Guild Halls

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Lilen
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Guild Halls

Postby Lilen » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:09 pm

I know this has been beaten around alot, but when might we expect them?
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Postby Nilan » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:09 am

Houses would be cool too :)


I sure would like one of them

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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:31 pm

The ability to customize your experience through area building and item stringing is one of thew few areas where muds retain a potential advantage over MMPORPG's. Nonetheless, restrings are exceedingly rare and are an incentive not for becoming good at combat but rather for roleplaying, and after so many years we sill do not have kingdom code.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Shevarash » Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:40 pm

Lilen -

I have a list of priorities, and guildhalls comes in around second. It'll be the next big project following the one I'm working on now.
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Postby Nilan » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:13 pm

OOOO Cool :)
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:40 pm

8)

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Postby Ruxur » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:48 pm

i dont see why guild halls would take a back seat. As far as im concerned, there something ALOT of players want to see implemented.
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Postby Lilen » Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:50 pm

Shevarash: If you dont mind me asking, what would take place over this? like ruxur said guild halls are wanted so much, a place to go when u die, a place to store say guild eq and to buy a golem or dragon to watch your doors and only let guild members or guild alts in. buy a fountain and some rogues or something. i know my guild has been saving up bunches of money in case the guild halls come in, and i would think SOI are as well. anyways, a guess on this might be good a month a week 2 months a year any idea?
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Postby Sarell » Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:30 am

I'd think combat system and balancing of high end zones VS old zones would be more pertinent at a guess, oh and of course implementing DG scripts so we don't have to write any more procs *duck*! The actual game.

Sigil Games, Vanguard MMORPG will have player houses that can be customised.

Let's think up some creative ways to get guild halls going?

OLC, guild leaders can OLC a room in their guild zone at a cost of 10K per room? Set prices on other things like guild guards, chests or perm storage rooms, lockable doors with rentable guild only keys, price on keys of course aswell.

Where would we attach guild halls? Could they be set as your pop room? Hometown establishment of a hall = 100K including a connection, 2 rooms, 1 mob, 1 guild guard, 1 message board?

Could you have items associated with your guild hall? Badges perhaps at a cost again, maybe even weapons? Perhaps for a cool million you could get a smith that could reforge(restring) items at a cost of 100K, 50K to your guild the other 50K to the smith!

Could you invent challenges between guild halls? Have say 3 trophies! a RP one, one that sits in a zone and one that sits in whoever's guild raided it last from the other guilds? If you win the monthly RP trophy it sits in your guildhall, each month the zoner trophy is placed at the end of a high level zone, first to find it wins 15K for guild and gets the trophy for the month! Then the conquest trophy, sits in your guildhall, if another guild can bust in and take it, they get it in their guildhall! Perhaps guildhalls could be pkillable areas (with no exp loss but a public guild frag count/log) for those raiders from other guilds? That would be great fun imho. In the log show

Who(guild) killed Who(otherguild) and the roomname(whos guildhall).
e.g.
7th February 2006:: Gormal(Mithrilguard) killed Billy(Goatopia) in The Plush Madow(Goatopia)

(editiing this post as I go, pretty busy atm)
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:56 pm

Ruxur wrote:i dont see why guild halls would take a back seat. As far as im concerned, there something ALOT of players want to see implemented.


Well see Ruxur, that's the thing. What the players want and what the staff wants have to be balanced. Both can't be implemented more then the other. Everthing must be subject to the review of the Toril Checks and Balances System of Implementation.

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Postby Ruxur » Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:53 am

i agree sesexe, but what im saying is that there is a high player intrest for guild halls. and thats kinda the only point im making. If shev is in fact working on balance, and not some other zone that no one will go to then more power to him carry on. I would urge him (although its really none of my buisness) to put guild halls over a new zone. We have a few zones taht we havent figured out/gotten good at yet
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:09 pm

As much as I'd like another zone from shevy to come in so I would have more typos to fix *tease shev*, I know for sure its not a zone. In other threads, he's been saying things are in the works that would address the issue in that thread... I'd say its a pretty good bet that those things are what his current project is.
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:45 pm

fixing his dragon fix? :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby daggaz » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:41 pm

How would you know, whens the last time you fought a dragon, Corth? Or a kooshie for that matter. No offense, I know you were prolly just taking a quick jab, but you are losing your political capital as a l33t knowitall the more you sit and let the mud evolve beyond you.

I like the new dragons. The balancing is going well. THey are scary now, but doable.

