Moonwell, Resurrect, etc..

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Moonwell, Resurrect, etc..

Postby Thilindel » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:53 pm

Any way they can be friendlier? Sometimes, I don't log the druid on just because I can't stand the 20-40 seconds this thing takes.. Relocate and gate are less than half well/res' cast time. Why can't the other utility spells fall into that category?
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:57 pm

I agree. The cast times for these are long. Arguments such as "it'd be so twinky if it was 10 stars" are stupid because gate is already 5 stars.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:06 am

it'd be so twinky if it was 10 stars
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:34 pm

But I Just love Twinkies!

Grum
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Postby Lilira » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:51 pm

*sighs as yet another 'inconvenience' that can be explained RPly on the themed mud stands in line for the chopping block.*
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:29 pm

Is it really that much harder, thematically speaking, to open a moonwell than a gate? Or to summon a swarm of meteors?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Raiwen » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:49 pm

We should just increase the casting time of all spells to 5 stars or more..

maybe 10 stars..

for RP purposes of course!
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Postby Pril » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:51 pm

10 stars? cast moonwell or Res while in fx sometime and fail quickchant :p
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Postby Lilira » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:06 pm

Look in a PHB folks. Different spells have different casting times.. so :P to the sarcastic "Make everything 5 stars" comment.

Opening a Moonwell should be damn difficult. "Oh please goddess or nature even can I make this shortcut to so and so who is too damn lazy to walk his butt down from Ice Crag to WD." So should gate. As for res.. oh heck yeah... "Oh please great god hummidy hum, may I pretty please return the soul of this poor dumb shmuck who couldn't keep his curiosity from getting him killed back into his body? Thanks!" Great God hummidy hum has to FIND said soul then cram him back into the body.. not to mention HEALING it enough to house said soul. Should take lots of time.

I've thought for years some of the higher level invoker spells should have all been the same (cept inferno) as the old casting time for Incen Cloud. Damn things are powerful so it should take more to pull them together..

Point I'm trying to make... some of these bandaids/requests are getting out of hand imo.. was it REALLY that difficult to type meditate? We're loosing theme for the sake of convenience. *shrug*
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:13 pm

Lilira wrote:Look in a PHB folks. Different spells have different casting times.. so :P to the sarcastic "Make everything 5 stars" comment.

Yeah, I know. And Teleport is 5th circle, you can take all of your friends with you, and it has the same casting time as Magic Missile (one standard action).

If you want to compare Moonwell to Teleportation Circle (which does have a long cast time), then we should also make Moonwells stick around for 10 minutes per character level. Oh also, it's a Wizard (Conjuration) spell, so let's take it away from Druids and give it to Elementalists. Doesn't that make more sense, from a D&D standpoint?

Let's all put the PHB away. It isn't relevant to this conversation.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby sotana » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:41 pm

Other than the failed qc while in res fx example, I really don't mind the cast time of moonwell. Now if word of recall became filiburster of recall, then I'd have a problem. I'm far more interested in a speedy getaway than a less leisurely arrival. Besides, all those ******'s for moonwell give me plenty of time to ponder the cookies I am about to receive. Mmm...
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:53 am

You make a fair and possibly delicious argument.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:41 am

Lilira wrote: We're loosing theme for the sake of convenience. *shrug*


Theme as defined by creator(s) of a mud that is past its time, technologically speaking. WOW, etc. are more fun due to progress, visuals, and so forth without having to hurry up and wait.

Waiting for ferries..
Waiting for spells to cast in 20 to 40 seconds - yet all it does is dim fold on a prime plane, with limits. GATE, on the other hand, planar travel in less than half the time? Ooookay, there's an argument!

Theme doesn't go hand in hand with real life players, players' busy lives, players having an hour or two of real time to play due to work, etc. Time sinks are time STINKS.

It's not 'god mode' to ask for an updated spell cast rate; I mean really ..

Just a quick thought: How much real life time, in hours, has lilithelle waited for those *'s to come and go in her career as the druid? Just for thought, several stop lights in my area are faster than that damned moonwell :P
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:14 am

Since god reply was for ChP, how about input for this topic?
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:26 am

I don't see changing the casting times before 2.0
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Postby Gurns » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:41 am

Thilindel wrote:Theme doesn't go hand in hand with real life players, players' busy lives, players having an hour or two of real time to play due to work, etc.

Sure it does, if that's what people want. Me, I want theme. I don't play here much anymore because the theme is so far gone. If the theme came back, I'd be back.

Thilindel wrote:WOW, etc. are more fun due to progress, visuals, and so forth without having to hurry up and wait.

