and utter waste of time? :(

There are several neutral and good aligned lich race/well knowns in D&D...
Eilistraee
Staff Member - Quests
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:20 pm

Postby Eilistraee » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:36 pm

1) Help necromancer summarizes the view of necromancy very well.

2) You were not ignored over petition. You may not have liked the answers you received, but you were party to a conversation with Oghma. Furthermore, the unicorn you are referencing is not of good alignment. It is neutral, and neutral mobs are permitted to animate.

3) We cannot, will not put every detrimental effect possible into a helpfile. Some things are left for the players to discover.

I'm sorry that you took the time to alter your alignment. You'll note in the news that several minor tweaks and bugfixes were effected; the code on necromancy was one of those fixes. There was a hiccup in the logic for the check, and I corrected it.
Eilistraee
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:41 pm

so neutral mobs get to animate, yet players don't? I said I was ignored because I know that unicorn animates and both it and I are neutral. It just FULLY strikes me odd that it seems ok for me to waste my time and all that money and I get an 'oh well.' Something as ambiguous as 'tweaks etc.' ...who else would be willing to lose their pets, the core of the class, and time, money, trust in the mud when all the effort is 'newfound territory' as I was told.

It's QUITE clear what happens in the helpfiles for rangers/paladins to misbehave. But odds are they won't have spent 20+ hours and around 40k discovering this.
Lilithelle
Sojourner
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Postby Lilithelle » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:49 pm

Seems like it would have been polite to mention this change to Thilindel as soon as it was discovered to avoid him wasting more time, and if it is a bug maybe a reimb could be considered at least. I know what the rules say, but I'm sure gods have some leeway.
Lil
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:10 pm

I can see mobs doing crap players can't like casting areas in 1ways, casting with a shopkeeper that says No Magic, soandso but what balance problem is it with neutral mobs raising pets and players can't? I'm pretty disgusted that gods saw me going neutral and said nothing whatsoever. . Yes, I wish to become neutral and give up 95% of my power ..I can see -350 thru -1 raising dead, but did I just get get Punked hard or what?
Eilistraee
Staff Member - Quests
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:20 pm

Postby Eilistraee » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:10 pm

I am not privy to everything that Thilindel, or any other player, is doing. I do not watch for ways that I can inconvenience players and take actions to do so.

Him changing his alignment is not a bug. The bug was the ability to animate with the alignment changed, and it has been corrected. Again, I'm sorry it resulted in the loss of time and platinum for you Thilindel.

As for losing your trust in the mud, well I'm sorry for that too. My role is to correct the flaws in the code as I find them, and often enough that causes a player some inconvenience, in greater or lesser extent. This is the price of progress, and I'm sorry if the cost isn't to your liking.
Eilistraee
Lilithelle
Sojourner
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Contact:

Postby Lilithelle » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:34 pm

Seemed obvious to assume that it being changed the boot after his necro achieved neutral meant the change was caused by noticing his neutral necro raising undead. It is of course your job to fix these oversights, I merely assumed you neglected to tell him that his ability to raise undead while neutral was a bug, not out of malice but simply as an oversight.
Lil
Lilira
Sojourner
Posts: 1438
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:53 pm

Postby Lilira » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:40 pm

Out of curiosity.. why would a necro/lich want to go neutral??
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:46 pm

I simply don't understand. What balance issue is it for neutral leaning towards evil to raise undead? You just said mobs can :( There is no balance issue. I fully think it fair that if it were a bug that allowed me to raise while neutral, then I _at least_ should be reimbursed. As I already said there helpfiles for paladin and ranger that clearly point out what happens changing alignment.

I'm not trying to make this seem like I'm after 'Eilistraee'. I didn't know who did what. What I am saying is there's no helpfile at all. Everybody knows how murderous it is to become neutral from evil. Given every god sees player gives on the Wiz channel, let alone I know oghma and shar were on..I'm just so damned mad. What possible balance problem is there with neutral raising players? :(

I checked on the AD&D sites..helm of opposite align doesn't hinder raising dead, thus good align is allowed. Also there were NUMEROUS campaigns where good and neutral necros AND liches would use their power for good, especially concentrating on the dead of the wrongly executed, etc.
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:47 pm

Lilira wrote:Out of curiosity.. why would a necro/lich want to go neutral??


Why not?
Kallinar
Sojourner
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:01 am
Location: C'ville Va.
Contact:

Postby Kallinar » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:54 pm

Well definately for RP purposes I could see a necro/lich going neutral. Just because you gotta be freakin nuts (read chaotic evil) to undergo the process of becoming a lich, Even the most nutty of nutjobs could have a change of heart and try to make up for their evil ways.
Kallinar goes MOO
Image
Confucious say: He who walk around with hand in pocket feel kockie all day.
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:58 pm

I almost went down this road. Back when it was still Miax mud I had petitioned asking if there would be any side effects to my lich going Neutral or Good. I was told no, just that some of my class specific spells probably wouldn't work, otherwise it'd be fine.

