More CM gripes

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dalar
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More CM gripes

Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:36 am

Can you check if a summoning stone is higher than maxload 1 or 2 and check if tiefling mask/belt is more than maxload 1? I can't say I'm thrilled with killing 9 mobs with adjusted HP and damage and not know the chest is up AND later having the chest load an hour later only to find it empty.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:31 am

Upped the load chance for those, and fixed a few others that might have caused problems. Not fixed on mainmud yet, but will get it moved over soon.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:34 am

Sigh, tiefling belt/mask are rare in the chest? Not sure what the point of that is since I can just locate them to determine if I want to kill Annina. This also forces players to actually kill Annina when they want to do parties. Also, any chance you can make Zetetha load more than 1 stone per pop? Maybe a chance to load 2-3? Having to farm 11 is quite tedious.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:38 pm

shalath wrote:
Dalar wrote:Sigh, tiefling belt/mask are rare in the chest? Not sure what the point of that is since I can just locate them to determine if I want to kill Annina. This also forces players to actually kill Annina when they want to do parties. Also, any chance you can make Zetetha load more than 1 stone per pop? Maybe a chance to load 2-3? Having to farm 11 is quite tedious.


Less griping, more farming. Finish the damn quest already, you guys are destroying the mud :-)

-simon


tiefling items aren't for a quest afaik and i think alot of people have alot to benefit from exping with us. I think raki got 32% in an hour or 1.5 hours just singing heal and that was at 41. Not bad for a non-damage class amirite?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby shalath » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:08 pm

Dalar wrote:Sigh, tiefling belt/mask are rare in the chest? Not sure what the point of that is since I can just locate them to determine if I want to kill Annina. This also forces players to actually kill Annina when they want to do parties. Also, any chance you can make Zetetha load more than 1 stone per pop? Maybe a chance to load 2-3? Having to farm 11 is quite tedious.


Less griping, more farming. Finish the damn quest already, you guys are destroying the mud :-)

-simon
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:10 pm

Nm was trying to be funny but they fixed it.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:15 am

No, they aren't rare in the chest. I meant I upped the max load for them since they were at 1.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:52 am

Marthammor wrote:No, they aren't rare in the chest. I meant I upped the max load for them since they were at 1.


Can my group get reimbursed for this? :(
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:41 am

Afraid not.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:31 am

Marthammor wrote:Afraid not.

Why? I basically get screwed for being the first to find an issue. When I had too much stuff in my inventory and the mob placed the item on water and it sunk, I was reimbursed for that. "We need to fix that, here's the item" was Shevarash's response. So you have identified in the "code" (if you count .zon files as coding) that there was possibly an unintended error. I'd say this is a similar circumstance.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:38 am

I'm not the original writer. I don't know if it was intended or not. To me, it looked bad so I changed it. It might very well have been the intention of the zone writer to make people rent out items.
Plenty other people have run into bugs with zones and not been reimbursed. I don't see what makes you any different. However, if Shev or someone higher then me wants to give you the items you feel you deserve, they are more then welcome to. I however, will not.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:19 am

Marthammor wrote:I'm not the original writer. I don't know if it was intended or not. To me, it looked bad so I changed it. It might very well have been the intention of the zone writer to make people rent out items.
Plenty other people have run into bugs with zones and not been reimbursed. I don't see what makes you any different. However, if Shev or someone higher then me wants to give you the items you feel you deserve, they are more then welcome to. I however, will not.


It may have been 4 years since I wrote a zone but it doesn't mean I don't fully understand when and why things should be maxload 1. If he wanted it to be maxload 1 and rare, he must have assumed the first person who got it would be the only one who got it. I can't think of one case where a rare is maxload 1.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:28 am

For the love of god do the spiders and Zetetha realy need to have 2x the hps the duergars have? This is pretty annoying having to farm 11 per quest.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:09 pm

A good compromise could be to downgrade the mobs, and then also downgrade the rewards.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:12 pm

Disoputlip wrote:A good compromise could be to downgrade the mobs, and then also downgrade the rewards.


Rewards suck for time/risk put in.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Zetetha

Postby Klandal » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:34 pm

Actually, the item Zetetha loads was already changed from its original load. It used to be a hidden rare on Zetetha, and you needed four (I think) to quest. After doing 15 or so with only 1 of the items loading, we convinced the areawriter to change it to always loading but requiring more. The intent was to have it take the same amount, but since I think the loading was off, I think it's far better to have them always load.