Even if the imms did everything you wanted, this game can never be the game WoW is. If those other games are more fun for you than this one, they'll always be more fun. If that's how you feel, then you're the one wasting your time, just by being here.

Me, I think the great strength of a mud is that it's not WoW. On a mud, with text and imagination, the world can seem more real, be more fun. More immersive, more complex, more challenging...if the imms bother to make it so. I think a great problem with this mud is that it's trying to be too much like WoW. In doing that, it's given up its strengths.

Thilindel wrote:Time sinks are time STINKS.
Many of what you call "time sinks" are logistical challenges. Challenges that used to have to be overcome, just like the battle challenges. Yeah, people complained about them back then, too. But good players could manage the logistics with very little slow down in their zoning. The logistical challenges made the game more complex, more involving, and so ultimately, more interesting.

Of course, things like eating and drinking, things like transport spells being rare and difficult, those also fit into the theme, fit into FR, they helped make the world more real.

But these days, the mud is a simpler, shallower, easier place. Theme, complexity, a variety of challenges, the integrity of the world – things that could be strengths for this mud – have all been sacrificed for player convenience.

No wonder the mud is dying. Tic-tac-toe is a simple, easy, convenient game, too. But I rarely have the urge to play it.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:21 am

Someone appointed a spell to have a certain cast time, waaaay back in the early 90's. That doesn't represent theme. Theme is not the essence as per cast time of a couple of way too long to cast spells. Creeping doom...rot, they're long because the admin didn't want the spells to overlap basically. Why the cast time on res/moonwell? Makes no sense. I think there are two type players. Ones like Lilira..gurns, etc who love to emote, RP, etc. Can't live without the *"* type stuff. Lilira's a.k.a. *verb* type. That's fine. The other type player that I know of is the smash-shit type, like me :P I like to blow things up, gain power, etc. I don't want to be too powerful because the game would get boring.

Given Ross can solo dragons, I'd say that there are some _gaping_ holes in balance on the mud...duh. But for RP vs. hack 'n slash players, there's no balance just the same. I'd like RP too most likely if I had the time. I personally play the mud to get away from RL crap. Anyway, Eilistraee answered so ...feh

Something out of theme would be cars, stoplights, laser sabers, ...technology or something blatantly out of the question relative to the era and what not. Theme isn't making a spell less insanely long in cast time.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:32 am

Gurns wrote:
Thilindel wrote:Theme doesn't go hand in hand with real life players, players' busy lives, players having an hour or two of real time to play due to work, etc.

Sure it does, if that's what people want. Me, I want theme. I don't play here much anymore because the theme is so far gone. If the theme came back, I'd be back.

Thilindel wrote:WOW, etc. are more fun due to progress, visuals, and so forth without having to hurry up and wait.

Even if the imms did everything you wanted, this game can never be the game WoW is. If those other games are more fun for you than this one, they'll always be more fun. If that's how you feel, then you're the one wasting your time, just by being here.

Me, I think the great strength of a mud is that it's not WoW. On a mud, with text and imagination, the world can seem more real, be more fun. More immersive, more complex, more challenging...if the imms bother to make it so. I think a great problem with this mud is that it's trying to be too much like WoW. In doing that, it's given up its strengths.

Thilindel wrote:Time sinks are time STINKS.
Many of what you call "time sinks" are logistical challenges. Challenges that used to have to be overcome, just like the battle challenges. Yeah, people complained about them back then, too. But good players could manage the logistics with very little slow down in their zoning. The logistical challenges made the game more complex, more involving, and so ultimately, more interesting.

Of course, things like eating and drinking, things like transport spells being rare and difficult, those also fit into the theme, fit into FR, they helped make the world more real.

But these days, the mud is a simpler, shallower, easier place. Theme, complexity, a variety of challenges, the integrity of the world – things that could be strengths for this mud – have all been sacrificed for player convenience.

No wonder the mud is dying. Tic-tac-toe is a simple, easy, convenient game, too. But I rarely have the urge to play it.


Can you give more examples on why this game is more tic-tac-toeish? I never saw you as more than someone who just RP'ed rather than someone who aimed to finish the game's content. The only reason the game is getting easier is because people are finally realizing how to play this game. I hear staying alive for the human race became really easy once we figured out how to cook and use medicine too btw (OMG RP IRL).
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Lilira » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:35 pm

Thilindel wrote:I think there are two type players. Ones like Lilira..gurns, etc who love to emote, RP, etc. Can't live without the *"* type stuff. Lilira's a.k.a. *verb* type. That's fine. The other type player that I know of is the smash-shit type, like me :P I like to blow things up, gain power, etc. I don't want to be too powerful because the game would get boring.


