A Godless Toril

[Birile]

So for the past two weeks I've noticed a general lack of Immortals gracing our presence in the game and I have got to say, it's rather frustrating.

There is a general sense that the Immortals have lulled into a state of apathy here in Toril with a few exceptions who try to at least respond to players on the bbs or in-game (the RP staff, for one, seems rather active which is very nice :) ).

But I have to say, no good undertaking can be successful without someone leading it. And while everyone knows that some Immortals are behind the scenes doing things as their personal lives see fit... there's still a lack of Immortals showing their face in-game to give people a sense that the Immortals care.

One wonders (or, at least, I wonder) a few things:

1) Why isn't there some sort of schedule where Immortals are expected to log into the game and show themselves visibly to the mortals and make themselves available at these specific times? Yes, I know Immortals are doing this for free and they're volunteering their time and they all have personal lives... etc. etc. ad nauseum. My response is: "And?" "So?" could be substituted, as well. Becoming an Immortal is a responsibility, not a privilege or simply a sign of prestige. Fill the shoes of the title if you're going to seek it.

2) Why is it that at any given time, while no Immortals may be visible, there may be one somewhere invisible behind the scenes--a fact that only sending a random petition could help discern (assuming said invisible deity decides to respond)? Yes, I know, when Immortals log onto Toril it's generally to get some productive work done and the whole "distraction" of a mortal trying to get your help on something can take away from your production time. Again, so? You're an Immortal, be there for your people! You think other deities hide from their people just because it's an inconvenience?

3) Can an administrator please do something other than yell at people for misusing the LFG? I mean, honestly. I'm tired of seeing a certain Immortal yell at people for small slights on the LFG and then take part in profane conversations over the OOC at the same time. I had a great conversation with Auril concerning some ideas to cut down on Immortal badgering and mortal LFG misuse about a month ago--has this been discussed in whatever Immortal gatherings you guys have? Don't get me wrong, I think the LFG is misused by some people. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if the channel is being used for something other than its intended purpose that there is a gap in services (ie. some sort of other channel) missing to fill that role!

4) With all due respect (and coming from me, that's a LOT of respect), if you're an Immortal at whatever level and you are finding your personal life is taking up far too much time for you to be able to adequately see to your duties as an Immortal then you should really consider finding someone else to take over some of those duties in the interim. There comes a time when you have to set pride aside and just let someone take up the slack either temporarily or permanently (based on your individual situation). If you have no time to handle the duties of an Immortal (yes, I know, it's voluntary, unpaid, etc.--see #1) then you are doing the mortals here a very big disservice by not handing off the duties to someone else, even if just for a little while.

5) Why aren't there any serious pushes to openly recruit new Immortals? Yes, it's nice to say "If you want to change things or help out, submit an application" but what's better than "nice" is to post a sticky in the Announcements section stating this. Include details on what sort of information is expected to be included on an application. And when you hire a new volunteer Immortal, post it in that thread and have everyone welcome the newcomer. Keep people excited about that sort of thing! It'll encourage recruitment.

6) With the new logo placed in Cmud you're wasting an opportunity to retain new players by not having some higher-ups around to show that there is a group of people at the high end who are actively taking care of the players. It's not the only reason people don't stick around, but it's probably one of them.

Most of these suggestions are just simple good management techniques. If anyone sees this as a personal slight against them, it's not, but consider that if you think I'm talking specifically to you that maybe you're one of the ones who could benefit from heeding some of the things in this post. There should really be more Immortals around who have a passion for their jobs--and show it--the way the RP staff and others like Marthammor seem have.

[Shar]

You make very valid points Birile. I can say with honesty that these concerns are shared from the Staff pov as well. We have discussed all of these subjects (most *not* in a formal meeting but rather in small groups at a time) and more subjects like them, and most of the staff have expressed the same concerns either to me specifically or to their direct superior who has issued the information back to me. We all relate.

I realize you didn't post anything above simply to be validated by a staff member, but since at this moment we have no "solid" answers but rather soft ideas loaded with good intent, you get validation instead of a brush off of answers that aren't true. You are right. About it all.