Keep things hard, just make the rewards represent the effort.
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Re: Zetetha

Postby Dalar » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:59 pm

Klandal wrote:Actually, the item Zetetha loads was already changed from its original load. It used to be a hidden rare on Zetetha, and you needed four (I think) to quest. After doing 15 or so with only 1 of the items loading, we convinced the areawriter to change it to always loading but requiring more. The intent was to have it take the same amount, but since I think the loading was off, I think it's far better to have them always load.

Keep things hard, just make the rewards represent the effort.


I really don't mind killing her 11x as much as them having 2x the hps of the duergar packs. 2x Rangers (43 and 50 ranger) are looting like 170+ arrows from her corpse after she dies. A normal duergar is 50-60 arrows. Numbers may be off but the general concept is there.

If she and her spiders had the same hps as a war party I'd be much happier.

Also, the rewards suck horrible balls. Whoever statted them probably used the calculator wrong because the items are worse than doing zones from that era.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Gukov » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:06 am

Somewhat off topic:

One of my major gripes about CM is related to the thematic discussion in the moonwell/res thread. There are so many mobs in CM that should be aggro to some or all races/aligns but are not flagged as such. It's pretty clearly all about xp in most cases. Generally, most of the upper mine should hate on evils, most of the lower, goodies. Beastly mobs should just hate on everyone.

A lot of the thematic stuff I don't much care one way or the other, like cast times and other fairly abstract stuff. Duergars and trolls attacking dwarves and elves should be pretty much set in stone tho.
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Postby Pril » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:08 am

Gukov wrote:Somewhat off topic:

One of my major gripes about CM is related to the thematic discussion in the moonwell/res thread. There are so many mobs in CM that should be aggro to some or all races/aligns but are not flagged as such. It's pretty clearly all about xp in most cases. Generally, most of the upper mine should hate on evils, most of the lower, goodies. Beastly mobs should just hate on everyone.

A lot of the thematic stuff I don't much care one way or the other, like cast times and other fairly abstract stuff. Duergars and trolls attacking dwarves and elves should be pretty much set in stone tho.


Issue is if you go for this you have to change the whole mud this way. DS would be 90% agro evil. Any elven mob would attack evils on site. would It would destroy evil xpage in cm on the boots the paladin wanders Cm with her underlings.
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Postby Gukov » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:18 am

Pril wrote:
Gukov wrote:Somewhat off topic:

One of my major gripes about CM is related to the thematic discussion in the moonwell/res thread. There are so many mobs in CM that should be aggro to some or all races/aligns but are not flagged as such. It's pretty clearly all about xp in most cases. Generally, most of the upper mine should hate on evils, most of the lower, goodies. Beastly mobs should just hate on everyone.

A lot of the thematic stuff I don't much care one way or the other, like cast times and other fairly abstract stuff. Duergars and trolls attacking dwarves and elves should be pretty much set in stone tho.


Issue is if you go for this you have to change the whole mud this way. DS would be 90% agro evil. Any elven mob would attack evils on site. would It would destroy evil xpage in cm on the boots the paladin wanders Cm with her underlings.


But the elves are druids, druids understand how us evils are needed to balance the world out! And Annina loading would just make it interesting... she doesn't wander in the south and west parts anyways so xp wouldn't be killed off completely.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:41 am

Marthammor wrote:I'm not the original writer. I don't know if it was intended or not. To me, it looked bad so I changed it. It might very well have been the intention of the zone writer to make people rent out items.
Plenty other people have run into bugs with zones and not been reimbursed. I don't see what makes you any different. However, if Shev or someone higher then me wants to give you the items you feel you deserve, they are more then welcome to. I however, will not.


I don't have the files in front of me, but the tiefling mask and belt should not be maxload 1. - Brandobaris.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:57 am

And yet they were, but aren't now (at least on testmud).
My stance is still that you aren't getting reimbursed.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:32 am

Marthammor wrote:And yet they were, but aren't now (at least on testmud).
My stance is still that you aren't getting reimbursed.


That's cool I'm use to finding bugs and getting 0 reimbursement for it. That's what alpha testers do. Sure glad someone filled Kia's spot. The position had been vacant in a while.