(Starting off by saying point blank.. you for the most part is meant generally for people who stomp and snort about in-game theme. This is not meant to be offensive or insulting.)

But if you pay attention Thil.. its more smash type playing now but all the smashers are still asking for the game to get easier. Easier means easier to get too powerful. The RPers are getting tired of the theme stuff poofing and logging in far less frequently. The balance for theme was important no matter how much you may scoff at someone who would blow off a zone to go RP. Because that is all you see. Why do I like RP? Because I'm bumping my head against things with real people on the other end who are thinking and having mobs react accordingly instead of killing the same thing over and over and over. Hell yes I'd take that over another Izans run.

But, I'll toss my 2c for mechanics. Let's remove the long assed cast time for moonwell!! Mmm... makes it much easier to tag, run out, cast moonwell before aggro comes back in to jump you... basically easier to twink, which means less need to group. Okay, well that also means more twinkable gear in the game, more powerful stuff for everyone.. blah blah.

As it is, all the Tiamat gear in game has totally rendered lots of people as useless unless they have some. I mean come on.. the epic 17 hour fight... down to SIX? Yeah, some of that is tactics I've heard.. but how much is the fact that of the people going, most have tia gear already and the damage done is freakin' phenomenal? IMO, that's the kind of stuff that should be fixed to make the game a challenge, not dropping some stars off a few spells.

Now its just boring like unflavored soup. One reason why I was looking forward to 2.0. The scope for RP options and game flavor is endless with the choices we would be able to make, mob options, etc. But then we haven't heard diddley about 2.0 in forever, so *shrug*.

Oh and btw... there are three types of players Thil. RP, Smash... and the ones whose enjoyment of the game is solving things... Questers/explorers. (No I'm not saying they don't mingle/overlap.)
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:46 pm

Name 3 changes that affected RP.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Lilira » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:56 pm

Didn't say RP straight out Dalar.. I said theme.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:59 pm

Lilira wrote:
Thilindel wrote:I think there are two type players. Ones like Lilira..gurns, etc who love to emote, RP, etc. Can't live without the *"* type stuff. Lilira's a.k.a. *verb* type. That's fine. The other type player that I know of is the smash-shit type, like me :P I like to blow things up, gain power, etc. I don't want to be too powerful because the game would get boring.


(Starting off by saying point blank.. you for the most part is meant generally for people who stomp and snort about in-game theme. This is not meant to be offensive or insulting.)

But if you pay attention Thil.. its more smash type playing now but all the smashers are still asking for the game to get easier. Easier means easier to get too powerful. The RPers are getting tired of the theme stuff poofing and logging in far less frequently. The balance for theme was important no matter how much you may scoff at someone who would blow off a zone to go RP. Because that is all you see. Why do I like RP? Because I'm bumping my head against things with real people on the other end who are thinking and having mobs react accordingly instead of killing the same thing over and over and over. Hell yes I'd take that over another Izans run.

But, I'll toss my 2c for mechanics. Let's remove the long assed cast time for moonwell!! Mmm... makes it much easier to tag, run out, cast moonwell before aggro comes back in to jump you... basically easier to twink, which means less need to group. Okay, well that also means more twinkable gear in the game, more powerful stuff for everyone.. blah blah.

As it is, all the Tiamat gear in game has totally rendered lots of people as useless unless they have some. I mean come on.. the epic 17 hour fight... down to SIX? Yeah, some of that is tactics I've heard.. but how much is the fact that of the people going, most have tia gear already and the damage done is freakin' phenomenal? IMO, that's the kind of stuff that should be fixed to make the game a challenge, not dropping some stars off a few spells.

Now its just boring like unflavored soup. One reason why I was looking forward to 2.0. The scope for RP options and game flavor is endless with the choices we would be able to make, mob options, etc. But then we haven't heard diddley about 2.0 in forever, so *shrug*.

Oh and btw... there are three types of players Thil. RP, Smash... and the ones whose enjoyment of the game is solving things... Questers/explorers. (No I'm not saying they don't mingle/overlap.)


Tiamat was made easier because you guys never min/maxed until recently. Show me your original group and I'll be it's nowhere near close to optimal. Also, ranger archery code has always been in game and we never took advantage of it. That's YOUR fault, not the gods. That's like playing MUD with one hand and then figuring out you can use both hands to type. I've done countless number of "impossible" fights in WoW and all the sudden things got easier since the first try. It's called progression. You can keep blaming the MUD being easier when in fact it's the players getting smarter.

