Zone Love

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Marix
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Postby Marix » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:22 am

Also, Auction is near worthless as motivation for doing zones. Not many people are going to be going nuts and spending loads of cash for an amulet of discord on Auction. However if having an amulet of discord was part of a larger set that you could then trade in for a really great item, you'd find more people bidding on it, as well as asking to do the lower end zones. This applies to much of the equipment out there. Just my thoughts on the matter
Yarash
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Postby Yarash » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:04 am

Shevarash wrote:So, what zones are broken/unbalanced and desperately in need of some love?

Shevarash wrote:There's some good feedback here, but I have to ask...is that it?

I thought that the fewer people that are unhappy, the better? :)

I do have a few comments of my own though.

A'Quarthus Velg'Larn - This place is often twinked by high lv players. I'm not sure what to do about it.

air plane - No bugs or anything, but it has too little treasure.

md - I really like this zone, especially when myrranth (sp?) was leading it. But as I understand, a lot of the area is not done. I think maybe this is because there isn't much treasure in some spots of the zone. I'm guessing the lich/dracolich rewards might not be desirable enough.

spob - I like the idea of making tokens rentable. Games are supposed to be fun, and it is very, very unfun when the game crashes and the zone loot is lost. (Of course the underlying problem is the crashes, but this would help.)
Disoputlip
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:05 am

Something I think is missing is more Faerun material.

Something unique to this mud is how closely bound to forgotten realms it is. You can take a map of faerun and more or less find your way.

I think that is awesome, but wish there was a little better geography in certain places. Especially Cormyr is a little too little. I know you can't expect creation sphere to make everything, but if anyone lack ideas why not make a town like Arabel, instead of making a zonage zone?

Just a thought.
Lilira
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Postby Lilira » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:08 pm

Finishing up some of the unfinished quests in zones that are already implemented.

exa: GN.. the drow quest and Kralgars are both.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:13 pm

Disoputlip wrote:Something I think is missing is more Faerun material.


There is more coming... can't really say when, but it's coming.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'

Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'

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Ifin
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Postby Ifin » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:20 am

I wish more high end zones were like ChP, where they can fail either because of time or something (ie mobs reach a certain room before you do, some mob/object dies/destroyed before you save it, or alarm sounds so zone gets harder if you take too long or maybe zone gets less rewards the longer you take b/c mobs are able to save them).

I think that would put some more excitement and challenge in zones if there is a chance of failure instead of just grinding it out, be a way of slowing eq progression into the realm legitimately and distinguish leaders from people who lead.

Even in other MMORPGs you can completely fail an "instance"/zone. Here it's just clock-work, sometimes it might take a bit longer, but 99.999% of the time it's pure success with full rewards.

If you're racing against *something* or have to pay attention in a zone so you don't kill a mob on accident or do something that nullifies the rewards, then I think people will pay more attention and try to "win" against the zone instead of just expecting the rewards.

(ie storm bracelet, instead of it being an extremely low % load maybe you have to clear grid in x time and give the object to y mob and then complete zone in z time and then it'll always load... you up chance of spank by having to rush but then only the best groups will get the best rewards)
Adriorn Darkcloak
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:52 am

Randar's Quest: axe/falchion could use some proc goodness, nothing major.

Brass: Finish it.

EM: Delete those insane roads for now, add them when something goes in.

Bryn: Delete Eastway, same as above.

Minthka: needs newbie quest perhaps.

Ako: needs newbie quest perhaps.

Most importantly:

UM: finish it for the love of god. Sword quests have been gone for too long/always.

Disoputlip wrote:Something I think is missing is more Faerun material.


*cough*Shadowdale*cough*

As a side note, perhaps you should go through the quests in Baldur's Gate, Scornubel, Calimport and Zhentil Keep. Many of those quests have insane starting points/keywords. I can think of 3 mobs right now in those cities that have quests that have crazy ways of starting them or that the mobs ask for ridiculously phrased things. 1 of them I've never figured out, not sure if anyone has. Perhaps it's just me.

Also, look into quests (player mentioned?) where mobs ask for things like: "bring me a nice helmet". Riiiight. I think others have mentioned this.
Last edited by Adriorn Darkcloak on Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Marthammor
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:37 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Bryn: Delete Eastway, same as above.