I'm sure if Tia gear had been maxload 1 or if I was in imphras I would have gotten that reimbursement. Thank you for renewing my disdain of this game.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:28 am

By the way, see you again in Silverymoon. That place is destined to make me quit and 3rd time is a charm. I honestly can't wait.

Heh, someone asked me if Lilithelle gets a cookie for SM making me quit. I thought that was funny since screwing up 3 rares in the FK epic quest yields a cookie.
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Postby Corth » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:21 pm

God favoritism?! Now add in some artifacts and politics and the mud will be interesting again! :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Ambar » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:24 pm

....
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Postby Osheara » Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:05 pm

Dartan, I think it's a shame you are discouraging people from making new areas. According to all your posts, you would limit the types of quests or zones to fit within your ideals.

If you don't like those sorts of quests and if you have such expectations from one builder, then you assume you know what to expect and just don't do them. Go encourage more people to create other types of new areas that are the sort of things you would like to see, or make some of your own.

I appreciate the fact that Lilithelle is making ANY attempt to freshen up the island for players, and it opens up a whole realm of projects for those people who are interested in doing them.

Feedback is one thing, but to actively deject these efforts publicly is horrible. Having experience is one thing, but your opinion is not the 'end all' of how everyone on this mud likes to play. As frustrating as some of these quests you constantly complain about may be, there are a number of people who play who do them despite the frustrations and, heaven forbid, actually enjoy them.

I try to hold my tongue, but it's gotten to the point of just silliness.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:39 pm

Osheara wrote:Dartan, I think it's a shame you are discouraging people from making new areas. According to all your posts, you would limit the types of quests or zones to fit within your ideals.

If you don't like those sorts of quests and if you have such expectations from one builder, then you assume you know what to expect and just don't do them. Go encourage more people to create other types of new areas that are the sort of things you would like to see, or make some of your own.

I appreciate the fact that Lilithelle is making ANY attempt to freshen up the island for players, and it opens up a whole realm of projects for those people who are interested in doing them.

Feedback is one thing, but to actively deject these efforts publicly is horrible. Having experience is one thing, but your opinion is not the 'end all' of how everyone on this mud likes to play. As frustrating as some of these quests you constantly complain about may be, there are a number of people who play who do them despite the frustrations and, heaven forbid, actually enjoy them.

I try to hold my tongue, but it's gotten to the point of just silliness.


I agree. I do believe quests should make sense. FK does not. You should hold your tongue until you actually know the full storyline of what's going on in FK rather than just being a follower. Apparently most of you have Moritheilitis where you think you know quests just by watching someone (Morena) do them. There is MUCH more to FK than just busting it and getting the easy ass loot all of you see. Sadly, the easy loot is the best loot. So apparently quests that take multiple rares and multiple FK busts are suppose to be worse than single rare kills that are incredibly easy to do (smoke invasion for start).

Other than Uxur's group, there is nobody doing FK. How do I know this? He's the only other person who actually busts FK. Ross has completely stopped doing it because of the waste of time the quest is.

You ever realize why there are very few people who have done FK or GD? Because the rewards are not worth the time. I commend Lilithelle's wit and thought for making FK and GD, but they are basically a waste of time. If time vs reward and risk vs reward aren't a basis for deciding gear then this game is doomed.

I would never build another zone since Dugmaren is gone. After finally seeing the final quests for FK and GD I gave up hope on the Areas sphere and will become a more vulgar Corth on the BBS.

If Morena actually logged into the BBS to post and say I'm wrong, maybe Nerox, or Uxur, I would actually listen. Until then, you guys have no clue what you're talking about.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:10 pm

Interesting how BS swords and Khanjaris are constantly sought after and raced to at boot. Both quests are easier than FK and GD yet yield rewards that increase the class power by 50-100%. Both quests have been done multiple times with multiple people competiting for it. FK's only competition is me vs uxur's group and neither of us have finished it.

Solution? Upgrade FK rewards.
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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:12 pm

A more vulgar me.. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Osheara » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:04 pm

I find it interesting that despite being such a 'follower' you still were practically begging me for the answers to FK when you still just beginning them, then...actually got upset I wouldn't just hand them over. I have no problem helping people for whatever, that's what I do. But you complain the 'hard' stuff is easy to begin with, why should I make it even easier doing the exact thing you bitched about to begin with?

