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[Drache]

What is it this mud is missing? This hopefully can be a thread about what you would like to see in the mud. What I would like to see is not being a warrior that wears hit and damage gear and get yelled at for it because I'm not wearing zone eq that gives hitpoints. I'm really confused why warrior eq is set up like it is. Warriors in zones are clearly not damage, yet they should be! -so what do you all think the mud needs?

[Latreg]

What is it this mud is missing? This hopefully can be a thread about what you would like to see in the mud. What I would like to see is not being a warrior that wears hit and damage gear and get yelled at for it because I'm not wearing zone eq that gives hitpoints. I'm really confused why warrior eq is set up like it is. Warriors in zones are clearly not damage, yet they should be! -so what do you all think the mud needs?

this mud is missing players, newbies to be specific. The "this class needs this" topic comes up frequently....

But I'll try to address the warrior gear choices. Generally you will be bashing and rescueing. This should mean you will be hit more often than the other group members. There is lag with bash and rescue therefore you will not get as many attacks as the other melee classes, even without the lag the other melee classes will do more damage than a warrior. so the main function of a warrior is to keep group members alive and standing so they can cast, which means you need to try and keep yourself alive or atleast be able to take lots of damage, hence the hp gear. This does not mean I agree or disagree, but merely trying to explain.

[kiryan]

I'm starting to think we are missing stabilty in eq changes.

I'm still a little irritated that 8 years of memorized stat knowledge was wiped out in the first eq changes, but ok. I didn't memorize all the new eq changes, but I had a pretty good idea of what was good and what sucked... However, it just keeps changing month after month something is completely changed, and while 95% of the ongoing changes seems to be good ones, I still wish we could bring some more stability to the eq.

----

I'm also thinking we need to expand our approach to content "expansions".

[Llaaldara]

What is it this mud is missing? This hopefully can be a thread about what you would like to see in the mud. What I would like to see is not being a warrior that wears hit and damage gear and get yelled at for it because I'm not wearing zone eq that gives hitpoints. I'm really confused why warrior eq is set up like it is. Warriors in zones are clearly not damage, yet they should be! -so what do you all think the mud needs?

Drache, in reference to your question, "What is this mud missing?"

Chaos.


There is no longer a chaotic element to Toril. Everything is subject to the ongoing and endless review of the Toril Checks and Balances, from admin policy to zone/eq implementation. It's like playing a game run by a bunch of obsessive-compulsive accountants.

Toril appears to be stuck in a circular loop of attention to details-itis amidst endless reviews, both from staff and players. The quest for ultimate balance has lead to the stagnation of the fun factor. As was said in the movie 'The Incredibles', "When everyone is super... noone will be."

With major mud/code/direction changes so far and few inbetween, it leads to endless nit-picking of what is available, which only serves to un-inspire the staff to want to implement anything, and to definitely not implement things without being as reviewed/researched as possible. This is understandable, noone wants to have their work endlessly nit-picked over. It's annoying to say the least.

It's a vicious cycle that leads to only one end result, a steady decline.

So can it be stopped? Can things be turned around? Sure they can. So how? People bitch less, usually, when they have more on their hands then they know what to do with. This is because they spend most of the time trying to just figure everything out first, before bitching. So if you constantly keep them on the ropes with incoming content, you keep them off balance.

People also bitch less about the things you do when you ask for their opinion first.

What do I mean specifically? I mean, Toril needs to stop reviewing every goddam thing over and over again and reviewing and reviewing and checking and checking and getting it run past so and so and so and so and let people just start implementing things in. This is what I meant long ago when I said to start 'delegating'.

In essence, Implement their asses off.

Flood the mud with new ideas constantly. Yes, even if they don't all work, just remove the ones that don't turn out so great. Even temporary imbalances will create excitement for many players, especially those who like to look/abuse such things. Here's the trick, remove them soon after review and testing/feedback of the players. You acquire player respect/loyalty if you publically credit the addition or removal of ideas to your pbase. While on the contrary, giving endless excuses and political type reasons for why this was done and we'll get back to you, kills the respect players have for their implementors.


There is a big difference between doing and saying:

"Hey we tried this out, but you guys hated it, so we pulled it and we're gonna try something else that was suggested."

Vs.

"Hey we tried this out, but you guys weren't using it right, so we pulled it as is and are going to spend the next year tweaking it until you use it right."



If you wrote a book, and your friend spent the next 2 years pointing out things wrong with it, it'd drive you crazy wouldn't it? Do you think you're friend would have the chance to nitpick it if you handed him a new book (good or bad) every month?


To hell with the consequences, get the Imp machine rolling.

