Concerns of a low/mid illusionist

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Malvareth
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Concerns of a low/mid illusionist

Postby Malvareth » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:42 pm

Just some things I've been noticing while leveling up, and wanted to address:

Damage spells don't seem to be balanced very well in regards to their circles. Shadow Bolt is way better than Blackthorns (which is utter crap), and slightly worse than Spook. Spook is comparable or slightly better in damage than Shadow Magic, with the bonus chance of stun and noticeably faster cast/more mems. In other words, my experience says that nuke usefulness is in this order, best to worst:
Spook (4th), Shadow Bolt (1st), Shadow Magic (5th), Blackthorns (2nd)
Definitely doesn't seem balanced when the 1st circle nuke is better than 2nd, and 4th circle is better than the 5th. Suggested changes:
- Improve Blackthorns by either making it a bolt-type spell that increases in quantity with levels up to 3 or 4 bolts at level xx, or giving it a non-damage side effect.
- Do something, anything, about Shadow Magic. The damage is poor, the casting time is slow and there's no extra benefit like the stun component of Spook. Furthermore, globe seems to eat the spell when it's disguised as Shocking Grasp.

Displacement seems a bit odd as well. It appears to just nullify x amounts of attacks from an opponent instead of avoiding a hit that would land, which means that it rarely lasts more than a few rounds against anything with double attack or better. I believe a defensive skill attempt (dodge, parry, riposte, shield block etc.) should be possible before checking for displacement, and if successful, the defender shouldn't lose a "hit" on their displacement buff. I was grouped with various tanks yesterday and their displacements expired faster than I could memorize them, against one mob at a time. I also suspect that the following problem exists, although I could be wrong: A tank can't increase defensive skills while displaced. I'm just guessing here but the way the code seems to work, if a mob is always missing a tank because a spell prevents it from hitting, that tank won't get to make his defensive skill checks and thus won't notch.

Shade pets and dopplegangers will occasionally stop following for no apparent reason. Once in a while my summoned shade just ceases all actions and refuses orders, forcing me to abandon it and summon a new. Dopplegangers sometimes just stop and stand around, not because the duration ends (upon which they disappear) but possibly because they run out of movement points. If that's the case, it makes no sense and they should be given infinite movement or walk at no cost.

Shade pets can be paralyzed by things like carrion crawler poison. I think a line from the shade's desc will suffice to explain my point:
A dark shade wrote:The being is made entirely of shifting gray mists.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:20 pm

with regard to nukes, I generally agree with your conclusions based upon my own observations. On the other hand, overall, I always thought the class was well balanced relative to other classes. I don't think its necessary for nuke effectiveness to increase in every circle if the class is balanced overall.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Malvareth
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Postby Malvareth » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:25 pm

It just seems fairly pointless to have those nukes if they're actually worse than the previous circle's. Currently, when soloing or grouping, I practically only use 1st, 4th and 6th level spells with the occasional invis or armor spell (which almost every spellcasting class can provide). There's a blatant imbalance in the usefulness of the different circles, in my opinion, except for the odd utility spell that you cast a few times a day.
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Postby Corth » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:44 pm

Well you can't say the weaker nukes are completely pointless. They are extra ammunition, albeit not quite as good as the other stuff. But I definately see your point. Its much more efficient when leveling to stick with the better nukes. But on the other hand, sometimes you need just a little bit more to kill the mob, and then shadow magic or even blackthorns can come in handy.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Lilira
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Postby Lilira » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:30 pm

Isn't Spook supposed to be more of a stunning spell than full blasting?

Admittedly, my illu is only 19th...
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:59 pm

It's just phantasmal killer and tendrils that basically define their damage. It is a shame that you have to be lvl 41 just to taste power, but illusionists are pretty twinky at high levels as it is. Stunning mobs w/o agg'g them is pretty spiffy too. But they are even weaker as a class than enchanters imho, til lvl 41
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Postby Malia » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:39 pm

I think the illu class is very balanced weaker at lower lvls and rewards are at higher lvls. While some spells seem to be lacking, finding their usefulness might show you where the power of that spell lies.

Spook is one of the illus most useful spells and can make or break a fight if used properly and its only 4th circle.

Displace is used in countless zones and imo is greater then scales. Not being hit for 1-3 rounds with displace is better then getting pummeled by mobs that can hit for 1k a round. It also is nice because some one might die in 1 round vs a tank having the time to rescue him.

I think you need to explore the usefulness of your spells and explore some of the upper lvls of the illusionist class. Illusiionist is one of my favorite classes besides rogue and enchanter.

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Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:53 am

The traditional balance scheme of mages here is basically "totally worthless at low levels; totally awesome at high levels."

I won't go into the other spells as I don't play illu, but displace is arguably the best defensive spell there is. There's a reason it's ~10th circle for bards.

Explore your spells in a group environment against the challenges of zoning (as opposed to just exping) and I think you will see that there are reasons behind many of these powers and limitations.
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Birile
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Postby Birile » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:01 pm

Regarding shadow bolt outweighing blackthorns: when you get 5 bolts from the shadow bolt of course it will be more effective. That's the nature of these missile spells (shadow bolt, magic missile, earth darts, sticks to snakes, yadda yadda)--they get better with time. Blackthorns stays the same and is, IMHO, utter crap and not worth the time it takes to mem unless as Corth said, you just need that extra bit of damage at the end of a fight to end things. I'm fairly certain that all other mage classes with these missile spells have the same issue. If you consider that shadow bolt doesn't reach full effectiveness until what, level 15(?), it makes sense that it would then be more effective than your 2nd and 3rd circle nukes. It's a gift, blackthorns isn't a detriment. I'm not too concerned about it.

And yeah, shadow magic blows. Spook is such a useful spell for the quick cast time and high stun chance. Woo! The best illusionists know this spell's power and use it VERY well!

As for displacement--as Moritheil stated, it's one of the best defensive spells in the game. It's not going to be as strong for you in your mid- to upper-20s as it will be when you're in your 40s or 50s. It lasts longer at those levels and just plain rocks.

Have to agree with the pets problem. They need to fix the moves issue with them. (Hope the Imms are listening!)

As for those various and sundry utility spells which you eluded to, it's important to note that many of them are what define the Illusionist class. They're wonderful spells once you know how and why to use them!

Keep at it, the pain and suffering you endure now will be well worth it in your 40s!
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Postby Drahken » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:02 pm

Illusionist can be a real pain during the levels you mentioned as a lot of the spells really don't apply well to xp for the illusionist. To me it was a bit of a trade off. The mid-level game was difficult but 40-50 was easier than any other mage class I've played, and for me was a really enjoyable experience. I actually had a lot of fun going from 40-50 and didn't feel like I was grinding my brains out like with a lot of other classes.

Stick with it Mal and things will only improve! Its a sweet class - hand down my favorite.
Malvareth
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Postby Malvareth » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:19 pm

Well I finally got Shadechill, and it seems to at least be somewhat better than the previous spells. I was dreading the thought of using Spook as my main damage source until level 41...

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