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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:31 pm

Jaznolg wrote:Would you condsider allowing 2 character multi-play as a temporary 'bandage' for the current situation and disallow it again when 2.0 is implimented?


No, sorry. I explained why already in this thread so I'm not going to do it again.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:34 pm

Jaznolg wrote:Again, even as just a temporary bandages, little things of this nature add up to keeping players interested in new fixes to old issues until such time they are fully addressed with the new release.


Good point, and thank you for phrasing it logically and constructively.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:08 pm

Malvareth wrote:
Shevarash wrote:I would be doing all of you a disservice if I sacrificed the ideals of this MUD to stop one person from leaving. If you read this thread it's pretty clear that most players do not agree with this idea. Are you suggesting that the responsible course of action is to change basic tenets of the MUD on a whim, to satisfy a few people that threaten to leave?


I think it's long, long overdue. You and everybody else can see the results of your stoically sticking to your ideals. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but I see it as nothing but the truth.


Ok. You started this thread to say that you are leaving unless we allow multiplay. I said that that is not an option due to the fact that I believe that multiplay would be harmful to this MUD. THAT is my ideal - not doing things that are bad for the MUD in general just to appease a minority of the people.

So, again, I believe that multiplay would be bad for this MUD. Please peruse this thread to see my thoughts and those of your fellow players for further explanation of why I believe this. I am totally open to discussing other things we can change to make your playing experience more enjoyable.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:15 pm

Corth wrote:Its a little bit dangerous to essentially say the current version of the mud is unsupported while not giving much of a definite time frame for when the new version will be released. Your telling people to buzz off until you say come back. But will they come back?

Its worth putting in just a little bit of time to remedy the situation of exp for non zonable chars. A band-aid until 2.0 comes out is all they need. I agree with Shev about multi, but I disagree that nothing can be done until 2.0 is released.


I didn't say the current version was unsupported, and if I implied it it was in error. The problem we run into is the multiple interdependencies between new features of the MUD. Most of the new things in 2.0 are dependent on one another - in other words, it's not a collection of fixes but a entirely new architecture, and it can't just be copy/pasted around. So to make the same change in the current version of the MUD requires completely new coding which we know is going to get discarded soon, and that's why new development on the current MUD is such an unattractive prospect.

Now, that said - I agree with you. If there are some band-aids we can toss on that make people's lives easier, it's worth doing. I can't do something like copy the 2.0 exp system into the MUD by itself, but I can throw a band-aid in to make the current exp tables easier. That's just an example of course.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:57 pm

Birile wrote:First, I'd like to say that I think the idea of two-character multi is stupid and would just kill the MUD faster than Shevarash's hand-sitting.


Starting your post off with the "hand-sitting" comment really wasn't neccessary. Maybe you didn't intend it as such, but I found it to be insulting and it almost made me disregard the rest of your post as a consequence. I'm not pointing this out to start an argument, I just want to help improve our communication.

Birile wrote:Something that Tasan said (and none of it was any more inflammatory than what Shevarash responded with) is exactly what I've said before, and so have several others: saying that an issue will be fixed in 2.0 is not fair and it's really just an excuse for not getting on an issue now. Look at how long 2.0 has taken so far, Shev. Then consider how much more time you will have to spend to finish it. And be realistic when you think about how long it'll take, because I can guarantee you had no idea it would take over two years and look where we are now. Now ask yourself if you really--really--think it's fair to ask all of us to continue to wait for you to finish 2.0. Hell, you can't even update the BBS like you've been promising for months.


You're almost right. Saying something will be fixed in 2.0 is not an excuse not to fix it now, it's an admission that I've already fixed it in the next version. As I explained in the post above, fixing it in both places requires completely different code - code that will get thrown away as soon as 2.0 is ready. And most of these issues are FAR more complex than just adding a line of code here or there - oft times we're talking about huge swaths of MUD code that have been completely replaced to accommodate the new features. Surely you can see why making these changes in multiple versions is counterproductive.

However, you're correct that there are other band-aid measures that we can make on the current MUD, and the time that it's taken to get 2.0 in is long enough to justify such changes.


Birile wrote:You are so damned lucky to have people like Marthammor and Eilistraee handling some issues, because otherwise absolutely nothing would have been done to change anything on this MUD in the last two years.