Tiamat gear this wipe has never been made a player so powerful to make others completely insignificant. The only items to have done that is Khanjari and possibly BS swords. I hope new players reading your post don't mistaken your post as anything close to reality. I've taken multiple people to FK, some with completely shitty gear and we did fine.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:02 am

Lilira wrote:Didn't say RP straight out Dalar.. I said theme.


Name 3 changes that have affected the theme within the past year.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:18 am

Meditate. Didn't hurt anything to have it sheesh.

Res fx. There's a REASON res fx time should have remained the same. Heck the last time everyone was jumping up and down was when the bard song was added iirc. Recovering from being returned to life from death SHOULD take a while. Doesn't matter if you're not RPing or not.. its a THEME thing that should be inherent to the game. God knows I die frequently enough to have plenty of experience at it. I usually laughed and ran to grab a drink or something. (Before the kids were old enough to grab one for me.)

Can't make three. *shrug*

BUT... the argument I am making is against the CURRENT changes being requested. There were reasons for the long cast time and I think they should apply.

Here's one for you Dalar...

How many changes can you list that RP has somehow brought to the mud whether thematic or otherwise? And no counting Ashstone.. cus that's just too easy.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby torkur » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:30 am

Lilira wrote:Meditate. Didn't hurt anything to have it sheesh.

Res fx. There's a REASON res fx time should have remained the same. Heck the last time everyone was jumping up and down was when the bard song was added iirc. Recovering from being returned to life from death SHOULD take a while. Doesn't matter if you're not RPing or not.. its a THEME thing that should be inherent to the game. God knows I die frequently enough to have plenty of experience at it. I usually laughed and ran to grab a drink or something. (Before the kids were old enough to grab one for me.)

Can't make three. *shrug*

BUT... the argument I am making is against the CURRENT changes being requested. There were reasons for the long cast time and I think they should apply.

Here's one for you Dalar...

How many changes can you list that RP has somehow brought to the mud whether thematic or otherwise? And no counting Ashstone.. cus that's just too easy.


1) Khanjari being f*cked up is completely rp based as it was "woken up" through the RP campaign.

2) The disolving of Twilight Raven (Old guild a few of us were in, RP based) was completely destroyed by RP campaign. It caused a few people to quit for a while..and some haven't returned. The gods were always too busy to help control anything or do anything RP based unless it was for the campaign, so we all just stopped trying. Ask Osheara if you want a list of times she tried to run things, only to get squashed with no immortal help.

That's 2 and I'm too busy at work to think fo a third in under 5 minutes. :P
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:34 am

:P Should have reiterated the one year that Dalar listed.

That is all ancient history iirc.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:33 am

Lilira wrote:Meditate. Didn't hurt anything to have it sheesh.

Res fx. There's a REASON res fx time should have remained the same. Heck the last time everyone was jumping up and down was when the bard song was added iirc. Recovering from being returned to life from death SHOULD take a while. Doesn't matter if you're not RPing or not.. its a THEME thing that should be inherent to the game. God knows I die frequently enough to have plenty of experience at it. I usually laughed and ran to grab a drink or something. (Before the kids were old enough to grab one for me.)

Can't make three. *shrug*

BUT... the argument I am making is against the CURRENT changes being requested. There were reasons for the long cast time and I think they should apply.

Here's one for you Dalar...

How many changes can you list that RP has somehow brought to the mud whether thematic or otherwise? And no counting Ashstone.. cus that's just too easy.


Res effects is and always has been a game mechanic. Wasn't it added to prevent people from just ressing and going back into combat asap? So you're asking people to sacrifice their own time just so things can "make sense". Who's to say it doesn't take 5 hours to recover from death instead of 10 hours? Oh I guess it should be 20 huh? They removed a timesink and you're saying it's a bad change because of RP. I'm pretty sure everyone who actually does difficult zones just stopped reading what you have to say or care.

How about this, why are items !rent then? How does FK make sense at all? How does 2 people killing dragons make sense? Also, respond to Ragorn's comment. He pretty much destroyed every "OH GOD THINK OF THE RP AND THE SMALL FRACTION OF THE PBASE THAT QUIT BECAUSE OF IT" response.

I'm pretty sure the game is "loosely" based on D&D and should always cater to making a better game where players actually stay rather than beat their heads against the wall until they are forced to play better games.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:01 am

Ragorn wrote:
Lilira wrote:Look in a PHB folks. Different spells have different casting times.. so :P to the sarcastic "Make everything 5 stars" comment.

Yeah, I know. And Teleport is 5th circle, you can take all of your friends with you, and it has the same casting time as Magic Missile (one standard action).

