What zones are balanced

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Latreg
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What zones are balanced

Postby Latreg » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:29 pm

What zones/fights do you think are balanced? risk/reward wise.

I like Crypts the best, factoring in time/risk/reward but then again there are lots of zones I haven't done in a very long time.
Muspel and short ttf are good too (haven't done full ttf)

Dk vault, that dragon is just too much, we tried it the other night, even had a full group, or maybe 14, and not everyone was level 50 but anyway reward < risk imo.
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Malia
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Postby Malia » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:51 pm

(I think these should be 1-2hour zones or small groupable)
mid lvl zones: TF, SF, jot, muspel, crypts, ohp, lizard marsh, MD, TE

(I think these should be 2-3hr zones and not small grouable)
High lvl zones: Seelie court, Hulburg, Izans, Full TTF

(I think these should be 4-6hour zones and have to be planed)
Epic zones: Magma, IC2, BC

(I think this should be 8-10hr zone)
Epitomie of epic zones: Tia

I think there needs to be zones done on a daily basis, there are 2 ways that the mud survives:

1) lots of zoning activity - the more activity the more players (new and old) you will draw in
2) lots of rp events - These are geared more towards the individual player and are very rich to those individuals

If we dont have daily zoning or at least very consistant zoning this mud will die. Everything thats commin out is longer and harder then the last and the fun zones that are faster are having their eq so dg'd that its not worth doing.

I suggest more zones like Ohp, and lizard marsh, jot, and muspel for daily zoning, and a few more zones like Seelie and izans and full ttf for some more choices when you got that sweet group that just clicks.

No more epic zones with this pbase, we cant even form for the daily ones let alone some of the higher ones.

For Rp events and increase RP i suggest some of the good ole FNAT, on a more regular basis. Every Friday night have a good ole rp event that people can count on thats just good smitting. Orcs from randars invading podvile, Udead from undead farm swarming into BG, Yuan and duergar from CM invadiong CP, just good smitting with some cool rewards.

Something on a regular basis thats not so specialized to an individual would be alot of fun.

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Naled
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Postby Naled » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:05 pm

I think Ross is pretty spot on. I think we should:

Mid Level - these are the most important zones which we want to get done often and should not need full groups. They should all be worth doing in terms of eq!

Crypts: pretty much ok as is, maybe put in 1 (rareload) good item.
SF: I think the endfight and chapel fight might be toned down a little, otherwise ok.
Jot: see crypts.
Muspel: pretty much ok, might want to add some quests to upgrade eq. (eg. 2 diamond necklaces make one better necklace).
Ohp: see crypts.
MD: This zone is not much done which is a shame, might want to tone down some fights.
TE: Might want to remove some fights or remove some grid mobs.
swamps: Pretty much ok.
Lizard march: don't know the zone.
FP/AP: tone down the boss-mobs a bit
Brass: amy fight can use some love eq-wise, otherwise ok.
IC: make it a 30 min zone again.

High level zones: These zones should be doable on a average weekend. They require a semi-full group, but should be able to do within 2-3 hours with a random group.

SC: pretty much ok.
Hulburg: DOn't know the zone
IZans: pretty much ok.
Full TTF: pretty much ok, maybe do something about eq past short TTF.
Spob: might be toned down a bit here and there. This might require some change in the load rates of eq. Zone is ok as is, but length might be a bit on the long side.

Epic Zones: These zones get done once a month or so. You'd need a full group of people who know what they are doing.

Magma: tone down the grid a bit
IC2: can remove some grid fights to get the zone down tyo the desired length. Doesn't really matter if you kill 10 or 5 rhemoraz groups.
BC: Haven't done BC since last changed, but from what I heard it should get back to what it was timewise.

The zone of all zones. Gets done a few times a year. You need almost all the pbase to this zone.

Tia: Should remove a lot of fights to get the time needed halved. Don't let Tia repop twice, and remove the annoying dragon tunnel fights. Just keep the lairs, the mates and Tia. Tone the upper grid down too, but also keep the 2 main fights intact. This way you'll get the same amount of corpses, minus the impossible amount of time spent.