The Eastway will be getting used "soon". Easthaven is about 99% done and is undergoing testing and proc work atm.
Ardessa Moonblade
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Postby Ardessa Moonblade » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:26 pm

Ice Crag Castle really needs to be altered. The rhemos in the vault are just a little too tough, the unavoidable death proc is a bit absurd. Most leaders aren't willing to do this zone because it's not balanced enough.

The simplest thing would be to up the rewards a little. Someone already recommended another 5 ac and 28 hp for the shroud. I seem to remember that it used to be +max_int back in the day, and was really disappointed when I found out it wasn't. Why not change the blued steel eq as well? Make only one or the other load, and make it a little nicer (+5-8 hp instead of - sv_sp would be good). That way, people might want to wear those greaves and vambraces again.

Change the Malice rewards too. Simplest thing to do would be to add 5-10 hp to the amulet of discord, and change the belt of iron bands. Maybe up one of the stats to +13, then add +8-10 hp on the other slot.

FP and AP are obvious zones to tinker with, because it is hard to gather that many people to do something with only 2-3 items available, especially since they're so key in quests. How about adding 1 nice caster type item, and 1 hitter type item? They don't have to be super high-end, it's just nice to have something else to bid for.

It would definitely be nice to fill in the City of Brass. It's rather silly to have so much empty space without anything there to quest or smite. It would also be good to upgrade some of the gear from Jot to make it desirable again (I'm sure everyone can remember when Frosty and Mistweave were 8d4 and quite cool, maybe up them back a bit). A few more quests would be cool, could be a really good way to get rid of surplus equipment.

Mostly though, thank you for all the hard work you all put in. We appreciate it.
Kegor
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Postby Kegor » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:26 am

1) Make at least 5 more 1-5% rares all over the mud in every single zone.

2) Balance the zones to a standard specific time/difficulty setting for each classification of high (2-3 hours), middle (1-2 hours), and low (< 1 hour) level zone.

3) Balance the eq for said newley classified and modified diffuclty zones.

4) Add more zones regularly under the new construction guidlines.

After more thought on the matter, balancing eq doesn't do much good without a more standardized zone format. At least as far as time and difficulty go. Variety is excellent, but time and difficulty variances are not.

I think if we go through these 4 steps of change effectively, you will have your zone balance. Under this system, the only reason one zone might get done more than another would be one zone being older and more repetative for a larger amount of players that have done it a good number of times. The only answer for that is to modify existing zone content from time to time and/or add more zones of equal value, both time/difficulty and item stats/rewards.

There is presently a few zones in the game that could be easily modified to be used, where as they are not being used ever right now for whatever reason. There is also a lot of zones nearly completed that have been that way for many years. Why not complete them?

If you would like assistance in any way shape or form of these ideas mentioned above, or any other good ones you plan to act on, I would love to help out and be an areas grunt, as would many other players that have a great deal of zone and eq stat knowledge. So use that.
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Postby Kegor » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:40 am

Just a little thing that always bugged me. Clean up the credits list and make it look decent. Get rid of the word "The" and delete the "XP" grids. Delete the Shaman Quest out of the spirit world (yes we all know what it's for, like you would tell us what every other zone is for). Delete newbie tutorials and other zones that are less than 30 rooms from credits list.

It also wouldn't hurt to make a number of zones more easy to identify in correspondence to the zone name as it appears on the credits list. Aknowlaging credibility is a nice thing. It seems to me that would be the purpose of the credits list. But it could be intended for a way to keep score for the staff on who has written more zones over the years. The latter would seem to be the case at the present time.
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Postby Yarash » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:19 am

Lilira wrote:Finishing up some of the unfinished quests in zones that are already implemented.

Yea, I think I was poking around east of bgr (between bgr and md), which seems to have some sort of large-scale quest, and someone was saying how that quest was broken or unfinished. Maybe someone could verify this?

Also, I think I remember hearing someone say that Brass is a zone that is only half implemented.

- Mike
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Postby Birile » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:19 pm

Marix wrote:Also, Auction is near worthless as motivation for doing zones. Not many people are going to be going nuts and spending loads of cash for an amulet of discord on Auction. However if having an amulet of discord was part of a larger set that you could then trade in for a really great item, you'd find more people bidding on it, as well as asking to do the lower end zones. This applies to much of the equipment out there. Just my thoughts on the matter


Um, completely disagree.

Why?