If you want to compare Moonwell to Teleportation Circle (which does have a long cast time), then we should also make Moonwells stick around for 10 minutes per character level. Oh also, it's a Wizard (Conjuration) spell, so let's take it away from Druids and give it to Elementalists. Doesn't that make more sense, from a D&D standpoint?

Let's all put the PHB away. It isn't relevant to this conversation.



As requested....

*ducks ahead of time, running away from the druids with the pretty vine ropes*

I agree. Take Moonwell away! In the Forgotten Realms world, moonwells couldn't be cast by any old druid, they were limited to the Moonshaes!!! Fix teleport! Hmm.. wait a sec... for all we know that's in the plans for 2.0. *shrug*

This bickering is pretty much worthless to be honest. So once again I'll totter off into the mists of *shrug* just because Imms are going to do what they want. We haven't had an update on 2.0 in forever, and the bandaids will happen or not as deemed necessary by the ones who hold the 'keys'. Question is... how much of the 'soul' of the game will be left?
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:29 am

Ragorn wrote:Is it really that much harder, thematically speaking, to open a moonwell than a gate? Or to summon a swarm of meteors?

I imagine this is the post Dartan was talking about.

All this "theme" crap makes no sense. There's absolutely no thematic reason why Moonwell should be any harder or take any longer to cast than Dragonscales, Gate, Relocate, or any other 9th or 10th level quested spell. Resurrect has res FX for balance reasons, it doesn't have one fucking thing to do with RP or theme. There IS no theme behind cast times. They're relatively arbitrary, and what logic exists is derived from game balance. It has nothing to do with Forgotten Realms or D&D.

Question is... how much of the 'soul' of the game will be left?

You aren't arguing for theme at all anyway, you're just bitching because you don't want things to change. You just want things to stay the same way they've always been. Same stupid argument that we have every week on this board.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:07 pm

Lilira wrote:But, I'll toss my 2c for mechanics. Let's remove the long assed cast time for moonwell!! Mmm... makes it much easier to tag, run out, cast moonwell before aggro comes back in to jump you... basically easier to twink, which means less need to group. Okay, well that also means more twinkable gear in the game, more powerful stuff for everyone.. blah blah.


Didn't get to read it all but as for this specifically, wouldn't it be soo much easier to FOLD in this situation? Let alone illusionist' twink vs. druid's? The balance for any class is laughable. Fold is pretty slow...Moonwell is a spell that, no matter where you are in the game, every few minutes, you get a request to cast it for someone who doesn't wanna walk, or died, or needs some other help. However, FOLD has the advantage of not needing to be on PRIME plane. I don't feel your argument has merit. I'm not understanding why you don't see the cast time has any impact on RP. That's the issue; RP isn't hurt by cast times whatsoever. Playing druid, and being asked over and over during your playtime. It's so much like 'mommy, are we there yet?' ... every few minutes. Side pitstops get pretty frustrating. Druids who don't want to well, or clerics who don't want to be bothered..they'll get blacklisted. What other class types that have pivotal spells have this "obligation" to quest spells for the convenience of other players? Yet requesting the cast times be made more tolerable is seen as something to be ignored? When gods do see it as trivial, it does frustrate me. Ah well..

With Res spell, it's annoying to have the ***'s..and all the other 'features' the spell has.

As far as you not liking meditate being removed...what's the difference between that line of logic, (you not liking to NOT have to type it) than to have to not type 'shieldblock' or 'dodge' each round? They should be automatic. *shrug*

As for how you RP even on the boards, I think it's cute. I wasn't trying to offend if it came across that way.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:21 am

Lilira wrote:
Thilindel wrote:As it is, all the Tiamat gear in game has totally rendered lots of people as useless unless they have some. I mean come on.. the epic 17 hour fight... down to SIX?


03/10/02 Quest Additions
- Major changes to Tiamat and the Tiamat-zonelet behind Avernus, balancing
it against Sojourn 3 mob/player power standards. I and a few others agree
that Tiamat is definitely doable now, but only by the truely elite kind
of players and it will still take 4-8 real hours.

Miax originally designed Tiamat for 4-8 real hours. Just a little point of comparison to all the whiners who don't understand min/max. BTW if you play WoW, BT isn't even finished by 99.9% of the guilds in a week and I was in a guild that did it all in 2 nights with Hyjal. It's called progression.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 am

It's quoting thilindel instead of Lilira some reason - I didn't say that :P
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:51 pm

Shoosh, whiner!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:13 am

Dalar wrote:BTW if you play WoW, BT isn't even finished by 99.9% of the guilds in a week and I was in a guild that did it all in 2 nights with Hyjal. It's called progression.