[Thilindel]

My favorite is when an item is downgraded for the entire mud's populace to suffer because one single person figured out a way with their ingenuity to solo. Not only does the mob, the surroundings, etc get upgraded to prevent further solo'g, the item acquired gets hosed. Right off the top of my head, Wrist Razors anyone? :P

[Yarash]

My favorite is when an item is downgraded for the entire mud's populace to suffer because one single person figured out a way with their ingenuity to solo. Not only does the mob, the surroundings, etc get upgraded to prevent further solo'g, the item acquired gets hosed. Right off the top of my head, Wrist Razors anyone? :P

This is a thread about what you'd like to see, but I feel compelled to respond. The problem as I see it is, when a single person can solo a fight or part of a zone, it either ruins or makes it less enjoyable for an actual zone group that might go in there. The problem is compounded if it's so easy that the person starts farming it. For example, I've been in at least one group that was planning to do IC, and it was discovered that someone had done the archie fight already. Well, there isn't much point in doing the zone after that... (plus I think there is a key from that fight that is needed)

I tend to agree that downgrading the eq from such fights is generally a bad idea. If something is too easy, the fight should be made harder.

- Mike

[Ambar]

Its not just *average* mudder who can solo that stuff :p By changing it cause one can do it, you may be crippling more than you think.

[Tanji Smanji]

Its not just *average* mudder who can solo that stuff :p By changing it cause one can do it, you may be crippling more than you think.

Bump, quick thinking and skill is punished way too much.

[Thilindel]

Sorry for hijacking, but that's what I meant totally...ingenuity, skill, and just straight up brilliance is punished here. I was observing the person in question when a particular god didn't like how skillful this undesignated player is, so said god started changing the rooms in the zones to one ways, yet the player STILL outwitted these impromptu changes, so the god tookover some mobs and started attacking us. Where we were observing is not an area where the mobtypes even wonderered..let alone, the mob overtaken followed a leader (but was completely alone). This was awhile ago so I doubt the current gods did it.

It's just the fact that taticians, purely gifted and skilled players get punished and eventually the entire player base, just for excercising skill.
What sense is it to nerf the eq, then make the fight harder? Nerf makes you go 'ugh.' Then finding the fight to get the nerfed eq was made more difficult - 'WTF?' *shrug* Hasn't happened lately, but the changes/downgrades are still in effect and the fights for solo'd eq are still harder than they previously were.

When gods notice a zone's been 'twinked', then at that point, considerations should be made. Not downgrading eq. Principal to student body: "Sorry students, but because student A is gifted, you are all taking extra homework, and receiving lesser scores for your efforts!!" - bad policy :P

[Marthammor]

Sorry for the hijack, but would like to comment on the changes made regarding twinking.
When I make changes to a fight because its been or is being twinked, I normally look to see how often its been done and decide from there if I nuke the item or change the fight. Normally I can just change the fight, which is the preferred method.

Now as to why things get changed so that they can't be twinked, or twinked as easy:
If it were just one person doing it every so often, that’s one thing. When it gets done early every boot so no one else can do it, that’s another. It’s also different when the tactic is picked up by several other people and then everyone starts doing it making the fight/zone easier then it was intended.

Least that's my opinion on changing things.

[Naled]

What is missing imho is lack of stuff to do for small groups/solo. Half the time there aren't enough people online to zone or even form an xp group. It would be nice if there would be small zones or quests aimed at the off-peak players. Make quests were people can gain xp. Maybe some more eq quests that can be done solo, but are still a challenge.

[Latreg]

What is missing imho is lack of stuff to do for small groups/solo. Half the time there aren't enough people online to zone or even form an xp group. It would be nice if there would be small zones or quests aimed at the off-peak players. Make quests were people can gain xp. Maybe some more eq quests that can be done solo, but are still a challenge.

Corym.(sp) mines is an excellent addition lots-o-quests and exp. then there's always airship, wouldn't mind seeing another zone like those.

I'd like to see a lower level S.P.O.B. or something similar.

Now that there is several people walking around in Tia gear and stuff from other high end zones, the twinking factor will increase i would think as well as zones will be done with smaller groups/faster and easier.

If you want or need to solo, you need a class that can do that.....

[Corth]

Drache, in reference to your question, "What is this mud missing?"

Chaos.

YES!

I lub joo!

Bring back politics, artifacts, and god favoritism.

I'm going to say it..

Bring... back... Mystra... (OMG!)

We need someone running this mud who will make it interesting again. Sorry shev! Bye shev!

[kiryan]

At some points, the quest for balance may be overrated, but I'm quite certain that I don't agree with Llaaldara's suggestion to open the flood gates and implement with little oversight. Our oversight is probably already too lax but it is necessary.