I don't quest much here, I don't have the attention span for it. I never claimed to, but I enjoy little quests, and even I could figure out some of FK. But you're right, I was there, for months waiting for the pop..going in when something would load...learning the rares, and having a blast doing it.

I love the fact that Finn isn't broken anymore, I love the damned cookie. Get over yourself and let other people enjoy what they would. Give your comments, Bring things to the gods attention, and move on. Stop bringing everything back to your own bitterness and day-to-day frustrations.

Oshy rant over and ignoring the BBS yet again.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:16 pm

Osheara wrote:I find it interesting that despite being such a 'follower' you still were practically begging me for the answers to FK when you still just beginning them, then...actually got upset I wouldn't just hand them over. I have no problem helping people for whatever, that's what I do. But you complain the 'hard' stuff is easy to begin with, why should I make it even easier doing the exact thing you bitched about to begin with?

I don't quest much here, I don't have the attention span for it. I never claimed to, but I enjoy little quests, and even I could figure out some of FK. But you're right, I was there, for months waiting for the pop..going in when something would load...learning the rares, and having a blast doing it.

I love the fact that Finn isn't broken anymore, I love the damned cookie. Get over yourself and let other people enjoy what they would. Give your comments, Bring things to the gods attention, and move on. Stop bringing everything back to your own bitterness and day-to-day frustrations.

Oshy rant over and ignoring the BBS yet again.


I don't remember being mad at you in particular, do you have a log of this? I'm pretty sure I remember you telling me you weren't at liberty to tell me what I needed to know (I believe location of the goggles and how lame the epic shield quest was). I do remember being mad at Ross for playing dumb, but even then his act just encouraged me to find the solution even faster.

So you like 1 quest from the zone... which is cool flavor and is clearly meant for Sotana. How is that even an argument against my comments about the "epic quest" making any sense or the majority of the rare intensive quests in that zone yielding crap? I'm 100% sure if BS swords and khanjaris had 0 procs but were 8d5 +5 +5 for 1hers people would bitch they don't have procs.
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:23 pm

Randar's weapons don't have procs.


*flee*
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Postby Dalar » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:26 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Randar's weapons don't have procs.


*flee*


Regarding that, I don't think the creator had time/will to write a proc OR didn't have enough points to make a proc that would be good enough. I also believe the points didn't go into the gear because the items are already badass.
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Postby torkur » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:11 am

Randar's quest has a weapon with no proc (LAME for time versus reward), a wristband which is 1 hitroll and a few -svpet over a MUCH easier to get wristwear (LAME given the global useless rares and miniquests for randars in time versus reward), and a gay as f*ck mask which somehow gives max agility and hp. It has NOTHING to do with the theme and only serves to waste people's time. It is also argueably not as good as the hulburg one (double the hp, who needs more ac really per you) unless you happen to notch agility with it. Time versus reward is completely broken in the zone and it doesn't give anything worth using in the subquests at all. The Twink exp in it is also what is breaking the mud WAY more than Pship or DS as invis allows you to wander about free and clear while a rogue and ele can get 25% exp per hour at level 50 in a 2 man group.

Randar's uses tons of useless items gathered from all parts of the map, including a retarded IC rare that last 5 minutes the one time per month it loads at pop. Only Lilithelle, Teba, Pidibeple, or possibly you on a good day really get to it, so it's really beyond useless to try this lameass quest unless you get their help or trade for the item. The headwear in the quest iteself is a perfect example of how retarded your zone is as the way to find the storm priests without getting lucky is either wait for ppl on gcc to shout it out or gate prime and have a rogue track. How retarded of a zone creator to force people to do that time versus reward.....

You sure you REALLY wanna compare FK and GD to how useless the zone you made is? I can go on and on about Randars and have the complete quest in all it's risk vs reward f*cked up goodness....or maybe you can realize that people like doing different things for different reasons and unless your zone gets pulled I don't see FK or GD or actually well done zones having any chance of it.