Nice.

Part of me wishes I had the time available to devote to hardcore WoW progression. Then I kill that part of me with beer.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Emarin » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:46 am

Honestly, don't see these changes ever going in. 1) B/C of 2.0 2) there are way more important game play issues that should be resolved before this 3) re-balancing of zone/quest items would make more people happy than to see possibly 5 seconds cut off of a moonwell cast time. If i'm admin for this BBS, I'd just close the thread. Waste of time letting this thread continue to rant on and on.
Dartan tells you '*roll*'
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:49 am

Emarin wrote:Honestly, don't see these changes ever going in. 1) B/C of 2.0 2) there are way more important game play issues that should be resolved before this 3) re-balancing of zone/quest items would make more people happy than to see possibly 5 seconds cut off of a moonwell cast time. If i'm admin for this BBS, I'd just close the thread. Waste of time letting this thread continue to rant on and on.


Changing the spellcast time on moonwell would take like 10 minutes to fix, Toril 2.0 isn't coming for a long long long time, and none of the gameplay issues are being addressed atm I would assume.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Gurns » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:04 pm

Dalar wrote:Can you give more examples on why this game is more tic-tac-toeish?

Sure! By tic-tac-toeish, I mean simple, easy, and convenient. And unless you really, really mess up, you can't lose.

Dalar wrote:The only reason the game is getting easier is because people are finally realizing how to play this game.

There's some of that, but I think that's limited to a few people. I would say the average player of today is not as good as the average player of the past. Not because they are innately poorer players, but because the game doesn't demand they be as good.

The biggest reason the game has gotten easier is gear inflation, both in terms of stats and quantity. Top end gear of two or three years ago is now "mid-level crap". Multiply that difference by most slots for most people in a group, and fights are much easier. (Code changes have made some mobs harder, yeah, but most mobs aren't.) Fights are simpler just because they're easier – in an easy fight, you don't have to pay much attention to what you're doing, and if you don't use the best tactics or your timing is off, well, so what? You win, anyway.

Another reason the game has gotten simpler and easier is XP zones. They are simple zones (generally small and not confusing), easy (no risk of surprise, and almost no risk of dying), and convenient (you can get to one from almost any hometown without much trouble). I'd add Scardale here, easy and convenient xp for newbies. So instead of having to travel to a number of zones, and risk death around every corner (well, some corners), you can level up to 50 by going to only a couple of zones, and never have to die at all. More importantly for gameply, instead of having to gain more xp than you lose while zoning, you just go to an xp zone to make it up.

Another reason the game is easier and more convenient is that penalties for poor play are pretty much gone. With short ress effects and easy xp, dying is no biggie. And no one has to worry about losing gear, because CRs are trivial.

I mentioned some of the now-missing logistical challenges previously, so I'll just note that pretty much all such challenges have been eliminated.

The end result is the game has effectively become a shooter where you've got unlimited lives, and you don't lose your high powered laser, rocket launcher, or whatever if you get fragged. Simple, easy, convenient. Fun? It's like playing a game using all the cheat codes. Fun for a bit, but pretty soon, it's boring.

Notice that I haven't mentioned theme. The above could be considered from the perspective of gameplay issues. But a closer attention to the theme of the mud would also alert one to these problems.

I would say DnD is based on two premises:
1. A PC is a real person. An above average person, yeah, but a real person.
2. The PC inhabits a real world, and it's a harsh and dangerous world.
For this mud, there's a third premise: The world is based on FR.

Gear inflation, XP zones, lack of penalties, lack of logistical challenges – all of those things violate one or a combination of those premises. They violate the theme of the game.

A lot of other things violate the theme, too, in small ways and large. Not that I'd like to see a slavish adherence to theme. Things can be too harsh. There are some twinky things in some of the FR manuals (often where WotC themselves fail to adhere to the theme). And some conveniences are worth the trade-off. But anything leading to a weakening of theme should be considered carefully, and implemented cautiously. Because too much weakening of theme, even for good reasons, and you've lost the core, the integrity, of the game. You've lost the reason we got addicted to this mud. You get JustAnotherMUD, or worse, JustAnotherKiddieGame with lots of flash and trinkets for everyone and everyone's a winner, yay!

With that as my definition of theme:
Dalar wrote:Name 3 changes that have affected the theme within the past year.

Here are seven, within the last six months:

11/12/07 [Shevarash] Project Bandaid: Phase 2
The 'mounted combat' skill now allows a remount in combat, with a 1 round lag.