Others feel the same way you do. *All* of the active staff do. We anxiously await the time when things are physically able to be changed. I don't want to dole out solutions to huge glaring problems only to have them either not work out or be put on hold again, but I will say that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. We have amassed a pretty good think tank for changes. There will be big scale changes in how the Admin Sphere works when 2.0 comes in, and before then there will be several other minor changes that will affect those players who need help during a minimum of certain peak hours, etc.

How channels function will be set up differently in the future. Auril (as you mentioned your conversation(s) with her) is a great advocate/ mouthpiece of and for the players and comes up with great ideas on a consistent basis of how to improve not only game play, but the behind-the-scenes functionality of how the staff interact with everyone else. Several of the specific issues about channel abuse she and I have spoken of directly will be handled in a manner that is far less invasive for the average player, making it a lot more enjoyable to just be at the keys and not have to see all that useless drivel.

For now, we are seem to be plodding along the same path with the same pov on the same matters of importance. The hard part is twofold. How do we prioritize such meaningful issues? and, when can we affectively change our OWN behavior to fit inside the "new" scope? These are not just questions for the staff, but rather for anyone who spends any amount of time here. These are tough days for anyone who loves the game, as clearly you do Birile. I won't give excuses because frankly, they would be just that. I claim responsibility for the degeneration of the staff/ player interaction and the unfriendly way others are continually forced to witness it. When I started here years ago, I felt a certain pride in my own 2c. Since then, not only has my 2c worth changed, but my attitude has changed as well. While I'm still truly optimistic about how to cope and deal with everything, I'm also extremely realistic when it comes to getting those dealings done. Things have to work at a snails pace some times... heck, most times, just to get ANYthing done. It frustrates me (and most others who are idea people) to no end. We have the know-how and the want-to. We just don't have the able-to... yet.

Thank you for your concerns. I say that sincerely. I know you were not pinpointing anyone specifically and I understand that your post is based off of your own connection to Toril and its way of "life" and your caring. It is so refreshing. I feel like I wrote a long winded post that resolves nothing and just wound up giving you pap instead of solid gristle, and I'm not sure that pap is what anyone needs right now, least of all people who seem to get it... but it is something, isn't it.

Everyone keep their chin up :) It might be hard but it will be worth it.

[Ragorn]

Make Corth an admin. Then you'll have someone visible all day long, and you'll get the same level of response we get now :D

I tease because I <3.

[amolol]

i haver a suggestion, why not appoint an admin who's sole duty is to be online for the players who need things like broken mobs, newbie questions, help the mud booted and im nekid with 1 hp and i screwed??, and general fielding of questions and concerns. evenm if the answer to the question be i am unsure of the answer to the question but you could e-mail god@whaterver.com for a more suitable answer.

this would save alot of player concern at the moment and make admin life a little esier with not having to worry about what players have what issues that will take away from my productivity time today.

[Tanji Smanji]

Make Corth an admin. Then you'll have someone visible all day long, and you'll get the same level of response we get now :D

I tease because I <3.

rofl, thats just fucked up Rags.

Hell, even though I've been gone for years I still check these boards every day and am looking forward to 2.0 if/when it arrives. I may even start playing again because I just cant get into any of these new games. They lack something that Sojourn, EQ and AO had, a sense of community and a world you wanted to be a part of.

[Ragorn]

There are no other games I've played and quit whose forums I still lurk. Sojourn/Toril, though I haven't actively played in over five years, still holds an allure that no other game has ever been able to match. I tease and make naughty statements because I remember the frustration I experienced at some of the issues that players still face (absent gods being one of them). But since my active play days, I've also learned to accept Toril for what it is. Maybe that's why I'm more drawn to Toril than other games... Toril for me is what it is, I don't approach it with this ideal of "what it should be" and "how I can make it better" and "it would kick ass if."

More off-topic ramblings. You kids get off my lawn.

[Corth]

I'm starting to feel that way too Ragorn. In order to get there though you have to give up any hope that those who are supposed to be in charge will actually be willing or able to improve things. Once you realize that, its a lot easier to appreciate/accept the mud for what it is.