Edit: Told to remove item names.
Last edited by torkur on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:56 am

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Postby Dalar » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:29 am

torkur wrote:Randar's quest has a weapon with no proc (LAME for time versus reward), a wristband which is 1 hitroll and a few -svpet over shining steel vambrace (LAME given the global useless rares and miniquests for randars in time versus reward), and a gay as f*ck mask which is made of quicksilver which somehow gives max agility and hp. It has NOTHING to do with the theme and only serves to waste people's time. It is also argueably not as good as the eye of the hive mother (25hp, who needs more ac really per you) unless you happen to notch agility with it. Time versus reward is completely broken in the zone and it doesn't give anything worth using in the subquests at all. The Twink exp in it is also what is breaking the mud WAY more than Pship or DS as invis allows you to wander about free and clear while a rogue and ele can get 25% exp per hour at level 50 in a 2 man group.

Randar's uses tons of useless items gathered from all parts of the map, including a retarded IC rare that last 5 minutes the one time per month it loads at pop. Only Lilithelle, Teba, Pidibeple, or possibly you on a good day really get to the falchion, so it's really beyond useless to try this lameass quest unless you get their help or trade for the item. The sand giant veil iteself is a perfect example of how retarded your zone is as the way to find the storm priests without getting lucky is either wait for ppl on gcc to shout it out or gate prime and have a rogue track. How retarded of a zone creator to force people to do that time versus reward.....

You sure you REALLY wanna compare FK and GD to how useless the zone you made is? I can go on and on about Randars and have the complete quest in all it's risk vs reward f*cked up goodness....or maybe you can realize that people like doing different things for different reasons and unless your zone gets pulled I don't see FK or GD or actually well done zones having any chance of it.


Quicksilver mask is by far one of the best masks in game due to it being !bits, and any gnome can reach elven agi if they have 100 agi naturally or through stats. At the time, it was the only reasonable maxagi item to wear in unison with 2x flaming efreeti rings, which puts elven warriors at -160 AC. The last ac notch does incredible things. Ever seen Lyni tank 7x Rowans without getting hit over multiple rounds? Or Lyni tanking a war party or Zetetha group? Yea, horrible item imo.

Green dragonscale wristguard. There aren't many high ac warrior wrists with hitroll and -sv para, especially at that time. AC 15 2 hitroll is decent, but combination of sv para from wearing two should max your sv para for a tank, letting you wear opals instead to benefit from both ac and hp. There weren't that many hp wrists to begin with for warriors if I remember correctly. hitroll/sv para were a little lacking and I didn't want to put hp/svpara or hitroll/hp, so I took the two cheapest and added it together. Pointwise it's the lowest cost item in that bunch.

Gloves. They are nobits and one of the few ac/hp/svrod at the time. I believe the only one came from TTF and it was a 0 ac mask. While many don't wear it out of ignorance, it is an extremely good item to have in certain situations.

The weapon, Marthammor mudmailed me about it but I believe I didn't want to give it a proc b/c I was either too lazy and playing WoW beta, or I couldn't think of anything worth the amount of points left.

As for the falchion only being able to be attained by certain players, I think that's more of a player issue than an areas issue. I've done storm giant veil without the help of GCC. It's not my problem that you can't nor have the resources in front of you to do it. Then again I was one of the first to have finished the bard band quest 2x as well.

With the Randar's quest only taking 2-3 rares, the rest can be done in one boot. I think the time vs reward is pretty damn good for 3 items that were basically game-changing at the time. Elven tanks getting their last ac notch, tanks freeing up many slots for hp/ac gear by getting a high amount of AC, hitroll (elven natural 7 hitroll, valhalla/ebony 4-5, 2x wristguards 6, bless 2 = 19-20 hitroll), and sv para from just 2 items, and one of the only best sv rod items in game.

Now if you want to compare it to FK, you are forced to do FK every boot to have access to the rares. Having to get 6 other people to bust is much easier than running around the world until you find 3x storm priests or any of the other items for talismans.

I'm pretty sure my items are awesome and are great in many builds where spells can't be a factor. What spells give -sv rod, -sv para, or maxagi? Bard song doesn't count because you're giving up heal/slow. FK shield gives less hp but more AC. AC comes with most items and is attainable through armor/bark and in amounts higher than the shield.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby torkur » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:45 pm

You expect an elven tank to wear jot rings over hp rings? What planet do you live on? Also unless you rolled on the brief time of godly rolls, alot of the time you've had to settle for less than maxed agility and had to go with other sources. Lyni can tank rowans well yes.....so can Acoran with 88 agility while wearing a sense life mask while having healing and layhands for double your hitpoints.