I do understand what she is going after though. the game balance theory that says as long as no choice is consistently the best choice, you have balance. We'll, while that may be "balance" over the long term you have tremendous localized imbalances over time which, in my opinion, result in pissing everyone off at least once or twice.

Is that the kind of balance / game you want? Where everyone has been given something retardedly powerful and been nerfed back into uselessness? Fun for 2 weeks, dominating even, then a useless char for the next 6 months until the constant whining reuslts in new unbalanced changes? And since I mention whining, how do you think these broken skills get implemented? Lots of whining. Isn't the constant drone already unberable?

And lets talk about reducing oversight so that we can reward innovative players who find twinks. There are / were several zones that would reload their eq if there was 0 in the game.. often times with little to no 'work'. Are you seriously advocating that we allow these type of twinks be used to provide 'fun' for people? Whats the harm you say?

I heard not to long ago that vault in Choking palace was teleportable... so the player that figured that out could've gotten dozens of sets of the eq then let the gods know to fix it or get caught and have the twink nerfed? There was a shop that once upon a time bought items for more than it sold them for, infinite money. Thats good right cuz it was fun for whomever figured it out? What about for the rest of the people who had invested time or savvy trading to earn their fortunes?

I once played on a mud with tagad taelin sok tain. We called it exploit mud. Monks were tanks and damage and had a skill that could only be used once a day to heal to full, except that the timer could be dispelled and you could use the skill constantly. Whats the harm in that right? Its just fun? On this mud you could spend exp to buy permanent hps. So over the course of a month, what took a warrior thousands of hours to earn in hps, could be earned by a monk abusing the exploit. But it was fun for the monk?

The problem for rewarding exploits, whether they are code or areas, is that you harm someone else, usually everyone else, in the process. This game is highly dependent on time as a measure of value. Deaths cost time, zones cost time, exp and platinum cost time. When you strive for "balance" you strive to create equality between the benefits / penalties of all activities relative to time.

When you allow time twinks to be rampant, your going to find a lot of disgruntled people. They don't look at it like wow that guy is so smart he figured out how to get xyz in mytime/1000, they say wtf, i spent 1,000 hours doing what he did in 1 hour with a twink.

That was the end result at exploit mud. people who knew the twinks played religously and had tons of "fun" and people who didn't know the twinks said f* this bs i quit over the course of about 6 months. Then the people who were "having fun" quit. why? because they were only having fun because they had an unfair advantage and could lord it over others, when that disappeared there was no more "fun" left for them.

The chaos theory of balance is not the holy grail, and while relaxing control to implement new features/content may be good for the future direction of toril... consider the impact of the call for allowing more "twinks" on time equality in light of the primary activity on toril (gaining more treasure and leveling more characters) and in light that the current players are long term investors in toril.

I'd call it fatal.

[Thilindel]

Just going back to the wrist razor example, then the risk factor - You have an item that could be solo'd by a VERY good player. So gods downgrade the item. In doing so, they downgrade the incentive to do the zone it's located in. Not only that, they increase the difficulty of the fights, the levels and numbers of the patrols. Why? This 'balance' here reminds me of the symetry of a ...hrm, there's no balance, nevermind :P Why aren't gods just making a channel specifically for those established players who can give a neutral opinion of risk vs. reward vs. stats. Seems pretty basic to me *shrug*

People can't expect gods to impliment, code, etc, and still play a lot (giving a working understanding of twinkability) Hell, I'm pretty much a full time player, but I'm no Lilithelle, Pava, Sarell..etc for skill. I do, however, know if a fight's worth the effort. I just wish gods would consider this channel idea for the true great players - surely the gods know who these players are, as they are probably watched solo'g stuff at the beginning of each boot :P

[kiryan]

i think in the solo question hasn't really been looked at right during some points in the past...

for instance, if it takes a 15 man group 10 minutes to slay wrist razor, thats 150 minutes...

If it takes a solo player 150 minutes, or 2 players 75 minutes, i'd strongly consider that being 'balanced'.

On the other hand, specifically regarding wrist razor, because people were twinking the wrist razor, it was already causing people to not want to do the zone and the argument that the downgrade somehow harmed the zone further is illogical. When doing the whole zone requires a group, being able to twink substantive portions of it does detract from the zone.

Risk if you ask me is moot, risk = death = time, everything is about time.

[Thilindel]

It is logical due to the fact that the fight was upgraded and the razor was downgraded. Gods doing both dg'g eq and increasing fight at the same time is what's not logical. Given the razor was downgraded, you now know going into the zone it will be there. And the fight isn't worth it.

[ssar]

What is it this mud is missing?

Drache, in reference to your question, "What is this mud missing?"

Chaos.

Yes. Bring back chaos new year, chaos xmas.. Let's start with chaos easter.
Oh and add more multi weekends, one per (real) season or something.