[Ragorn]

It's a lot easier to appreciate Toril for what it is when you stop focusing on what you want Toril to BECOME.

[Shevarash]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't been around the last few weeks because I literally had no time. On top of an already grueling IT job, myself and all of the other developers here had to attend a technical night class for 2 weeks, and I just literally had no time/energy for anything else.

That's over now, and you can expect to see me around more often - I don't know if you consider that a good thing or not, but there you go.

[moritheil]

I think Birile has hit the nail on the head. At the same time I'm very sympathetic to the staff, because they really do this for free and there isn't that sort of "punch the clock" atmosphere (at least as far as I can discern) regarding their activities. I don't know if there is any sort of central authority they can swiftly and efficiently report their impending absences to, either. (They could email the forgers, but the forgers themselves might not be able to be on for a while. I don't think there is a Dispatch department, if you will.)

So, in addition to Ombudsman, we need to consider a Dispatch position? :P

[Inames]

1) Why isn't there some sort of schedule where Immortals are expected to log into the game and show themselves visibly to the mortals and make themselves available at these specific times? Yes, I know Immortals are doing this for free and they're volunteering their time and they all have personal lives... etc. etc. ad nauseum. My response is: "And?" "So?" could be substituted, as well. Becoming an Immortal is a responsibility, not a privilege or simply a sign of prestige. Fill the shoes of the title if you're going to seek it.

i agree that there should be times in the day where at least 1 god is required to be on, mayb e in the peak of the pbase, which ive noticed is around 7-8pm est 8 being the peak but 7 having nearly 3 times the people on as there were at 6.

2) Why is it that at any given time, while no Immortals may be visible, there may be one somewhere invisible behind the scenes--a fact that only sending a random petition could help discern (assuming said invisible deity decides to respond)? Yes, I know, when Immortals log onto Toril it's generally to get some productive work done and the whole "distraction" of a mortal trying to get your help on something can take away from your production time. Again, so? You're an Immortal, be there for your people! You think other deities hide from their people just because it's an inconvenience?

again i agree, the gods shouldnt hide to avoid being distracted from what they *may* be doing. they shouldnt be expected to respond imediately if they are doing something but they should not hide and make a player think there is no one on to answer their questions(and in turn not ask it) when it could be a very valid question that could be very enlightening to both said player and immortal alike.

3) Can an administrator please do something other than yell at people for misusing the LFG? I mean, honestly. I'm tired of seeing a certain Immortal yell at people for small slights on the LFG and then take part in profane conversations over the OOC at the same time. I had a great conversation with Auril concerning some ideas to cut down on Immortal badgering and mortal LFG misuse about a month ago--has this been discussed in whatever Immortal gatherings you guys have? Don't get me wrong, I think the LFG is misused by some people. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if the channel is being used for something other than its intended purpose that there is a gap in services (ie. some sort of other channel) missing to fill that role!

yet another valid point, when i started playing oghma was all over everything that did not have "looking for" "forming for" or "xp" in it. but i have not seen him on in several months for some reason... lately talona has taken up his place as being the LFG god. and even the imm's misuse the lfg just saying to stop, isnt there a command the imm's have that let them say in big bright colors things like "reboot in 5 minutes"? they should use that rather than add to the misuse of said channels. and i also agree that adding a channel for public use concerning the MUD and only the MUD would stop 90% of lfg abuse. but i think the last time that came up on GCC they said, "we have more pressing matter to attend to, creating another channel would be a waste of time when you can use tells say's shouts and acc" or something to that extent, but using say tell acc and shout are hardly public like lfg. so that was a wasted response that did not even come close to being a valid answer for why they dont make another chat channel.

4) With all due respect (and coming from me, that's a LOT of respect), if you're an Immortal at whatever level and you are finding your personal life is taking up far too much time for you to be able to adequately see to your duties as an Immortal then you should really consider finding someone else to take over some of those duties in the interim. There comes a time when you have to set pride aside and just let someone take up the slack either temporarily or permanently (based on your individual situation). If you have no time to handle the duties of an Immortal (yes, I know, it's voluntary, unpaid, etc.--see #1) then you are doing the mortals here a very big disservice by not handing off the duties to someone else, even if just for a little while.

