Serious Pbase Problems

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:52 pm

Tasan wrote:Not to mention a LOT more robust system for creation *cough*OLC*cough*.


Wasn't that supposed to be the next project after Tia?
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Postby Shar » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:41 am

Llaaldara wrote:
Tasan wrote:Not to mention a LOT more robust system for creation *cough*OLC*cough*.


Wasn't that supposed to be the next project after Tia?


No
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Postby sok » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:03 am

Tasan wrote:
Corth wrote:Just do something already.


As my sister said to her boyfriend as she dumped him this weekend:

"Shit or get off the pot!"


she should keep that type of talk in the bedroom
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Postby Kegor » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:50 am

Shar wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:
Tasan wrote:Not to mention a LOT more robust system for creation *cough*OLC*cough*.


Wasn't that supposed to be the next project after Tia?


No


The best thing this game has going for it is the regular players who all have gotten to know eachother (no matter how long they have played for) and the constant change via improvements to code and additions to areas. The additions and changes just allow for the people who have played here longer to stay interested longer. The missing element to successful things in the past though is OLC and areas creation. OLC should be one of the top prio fixes imo.

I don't know how many people used OLC on Homeland, but wow was that sweet and painless. OLC obviously has many benifits. It takes a fraction of the time to dig rooms, write descriptions, create items, and everything else associated with zone writing. But the real major benifit is that you wouldn't need a high level areas god to copyover files on the test mud and all that stupid crap, which takes entirely too long (1-2 weeks, sometimes a month if I was lucky). Even the most determined zone writers that are on task 24/7 can't just hammer out thier project in a month or less like they would like. It is very frustrating. I can imagine if I wrote another one, knowing exactly what I was doing this time, it would be 95% waiting game.

What we really need is more admins though. Not enough people are getting deleted or bothered by suspected botting.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:47 pm

Umm... so basically what you're saying is stuff was going into the mud faster, without review, without being proofread (which explains the sheer avalanche of typos I've found in the stuff brought over from HL...), and the cookie-cutter rooms?

Quality is still better than quantity.... even if it takes time to get it.
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:12 pm

OLC helps, Lilira. Typos, proofreading and quality are all independant of the tools.. but OLC can make things easier, and therefore faster.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:36 am

Havent used OLC since .. 1999? 2000? but it just rocked! It made zone creation easy, user friendly, and you could see it in real time without waiting for approval ..

And yeah it still did have to go thru the normal approval process, I think in general we see more typos NOW than a few years ago cause our admins these days are FAR more tolerant than old .. Few trips thru Mosswood makes your head ache with all the typos!
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:28 am

Sarvis wrote:Typos, proofreading and quality are all independant of the tools...


:D
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:09 am

I'm allowed to make typos, I'm sick. :P
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:52 am

Wouldn't hurt also to allow players to create their own houses and stores. Plat sink anyone?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Tasan » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:40 am

As if a plat sink will fix the myriad problems...
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:53 pm

Corth wrote:Wouldn't hurt also to allow players to create their own houses and stores. Plat sink anyone?


RPQ is allowing players to create stores for Ashstone.

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17612
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:06 pm

What's RPQ?
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:22 pm

Walking into this cus I don't know you well enough to know if you're being a smarta$$ or not. :P

Follow the link and read Auril's post.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:49 pm

What link?

And no, I'm not being a smartass... I've just never seen that acronym before.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:20 pm

The link in her previous post...
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:20 pm

Role-Playing Quest

The sphere of imms that handle the mud RP events.

:-)

There's the RPQ BBS Forum where stories/information/discussion is handled, and for updates on when planned RP events are going to happen, see RPnews in game (though I noticed Auril started a news thread on the forum too *cheer*).

The previous link I put up ( http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17612 ) sends you to an RP-ish post I wrote up. Auril added more information about the shop possibilities in Ashstone which is the in-works replacement for Bloodstone.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:19 pm

Sorry to hear you're sick.

RP-Q was basically formulated for live events where a staff member has to be present in order to run things smoothly. They do a lot of things that aren't feasible with the code yet (mainly RP and unique quests - hence the name.)
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:53 pm

Amusingly enough Mori.. check the date on that post... Jan 09, 2006

But thank you for your well wishes, because now, over a year later (wow its been that long?) I'm getting over being sick. Thanks hon. :-)
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:32 pm

It is possible he was talking to me, Lilira... since I whined about being sick a couple posts ago.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:15 am

Its going around. *grin* Hope you're feeling better Sarvis.

In fact.. I hope EVERYONE that is sick with this crap is feeling better.