One round? The same length of time it takes to swing a sword? And without enemies taking advantage of your unguarded back as you mount? Easier fights due to more powerful players, 1. Real people in a dangerous reality, 0.

11/12/07 [Shevarash] Project Bandaid: Phase 2
Increased search success rate, decreased lag by 50%.

Conducting an exhaustive search of, say, a Great Hall or a large area of forest...it's not gonna be quick. Convenience, 1; Reality 0.

10/15/07 [Shar] Project Bandaid: Phase 1
The GCC channel is now open for business for general Gameplay related discussion!

I hear voices! From all around the world. Talking about where dragons are, and selling things, and looking for resses, and... Convenience, 1; Reality, 0. (Yeah, I know I can turn it off.)

10/15/07 [Shevarash] Project Bandaid: Phase 1
Increased experience gain across the board.

Harsh world, 0.

10/15/07 [Eilistraee] Project Bandaid: Phase 1
Justice has been turned off. Town guards will still repel invaders, but the rest is disabled.

Someone is able to slaughter citizens with no concerted response from, you know, those hired to guard them? Reality, 0.

Low level mobs (level 20 or lower) no longer regnerate hit points.

If the world is real, then NPCs are the same thing as PCs. But low-level PCs regen and low-level NPCs don't? Theme, 0.

08/01/07 [Cyric] Newbie maps...it's about time!
Thanks to Lilithelle, we now have newbie road maps online! Check 'em out at:

In quasi-medieval times generally, and I think FR in particular, maps of that scope would be rare and expensive. Not available to everyone for free. Convenience, 1; Theme, 0. This is the one example on this list (there are others on the mud) where I would agree that convenience should trump theme. But it's still a loss of theme, and thus is not an unmitigated positive addition.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:12 pm

I guess real people can cast magic spells and kill gigantic beasts.

Dying is still a penalty because you have to exp. You also risk losing a corpse. Me: 1 You: 0

The amount of time to remount is 1 round... 1 round is what, 5 seconds? 5 seconds = 5 minutes in game. Using one attack every 5 minutes is a pretty slow pace fight. Me: 2 You: 0

Search lag is maybe 3 seconds (3 minutes irl)? See the funny thing is I actually play the game and you don't. How do I fail 10 searches on a single treasure chest that's empty? So I looked for 30 minutes in a empty treasure chest to find a dagger. Me: 3 You: 0

GCC? Is this really the best you can do? I'm pretty sure all the gods can't hear every single person shout (petition) in FR. LFG has been in game forever. Acheron has been in game forever. OOC has been in game forever. Group-say from across the world has been around forever. Being able to shout and hear people from the other side of vast towns has been in forever. Tells have been in game forever. Me: 8 You: 0. I gave myself bonus points for you trying to scapegoat an additional channel that is used more than any other channel.

Exp is just boring and a time sink mechanic. Me: 9 You: 0

Mobs regenerating from fatal wounds makes no sense either. It's a game. Me: 10 You: 0

Justice. I'll give you that one. Me:10 You: 1

In quasi-medieval times people didn't fight massive monsters, dragons, and they also didn't cast spells. Also, I believe the Chinese built the printing press a long time ago.

For someone who practically breathes RP, you sure don't use your imagination. Try using it in your arguments because right now you're grasping for straws.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:46 pm

Shit! Dartan's on fire! Dalar +1 !!
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Postby Corth » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:41 am

I understand Gurns' point that taking out penalties is doing a disservice to the game. On the other hand, I have always thought that there were way too many time sinks on the mud. Its not fun or enjoyable sitting around in res effect.. but there needs to be a penalty for dying.

I would go along with the trend of lessening time sinks like res effect, search lag, etc... BUT, I would also decrease the amount of exp you get back from res. THEN I would get rid of all the bullshit no risk exp zones and make people get challenging exp. See.. we have gotten rid of time sinks, and have made the mud more challenging, all in one fell swoop.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:50 am

Unless I have bad luck, it already seems DS is worse for risk, meaning risk is higher. Taking 523 hps on one critic, then second entry on same mob, treant, was a 501 hp critic. Agility is 99 elf (three notches higher than human 100 dex) ..so owie!

For res, you're guaranteed to lose xp for dying. It's all relative to each person tho. When 4-5% lost xp from making successful res seems like a lot to one person, it's not enough for another. Maybe doing something different like changing a few spell slots to not available until 10 min after res..5 min, whatever. Then regain then. Not sure (but also keeping xp loss)
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Postby Gurns » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:42 am

Sorry, no points for you. :) I was talking about theme. You pretty much weren't.