Looking forward to your next project shev (guessing its combat balancing etc from your other posts), guildhalls will rule, i pray OLC is #3.
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:15 am

I don't know anything mang. When I tried to zone a couple of months ago I had to hit "help skill_illusionist" more than a couple of times. I forgot what spells I had and which circles they were in.

I just go by what I see here. If dragons are balanced now then I am glad. :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Lilira » Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:23 am

I hate to say it Daggaz, and I'm sure I'll regret saying this since the chance of a 'burning ring of fire' exists...

I haven't found too many instances of zones where OLC was used and I was impressed. Of course that might be because I went to a zone where the creator was really paying attention and there weren't major typos and other ickys in the middle of things, therefor rendering it indestinguishable from the rest of the zones...

What's the big hairy deal? There's software out there to let you build and create, its not even THAT hard to get ahold of! I've played with DE and TE back in the day, and while I never really finished anything, it was still pretty user friendly! Oh and there's the lovely side benefit where I didn't have my char aliases going off in the middle of a room descrip.

I'd much rather see some melee changes (which I'm sure is probably the current project since Shev asked everyone for input on them) than see OLC. Yeah, it would make guild halls etc easier, but Rhoquinn and I used TorilEditor for the old Pride clan hall and it worked quite nicely if I do say so myself.

/rant
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Postby Ambar » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:39 am

OLC is the shiznit when creating ..
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Postby daggaz » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:03 am

1.) The TE editor is really really good at crashing all the time unless you save constantly (something the docs themselves mention repeatedly).

2.) The TE editor wont even run properly on lots of new windows systems. ( I am concidering putting together a commodore 64 for the sole purpose of running this program, maybe one day i will get to finish my giant zone i started four years ago)

3.) OLC is the shizznit when it comes to area creating. (thanks ambar =)) While it is a system easily abused by n00b writers due to the ease at which you can produce, a more skilled writer gets a real good hands-on, in-the-mud real deal feel for what he/she is creating. Its also a ton faster and allows for better testing and reduces bugs.

I would hope at least a new improved editor could come online that wont crash half as much, has the newer updated flags in it, and is post 1990 windows compatible.
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Postby Sarell » Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:36 am

CircEdit .89X for circle mud is compliant with the TorilMUd area docs. For making area files. It gives you a map, you can move around freely, see colours, jump to rooms, import different areas bitvectors and stuff for button pressing goodness, it auto does the exits. It pretty much rules. Check it out.

http://www.circlemud.org/pub/jelson/Cir ... c/offline/

I'm pretty sure from a wierd adventuring experience TorilMUD has OLC, your just not allowed to use it as a player.

Hrmm might not be on circle anymore, for a limited time it is at http://www.scionsofnetheril.com/downloads/CircEdit.zip , it is under mud license so I think I'm allowed to give a copy. But if you do make a zone with it, it says in the license you must include some kudos statement to it in your credits command output so you would have to talk to Cyric about that.

Oh and after you output the world file, you have to add a single ~ at the end of it to be sojourn compliant I think...
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:46 pm

Lilira wrote:I hate to say it Daggaz, and I'm sure I'll regret saying this since the chance of a 'burning ring of fire' exists...

I haven't found too many instances of zones where OLC was used and I was impressed. Of course that might be because I went to a zone where the creator was really paying attention and there weren't major typos and other ickys in the middle of things, therefor rendering it indestinguishable from the rest of the zones...

What's the big hairy deal? There's software out there to let you build and create, its not even THAT hard to get ahold of! I've played with DE and TE back in the day, and while I never really finished anything, it was still pretty user friendly! Oh and there's the lovely side benefit where I didn't have my char aliases going off in the middle of a room descrip.

I'd much rather see some melee changes (which I'm sure is probably the current project since Shev asked everyone for input on them) than see OLC. Yeah, it would make guild halls etc easier, but Rhoquinn and I used TorilEditor for the old Pride clan hall and it worked quite nicely if I do say so myself.

/rant


Lilira, read this thread plz. There is a lot about OLC you don't seem to understand:

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... highlight=
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:08 pm

I'm stating this as a personal opinion, and will not have it taken as any sort of official staff position on the topic.

I dislike OLC. I've worked with it, and worked without it. While the creation process is simplified by a program that does a lot of the decision making and repetition on your half, I do not like what it does to the creation process. If you do not need to take the time to figure out your additive bits, or to copy/paste your description, then there is little need to put the extra thought into it. Research is critical to producing a quality zone, research and attention to detail. Rapid-fire creation, by its nature, discourages both of those due to the seductive nature of 'getting it done'.

OLC would be excellent as an editing and debugging tool. I personally dislike it though as a primary creation utility.
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Postby daggaz » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:10 am

THANKS SARELL!!!