Rare zones/invasions These zones need to get done when they load. They should therefore by definition be zones that fall into the medium to High category.

Smoke invasion is good as is I'd say.
Muspel invasion is too.
Jot invasion needs a lot of work if it will ever get done.


I think a lot of the zones can be improved easily by removing repetivive items. Why have to do the same fight 5 times, it won't be more fun. A lot of the zones can be made shorter without making it less difficult. I mean Tia without all grid fights is still really hard and it will result in roughly the same amount of deaths. It will just remove the time-sinks.
Adriorn Darkcloak
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Balance

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:34 pm

AV (Avelgnus Velgnarn or whatnot)
West Falls
Elder Forest on EM
Meilech Swamps
OHP
Tarsellian Forest
Southern Forest
Crypts
Elemental Glades
The Citadel
Cave City
Bronze Citadel
Brass (even though it was never finished)


Notice how most of these zones are OLD zones, though not all. The problem that many newer zones have, and many have stated this before, like Twyl, is their eq. I love doing Izan's. The ZONE in itself is super well made and extremely fun. But it has too much good eq. Jotunheim is the opposite. Awesome zone, super fun, but now the eq is too crappy. Why? Because many of the newer zones and their eq bombed Jotunheim. A hitter can outfit 1/3 of his eq doing Muspelheim and its invasion. SPOB is a super fun zone with only 3 items as rewards, so, few leaders EVER do it, even though those 3 rewards are among the best. Magma is a 6 hr zone, that depending on what loaded, can yield 3 pieces of eq. In my mind and rl setting, that is not acceptable.

Look at some of the zones Malia mentioned as well, excellent examples of the same concept. OHP is excellent for mid-level groups and fun for the high-levels as well. The concept of many of those old zones can be remade with new zones, and have excellent outcomes. Most of the time, its not necessarily the zone that is flawed, but the eq that comes out of it.
Jot invasion was THE funnest zone to do. Now it's not.
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Postby Malia » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:09 pm

Naled wrote:Crypts: pretty much ok as is, maybe put in 1 (rareload) good item.
SF: I think the endfight and chapel fight might be toned down a little, otherwise ok.
Jot: see crypts.
Muspel: pretty much ok, might want to add some quests to upgrade eq. (eg. 2 diamond necklaces make one better necklace).
Ohp: see crypts.
MD: This zone is not much done which is a shame, might want to tone down some fights.
TE: Might want to remove some fights or remove some grid mobs.
swamps: Pretty much ok.
Lizard march: don't know the zone.
FP/AP: tone down the boss-mobs a bit
Brass: amy fight can use some love eq-wise, otherwise ok.
IC: make it a 30 min zone again.

High level zones: These zones should be doable on a average weekend. They require a semi-full group, but should be able to do within 2-3 hours with a random group.

SC: pretty much ok.
Hulburg: DOn't know the zone
IZans: pretty much ok.
Full TTF: pretty much ok, maybe do something about eq past short TTF.
Spob: might be toned down a bit here and there. This might require some change in the load rates of eq. Zone is ok as is, but length might be a bit on the long side.

Epic Zones: These zones get done once a month or so. You'd need a full group of people who know what they are doing.

Magma: tone down the grid a bit
IC2: can remove some grid fights to get the zone down tyo the desired length. Doesn't really matter if you kill 10 or 5 rhemoraz groups.
BC: Haven't done BC since last changed, but from what I heard it should get back to what it was timewise.

The zone of all zones. Gets done a few times a year. You need almost all the pbase to this zone.

Tia: Should remove a lot of fights to get the time needed halved. Don't let Tia repop twice, and remove the annoying dragon tunnel fights. Just keep the lairs, the mates and Tia. Tone the upper grid down too, but also keep the 2 main fights intact. This way you'll get the same amount of corpses, minus the impossible amount of time spent.

Rare zones/invasions These zones need to get done when they load. They should therefore by definition be zones that fall into the medium to High category.