(covered all her bases now)
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Marthammor
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:32 am

Jaznolg wrote:I don't know how many people used OLC on Homeland, but wow was that sweet and painless. OLC obviously has many benifits. It takes a fraction of the time to dig rooms, write descriptions, create items, and everything else associated with zone writing. But the real major benifit is that you wouldn't need a high level areas god to copyover files on the test mud and all that stupid crap, which takes entirely too long (1-2 weeks, sometimes a month if I was lucky). Even the most determined zone writers that are on task 24/7 can't just hammer out thier project in a month or less like they would like. It is very frustrating. I can imagine if I wrote another one, knowing exactly what I was doing this time, it would be 95% waiting game.


Would just like to point out that when I get updates from writers, they are normally uploaded to testmud within a day or two. OLC, while nice, can't help with the amount of time it takes to review a zone which it usually the second longest part of the whole process next to actually writing the zone.
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Postby Kegor » Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:20 am

Nod. I should have probably said that was around 5-6 years ago before the time of Dugmaren or Marthammor. Cyric was only person to do it back then, and as most of us know, he squeezes mud stuff into a very busy RL schedule when he can.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:35 pm

Marthammor wrote:OLC, while nice, can't help with the amount of time it takes to review a zone which it usually the second longest part of the whole process next to actually writing the zone.


Yeah, especially when you can't get your liaison to actually meet at the time they set 2 times in a row.

OLC will help w/ the time it takes to review because you can make changes on the spot and see what impact they have. No rebooting, no asking other people if it's ok to reboot, no waiting for files to be moved for a day or two. And hopefully no one coming in behind your work and f'ing it up before it gets in(or leaking info to their friends!).
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Marthammor
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:59 pm

Tasan wrote:Yeah, especially when you can't get your liaison to actually meet at the time they set 2 times in a row.


Guilty as charged. I suck at making appointments on time. Anymore, I wait till I can be online and have time to do something before asking the writer if they have the time to do anything.

Tasan wrote:OLC will help w/ the time it takes to review because you can make changes on the spot and see what impact they have. No rebooting, no asking other people if it's ok to reboot, no waiting for files to be moved for a day or two.


I'm not saying I wouldn't love OLC. I used it back when Azder had opened up another mud after one of the many shutdowns. This mud could use a great OLC system. Homeland had a very nice one and we were supposed to be porting it to work with our code base. Unfortunately, there is a great amount of work involved in removing the current OLC and then making the code compatible from Homeland to Toril so its been pushed to the back burner for at least awhile. I'm not even sure if we're still planning on using Homeland's OLC, or if a custom OLC will be written. That is something for Shevarash to decide and post on if he desires.

Tasan wrote: And hopefully no one coming in behind your work and f'ing it up before it gets in(or leaking info to their friends!).


This part should likely be done in private, but as most people likely know you wrote a zone by this point and you continue to bring it up in some fashion seemingly after every post I make, I'm going to address it here.


If I messed things up while trying to correct issues, then I apologize. When I tried contacting you while you were online about issues I found in the zone, you blew me off. I understand why you did and you were well within your right to. I'd be mad too if someone missed two appointments they had set. However, as the zone was 99.9% done, I tried to fix the very few problems I thought there were and get your well done zone into the game for others to enjoy.

As for the leaking info bit, I know there was an areas god seen in the zone with a friend, but there has been no proof that info was leaked. If you had proof, you could have come forward with it and it would have been dealt with.




Now, this likely won't clear anything up between us, but hopefully you'll stop trying to work the issues that happened between us into posts as an attack towards me. Guess that's up to you though.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:44 am

Actually it's more of an attack on the areas sphere as a whole and obviously about it's head. I'm not the only one to have raised questions about the integrity of the people working behind the scenes and their commitment to improving this game. While yes there is always the excuse that it's free to play and people are donating their time, there is still a level of professional courtesy that should be extended. I became frustrated with the process long before you missed the two appointments; they were merely the final straw. After that I was away from the internet for 3 months, returned to find out that info was leaked(even if it was to a single person).

Other people have expressed displeasure with the entire process and have spoken to me at length about the problems inherent in the system. Maybe they don't have the voice to stand up and say something, but I do. I actually do give a rats ass about this place and trying to make it better.

The constant rebuttal to requests for zones in the past has always been "Well the docs are available, write one yourself." It's really a turn-off for people to hear about other people's experiences writing and suffering through a process that alienates the writer from their own work.

This isn't meant to be a personal attack at all, but more of a wake-up call. I think the areas sphere needs to get back on track and if that means having Cyric write up proposals to mirror the information Shev has given us about the 2.0 coding, so be it. There should be a lot more visibility from the FORGER of the areas sphere(I've said this for a long time now), and barring that, at least give the players an idea of projects being worked on or some semblance of a plan for moving forward.