EL: yeah i kinda touched on that point, its true enough. But if you *do* put the thought and time into designing your zone, then OLC is a god-send.

Do they really have it here?
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Postby Botef » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:54 pm

TE has always worked well enough for me. The crashes have never been much of an issue once you learn to save ever time you edit something. It definately forces you to do a little preplanning and thinking which I like...

What gets me excited more than anything else about OLC is being able to test ideas on the fly. TE doesn't allow you to test your concepts or see the actual mob stats during the creation process. I think the ability to test this during creation can be beneficial because it allows the writer to discard concepts and ideas that are not functional before they become an integral part of the zone rather then having to 'hack' a fix into a zone during the test phase.

Using TE, your left with a lot of testing when you finally load your zone up, and it can be easy to forget to test concepts that may not work in the end anyways, forcing you to change your zone after its already more or less finished...This is where I find OLC to be of the most use, particularly when creating zones that push new playing concepts.
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Guildhalls

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:33 pm

You guys want one of the easiest ways to bring people back?
To get people interested again?
To revitalize the economy?
To have a good plat sink?
To have better auctions and less hoarding?
To promote some minor RP?

Stop the major projects and put Guildhalls back in. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, it doesn't have to be the final version of guildhalls or kingdom code. But the idea behind having a guildhall, and being a part of creating it and just renting in it and having it as your recall point does WONDERS to player morale.

I'm a human ranger, so believe me, I REALLY want to see changes to melee. But for the greater good, and the IMMEDIATE aid of the mud and its playerbase, this, I FEEL, should be done.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:30 am

I appreciate the feedback.
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Postby Hali » Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:55 am

Can someone just simply describe what kingdom code is? Is it some lingo for something?
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Postby Lilira » Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:51 am

Kingdom code...

Making and personalizing your own home, for a price. Owning shops where you get a profit, or participating in trade to build your personal fortune... Guild halls...

I'm sure there's WAY more than that, but that's all I'm familiar with, and all stuff that has existed at some point or another (eons ago), though the shop wasn't a personal shop, it was a guild shop...
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Re: Guildhalls

Postby Ashiwi » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:46 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:You guys want one of the easiest ways to bring people back?
To get people interested again?

Stop the major projects and put Guildhalls back in.


Substitute "Tiamat" for "Guildhalls" and that would look like something I've seen before...
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:02 pm

Anything you hear about "kingdom code" is merely hearsay or rumor. I have never disclosed it as an official project.

As for dropping everything to do guildhalls, Ashiwi hit the nail on the head - I did that with Tiamat. I do not feel that the current project I'm working on can afford to be put off any further, and I hope that you agree with me when its details are fully disclosed.

You do have my assurance that guildhalls is a large priority and is next in the queue.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:29 pm

Eilistraee wrote:I'm stating this as a personal opinion, and will not have it taken as any sort of official staff position on the topic.

I dislike OLC. I've worked with it, and worked without it. While the creation process is simplified by a program that does a lot of the decision making and repetition on your half, I do not like what it does to the creation process. If you do not need to take the time to figure out your additive bits, or to copy/paste your description, then there is little need to put the extra thought into it. Research is critical to producing a quality zone, research and attention to detail. Rapid-fire creation, by its nature, discourages both of those due to the seductive nature of 'getting it done'.

OLC would be excellent as an editing and debugging tool. I personally dislike it though as a primary creation utility.



That's all fine and good for someone that can import their own revisions to a test mud from notepad or whatever. For those of us without that ability, we sometimes have to wait weeks if not months to see what our zone looks like, and many times when we do see it, whoever brought it in has changed things to be how they want. I got extremely frustrated with the areas staff the last time I was working, and I'll be damned if I will go through THAT process again. Thankfully there are now people here that are inclined to help you and get things done in a fastidious manner, so that you don't become burned out by the process of getting the damned thing to test, rather than making the zone itself.

As a primary creation tool for a brand new player, it probably creates more problems than helps to deter, however for someone who's been through the ringer a few times and knows what they want and how to get it, you can't ask for a better system.
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Projects?

Postby zusuk » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:26 am

Why do projects have to be secretive here? I think I heard somewhere that a new race is coming in... why don't we know which race it is going to be?