Jot wrists have been popular for quite a while for hp and svpar, nearly soloable, and better for a tank not pretending to do damage.

Gloves I forgot about originally......go to hulbrug, MUCH nicer. Or do smoke gloves. Or wear jot gloves.

The weapon sucks, agreed.



Randar's can be done over a few boots- minus the rares people all jump on in the zones you need and the ones you must get at pop. FK takes 3 people to bust, not 6, and you can locate damn near every rare. They load at pop so you can periodically check. It as a BETTER wristguard rareload, a BETTER mask from a rareload quest, a shield that is the BEST cleric shield/held slot in the game, BETTER weapons both a 1hander quest AND a 2hander non-quest, an earring which your zone lacks, POTIONS and COOKIES that yield spells not available to the classes that can use them, and gloves that I personally find better.

Seems kind of like Randars is obsolete now and when it came in. I can gather more than 4 items in TONS less time which are better from older zones AND from FK. But yea, FK sucks.....leave it to the people who like the nice miniquest items.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:19 pm

torkur wrote:You expect an elven tank to wear jot rings over hp rings? What planet do you live on? Also unless you rolled on the brief time of godly rolls, alot of the time you've had to settle for less than maxed agility and had to go with other sources. Lyni can tank rowans well yes.....so can Acoran with 88 agility while wearing a sense life mask while having healing and layhands for double your hitpoints.

Jot wrists have been popular for quite a while for hp and svpar, nearly soloable, and better for a tank not pretending to do damage.

Gloves I forgot about originally......go to hulbrug, MUCH nicer. Or do smoke gloves. Or wear jot gloves.

The weapon sucks, agreed.



Randar's can be done over a few boots- minus the rares people all jump on in the zones you need and the ones you must get at pop. FK takes 3 people to bust, not 6, and you can locate damn near every rare. They load at pop so you can periodically check. It as a BETTER wristguard rareload, a BETTER mask from a rareload quest, a shield that is the BEST cleric shield/held slot in the game, BETTER weapons both a 1hander quest AND a 2hander non-quest, an earring which your zone lacks, POTIONS and COOKIES that yield spells not available to the classes that can use them, and gloves that I personally find better.

Seems kind of like Randars is obsolete now and when it came in. I can gather more than 4 items in TONS less time which are better from older zones AND from FK. But yea, FK sucks.....leave it to the people who like the nice miniquest items.


Yea, the thing is, Lyni can tank it without heals nor does she need a horse. I have logs of tanking 16 izan guards (when I wasn't weighed down by reduce/tyrant shield) and taking 0 damage per round. Of course an elven tank will wear jot invasion rings. When your mitigation is 95% and you rarely get crit, why wear extra hps? I'm not going to tank a dragon because there is usually someone with higher hps.

The FK shield is only the best item in game when you don't have a ranger/druid and fighting in a zone with multiple switchers. It takes 6 months to do. I could make a 1 year quest that gives an ac 6 4 agi component bag and you can rave about how it is the best item, but that's not worth the time vs reward. In short, the time vs reward for this item is extremely poor compared to other quests in game which has been my entire point throughout the past month or two on this BBS. The shield fucking sucks in some situations and is mediocre in others. It is not the best item in game for the slot for the time vs reward when compared to BS swords, khanjaris, or even fucking Windsong/Swiftwind, which are much better in many more situations. The shield should be given a proc that makes it unique and worth the time spent JUST like khanjari/bs swords/windsong/swiftwind.

The steel stone bracelet is not that great because warriors need hitroll to hit with valhalla or ebony. I'm pretty sure the quicksilver mask is much better than Fianna mask for mage/cleric/tank. If you're really thinking the quicksilver mask is not one of the best masks in game and comparing it to Fianna mask... yea I'm pretty sure people can make their own opinions about that.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Dalar » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:38 pm

Actually I'm done talking to you Torkur. There are more people wearing quicksilver mask, there is nobody doing FK besides Uxur and I until we finish our shields, and I'm pretty sure I know why svrod is a great situational item to have. Lilithelle will not fix the rewards and the areas sphere will just let the easy ass rewards remain and the worthless rewards worthless.