Because lowly crap items like this are used in quests (and yes, what you're describing as being a good idea is just another word for QUEST--with all due respect) all the time. Come on, you don't see groups rushing to do TF of IC Vault every boot now, why the heck do you think it would change if we made MORE cruddy items quest items??? It's just not going to work.
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Postby Birile » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:40 pm

Shev...

While we're working our tails off to give you ideas of what is wrong with some of these zones, perhaps you could give us an update of which thoughts/ideas you've read that you're going to try to do something about?

If we can see that you guys are working on specific things then maybe we won't b*tch about them so much and it will also encourage us to be more involved in pointing out potential issues with zones to make Toril a better place.

Telling us, "Yeah, great ideas, we're working on some of them (insert any other vague Imm response here)" just serves to piss us off and get more frustrated at you when a month down the line we don't see anything come to fruition... You really can do something to keep that from happening.

Tit for tat, we help you, you help us, etc.
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:02 pm

I don't get the combative attitude. I asked for feedback, I'm working on addressing some of it, and when there's something to talk about I'll post it.

Again, thank you for the feedback. It will be put to good use.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
Birile
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Postby Birile » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:33 pm

Shevarash wrote:I don't get the combative attitude.


I wasn't being combative, I was actually trying to be helpful to both you and the players. Sorry you misunderstood, I guess it's difficult to convey tone with the written word.
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:48 pm

Fair enough; no harm done.

For what it's worth, most of the information collected in this thread will be put to good use in zone makeovers for 2.0. However, I've got some surprises in store that will go in much sooner.
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Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:06 pm

Most of the posts in this thread have been on item balance. I'm not going to post another extensive list of what zone's items belong where in terms of stats. I'm not even going to offer specific suggestions. It has been done enough as this post will demonstrate. A stronger policy that addresses long term item longevity needs to take effect.

Zones need to continue to be designed that are less arduous or more fun. New zones are doing this very well, we are headed in the right direction for sure. Older zones were still fun too. These zones need to be revisited for a number of reasons; exp, items, reminiscing. Exp can be factored into zone balance and fixing through Toril 2.0 implementation of a new trophy or experience system or the combination of the two. Valuable items need to be in every zone. This may be in the form of rares, regrading a single item to be valuable, consumables including components, quest items, potions, scrolls and trade goods. Zones for old times sake is still alive and well.

I do not support the modification of zone design where the zone is not specifically broken. To use an analogy, I would not rewrite a work of classic literature so that it used more common phrasing or was reduced in content for a new audience. These changes do not provide long term solutions to problems with zone balance.

In the same vein, re-evaluating singular items or specific zones is not always the answer. As Kiryan points out, in our mud economy people are after the best item. A new single item can completely change how an entire zone functions in the game. To reduce this impact we need sensible limitations in item design and their fluidity within the mud economy. The items I see as being the most broken are those that are superior in a variety of areas. For example items that have the best statistics in three areas such as armor class, hitpoints and saving throws. Items that narrow selection of a range of other items also affect this intricate balance such as items that have prot-all. These instantly can render five other items redundant. I am not against prot-all items, however the ones that also have the best other stats so the character loses nothing by using them can be a problem. What we need ultimately is consideration of all items in the game when introducing new items and zones.

Zones that throw everything out of kilter are a reoccurring theme in most posts on balance. Risk, reward, difficulty, time and balance are all terms that come around when discussing these zones. The most predominant complaints against a zone come when the zone offers multiple equipment redundancies, in the form of multiple best items for a variety of slots and classes. In turn multiple zone redundancies. When you make a zone redundant, you should provide a solution for that at the same time.

I strongly support a qualitative approach to zone balance. I think this thought out and author specific statement illuminates it as best as anyone could, 'Touk group-says 'point calcer = fucking gay''.



Here is a few of my posts on zones, changes and zone balance for this incarnation of Toril. I have posted the title of the topic the post was in, a link to the topic, then my thought on why I posted the link, this may be as a quote or summary.

Giantkind
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#172012
"I'm with Kiryan, zones need to be twinked to bring them into line with old jot, the funnest zone ever, not the other way around."

What zones are balanced
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#166078
Various peoples' ideas on zone balance.

SPOB
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#164521
On SpoB (TNZ) zone. There are a few important posts on this zone specifically as it really changed the way people attained, and thought about how, high end gear was distributed.