You are absolutely correct. The presence of those two and many other invaluable staff members is part of the reason why I decided it was safe for me to redirect my attention to 2.0.

Birile wrote:There are a whole slew of problems that need fixing on this MUD--and there is no reason why you can't have someone working on fixing them while you work on 2.0.


You're right, with the caveat that sweeping code changes are not practical in the current version of the MUD, as I explained above.

Birile wrote:We're donkeys following after the ever-elusive carrot (2.0). That's simply cruel, and actually a little inhumane. I stand by what I said in another post: mentioning 2.0 was coming was one of the biggest mistakes ever. I simply find it astounding that it's only the players here would have the insight to see it's true.


I worked on 2.0 for a good 8 months or so before I posted a word about it, believe me - I understand the danger of getting into that donkey-carrot mentality. I'm certainly paying for it now. However, I felt like it just had to get announced at the time because 1) I thought it would be done sooner and 2) I didn't think it was fair to let everyone continue operating under the assumption that the code sphere was dormant and not working on any new content. It was a difficult decision, and you can make a case for either approach. It's spilt milk in any case.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:00 pm

So, just to sum up:

1) The Forgers believe that allowing multiplay would be detrimental to the MUD, and thus it is not an option at this time.

2) There are other band-aid type adjustments that can be made to the current MUD, and I will solicit ideas for those on this board shortly.

Thank you for all for your feedback.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:46 pm

Shevarash wrote:So, just to sum up:

1) The Forgers believe that allowing multiplay would be detrimental to the MUD, and thus it is not an option at this time.

2) There are other band-aid type adjustments that can be made to the current MUD, and I will solicit ideas for those on this board shortly.

Thank you for all for your feedback.


Lower spell memtimes for lower levels and lighten group exp restrictions.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:53 pm

i dont think it's possible to make this game easier on the solo player unless they were to all roll elementalists or necros, and even then they have to slog t hrough 11-26 levels before the real soloing starts

and that's pretty much what we're after right now in this thread - making th is game more solo accessible due to the lack of groups for people that are not or can not zone.

one of the biggest obstacles to this is dying. many people are afraid to explore or try new things because of the cr from places like GN or BG (or hyssk..sweet jebus). or they simply go out of their way to make sure they never die - taking no risks and making gameplay stale on themselves

possibly allowing a starting-location change would alleviate that little problem. binding i think it's called elsewhere - bind yourself to an inn, and whenever you die or word of recall that's whre you end up. make it a one time deal, or on a looong ass re-use timer (like a real life week) to hinder abuse


another thing is to put +hit on a lot more gear that's useable by all classes. there's very little +hit gear for any of the mages, and even 15 hit means w hiffing like mad vs something that cons 'do you feel lucky'?



but again, i dont see how anything will ever be done. we have a very vocal playerbase that likes the game like it is right now, and anything proposed to make it easier that will inevitably make it easier on everyoen at all levels they arent going to go for, and will shoot down


good luck with this shev. i think multiplay would have been the easiest bandaid with the least amount of work, and those that seem to have a religious hatred of it even as a short term temporary measure to be removed when 2.0 goes live are an example of the kind of resistance i would expect any new idea that makes the game easier to be confronted with
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Postby Ghimok » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:10 pm

My bandaid list:

Low level (1-30)
- Dramatically increase "THAC0" on all classes from level 1-20. This helps newbie casters actually hit mobs because their spells are basically worthless until approximately level 16.
- Lower exp tables by 25%
- Halve mem/pray times on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th circle spells.
- Make mobs less than level 20 not regenerate hit points at all, or slow their regen rate by half
- Make players less than level 30 regenerate hitpoints and movement points 1.5x as fast as normal and make it so if sleeping they regen at 3x the current rate.
- Pcorpses of players under level 30 take twice as long to rot

Mid level (31-40)
- This is more of a content related situation not easy to bandaid fix, but
- Lower exp tables by 15%

High Level (41-50)
- Cut resfx time in half
- Lower exp tables by 10%

There are thousands of other things that could be improved in the game obviously, but would require massive amounts of coding and content creational effort (ie put it off untl 2.0).