Smoke invasion is good as is I'd say.
Muspel invasion is too.
Jot invasion needs a lot of work if it will ever get done.


Im gonna disagree with alot of yer dg's naled, most of the zones are fine the way they are. Infact all of yer dg's besides jot invasion and maybe shortening Tia i would be against. These zones are the staple of the mud. We dont need to make the zones easier, 1-2 hour zones are absolutly fine. Seelie court is prolly a perect zone for higher end zone model, and ohp is a great example of a mid lvl zone. TE and SF and all the rest are fine the way they are. They all take 1-2 hours.
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Naled
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Postby Naled » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:23 pm

Malia wrote:Im gonna disagree with alot of yer dg's naled, most of the zones are fine the way they are.
Most downgrades i propose are in time. I don't think zones should be made easier, but I think some of the "in between" fights should be cut out here and there to cut down the length of zones.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:02 pm

Another point, and this has been made before:

There are far too many dragons existing in the game. Many of the fights involving them need to be evaluated based on the changes. Notice I'm not talking about eq.

The MD dracolich fight is a great example of a fight that has basically turned a zone into a rare-hunt only type zone. Before the dragon changes, MD was a fun zone, with decent rewards which could be done in a reasonable amount of time. Since the changes, the dracolich fight has taken 2 good pieces of equipment out of the zone(for all intents), and thus warrants no consideration for leading.

I realize that changes to these fights might take time/effort to figure out a good balance, but the fact is it has been a significant amount of time since the dragon changes, and hardly any of these fights have seen a change.

Apparently there was some tweaking done to the dragon area of clouds, but I can't remember seeing any other posting indicating another dragon+ fight that was changed.

If areas needs a frame of reference, take the dragon in Izan's. This is a dragon that can be done with a group of 15 relatively without casualties. The occasional low hp member might be taken out by a flop/single target. If this dragon was a model for the dracolich, and perhaps a tad tougher it would be a much more doable fight while maintaining some level of difficulty. Lich-proc x2 combined with the 4 different area skills of a dragon results in far too much carnage to warrant doing the fight as is. For that matter, removing one of the liches might prove sufficient as well.

And as I said this is 1 example. I'm sure there are plenty of other situations that need looking at(jabberwock, IC2, Quturac for Finder etc.).
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Postby Bilraex » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:00 am

One of the reasons I stopped playing was zones were getting way too long and those staple really fun small group zones were changed to prevent small groups.

Why IC vault was changed I'll never know, there is nothing uber in there, that was a good fun zone that 6 friends could get together and do, 4 man vault with a spirit tank was a damn good time.

Pretty much agree with Malia and Adriorn, stop building every new zones as the uber 6 hr eq for every slot zone.

And fix the old zones, give them some loving.
Jot used to be one of the best zones, than it turned into only being checked for rares/invasion, now from what I understand nobody goes there.
Brass! Brass needs to be finished.

All in all, we need the small commando group zones back.
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Postby Sarell » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:15 am

I think Tiamat is cool. Really well designed, Great fights all the way through. Maybe a bit too much gear actually (tho I still want a good item dammit, but there is a lot of great stuff that went straight to the dead orc!). Tia herself still needs some ironing. Doing the same long fight 3 times, using runs to avoid deathproc drain, is kinda boring.

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TF is my favourite zone. I love to plow through it in a traditional manner and I love ninjaing it aswell. The risk/time VS reward for doing either balances perfectly without having to implement any stupid procs/stuff. The zone design is perfect. Even has the non swampy stuff to do with smaller groups and was a good place to exp before Ship/DS stupidness happened.

Bronze Citadel we will not get back down to those stupidly quick times we did. The last few rounds of changes have been excellent. The only one to go is to make it when you open the gate from the inside, it is actually open on the outside aswell so you can get corpses out without having to drag 100 rooms. As it stands it is MUCH faster to res before you go in which halts your pace and is kinda boring.

Zones need to be balanced against eachother however. SPoB items, bleh. I agree with Adriorn entirely.
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