DS (Duergar Sanctuary)
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=164069
A topic looking at CM for exp purposes. A solid indicator of my posts about exp in relation to zone balance since 2000 circa Toril mailing list began when it was announced the mud was returning. While Toril 2.0 will feature a new exp system, this highlights the need to make it non instance specific.

Clouds
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#162708
Kiryan on zone longevity, "clouds was the new CC, challenging with good rewards and potential to spank even the best groups.... that was until spobenheim/new eq calcr ruined it.... and that was before dragon changes further undermined the risk vs reward."

Kern Quest
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#161854
High level boss mobs and quest mobs should yield exp rewards.

Group Caps VS New High End Zones
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#160948
We need more zones that let large cohorts smite, in shorter times. Even revitalise older zones by using the group cap code from tia to force smaller groups for higher rewards or larger groups for utmost fun.

Dissapointment with General Direction of Mud
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#160256
A long post by Mikar on zones, with a few good responses.

Long Zones and Competition
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#160255
Style of gameplay in zones.

Latest Magma Run (Second time done since dragon changes)
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#159748
Magma, zone longevity, player input, gear, dragons, all that good stuff.

areas/game design, group sizes
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#156336
Small zones, low item counts in a comparison to MMORPG.

CC
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#150877
It's on CC, Diamondine.

Jot Invasion
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#150879
Long zones, the EQ calc and the 'standard set of gear'.

Old Quests on New Giant Mud
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#150231
Some older quests need to be re thought out, especially ones that give skills.

What would YOU want from an XP zones?
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#150221
The title and response says it all.

Is this a friggin joke?
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#141455
Izan's Flying Fortress.

Object Changes, Round 3?
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#141237
How stat equipment is affected by the new roller and may be affected in Toril 2.0

New High AC Gear
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#129709
Mage AC out the wazzoo has to go.

Dynamic Loads and Gear Points
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#129676
The post-calc zones.

Zones
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#125555
What do people like in zones?

Singed Electrum Rings
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#116367
Why are mid level items hosed?


Downgrade SPOB
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#116181
4 pages on SPoB, something's up.

Scorp Earring
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#112969
A good comparison on hitter earrings and questing VS zones. Items being changed completely for area gods characters rather than upgraded or downgraded.

Equipment Changes
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#111982
Some good comparisons of items between zones.

Zone checkpoint for crashes
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#107998
How to fix SPoB crash problem without making it a halfway point.

spob
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#107804
Another extensive discussion on the zone that changed so much.

Jot Tree
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ht=#104853
The 'new' tree. How it came in, how it got defeated and made boring, why it is still the same.

Downgrade this stuff
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ght=#89349
Most of the stats have changed, so this topic certainly illustrates why we need a solution with more longevity than the timesink of stat balancing per zone.

Gear, Risk VS Reward, Area Restrictions
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ght=#88550
Some great posts about inter zone balance by some of the greats.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeease!!!
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ght=#50128
The time Muma had a good idea.

Areas/Quests which need fixing
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0
Some of these from a 2002 thread still do, others don't exist anymore, a strong illustration of a global fix policy requirement.

Equipment limits need to be reworked
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ght=#50140
Expanding stat values so to achieve more diversity in equipment statistics.

roots belt, platemail of life, mages, downgrading small zone
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ght=#81701
a passionate thread about items that are now defunct

Jot Changes
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ght=#11465
Some good ideas about the first jot changes that still apply to changing zones. Keep it in mind.

Ebony Longsword VS GCD
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... ght=#73132
The side note is the important bit. Why does my gear give so much more hit/dam than my sword?

Please downgrade this zones EQ
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... highlight=
People frantic about the overpowered 15hp head item before gear changes sought to lower mage hitpoints :| Is the the old spob? How times change.
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Lilen
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Postby Lilen » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:36 pm

I disagree with posts about izans needing downgraded. the zone is good how it stands just because we rock dosnt mean it should be downgraded. Meliech is fine how it stands as well from my point of view. The zones that need lovin are as follows:

Magma: With the Leetness of how much we rock with nerox leading tia in under 8 hours and magma taking around 6 brings up issues of how much eq loads in magma. Some great stuff is from there but u go there banking on getting more than 3 items. I mean u can add 2 hours and get tia loot. way more items and better. Magma items should either load more or something. Less rares. I am still wondering whats gunna happpen with the hole tia thing i believe it should stay as stands just because Nerox broke the game dosnt mean it should change. coulda just been a rockin group and lead.