[Thilindel]

The Multiplay day was a f'g bullseye, yet 4 months have past :( The poll showed it was liked!

[Llaaldara]

That was the end result at exploit mud. people who knew the twinks played religously and had tons of "fun" and people who didn't know the twinks said f* this bs i quit over the course of about 6 months. Then the people who were "having fun" quit. why? because they were only having fun because they had an unfair advantage and could lord it over others, when that disappeared there was no more "fun" left for them.

Replace 'twink' in your example with 'elite' and you've got Toril.

[Vipplin]

*Agree*

At some points, the quest for balance may be overrated, but I'm quite certain that I don't agree with Llaaldara's suggestion to open the flood gates and implement with little oversight. Our oversight is probably already too lax but it is necessary.

I do understand what she is going after though. the game balance theory that says as long as no choice is consistently the best choice, you have balance. We'll, while that may be "balance" over the long term you have tremendous localized imbalances over time which, in my opinion, result in pissing everyone off at least once or twice.

Is that the kind of balance / game you want? Where everyone has been given something retardedly powerful and been nerfed back into uselessness? Fun for 2 weeks, dominating even, then a useless char for the next 6 months until the constant whining reuslts in new unbalanced changes? And since I mention whining, how do you think these broken skills get implemented? Lots of whining. Isn't the constant drone already unberable?

And lets talk about reducing oversight so that we can reward innovative players who find twinks. There are / were several zones that would reload their eq if there was 0 in the game.. often times with little to no 'work'. Are you seriously advocating that we allow these type of twinks be used to provide 'fun' for people? Whats the harm you say?

I heard not to long ago that vault in Choking palace was teleportable... so the player that figured that out could've gotten dozens of sets of the eq then let the gods know to fix it or get caught and have the twink nerfed? There was a shop that once upon a time bought items for more than it sold them for, infinite money. Thats good right cuz it was fun for whomever figured it out? What about for the rest of the people who had invested time or savvy trading to earn their fortunes?

I once played on a mud with tagad taelin sok tain. We called it exploit mud. Monks were tanks and damage and had a skill that could only be used once a day to heal to full, except that the timer could be dispelled and you could use the skill constantly. Whats the harm in that right? Its just fun? On this mud you could spend exp to buy permanent hps. So over the course of a month, what took a warrior thousands of hours to earn in hps, could be earned by a monk abusing the exploit. But it was fun for the monk?

The problem for rewarding exploits, whether they are code or areas, is that you harm someone else, usually everyone else, in the process. This game is highly dependent on time as a measure of value. Deaths cost time, zones cost time, exp and platinum cost time. When you strive for "balance" you strive to create equality between the benefits / penalties of all activities relative to time.

When you allow time twinks to be rampant, your going to find a lot of disgruntled people. They don't look at it like wow that guy is so smart he figured out how to get xyz in mytime/1000, they say wtf, i spent 1,000 hours doing what he did in 1 hour with a twink.

That was the end result at exploit mud. people who knew the twinks played religously and had tons of "fun" and people who didn't know the twinks said f* this bs i quit over the course of about 6 months. Then the people who were "having fun" quit. why? because they were only having fun because they had an unfair advantage and could lord it over others, when that disappeared there was no more "fun" left for them.

The chaos theory of balance is not the holy grail, and while relaxing control to implement new features/content may be good for the future direction of toril... consider the impact of the call for allowing more "twinks" on time equality in light of the primary activity on toril (gaining more treasure and leveling more characters) and in light that the current players are long term investors in toril.

I'd call it fatal.

...

i think in the solo question hasn't really been looked at right during some points in the past...

for instance, if it takes a 15 man group 10 minutes to slay wrist razor, thats 150 minutes...

If it takes a solo player 150 minutes, or 2 players 75 minutes, i'd strongly consider that being 'balanced'.

On the other hand, specifically regarding wrist razor, because people were twinking the wrist razor, it was already causing people to not want to do the zone and the argument that the downgrade somehow harmed the zone further is illogical. When doing the whole zone requires a group, being able to twink substantive portions of it does detract from the zone.

Risk if you ask me is moot, risk = death = time, everything is about time.

*Agree*

I'll post some ideas shortly.

Iyced/Vadian

[amolol]

cowbell.

[Vipplin]

Posted an idea in the ideas forum - basically talking about xp token rewards in zones. Idea initially brought up in the 90hr rule thread.

Iyced/Vadian

[kiryan]

I don't think so ll.

I'm sure some people have quit because there isn't enough "competition" left, or people to lord it over, but I don't think its even close to the biggest factor in the decline.

I'm sure theres plenty of people being dicks and making people want to quit, but thats not the same as what i said is it. If you think it is, read the post again.