Dalar wrote:I guess real people can cast magic spells and kill gigantic beasts.

Well, yeah! Third premise: The mud is based on FR. So, yes, in the mud world, in theme, real people can cast magic spells and kill gigantic beasts.

Dalar wrote:Dying is still a penalty because you have to exp. You also risk losing a corpse.

Eh. With highly-rewarding xp zones like DS and good triggersets, where's the suffering? Where's the pain? Boredom, yeah, but that's not a penalty. Boredom is an unintended result of poor game design.

And "risk losing a corpse"? *rofl* When's the last time anyone of high level lost a corpse? Failed a ress? Sure. Left an empty corpse behind because they couldn't be bothered? Sure. But a high level, equipped corpse that wasn't gotten because players couldn't do the CR?

Dalar wrote:The amount of time to remount is 1 round... 1 round is what, 5 seconds? 5 seconds = 5 minutes in game. Using one attack every 5 minutes is a pretty slow pace fight.

You're right, 1 attack every 5 minutes would be a very slow fight. Which is why your argument is not relevant. You are well aware that combat time doesn't match time according to the mud clock.

Dalar wrote:Search lag is maybe 3 seconds (3 minutes irl)?

Same irrelevant argument as above. The length of time it takes to execute any command has nothing to do with the 1 minute = 1 hour mud clock. The mud clock could be changed to 10 minutes = 1 hour or 1 hour = 1 hour, and the biggest change would be how often day/night events happened.

Dalar wrote:So I looked for 30 minutes in a empty treasure chest to find a dagger.

Irrelevant time argument again, but this is a good one to talk more about theme. Let us accept, hypothetically, your premise that time spent searching should exactly correspond to the mud clock.

I guess you didn't notice I specifically mentioned a Great Hall or a large area of forest. "30 minutes" to search those would be too short for a thorough search. But I could see that level of convenience being worth the loss of reality.

As to the treasure chest... If you use your imagination, you would realize that if something is just sitting in an empty chest, it can't be hidden. The only way for something to be hidden in an otherwise empty chest is for it to be in a secret compartment. Which must be hard to find, or it's hardly secret, is it?

Of course, we're all experienced, above average adventurers, so I'd agree that in theme, in most cases, 30 minutes would be too long to find a secret compartment in a chest. What I'd like to see is "search" take into account the size of the thing being searched. That would be very much in theme.

What we have now, of course, is "one size fits all". So it might take "3 to 30 minutes" to find something in a chest, but it also takes "3 to 30 minutes" to search a "250,000 square foot" area of wilderness. As simplifications go, that's a lot of "for convenience", and much less of "in theme". A good balance for gameplay? That's a different discussion.

Dalar wrote:GCC? Is this really the best you can do?

You requested things that were against theme. Most communication channels are against theme. As I mentioned, some things are worth it for the convenience. But they're still against theme.

As for it being the most used channel, what does that have to do with theme? Sure, GCC is popular. Allowing people to name themselves anything they wanted would be popular, too.

And your argument, they've "been in game forever"... *laugh* Just because something has been on the mud a long time doesn't mean it's in theme, or that it should stay as is. For example, there are quests that have been broken from the days of Toril 1. Do you think they should stay broken?

Dalar wrote:Mobs regenerating from fatal wounds makes no sense either.

I was talking about a slightly different issue, but you're right. To be completely in theme, the average PC and NPC should be the same. Since NPCs are more likely to recover from negative hps, unaided, than PCs, that's against theme.

It would, of course, be bad gameplay to be completely in theme in this instance, giving PCs and NPCs the same stats, hps, abilities, etc. That would make the game far too easy. But it would be more in theme if PCs and NPCs were closer in those areas, and NPCs were changed to compensate. A better AI, having more NPCs load in mixed-class groups, adding lots of wandering aggros in zones, having mobs loot corpses and equip themselves, things like that. That is, making NPCs act more like PCs. :)

Dalar wrote:Exp is just boring

Doing xp is boring these days, sure. But that's because of the (against theme) xp zones combined with no trophy system. When you have to play the real game to xp, when you have to gain more xp in zoning than you lose, when you're mostly going into areas where there is a good chance you will lose more xp than you gain, then xp is not at all boring. Frequently frustrating, but never boring! *grin*

The solution isn't to make xp even easier, more meaningless, more trivial than it is. The solution is to make it harder, to make xp something to be pleased and proud of attaining. After all, it's one of the basic scoring mechanisms of the game. If you stick with the theme of a harsh world with real adventurers, then xp should be a treasure that must be fought for and won, a treasure few can obtain! Right now? It's housekeeping.

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