ChP:As far as ive heard there is a trick to the zone so it should be left as is because its a challenge. Assuming there is a trck besides trying to fight tia size waves of demons with 15 people after getting rocked by 2 other waves. The challenge is what makes it fun. Will post more once i can think of more.
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Vhaeraun
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Postby Vhaeraun » Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:45 pm

Jhorr wrote:The issue of zone length would be solved if 2.0 could implement some way of saving the zone mid-way. In fact, it could open up a whole new type of zone where a group could actually go on a CAMPAIGN that might take a week to do, for example. Add a save feature, that preserves zones if the game crashes or reboots and we'll have much more options for zone architecture and playability.


You would need some sort of instancing for that to work. Else someone could steal it, and/or it would create problems where you could block a zone completely from being done for a week etc.

However, I have some code I have written, that used smartly by designers could make a "campaign zone", where you have progress saved on a character, and then you'd need people at the same stage to "jump a portal", or "talk to person Y to teleport you for Z". Lets see if anything could be used for that in the future.

Jhorr wrote:How many people know someone that has quit this game just because 'zoning just takes too long'?


Partly the reason why I haven't played much the last few years. Too busy RL.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:23 am

Lilen wrote:Magma: With the Leetness of how much we rock with nerox leading tia in under 8 hours and magma taking around 6 brings up issues of how much eq loads in magma. Some great stuff is from there but u go there banking on getting more than 3 items. I mean u can add 2 hours and get tia loot. way more items and better. Magma items should either load more or something. Less rares. I am still wondering whats gunna happpen with the hole tia thing i believe it should stay as stands just because Nerox broke the game dosnt mean it should change. coulda just been a rockin group and lead.


I think it more brings up how much eq loads in Tia.
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MD

Postby Gukov » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Set MD to not repop while people are in it and I bet it'd get done a lil more often. This is a zone I've only done once ever and would like to see people more willing to hit up.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:03 pm

Finish MD and UM. I never played D&D but the UM book was a great book where they met Halaster or whatever the dude's name is at the end. I thought MD had a ton of potential until I actually searched the whole place and found a somewhat boring zone. Making stuff rentable is always good because of how random crashes are. Sometimes not so random.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Jhorr » Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:10 am

Vhaeraun wrote:
Jhorr wrote:The issue of zone length would be solved if 2.0 could implement some way of saving the zone mid-way. In fact, it could open up a whole new type of zone where a group could actually go on a CAMPAIGN that might take a week to do, for example. Add a save feature, that preserves zones if the game crashes or reboots and we'll have much more options for zone architecture and playability.


You would need some sort of instancing for that to work. Else someone could steal it, and/or it would create problems where you could block a zone completely from being done for a week etc.

However, I have some code I have written, that used smartly by designers could make a "campaign zone", where you have progress saved on a character, and then you'd need people at the same stage to "jump a portal", or "talk to person Y to teleport you for Z". Lets see if anything could be used for that in the future.

Jhorr wrote:How many people know someone that has quit this game just because 'zoning just takes too long'?


Partly the reason why I haven't played much the last few years. Too busy RL.


Glad we see eye-to-eye on this issue. I'm sure the coding won't be easy (and I'm no coder) but where there's a will, there's a way....
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Postby grundar » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:47 am

delete golem forge or at least turn off its ansi!

nuke half of nerox's eq

and... omfg a vhaeraun!!!!!

seriously though, dont bring halfway done zones into the mud with quests/rares that are not even in yet is a good way to start. seriously restrict zones that have top tier eq like golem forge which loads a lot, i'm all for a zone having leet gear.. but hell having several pieces does suck for balance sake. low load rates on zones that have a ton of top tier eq is a decent temporary bandage.
dunno if its fixed but i heard somewhere that the longer you wait during a certain zone's invasion the more equipment will load. fix this.

i disagree that expgrids should be removed. they are crap i know this but hey whenever i want to portal up to the north i shoot for icy wasteland and the same goes for cp so they at least have their use in that

in order to spruce up hometowns have more bitchy mobs like gromph baenre around... people that screwed around in homeland know what i'm talking about. those kinds of things bring life into otherwise dull places. and on the same note, mobs that are supposed to be knowledgeable in fr lore should spew it out as relating to the mud. to give a crude example: elminster chatting about adventure locales such as undermountain, some stuff like this is already in.... feh i lost my train of thought.. oh well

as for evermeet, we have only ourselves to blame for it being as empty as it is. the way i heard it there were quite a few zones in the making however pissing off the area writer screwed that up. go mudders! :s
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Postby Tasan » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:05 am