You have my condolences on the wasted time, and money but did you ask anyone first before trying it? Just curious.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:30 pm

Yeah, I asked but it was uncharted territory. The gaping problem is this: Helpfiles. How can something so catastrophic be void from any literature on the class' abilities file? I already listed paladins and rangers. They're obviously making it known what happens when you change align. Mages are not granted powers by dieties. There's no ass to kiss in order to retain your power. It's making me mad because there's no explaination as to what would make one seem overpowered by raising dead if you are neutral leaning towards evil. Even neutral period..big deal. If a mob can do it, why not a player? I understand some very unfair stuff like mobs casting incendiary cloud in 1-ways or the ever-so-popular mobs casting when a shopkeeper prevents PCs from casting..but seriously, what balance issue is it whatsoever that neutral cannot raise undead?

They say it was a 'bug' that allowed me to raise last night. Ok, so if it's a bug why wasn't I even offered a token reimb? No, I got nothing. Not even a warning. The pivotal part of a class change was listed as 'tweaks' in the news. *boggle* For the record, I hate the show 'Punked'
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:34 pm

There always has to be a first for a problem to be seen, hun :(

Sorry that happened to you but chalk it up as a lesson learned and fix the alignment?

I'm sure they will get around to the helpfiles eventually, I'm pretty sure they are also dealing with the holidays and family life and it is probably bottom of the pile to them right now.

*hug* hun, again, sorry ti ahppened to you :( Aku has been very helpful to my lil necro in the past *hug*

(oo she is lvl 36 now!)
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."

-Italian Proverb
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:38 pm

lvl 36? *panic* where's my spectre deflecter! :)
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:50 am

8)

There are good liches in Faerun and good undead exist as well, so I don't see why neutral liches can't raise undead, or good liches raise undead.
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:09 am

well the one in question is a necromancer. And there are plenty of cases where neutral and good aligned PC's are raising dead as undead when I searched.

Does nobody else see a HUGE problem in doing something that's not against the rules, losing 40k and a shitload of hours of your own time doing, then having it taken from you? Not even a token offer of reimb? It's like having a perfect attendance record and in the rules at work saying perfect attendance yields a $2000 bonus. Then at the end of the year they say 'Oh, you were promoted during that time, so you don't have perfect attendance for an entire year in that position...sorry - Yeah, I know we should have listed that in the rule book, and hey, I'm sure you'd have really appreciated it PRIOR to wasting your time..but I'm reeally sorry' Trouble with that example is it didn't cost them anything in the process.

All I'm trying to concentrate on, without sounding negative, is there is no balance issue on this.

*tried posting this at 4, but forgot :P
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:48 pm

Try to find a positive out of this...Kelemvor necromancers aren't allowed to raise undead, at all. They're generally neutral. >:) In fact, their goal is to destroy undead.
Support Your Addiction! Vote for TorilMUD Today!

Top Mud Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=shev

Why Nerox is jealous of me:

Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:41 am

8)

It'd be cool if neutral and good necromancers/liches had increased anti-undead spellpower to make up for their lack of pets. Their spells aimed at damaging undead would do maybe 4-5x as much damage and possibly have other effects.
Eilistraee
Staff Member - Quests
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:20 pm

Postby Eilistraee » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:04 pm

After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.
Eilistraee
Glorishan
Sojourner
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Glorishan » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:14 pm

Eilistraee wrote:After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.


Ya big softy!
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'
Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'
Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
Vigis
Sojourner
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Postby Vigis » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:03 pm

Eilistraee wrote:After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.


Did you at least wait until he took his allignment back to -1000? That would be funny :twisted:
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'

Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:23 am

Vielen Dank! Muchas Gracias! Domo Arigato! Ochen' vam Blagodaren! Thank you so much! =D
Llaaldara
Sojourner
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Dobluth Kyor

Postby Llaaldara » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:16 pm

Eilistraee wrote:After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.


And here I was thinking you wanted one of my 10 page menifesto's.

*sniff*

I thought you loved me! :*(
Maedor
Sojourner
Posts: 390
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Maedor » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:58 pm

If I huff and puff and curse and swear and steam and vent, will you change the silly spob portal eili?

smirk
Eilistraee
Staff Member - Quests
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:20 pm

Postby Eilistraee » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:20 pm

No. Any more than anything got changed because of anything anyone said in this thread.
Eilistraee
Tasan
Sojourner
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fridley, Mn USA
Contact:

Postby Tasan » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:24 pm

I believe the any's have it.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'

Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'

Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.

Return to “T2 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests