Areas/quest fixes in general

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Areas/quest fixes in general

Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:00 am

Exactly what is the holdup with this? I've made a small zone before and doing any type of fix to it during production was quick and easy. It's as easy as reading code. I've heard of other zones being delayed because they are "under review". I really hope it's not the same person reviewing new zones as the person who reviewed FK. The only trouble I ever had was actually finding Dugmaren which was maybe a day or two in delay.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:05 pm

We're undergoing a change in how we edit and move files around. Only half of the system is in place, so getting changes to mainmud is still up to mainly one person until the other half of the system is in place.
As for zones being delayed because of being under review, I only know of two new zones since FK came in. The first one, the writer simply got busy irl and never finished up and the second one is in its final stages (ie: needs last review and some proc work). The holidays have kind of slowed everything down as people are busy with enjoying time with their friends and family.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:53 am

In a word: Cyric.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:20 pm

Gormal wrote:In a word: Cyric.


Pretty much. I'm going back to the acceptance phase where I finally realize nothing is going to change yet again and quit because of all the timesinks that haven't been fixed since the last time I quit.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:45 pm

It's not all Cyric.
Shev is the one doing the new versioning system we're using now, and he's been busy with the holidays.
And of course I'll admit I'm getting slow and lazier the longer I stick around, so I'm to blame as well.

As to what is taking so long with the FK issues, its a matter of me talking with the area writer and seeing what they want to do, and then doing it. Me or someone else with the ability, to load it on test and see if the changes broke anything else, then getting it moved to main.
I know I could always just make changes and push to get them moved in sometime in the next month, but I'm a believer of trying to work with the original writer if the zone is fairly new and getting the kinks worked out rather then just making changes willy nilly.

The BGR quest issues that were brought up is also going to take some time. That whole area is undergoing some major construction and trying to make changes to one part of the area without inadvertently moving in something that isn't ready is rather difficult. The project has taken longer then planned, but it is still progressing. Once its finished, at least on testmud, we can go through and bump up the stats of the rewards and change quest messages to reflect new location of items that may have been moved in the past.


As for the CM stuff.. I've told a few people that I'm pretty much waiting on 2.0 to come in before I mess with it too much. A lot of the fights will become easier due to how mob hps and dam dice will be standardized. Granted, its not going to fix the load rate issues, although things were intentionally set low because people wanted a zone they could go into and solo most things over and over for xp and get a chance to get the item they need to progress in their quests.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:15 pm

killing 11 lvl 51 mobs over and over is not my idea of "exping". It's more of a timesink because I have to wait for them to move away from each other or fight 2 groups at the same time (which isn't that hard, just means i have to bring more people to "exp"). It will probably be better in 2.0 though with the exp fixes.

Things seem intentionally tweaked to hit hard. I have never seen jot giants crit people for 1k or drow/duergars critting for 500.

As for FK, the zone writer is on every day...
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:43 am

Yes, many of the mobs in CM have had their dam dice, hps, and xp given adjusted up. Some are set near max. With 2.0, all tthat will no longer be settable so many of those mobs will be easier and I don't want to adjust stats of the quest rewards up to meet the current difficulty then have to adjust things back down again if/when they become over powered when 2.0 comes in. People complain now that they aren't worth the trouble of doing the quests, but they'll complain more if the quest rewards are upgraded and then downgraded later.

As for the writer of FK, yes I know she is online every day. I've already talked with her and thought she was working on the changes needed. Perhaps I was wrong, so I'll need to check back in with her.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:25 am

Marthammor wrote:Yes, many of the mobs in CM have had their dam dice, hps, and xp given adjusted up. Some are set near max. With 2.0, all tthat will no longer be settable so many of those mobs will be easier and I don't want to adjust stats of the quest rewards up to meet the current difficulty then have to adjust things back down again if/when they become over powered when 2.0 comes in. People complain now that they aren't worth the trouble of doing the quests, but they'll complain more if the quest rewards are upgraded and then downgraded later.

As for the writer of FK, yes I know she is online every day. I've already talked with her and thought she was working on the changes needed. Perhaps I was wrong, so I'll need to check back in with her.


The CM quest takes a hella long time, why would you even think of downgrading it? The rewards are crap too.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:30 am

Time is generally viewed as irrelevant. If you only get to play a half hour a day and are working on a quest that requires killing the same mob(s) over and over again to get an item, then it is going to take you longer to do the quest then someone who can play for eight hours at a time. Right now, portions of CM are this way while others feature mobs with jacked up stats to make them hard for a small/large group. Those fights, not the killing of the simple mobs, are what most of the rewards are based off of. If the rewards were upgraded to match the difficulty of those mobs, then once 2.0 came in and the difficulty of those mobs dropped way down, then the rewards would be unbalanced at that point.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:42 pm

So if time is irrelevant and risk is irrelevant, what determines the rewards? The sheer number of kills you have to do for the 10x of one item, 5 of another, 5 of another aren't factored? So you're saying that this timesink is just there to delay the amount of gear that can enter the game?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:03 pm

You know, I did FK, and didn't really find that much wrong with it. Sure, there were aspects of it that were frustrating and annoying, but not every quest system is the same. If you dislike it so much that it alters your enjoyment of the game, the simple answer is to not do it. Probably the most annoying instance was when I gave up multiple items for an item that was even worse... I got a bit of an eye twitch out of that. Each zone is the creation of an individual with a vision of how they want their work to be, and should remain just that no matter what our "resident experts" seem to think.

As for CM... while I admit I haven't gotten that far in it, and probably have no intention of getting that far in it, I get the feeling that the writer intended the rewards to be the result of a lot of busywork and effort expended over a long period of time. I see nothing wrong with that. Those who have the time and resources to spend on it will have equipment that I will probably never get, and that's just as it should be. Has anybody asked the zone creator if they intended it to be that kind of time sink? If they did, then the discussion seems to be rather moot.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:56 pm

Ashiwi wrote:You know, I did FK, and didn't really find that much wrong with it. Sure, there were aspects of it that were frustrating and annoying, but not every quest system is the same. If you dislike it so much that it alters your enjoyment of the game, the simple answer is to not do it. Probably the most annoying instance was when I gave up multiple items for an item that was even worse... I got a bit of an eye twitch out of that. Each zone is the creation of an individual with a vision of how they want their work to be, and should remain just that no matter what our "resident experts" seem to think.

As for CM... while I admit I haven't gotten that far in it, and probably have no intention of getting that far in it, I get the feeling that the writer intended the rewards to be the result of a lot of busywork and effort expended over a long period of time. I see nothing wrong with that. Those who have the time and resources to spend on it will have equipment that I will probably never get, and that's just as it should be. Has anybody asked the zone creator if they intended it to be that kind of time sink? If they did, then the discussion seems to be rather moot.


You're right; I don't see any point in standardizing time/risk vs reward or making the "epic quest" make any sense whatsoever. I guess playing WoW has clouded my judgment on how MMOs should be made. Also, I guess it's OK to have stuff load every few months.

So if the sage asked me how I accumulated all of this fine gear, I'll just tell him I killed the Legendary Finn twice, turned the cupbearer into a doe a couple of times and other crap that makes no sense in the same storyline.

You're right, each zone blah blah blah creator blah blah blah, but no zone maker is perfect. The whole point of a BBS is to provide feedback. I always thought zones were made so people had something to do that's fun. 26 rares for 1 item isn't fun. 26 rares for 3 items maybe. 14 rares for 1 item maybe. Having rares that load maybe 3 months at a time with multiple competiting isn't.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:23 pm

Actually, you have very valid points, but the difference between WoW and this game is that they have people they pay to build standardized zones, and here it's all done by volunteers who have their own vision and gift the game with their individual works. No, I don't think it all makes sense. It sure as heck doesn't all make sense to me. Trust me, I gave PLENTY of feedback on the zone as I was doing it, and not all of it was complimentary. In the end, however, the zonebuilder had a vision on how the zone should be, and it was constructed to be that way. When it was all said and done, I enjoyed myself more than I didn't. FK is not built in a fashion that I particularly enjoy, because I prefer more solo work, but the zone wasn't built for me.

Yes, the BBS IS for feedback, and you are one of the most prolific givers of feedback in the game, and an asset to the game. Unfortunately, not every zone is going to be built to your tastes, and that's a good thing because not every player plays just like you. By all means continue to give excellent feedback, but please keep in mind the individual and eclectic imaginations behind the voluntary work done to forward this game. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean everybody else agrees.

As long as this game depends on voluntary contributions of time and effort, how any particular zone is intended to work should be the zonebuilder's decision. I hope they take the greater good of the game into account when they build it, but just because a zone goes into the game doesn't imply that any of us have to get instant gratification out of doing it, or even finish it, for that matter. You may not understand that, but even if I don't like the zone, I applaud the effort that went into it and support the builder's wishes.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:24 am

I think that the one feature that WoW has that Toril could use is soulbound/unique items. Forcing characters to run zones themselves and preventing people from trading everything really keeps things more fun. If a quest item couldn't be traded, the load rate could be significantly increased without bringing too much loot into the game.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:40 am

If you ask me, and nobody did, the model of turning in powerful statted items in exchange for other statted items is a stupid way to run quests. How on earth do you build and approve a quest where the reward is worse than the quest items and expect players not to gripe about it?

I enjoyed doing Windsong. It sent me around the MUD, to zones I both knew and never would have visited otherwise. It was linear, it was long, it was difficult, it was clear what I needed, and all or most of the quest items were common loads. I don't understand the problem with quests like that. Give the player a token item and make them touch it to beacons in several difficult and untraveled locations.

Don't ask the player to hand over a sack full of valuable shit unless you're really sure they're going to like what they get in return.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:04 am

Ashiwi wrote:Actually, you have very valid points, but the difference between WoW and this game is that they have people they pay to build standardized zones, and here it's all done by volunteers who have their own vision and gift the game with their individual works. No, I don't think it all makes sense. It sure as heck doesn't all make sense to me. Trust me, I gave PLENTY of feedback on the zone as I was doing it, and not all of it was complimentary. In the end, however, the zonebuilder had a vision on how the zone should be, and it was constructed to be that way. When it was all said and done, I enjoyed myself more than I didn't. FK is not built in a fashion that I particularly enjoy, because I prefer more solo work, but the zone wasn't built for me.

Yes, the BBS IS for feedback, and you are one of the most prolific givers of feedback in the game, and an asset to the game. Unfortunately, not every zone is going to be built to your tastes, and that's a good thing because not every player plays just like you. By all means continue to give excellent feedback, but please keep in mind the individual and eclectic imaginations behind the voluntary work done to forward this game. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean everybody else agrees.

As long as this game depends on voluntary contributions of time and effort, how any particular zone is intended to work should be the zonebuilder's decision. I hope they take the greater good of the game into account when they build it, but just because a zone goes into the game doesn't imply that any of us have to get instant gratification out of doing it, or even finish it, for that matter. You may not understand that, but even if I don't like the zone, I applaud the effort that went into it and support the builder's wishes.


That's cool, that's your belief. I believe people should make zones so people do them. Back in the day, I could think of alot of reasons to do every single zone in this game. Number gets fewer and fewer as new zones are added or changed because of poor maintenance on the Areas sphere.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ambar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:18 am

Kelly I love the way you word things :) You take what I think and put it in far better words than I could ever muster the strength to convey.

I have been following this chain of posts and thinking the exact same thing .. not everyone will be happy with everything. Not every zone or quest is made for everyone. I am quite certain not everyone likes Randars .. So be it .. let them find something else that they enjoy, the mud holds content for EVERYONE.

As you an see the two who *figured out* FK for all of the rest of us found things in it they didn't enjoy, but for the most part they were satisfied with the fact they figured it out. Hell I even had a small role in figuring one segment out even tho it was a screwup on my part (HAH!)

WoW has paid staff members/coders/writes/administrators. Torilmud does not, which we all know, which I am sure everyone appreciates in their own way. Martha says he is trying to fix things with the zone writer, give them time to fix it.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:23 am

Ambar wrote:Kelly I love the way you word things :) You take what I think and put it in far better words than I could ever muster the strength to convey.

I have been following this chain of posts and thinking the exact same thing .. not everyone will be happy with everything. Not every zone or quest is made for everyone. I am quite certain not everyone likes Randars .. So be it .. let them find something else that they enjoy, the mud holds content for EVERYONE.

As you an see the two who *figured out* FK for all of the rest of us found things in it they didn't enjoy, but for the most part they were satisfied with the fact they figured it out. Hell I even had a small role in figuring one segment out even tho it was a screwup on my part (HAH!)

WoW has paid staff members/coders/writes/administrators. Torilmud does not, which we all know, which I am sure everyone appreciates in their own way. Martha says he is trying to fix things with the zone writer, give them time to fix it.


Well, if you logged in more often, you could see that Morena never goes into FK, FK is rarely done unless Uxur logs in, I never bust into FK unless I know something I need is up, and Ashiwi is rarely on afaik. Had I known the epic quest took 26 rares, one of which I have never seen before, I would not have started.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Larem » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:35 am

leave FK alone, and bitch about a zone that needs obvious improvement, like say, GF, oh, wait, Gf is constantly bitched about, but always seems to be done, i just wish the zone was more RP friendly, rather than just the person questing the items gets involved with the npcs, maybe we can talk the zone maker into creating another zone with a better mix of player interaction, that would be a good thing to have, something else for people to bitch about, but the rest of the group, rather than the same 5 people who always do the zone, might enjoy doing

hrm.....where do you petition for a zone writer to make another zone?

I personally LOVE the ansi on the GF keg
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:13 am

With the blame for the mud's lack of progress firmly being placed on the fact that the admins are unpaid, I finally see Toril's niche. Its the game for people who cannot afford to pay for WoW!

*duck*
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:41 am

Corth wrote:With the blame for the mud's lack of progress firmly being placed on the fact that the admins are unpaid, I finally see Toril's niche. Its the game for people who cannot afford to pay for WoW!

*duck*


If we complain about no pbase, people say it's because of graphical MMOs.
If we complain about the lack of gods, we complain the gods don't let us help.
If we complain about the gods not doing anything, we blame graphical MMOs for getting paid.

Anyone see the pattern?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:23 am

Anyways, I clearly laid out the amount of work and time you need to do to finish FK's "epic" quest to the area gods via toril.areas@gmail.com and Lathander's personal e-mail. My suggestions were:

Issues:

1. So the main issue with this quest is that the necromancer is VERY rare and his quest item is not always in game. This means you're both waiting against the necromancer loading and people not cockblocking you. You need Finn's head, which means the following:

You or the people doing FK this boot MUST quest Finn via Finn's signet ring.

You must kill Finn inside FK. If faerie emissary is up, most groups who are not doing the epic quest are going to quest Finn inside FK, thus getting rid of Finn's head

You MUST NOT go through Wervnod portal. Some people go in through Wervnod way which prevents Finn from being inside FK.

2. 26 Rares.... for 1 item that is an AC 15 upgrade over a smoke invasion orb. This quest was designed to take 6-12 months assuming nobody knows how to do the zone and only one person is doing it. Why am I wasting my time doing this quest if it's weaker than something like a Tiamat item or a khanjari? If you're going to say "well you don't have to do it", then that's a horrible dev response. Even WoW designers have catered to their players. Maybe it's about time Area gods did the same.

3. Repetitive quested items and story flow. Why do I have to quest boots and armor twice to reach the shield objective? How about taking out armor from squire quest so he only requires the sword? How about giving Taruk some comfortable shoes so the porter wants those instead of boots? This would cut the rare count by 6 for the armor, 5 for the boots.

____________________________________________________________

Honestly, the only person's opinion I remotely care about is Uxur's posse and Morena's and Area gods who took the time to read my e-mail. The players know the quest and the true load rate rather than the Area gods. Uxur's I care more about because he has been on the quest for over a year now while Morena may or may not play the "lol it was easy" card since she's done. Gratz on Moritheil status to the rest of the posters.

As for my personal beliefs in zone writing... I believe every zone should have some sort of "reason" for being there. When I made Randar's, I made a zone that was difficult to exp in, but have good experience (the numbers do indeed reflect this if you take the time to do it and don't consider CM). If you haven't realized this, that's really your tough luck. There's no trick, just a bunch of aggros that don't see invis. A small few have banked on it. As for the quest, I tried to recycle items to give meaning for zones I felt were rarely done or were never utilized. I admit half of the rewards are somewhat crappy, but they did have good use during their time. The weapons just plain suck, but when I was asked to think of a proc, I had already give up hope for the MUD thanks to Larem.

FK is a great zone with great experience, gear, and has an excellent concept of allowing a 7-man group to do content. The zone is fairly complicated as well, which is great. However, I think the main epic quest has a few small flaws and some serious flaws that were never addressed.
Some may say leave it the way it is. I say, make it reasonable for the next questers or for someone who wants to finish within less than 6 months worth of time.

As for the storyline not making sense.. here's some food for thought.
FK shield quest requires 26 rares. Boots take 5-6, Armor takes 5-6. You need to use boots/armor to get legs/arms of the Fianna set. Boots/armor storyline both require finding someone's dead husband, avenging someone by killing Finn, technically poisoning someone to where they turn into an animal. and questing/killing people that should be long gone due to the them fulfilling their objective.

FK is an exceptional zone because not many people know the quest. I'd like to mix it up a little and see what people who aren't close/old friends of the zone writer think. We have alot of people who aren't actively working on the quest or who have small snippets of the quest who say they think it's fine. If you think it's truly fine, do the quest and prove me wrong. Notice how everyone who has said the quest is fine has never done it. The shield is no khanjari, but why not do it? Some say the quest for enjoyment, some say they quest for loot. I guess we know where the people who have replied stand. Put your money where your mouth is. If you're sitting on the sidelines and think I'm wrong, do the quest. Don't have the info? Neither did I and I still did it. I regret it and wouldn't have if Morena told me straight up it was 26 rares. Hell, I'll give you the info on these terms:

1: Lead 5 FK clears. I will confirm the clear when I receive Finn's head or if I'm in the group. I will also help you lead if you need to the first time.
2: You leave 4 mobs unkilled until I have my shield.
3. Provide feedback on the BBS on your thoughts after you receive the write-up.

Or an area god could just leak the e-mail I sent. Whichever.

P.S. I apologize for not posting in a more structured manner. Seems alot like babbling but I'm too lazy at this point.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ambar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:45 pm

My whole point here .. Martha said he'd take a look at the issue, he agrees stuff is wrong, let him fix it!

I used the non paid example to remind people that the requests they may have or fixes they posted may be delayed for the holiday .. I know where I used to work almost shut down except for emergencies from Dec 20-Jan15th or so .. we only had a skeleton crew at best .. I did not use non paid to not expect results, merely as a reminder to be patient.
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Postby Birile » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:24 pm

1. Are we talking about magical essence? If so, eww. I'm not sure of the stats but it didn't seem all that impressive compared to shield of engorged eyeballs, except maybe for higher AC? I say, go kill Tarrasque. Just my personal opinion.

2. Randar's is extremely easy exp. 34% in two hours at lvl 50, baby. I'm sure others have gotten more.

3. Requiring people to prove something to you with some set of "terms" is just pompous.

4. If someone really only cares about the input of Uxur, Morena and some Imms then they would only talk to that group of people about the subject at hand and wouldn't post on the BBS.

5. I heart quicksilver mask.
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Postby Marthammor » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:05 pm

Honestly Dartan, I've only skimmed the email you sent... twice. Once from the toril.areas@gmail.com account and the other that Lathander forwarded to Cyric and I. I didn't feel the need to sit and read through the whole thing as I already new most of the details from when I talked to you online and worked through the quest steps myself.