Wrong. EM never should have had roads put in, the fact that they had to try to "appease" someone working for them by allowing the change is rediculous. The entire concept of EM is backwards as hell. EM isn't a large island and now it literally takes more moves to run between EG and drulak than it takes to get from WD to BG. The roads of EM were one of the absolute worst content "additions" I've ever witnessed. Regardless if 50 more zones were put there, you still have far too much walking to do to get to places and if you notice, the only people who walk are new players. Do we really want them spending 3 hours walking around to learn where 2 zones are instead of spending that 3 hours actually doing something productive?
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Roots

Postby Wargo » Wed May 02, 2007 6:17 pm

I would like to advocate for some love for Roots.

This was and probably still is one of the most unique zones in Sojourn/Toril. The fact that this is a potentially 1 hour adventure or a 4 hour CR nightmare was what made this zone FUN. I can't recall the countless of times when a group of 3-4 survivors trying to hold down the fort while people try to rush back in to help out. Adding to the fact that the zone is filled with 1-way rooms and like 15-20 minute pops, it created some majorly frustrating fun. I think one of the reasons that people don't do this zone anymore is because the sapphire belt was nerfed (forgive my ignorance if this had been fixed).

Similarly, Air Plane and Fire Plane are in the same boat with roots where they can be done relatively quickly but has major spank potentials. The reason why people don't like to do them is due to risk/reward. I believe these classic zones need to be re-energized with 1-2 pieces of top end gears to make them competitive with new zones.

Roots was rewarding because the belt was 1 of 2 top end caster belts, depending on user preference, and also highly coveted by warriors because of the +str and +hp.

Flaming/Lightning Earrings were the top end earrings for +dam and -sv breath when preferred over diamondine.

The point is: these zones were being done regardless of how unrewarding they were to the majority of the group members because of that 1 piece of top-notch gear. People kept going back even if they knew they would not get anything out of the trip simply because eventually it would be their turn to get it.

Of course, people would always to choose to do zones like Jot for the sheer number of loots available to split. However, being able to own one of these prized items brought prestige and bragging rights to the people who have them and make the have-nots wanting to keep coming back until getting them. Now, if you consider how often these zones were done back then (usually not until 24+ hours into the boot), people would be coming back for a long LONG time. Talk about player-retention.

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Postby Sarell » Thu May 03, 2007 7:14 am

I think TTF blood earring hit fire/air pretty hard. That earring seems to be much easier to get a hold of. Fire and air do still get done occasionally however. I'd make elvenkind hidden so we can't just check if it loaded before we do the zone. But let someone know in the news or people will just stop doing it.
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Postby Birile » Thu May 03, 2007 2:43 pm

Sarell wrote:I think TTF blood earring hit fire/air pretty hard. That earring seems to be much easier to get a hold of. Fire and air do still get done occasionally however. I'd make elvenkind hidden so we can't just check if it loaded before we do the zone. But let someone know in the news or people will just stop doing it.


2nded.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu May 03, 2007 9:39 pm

Personally I don't see the horrible in a rare beeing checked before we do a zone.

We can check if pepper load if we want to do Airship Vault.

Why not make it possible to check natures revenge before we do magma. The result would be more people would do magma, but only once in a while.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu May 03, 2007 10:48 pm

Not sure how others feel but plane zones lack volume of eq. If someone thinks it's too easy to do the zone, and we all know how fun it is to hurry up and LURE *yawn*, then add more mobs or something - lighting earring sux ass as it is. The DG didn't make sense. As for magma, I've never been. I avoid long ass zones cuz of family time with the little guy. *envy* those who can spend that length of time in large zones :P
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Postby Sarell » Sat May 05, 2007 3:09 am

I think the planes have a good amount of items. A couple of really nice items for pretty short zones. I don't think more items anywhere is what we need really.
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Postby Kegor » Sat May 05, 2007 9:01 am

Thilindel wrote:Not sure how others feel but plane zones lack volume of eq. If someone thinks it's too easy to do the zone, and we all know how fun it is to hurry up and LURE *yawn*, then add more mobs or something - lighting earring sux ass as it is. The DG didn't make sense. As for magma, I've never been. I avoid long ass zones cuz of family time with the little guy. *envy* those who can spend that length of time in large zones :P


Yep. They lack flavor bigtime. Need more rares and need the regular load endzone items to be on par with rest of the zones and eq of equal time and difficulty level.