The people that have been left out of the loop so to speak, the people that have been working on projects on their own deserve to be included in the decision-making process and recognized for their contributions. There are still a few people here who care enough to put time into making this place better, but I don't think there is enough being done to coordinate efforts and manage the projects effectively.

Again, don't take this personally.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Marthammor
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:09 pm

Nothing in your last post was taken personally at all. In fact, I thought it was a well thought out post.

If players have reason to suspect that one of the staff members is guilty of leaking information or otherwise failing to try to improve the game, no matter what sphere they are in, then please let the forger of that sphere know.
You, the players, see and hear more things then we, the staff, ever can. We need you to let us know of things going on that prevent you from enjoying the game. Obviously we can't fix everything, nor can we fix things instantly, but if never informed of things, we don't know anything is wrong so we can never attempt to solve the problem.

For people wanting to write a zone, submit your idea! That's where it all starts. Cyric has to approve the idea first, which may take a few days as he tends to be pretty busy with RL job and family. Sure, he'll send you the areadocs and TE (which sucks IMO), or the URL to download them. After that however, if you need help writing something, or figuring out how something works in one of the zone files, talk to us. Shoot us a mmail or an email, or just petition asking if anyone can help you with something.

If you've got a problem with the system that is in place, speak your mind. If you don't want to post it on the bbs for fear of being flamed, use tells, mmail, or email (email addresses are listed under 'help email', although there are a few missing). We don't want it to be a difficult experience. It's hard enough just coming up with room, mob, and object descriptions sometimes.

I'd like to give progress reports on what is going on with the areas sphere. As it stands, and as far as I am aware, there are two zones that are near completion. I can't give a timeframe for when they will come in due to not knowing if something may happen which prevents the writers from being able to finish as fast as they would like. We did have a plan for getting more of the great Homeland zones converted and put in, but as more and more of the Homeland staff left for various reasons, or simply didn't have the time to put into working on getting all the kinks worked out, progress on those projects has nearly, if not totally, halted. I'm not going to say that we will never put any more of the Homeland zones in. We still have two very capable staff members from Homeland that are just tied up with RL right now.

I can only assume that when you speak of people being left out of the loop and working on their own projects, you are talking of the few people that were recruited from outside of the staff to help with converting some of the Homeland zones. I had thought the person/people that had done the recruiting were keeping the others informed of decisions and if any concerns had come up, that they would pass them along.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:56 pm

Marthammor wrote:I can only assume that when you speak of people being left out of the loop and working on their own projects, you are talking of the few people that were recruited from outside of the staff to help with converting some of the Homeland zones. I had thought the person/people that had done the recruiting were keeping the others informed of decisions and if any concerns had come up, that they would pass them along.


This was the way it was going, but more for lack of involvement from higher up on the food chain. It took several days to approve letting someone work on the stuff, and since that move there hasn't been a lot of talk back and forth from what I've heard. People have been busy IRL, but there is still time to give people a head's up on what's going down, what's getting accomplished, how the overall plan is coming together etc. None of that really seems to be getting passed along sphere-wide, more in a person-to-person about what each is contributing thing.

I'm sure the sphere has it's own section of the bbs, why not allow anyone who's interested have access to a group with access to certain sections of that part of the bbs to share projects, ideas and generally keep the motivation level and coordination up to a bare minimum level. You can still keep whatever level of secrecy you need while still involving more people in the process. In this way you don't need to go and grant everyone who wrote anything an imm, but you shorten the loop and hopefully increase awareness and creativity as well as productivity among all the semi-to-very active people working in/with areas.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Postby moritheil » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:00 pm

I'm astonished that this conversation is taking place here.
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Postby Corth » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:49 pm

Hey.. I happen to like the present system. Cyric is kind of mysterious and cryptic and you never know what part of the year he'll show up on the mud. Communication, by the way, is vastly overrated. I mean.. come on, don't be a baby. Submit the files and they'll get ahold of you when they're good and ready!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Gormal » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:02 pm

Its like a lottery!
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:28 am

There is an areas section of the bbs, but I think, and I'm not positive about this, that its lumped in with the other staff forums.
I like your thoughts about making it have its own group so it can be accessable to people outside of the staff who are dealing with areas. I'll chat with shev when I can catch him to see if this is something that can be done.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:43 am

2 months later... anything come about?
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Postby Marthammor » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:48 pm

Rather then making a section on our bbs, there was a google group made and a bunch of information posted to it about one of the larger projects (other then 2.0) going on.
Other then the initial information posted there, nothing has been added mainly due to nothing needing updated and no other projects are currently going on within the areas sphere.

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