Now, there are fixes for most of the problems on testmud already. Once I'm given the ok on them, I'll get someone to move them to main with a news entry for it (and other things I'd been working on as well).
I can tell you that the number of rares needed have not changed, but the dead end quests have been updated and different ways to get Finn's head now exist. A max load issue regarding one of the quest items has also been taken care of. This is all the work of the area writer, which is why its taken so long. She wanted to preserve her ideals of the zone while trying to take care of your concerns.
All I suggest is wait till the changes come in, then post feedback again.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:31 pm

Birile wrote:1. Are we talking about magical essence? If so, eww. I'm not sure of the stats but it didn't seem all that impressive compared to shield of engorged eyeballs, except maybe for higher AC? I say, go kill Tarrasque. Just my personal opinion.

2. Randar's is extremely easy exp. 34% in two hours at lvl 50, baby. I'm sure others have gotten more.

3. Requiring people to prove something to you with some set of "terms" is just pompous.

4. If someone really only cares about the input of Uxur, Morena and some Imms then they would only talk to that group of people about the subject at hand and wouldn't post on the BBS.

5. I heart quicksilver mask.


I'm not going to give someone quest info so they can just look at it and nod. If they really want to give a go at this quest, leading the zone a few times at least tells me they're going to try.

I posted on the BBS because in the past, certain issues were never fixed via PMs or e-mails. Avernus/BC is a fine example.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:49 pm

Marthammor wrote:Honestly Dartan, I've only skimmed the email you sent... twice. Once from the toril.areas@gmail.com account and the other that Lathander forwarded to Cyric and I. I didn't feel the need to sit and read through the whole thing as I already new most of the details from when I talked to you online and worked through the quest steps myself.

Now, there are fixes for most of the problems on testmud already. Once I'm given the ok on them, I'll get someone to move them to main with a news entry for it (and other things I'd been working on as well).
I can tell you that the number of rares needed have not changed, but the dead end quests have been updated and different ways to get Finn's head now exist. A max load issue regarding one of the quest items has also been taken care of. This is all the work of the area writer, which is why its taken so long. She wanted to preserve her ideals of the zone while trying to take care of your concerns.
All I suggest is wait till the changes come in, then post feedback again.


So the only thing I won't be complaining about is Finn's head. I've already talked to the zone writer about the load rates.
Zone writer tells you 'you shouldn't see much difference in the rates of the moors rares one between another'
Yet, I have yet to see the necromancer, I have seen the hag enough times to where I freely dice it's gear etc.. I still think you guys should test FK with Uxur, Morena, Ashiwi, and/or I online or with FK items to see if the .zon file is working correctly. Just a thought.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Oh yea can you change glowing faerie ring to 5 maxagi instead of 5 maxdex? This would bring huge value to the zone and this will occur in Toril 2.0 regardless.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:17 am

Incidentally... I forgot to mention this earlier, but that necromancer does NOT load the same amount as the other bogmonkies. He's rare as hell, and I'd swear that back when I was dabbling in there, I complained my butt off about this "mystery mob" that I knew had to be there because I had been at a dead end for so long.

And to clear up certain hints that were dropped above... I stopped playing before I actually finished the zone. Morena finished it. This zone got on my nerves so damned bad it gave me an eye twitch. I love the story, I love the writing, I love the atmosphere... I hate the design. Again, my fundamental dislike of the zone comes from having to get a group just to bust in. The complexity of the puzzles are designed for solo play because you can't keep that many people interested for the right reasons without rewarding them and making the process take another year before it's figured out, but you can't do ANYTHING in the zone solo because you can't even get in on your own. The zone is designed for a group, but questers are notoriously solo. Since the zone is self-contained, it's impossible to try to do the zone without tipping your hand about how things are done, and next thing you know, the same people you've been working with are in there working against you, trying to do it for themselves because doing it as a group isn't working fast enough for them. I really, REALLY don't like the way the zone is designed, but I think the zonebuilder created a gorgeous, complex piece of work with its own niche within the game, and deserves kudos for all the work that was put into it. Seriously... FK pissed me off to the point where I refused to go back in it... but it's my choice to not go back just as it's the builder's choice to shape their creativity in their own fashion.