Hurry up and put earth plane in from homeland too. That zone is cool. Might wanna add the rest of the planes too. If you want, I could write one and be finished with it by next weekend, if converting the homeland ones takes too long. :)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat May 05, 2007 2:31 pm

Jaznolg wrote:
Thilindel wrote:Not sure how others feel but plane zones lack volume of eq. If someone thinks it's too easy to do the zone, and we all know how fun it is to hurry up and LURE *yawn*, then add more mobs or something - lighting earring sux ass as it is. The DG didn't make sense. As for magma, I've never been. I avoid long ass zones cuz of family time with the little guy. *envy* those who can spend that length of time in large zones :P


Yep. They lack flavor bigtime. Need more rares and need the regular load endzone items to be on par with rest of the zones and eq of equal time and difficulty level.

Hurry up and put earth plane in from homeland too. That zone is cool. Might wanna add the rest of the planes too. If you want, I could write one and be finished with it by next weekend, if converting the homeland ones takes too long. :)


Why just earth? Do Earth, Water, and Shadow!
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Postby Birile » Sat May 05, 2007 2:44 pm

So could we then do "Earth, Wind and Fire" runs?

:lol:

*duck*
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Postby Malia » Sun May 06, 2007 12:14 am

I know this was mentioned in other threads as well, but its on my mind since Jot invasion is currently up

I think jot is one of the greatest zones done, you can do part and get eq, its got quests, you can do all of it... its got an invasion (cringe) its an epic zone one of the best ever made.

People used to come of the woodwork to do jot invasion it used to be one of the highlights of any torilite!

Currently, the way jot invasion is, no one wants to do it, this is jot, this is one of the best zones and its been just ruined... the intention was good, and the dificulty of the zone shoulda been increased a tad but not changed from a 3-4hour zone to a 8-10 hour zone that no one wants to do.

Like i said its up currently is why i was thinking of it again, its a zone that really needs to get looked at.
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Postby Kegor » Mon May 07, 2007 7:06 am

I gotta agree completely. Jot invasion should not be crazy hard like that. I think the difficulty was perfect the way it was. Somewhat time consuming, but not too life threatening for a group of 15, etc. The sad significance and appeal of invasions I think is the rare factor involved with the eq attained. Having a cool theme and lots of mobs to kill is definately cool too.

I have heard many times now that people would prefer doing Tiamat to Jot invasion, because at least then you get a bunch of better eq for the time and difficulty.

I have heard similar things on the topic of Hulburg as well. Beholders definately need to be looked at yet again. They were a lot more fun and reasonable to do battle with the way they were before. Nobody likes being spamkilled in a zone that already took plenty long enough in the first place.

For all current and future zone writers, I would like to remind you that time is an issue that has to be considered as well as difficulty. There needs to be some standard here so that things don't get to the point where people don't want to do them ever. Magma I would even say crosses that line a bit. But then again I have never done that one once yet since it went in (hmm why is that?) so I guess I shouldn't comment.
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Postby Marthammor » Mon May 07, 2007 1:05 pm

Has anyone even attempted jot invasion since the run on oct 15th? I downgraded things after that run, but never heard from anyone about the difficulty after that.
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Postby Malia » Tue May 08, 2007 1:02 pm

Dont think anyone knew it had been changed or toned down to attempt it. Was it posted anywhere that it was toned down?
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue May 08, 2007 1:13 pm

06/29/06 [Marthammor] Giants and Invasions, Oh My!
- Feedback from players about the invasion of a certain zone has led it to be
changed once more. Enjoy!



That probably.
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Postby Marthammor » Tue May 08, 2007 1:34 pm

Wasn't a news entry, but someone had started a thread about the run on oct 15th. At the bottom of the thread I posted that I had adjusted things to hopefully make it a little easier and less time consuming.
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Postby Ifin » Thu May 10, 2007 3:49 am

Maybe if imms also allow Jot Invasion to be reset if it crashed for it to be attempted again. I know of no other recent zone that's wasted so many hours due to zone bugs, and w/all these changes who knows if it'll crash when attempted again.

Add to the fact that it's not a normal loading zone then it just really sucks.