Just curious, if there is a good reason that I don't know 'bout tho, I'd love to hear it :)
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Postby sotana » Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:42 pm

I don't know if 'secretive' is the correct word to describe the staff, Zusuk. More often than not it seems to me that 'prudent' is a better word. No doubt they have their own reasons for not posting specific projects in the works but I, for one, would rather be able to allocate my donated time where it best fits instead of also trying to juggle the proffered opinions and demands for updates that crop up once a specific project has been announced, ala Tiamat! :-P

I'm having a great time with things as they are and am still finding new people, new places, new things to explore in spite of my over 200 hours of ptime on my main *gulp* Anything that is added to the game at this point will just go on my list of things I haven't gotten to yet but will eventually (stupid list just keeps getting longer and longer *mutter*)

As for the new race, Shev responded to this speculation a couple of weeks ago in http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17768.
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Re: Projects?

Postby Dalar » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:10 pm

zusuk wrote:Why do projects have to be secretive here? I think I heard somewhere that a new race is coming in... why don't we know which race it is going to be?

Just curious, if there is a good reason that I don't know 'bout tho, I'd love to hear it :)


Because the designers of the MUD have figured out that if they discuss projects then the playerbase will whine about the changes and ask when they will be released. Also, the best design strategy in all MMOs are best done by people who don't actually play the game. I mean, look at WoW.
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:42 pm

Hi, all active coders actually play the game. Thanks, bye.
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Postby Verarb » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:33 pm

Why all the clamor for guidhalls?
isnt that gonna make toril seem even more less populated if everyone just hung out at their own guidhalls?.
Didnt they already imp inn storage systems? why the big need for guild storage?.
You all can talk to each other over acc can't you?
Guildhall guards are Garden hedges and use to be fun exp whats the point of them atm?(Stupid useless procs).

The Secret super project thats more important than guidhalls is upgrading Verarb.
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Postby Glorishan » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:01 am

Shevarash wrote:Hi, all active coders actually play the game. Thanks, bye.


Is this your round-about way of saying we have no active coders?!!
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:32 am

No, not really. I've been coding an insane amount lately, as has Eilistraee.
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Re: Projects?

Postby Brandobaris » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:46 am

Dalar wrote:
zusuk wrote:Why do projects have to be secretive here?

Because the designers of the MUD have figured out that if they discuss projects then the playerbase will whine about the changes and ask when they will be released.

I'm guessing this is the case. An experienced person knows that once you start talking about "what's going to happen" when it isn't finished, if it doesn't happen, and soon, it often will lead to complaints and frustration.

Speaking from my own experience on another game, sometimes projects wouldn't work out, I'd get busy irl, or I would lose interest. Since I never mentioned those projects, there were never any complaints. My friend, on the other hand, was constantly telling players about upcoming features every time he simply had an idea. As a result, players were regularly asking "when's (whatever) coming in?". He rarely actually did any of what he talked about, which caused player frustration.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:02 am

Actually, I vaguely remember one of the staff posting something about not providing project lists, because of all the bitching and whining that was going on. The process used to go like this:

Staffmember A posts that he is working on gizmo allocation project, and hopes to have it finished in a certain amount of time.

Life interferes.

Players start to bitch and repost A's post over and over, attempting to point out how A has to make the mud a priority in his life and he's causing life as we know it to majorly suck because he didn't get his project done. Everbody knows that without gizmo allocation, the gaming world as we know it is doomed and anything else in A's life should naturally take a back seat.

A is made personally responsible for the eventual demise of the mud.

A gets thoroughly disgusted with the whole process.


It's simple logic, really, as old as time. God told Adam and Eve his next project was apple pie; next thing you know, we're walking on concrete, wearing polyester, and I have cramps every month.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:15 am

That'd be Kiryan. Bitch bitch whine whine, Tia comes in and he's not playing again.
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Re: Projects?

Postby Dalar » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:49 pm

Brandobaris wrote:
Dalar wrote:
zusuk wrote:Why do projects have to be secretive here?

Because the designers of the MUD have figured out that if they discuss projects then the playerbase will whine about the changes and ask when they will be released.

I'm guessing this is the case. An experienced person knows that once you start talking about "what's going to happen" when it isn't finished, if it doesn't happen, and soon, it often will lead to complaints and frustration.

Speaking from my own experience on another game, sometimes projects wouldn't work out, I'd get busy irl, or I would lose interest. Since I never mentioned those projects, there were never any complaints. My friend, on the other hand, was constantly telling players about upcoming features every time he simply had an idea. As a result, players were regularly asking "when's (whatever) coming in?". He rarely actually did any of what he talked about, which caused player frustration.


Keep in mind old Gargauth, the cranky choad coder, did something like this. He said he had plans to change Erlan items to something cool but his HD crashed and RL interfered. Then we got the current set, which was sub-par to what he was telling us. Huge letdown. What's worse, having no information or having a ton of ideas fly by you only to be completely redesigned or lost.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'

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