As for the whole "blaming it on paid staff" thing... the only reason I brought that up is because paid staff are being paid to focus their creativity in a certain manner. The most you can really do with a volunteer staff is threaten to fire them or not accept their work. That's a fantastic beginning to no longer having any volunteers.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:28 am

Gee, necro is rare but they have similar load rates as the others. Thoughts Marthammor?
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:45 am

The farmer, leprechaun, shambling mound, towering swamp giant, Fer, spectere, Aillen, savage lizardman, living wall, and the necromancer all have the same chance to load and any of them could load at the same time as the others. The hag has a lower chance to load then those above, but it also gets two chances to load per repop rather then the one chance the others have.

I would have no problem with the ring stat change if thats what the writer wants to do. Like you said, its going to be changed automatically when 2.0 hits anyway.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:31 pm

OK, how about this. If I were to guess the list going down the .zon file in what order they are checked, would living wall and necromancer be near the bottom?
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:34 pm

No, they are not.

The two you reference are on line 139 and 143 of a zon file greater than 500 lines.

The lines to trigger the load for both, the living wall and the necromancer are led off with M 0.

They're very low load rates, I'll agree. I'm not areas, I wasn't involved with the writing of the zone, and I've been somewhat keeping up with the thread. I can't see anything at a casual perusal that would cause one superrare to fire more often than another of the same chance.

That said, I too will look at it and even run some experiments with zresetting once I make sure I'm not missing a load mechanism. I once tried to test the jot invasion loading rates and was using the wrong trigger, it was three hours I really wish had never happened.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:04 pm

I meant at the bottom of the list of rares.
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:40 pm

I posted them in order of which they were in the zon file, so yes they are at the bottom of the list for those rares. More rares follow, but are worked a bit differently. As Eilistraee said, the load lines start off with M 0, so they aren't loaded conditionally or anything. They have the same chance to load as the rares above them. If the dice roll right, every one of those rares could all load at the same time, although that would be highly unlikely.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:24 am

Though the hag loading 8x at least more than necromancer doesn't seem right either. Interesting huh? I'd say try putting the necromancer load in a diff line (preferably in the spot of the hag) and see what happens. I'm assuming something is wrong of course.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:29 am

Marthammor wrote:I posted them in order of which they were in the zon file, so yes they are at the bottom of the list for those rares. More rares follow, but are worked a bit differently. As Eilistraee said, the load lines start off with M 0, so they aren't loaded conditionally or anything. They have the same chance to load as the rares above them. If the dice roll right, every one of those rares could all load at the same time, although that would be highly unlikely.


I've also seen 2 rares load in one pop. Was hag and farmer.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:56 am

So how did it go.
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Postby Osheara » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:01 pm

Are we there yet?!

;)
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:24 pm

He tested it last night. Ironically, it loaded on the 4th zreset on test but not another time.
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:27 pm

Not quite true. The first load came after the fourth reset. The second load came after considerably more tries at loading the zone, and seemed consistent with the numbers in the file.

That said, I've run into other strange disconnects between testmud and mainmud, so I'm not done looking into this yet in case this is another one of those. I just ran out of time last night and will be getting back to it when I can.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:10 pm

Werd.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:57 am

Please put troll invasion on the bottom of the rare list and hag right before it. Thanks!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:42 am

Thoughts? It's pretty sad that mound and hag were up almost the whole night I think until Uxur's group logged in to kill it. It's just us trying to finish the quest and we can't because apparently it takes 2 months to get anything fixed around here.
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Postby Marthammor » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:44 pm

And apparently it takes an equal amount of time for certain players to get the hint that we're working on it and to STFU until we say its fixed and on main.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:16 pm

So by "fixed" what you mean is "given to you right now."
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:45 pm

8)

Dalar needs another hobby, like macrame.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:19 pm

What's macrame
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:47 pm

Ashiwi wrote:So by "fixed" what you mean is "given to you right now."


Actually, it was late and I had just realized something. I have complained about alot of different things in the past. I've tried giving feedback in a constructive manner and other times in a mean tone. Either way, it comes down to me constantly spamming the immortals or other people chiming in later (when they finally realize what I'm talking about) to get things changed. Honestly, 3 months of waiting to complain is much longer than the few weeks I use to do it in.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:40 pm

Btw thx for the changes.
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