The grid looks the same though. I could've sworn I scouted it after that news entry, and all I recall are a ton of single mobs scattered throughout the grid.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu May 10, 2007 7:26 am

There may have been a brief time where the changes were reverted to an earlier state while a crash bug in one of the areas files was being tracked down.

I'm not saying that there aren't still a lot of single mobs wandering the grids, because there are, but the amount of single mobs were reduced and groups of them added. The overall effect is actually less mobs on the grids and less single boring pulls. I can always add more groups of varying sizes on the grids and cut down on the number of single pulls, but I'd like some feedback on the way it is currently set up first. I know thats hard to do being a rare load an all. I'll see if I can work something out to maybe ask for a group of 15 volunteers to run through on testmud.
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Postby Malia » Thu May 10, 2007 1:02 pm

I think that part of the problem is due to so many shouters, that you have to kill EVERY mob on the grid, i mean if you had to do that in muspel omg... it would take forever. Id prefer large groups like muspel and take the shouting off the mobs, fight your way to leader, clear around and smite. Clearning the whole grid is silly and a waste of time. We arent just talking bout 1 shouting mob, there are several that basicly 1 shouts for soldiers 1 shouts for beards 1 shouts for scouts. The fight on volcano needs to be looked at too. That fight is harder then the several of the last fights through out the zone. I think it needs to be toned down, between shouting and that fight i think jot invasion might be fun again!
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Postby Mirlantharn » Tue May 29, 2007 6:34 am

Dusk Road, way out east. Other than one zone (Stronghold, or whatever it's name was, just east from the town of Hill's Edge.) added in the past year and a half (or so...) the entire zone out there and along Skull Road is kinda... bare. Not much point of ever adventuring out that way, really. I thought there was a lot more to Faerun in that direction.

-Mirlantharn

PS. There used to be a reason for lvl 25 to 40 players to travel all the way out to Hill's Edge, namely exp. What it needs is a little more exp-centric flavor to the areas, not exactly mindless exp though.


PPS. Shevarash: Could we, for the love of all that is blue and liquid, have more ships to places? Even if some of them transverse the exact same route as those already in game, but dock at different parts within the harbor.
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Postby Malia » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:58 am

Just a note that Jot invasion is up again this boot and no one really wants to do it as it sits. I think its comming up on 1yr aniversary since last attempt at jot invasion. Sad to see the best invasion in the game reduced to this state =(

My suggestion is remove shouting so you dont spend 6 hours of killing pointless mobs just to get to main fights. leave !teleport devices and then people still have to walk grids to get to eq fights. Mobs still come to combat like old jot, with the number of beards and soldiers and mercs on grids would be fun to walk a group through that. but to go to EVERY room and smite EVERY mob takes forever. Merc captain that shouts for mercs, Glammad that shouts for beards, and the guy inside that shouts for soldiers is just silly!
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Postby Malia » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:14 am

Sweet not even 1 reply since last post. But, Jot invasion wasnt done last time its loaded its been up all 65 hours this boot and no one wants to do it the way it is. Really sad to see one of the best instances in the game so totaly ruined that no one even wants to attempt it or do it. Can someone PLEASE look into this... read back i gave some suggestions to help.
Dugmaren mutters in a surly voice 'Got any new strategy or going to continue with the "throw bodies at them til they get bored"? '



Dranth group-says 'i started drinkin when i found out galzar would be here'



Nerox says 'careful she goes from 0 to bitch in .00000001 seconds'



Mugo ASSOC:: 'ah got it on my gaytimer now :P'
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:55 am

Just because there isn't a reply does not mean things haven't been noticed and noted.
I have seen the suggestions and taken notes on them, and until tonight I haven't had time to bounce ideas off other people.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:01 am

I agree... and also, can we please take a look at the policy of strictly no-resetting a zone? It's kinda off topic, but let's just say Jot Invasion was attempted this boot and it crashed again a few hours in... man that sucks.

It'd be nice to have some **preventive** policies in place instead of just saying this is the way things always been... well, no, b/c some of the best content just don't get done anymore.

I'd say strictly Tia, BC, IC2, Magma, SPOB, Jot Invasion. Seriously, when was the last time any of those are done, and if it crashes and imms say "too bad"... it just doesn't do anything for players when that happens.

Oh another side note - how about making Jot Invasion questable. W/the pbase and if it's going to be 4-5 hours, it's going to be almost impossible to do w/o it being a planned zone.

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