I'm not the world's greatest coder by any means, but from my understanding of CircleMUD code stock the above mentioned bandaids would take someone who understands MUD code and can write in C or C++ approximately 20 minutes to write and maybe 3 hours to test. So with Toril's spaghetti string code held together by duct tape and old chewing gum I'd estimagic the above changes to take approximately 40 hours of coding and testing time. Well worth the effort I'd say if it could help stave off player frustrations until the major overhaul (2.0) can be completed.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:04 pm

Shevarash wrote:That said, I know you mean well and I will try to take points as they were intended. I'd appreciate a little more civility in return.


Birile was inflammatory. I was passionate.

I was going for M.L. King, not Malcolm X.

Sorry if I missed the mark.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:36 pm

Tasan wrote:Birile was inflammatory.


Does that mean I was hot? Or simply on fire? Either way, thanks for the compliment. :D
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Postby Kifle » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:25 pm

Birile wrote:
Tasan wrote:Birile was inflammatory.


Does that mean I was hot? Or simply on fire? Either way, thanks for the compliment. :D


I think it means that it burns when you urinate. I apologize for that.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:36 pm

Kifle wrote:
Birile wrote:
Tasan wrote:Birile was inflammatory.


Does that mean I was hot? Or simply on fire? Either way, thanks for the compliment. :D


I think it means that it burns when you urinate. I apologize for that.


Hey now, I got that taken care of...
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:49 pm

Kifle wrote:
Birile wrote:
Tasan wrote:Birile was inflammatory.


Does that mean I was hot? Or simply on fire? Either way, thanks for the compliment. :D


I think it means that it burns when you urinate. I apologize for that.


burninate?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby sotana » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:31 am

LOL just to clarify, when I said I loved the exploring, mapping, dying alone part, I was actually talking about....well, alone. :P Not grouped, not guilded, knowing very few folks, without a full set of handouts and just a few years ago. (Incidentally, yes Xaril is my brother but, sadly, he quit mudding right after I started...is there a message for me in there somewhere?) It was a blast and still is when I get the time to mud. I didn't do it to prepare for zoning, heck I wasn't even sure what zoning was for a long time. I did it because it was fun in its own right and I loved (then and still do now) playing my class and seeing what I could do. I realize it's not for everyone but, for some folks, it is a very valuable part of their mud experience and worth noting and allowing the newbies to discover for themselves.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:45 am

Dalar wrote:
Kifle wrote:
Birile wrote:
Tasan wrote:Birile was inflammatory.


Does that mean I was hot? Or simply on fire? Either way, thanks for the compliment. :D


I think it means that it burns when you urinate. I apologize for that.


burninate?


So when trogdar burninated the countryside, he was really just pissing out gonorrhea on everybody?
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Postby Tasan » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:10 am

sotana wrote:I did it because it was fun in its own right and I loved (then and still do now) playing my class and seeing what I could do. I realize it's not for everyone but, for some folks, it is a very valuable part of their mud experience and worth noting and allowing the newbies to discover for themselves.


Not everyone can be a druid.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:59 am

Malvareth wrote:
Shevarash wrote:A MUD full of multiplay bots is not something I would want to play as a new player.


But you have no new players.


Didn't you just say that we have no player retention? Those are two very different things. Shev's point is that even if we had lots of new players checking the place out, if the retention rate is 0 it doesn't help either.

Malv, it's not that people are opposed to your ideas because they're yours, but there are some things that can change and some things that can't change. Shev is just trying to explain which things are which.

Malvareth wrote:
sotana wrote:Let them discover the mud for themselves just like we all did!


Practically impossible to do alone as a solo character. You may have had the privilege of actual regular grouping, a bunch of friends and acquaintances, and possibly even an active guild. This game is extremely deadly, and while it's one of its selling points when the game is running optimally, it places a large portion of the game's content out of the average newbie's reach when they're by themselves. They'll have enough difficulties even getting to a level where exploration isn't complete suicide.


No, you need a willingness to die. She had it, and she had fun exploring solo.
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Postby sotana » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:17 pm

Tasan wrote:
sotana wrote:I did it because it was fun in its own right and I loved (then and still do now) playing my class and seeing what I could do. I realize it's not for everyone but, for some folks, it is a very valuable part of their mud experience and worth noting and allowing the newbies to discover for themselves.


Not everyone can be a druid.


And a good thing too! Wouldn't be fair to the mobs, you know.

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