The whole "but nobody knows how to the quests" or "it's not posted everywhere" is the most stupidest response I've ever heard. When I asked around about how to do FK and nobody knew/would share, I just did it myself.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Kissa » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:12 pm

Jot wrists have been popular for quite a while for hp and svpar, nearly soloable, and better for a tank not pretending to do damage.

Gloves I forgot about originally......go to hulbrug, MUCH nicer. Or do smoke gloves. Or wear jot gloves.


er in my opinion.. 2x nightshade with a total of -4 ac.. vs 2 randar wristgaurd with a total of -30 ac.. randar wristguard rapes the nightshades like no other.

who cares about a 24 hp gain when you only have ac of -100ish. my troll can tank duergar scouts and raiders with no spells, no healing, just with about -160 ac without needing to stop to heal. when compared to when i put on full hp gear with my troll wearing close to 1200 hp but only about -110 or -120 ac not spelled, i get hit, and can maybe do two or three scouts.. probably cant even do raiders.. without having to stop and rest.

hulburg gloves have nice hp yes. but on a tank they arent great. ac of only 6 on the hand slot sucks kinda bad :(. Personally even on my mage i dont wear my hulburg gloves. Id rather wear troll skin gloves from fk or something with a tad more ac..

and im pretty sure... that the randar mask is the best tank mask in game.. possibly best mage mask if you are going an ac build as well..
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:22 am

Dalar wrote:
Yea, the thing is, Lyni can tank it without heals nor does she need a horse. I have logs of tanking 16 izan guards (when I wasn't weighed down by reduce/tyrant shield) and taking 0 damage per round. Of course an elven tank will wear jot invasion rings. When your mitigation is 95% and you rarely get crit, why wear extra hps? I'm not going to tank a dragon because there is usually someone with higher hps.

The FK shield is only the best item in game when you don't have a ranger/druid and fighting in a zone with multiple switchers. It takes 6 months to do. I could make a 1 year quest that gives an ac 6 4 agi component bag and you can rave about how it is the best item, but that's not worth the time vs reward. In short, the time vs reward for this item is extremely poor compared to other quests in game which has been my entire point throughout the past month or two on this BBS. The shield fucking sucks in some situations and is mediocre in others. It is not the best item in game for the slot for the time vs reward when compared to BS swords, khanjaris, or even fucking Windsong/Swiftwind, which are much better in many more situations. The shield should be given a proc that makes it unique and worth the time spent JUST like khanjari/bs swords/windsong/swiftwind.

The steel stone bracelet is not that great because warriors need hitroll to hit with valhalla or ebony. I'm pretty sure the quicksilver mask is much better than Fianna mask for mage/cleric/tank. If you're really thinking the quicksilver mask is not one of the best masks in game and comparing it to Fianna mask... yea I'm pretty sure people can make their own opinions about that.



Yes Dartan, you have a massive pipi. Take off the shield to lose shieldblock (like removing the horse does for mounted combat) and compare then too. Also please tank tiamat (or any spellcaster in a group) with your mighty 550hp elven warrior to show us all the power of your mighty quicksilver mask.


You win. Please continue your 3 month long rant on how FK sucks as you continue to do the zone over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I'm sure it shows how horrible the rewards are when you race to it at boot. I can't wait to read it so that every time I want to buckle down and finish my zone.....I can then pop in COD4 instead of wasting my time.
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:29 am

Kissa wrote:
Jot wrists have been popular for quite a while for hp and svpar, nearly soloable, and better for a tank not pretending to do damage.

Gloves I forgot about originally......go to hulbrug, MUCH nicer. Or do smoke gloves. Or wear jot gloves.


er in my opinion.. 2x nightshade with a total of -4 ac.. vs 2 randar wristgaurd with a total of -30 ac.. randar wristguard rapes the nightshades like no other.

who cares about a 24 hp gain when you only have ac of -100ish. my troll can tank duergar scouts and raiders with no spells, no healing, just with about -160 ac without needing to stop to heal. when compared to when i put on full hp gear with my troll wearing close to 1200 hp but only about -110 or -120 ac not spelled, i get hit, and can maybe do two or three scouts.. probably cant even do raiders.. without having to stop and rest.

hulburg gloves have nice hp yes. but on a tank they arent great. ac of only 6 on the hand slot sucks kinda bad :(. Personally even on my mage i dont wear my hulburg gloves. Id rather wear troll skin gloves from fk or something with a tad more ac..

and im pretty sure... that the randar mask is the best tank mask in game.. possibly best mage mask if you are going an ac build as well..