GOD DANG, birile you rock, keep the good points coming. if you are an imm and you cant or just dont have the time to keep up with your responsibilities, why not pass the responsibility to someone else who has the time? then you can just sit back relax and enjoy the game like everyone else when you have a few hours to spare.

5) Why aren't there any serious pushes to openly recruit new Immortals? Yes, it's nice to say "If you want to change things or help out, submit an application" but what's better than "nice" is to post a sticky in the Announcements section stating this. Include details on what sort of information is expected to be included on an application. And when you hire a new volunteer Immortal, post it in that thread and have everyone welcome the newcomer. Keep people excited about that sort of thing! It'll encourage recruitment.

oh i wish there was some immortal recruiting going, i would personally love to become an imm on toril because i love the game, i learn more every day either by zoning and learning about the world or xping andleaving how to use my class, becoming an imm i think i would be able to help the MUD alot, but if i had to choose to take the position or pass on it, id probably pass if someone like lilithelle or teba were offered the spot... there are alot of people i know that could make a big difference as immortals. i see several new characters on each day but whether they are actually new people or just someone making a new alt, i dont usually see them again, i think they get turned away when they dont see ANY staff on at all throughout the day.

6) With the new logo placed in Cmud you're wasting an opportunity to retain new players by not having some higher-ups around to show that there is a group of people at the high end who are actively taking care of the players. It's not the only reason people don't stick around, but it's probably one of them.

alot of what i said in response to 5 covers this, the icon that was won for Z/Cmud has probably been the thing that sucked in alot of new players, but i dont see many on more than once... there has to be a reason other than they dont like it, this MUD is so much easier to learn/play than half of the others ive tried, no other MUD ive tried has many if any half-decent or useful helpfiles. they usually say "heres the rules that we dont enforce, go figure everything out without learning so much as how to move 1 room in the world"

i really think you hit the spot really well on this birile, they are good points, ones i think should really be looked into. i think you will have made a big difference just posting this

and i agree with mori in the feeling sympathetic to the staff, they do what they do for free in thier spare time, but when they use their spare time to work on things for the MUD they get too serious about it and generally put off their relations with the players.

i said my oppinion on the matters and i feel i am right about most everything i have said, if you dont agree with me please dont flame me or think less of me, im just trying to be helpful by giving my feedback.

[Inames]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't been around the last few weeks because I literally had no time. On top of an already grueling IT job, myself and all of the other developers here had to attend a technical night class for 2 weeks, and I just literally had no time/energy for anything else.

That's over now, and you can expect to see me around more often - I don't know if you consider that a good thing or not, but there you go.

that is a very valid reason to not be able to be around, just another reason i think looking into recruiting more staff help would be a great thing to do, but that is entirely outa my control so all i can do i put in my feedback and let you guys decide what you think is best :)

BTW, toril 2.0 is looking good, i cant wait till it comes out, i think its gonna rock, good work shev and all the staff who are doing things to get it to us sooner. :D

[Dalar]

It's a lot easier to appreciate Toril for what it is when you stop focusing on what you want Toril to BECOME.

Yep.

[Botef]

[moritheil]

i agree that there should be times in the day where at least 1 god is required to be on, mayb e in the peak of the pbase, which ive noticed is around 7-8pm est 8 being the peak but 7 having nearly 3 times the people on as there were at 6.

I don't really think it's feasible to require that people be on. Adminship can't be given out to just anybody, so there's a very small pool of people to draw from. Requiring that people punch the clock like a job will simply cut down on the number of people in that pool willing to be admins. I suppose it would be worth it if it would help motivate people who are already admins and do have the time . . . but I don't think that there's anyone who is an admin, has more spare time than they're putting in here, and just doesn't feel like logging in.

Feel free to prove me wrong :D

and i agree with mori in the feeling sympathetic to the staff, they do what they do for free in thier spare time, but when they use their spare time to work on things for the MUD they get too serious about it and generally put off their relations with the players.

That is an interesting point. I think what Rags said goes for Imms as well as players.