For soloing I completely agree with everything you said.

In zoning, especially as a troll, the extra hp will matter when the fire spells start flying. There are also TONS of high ac items in the game to make up for it. Wearing PI armor for one comes to mind for more ac than you really need and extra HP, or musp quest dragon armor if you want a very nice mix of saves, ac, hp, and prots.
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Postby Kissa » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:06 am

if you have trouble tanking one mob, then what will happen when you have to tank more than one :)

Yes, you will have spells in zone, but spells drop, and the enchanter cant always respell immediately. so tanking with !spells and not taking incredible damage is crucial.. and can only be done with decent AC.

In zoning, especially as a troll, the extra hp will matter when the fire spells start flying.


True, but you dont need so much extra hp that you will be sacrificing your AC for just a few extra hit points.

if u really wanna go all out hp though, dont use jot bracelets, use seashell bracelets, they ugly, but have better hps .. and i dont think they are too hard to get.

There are also TONS of high ac items in the game to make up for it. Wearing PI armor for one comes to mind for more ac than you really need and extra HP, or musp quest dragon armor if you want a very nice mix of saves, ac, hp, and prots.


true.. i geuss it depends on whether the player wants to sacrifice slots etc etc. but the wristguards are def the best ac wear for that slot, same with the mask.
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:17 am

Heh, this debate goes way over my head.. but I will say this. When it comes to the nuts and bolts mechanics of the game, what works and what doesn't, there was never ever anyone better than dartan. However much you might want to get over on him, cause he can certainly be an ass (doubt he would deny it), he is just about always right. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:23 am

I'll agree with Corth. Most of the time, when it comes to the strict mechanics of the game, Dartan is the acknowledged expert, hands down.

However...

What Osheara was trying to point out earlier, is that there's a very large human aspect to this game that often overrides the mechanics, and on many occasions what a "strictly mechanics" person might see as the obvious answer isn't even in the ballpark. In understanding the numbers and stats and black and white of the game, Dartan is incomparable. When it comes to respect for the individuality and diversity of the people who play the game, though, Dartan's... well... I don't think there's any way I can express the depths of his lack without coming off as truly insulting, and I'm going to stop trying. As brilliant as he is, he's incapable of grasping the concept of others enjoying different things for different reasons.

Brilliance is a wonderful thing, but I thought the builder of the zone was pretty darned brilliant, and the work put into it was really brilliant, and it provided many hours of fun and frustration; there's no reason to be derisive and demeaning when offering criticism of it, and there's no valid point in expecting it to be constructed to one person's demands, or to belittle the opinions of those who happen to like it just as it is.
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:21 am

There has been tension here as long as I can remember between (for lack of a better way of categorizing them) the power mudders and the social mudders. Those who want to roll over a challenging zone with as few people as possible, have the most kickass gear, and possess knowledge about the game that others do not, and those who want to meet up monday nights and explore a road zone, do some RP'ing, and basically have a nice time together. Its been years since I played this game, but around when I quit I felt that the balance had swung for far too long towards the social mudders. For that reason, I am usually inclined to support Dartan and those like him who focus more on improvements that can be made to the gaming aspect of the mud. You are correct Ashiwi about the importance of diversity among players. However, it is a certain type of player that has been neglected, and its not you or Osheara or the others in this thread who love the experience, even if the reward is garbage.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:21 am

Corth wrote:There has been tension here as long as I can remember between (for lack of a better way of categorizing them) the power mudders and the social mudders. Those who want to roll over a challenging zone with as few people as possible, have the most kickass gear, and possess knowledge about the game that others do not, and those who want to meet up monday nights and explore a road zone, do some RP'ing, and basically have a nice time together. Its been years since I played this game, but around when I quit I felt that the balance had swung for far too long towards the social mudders. For that reason, I am usually inclined to support Dartan and those like him who focus more on improvements that can be made to the gaming aspect of the mud. You are correct Ashiwi about the importance of diversity among players. However, it is a certain type of player that has been neglected, and its not you or Osheara or the others in this thread who love the experience, even if the reward is garbage.


Give me a break.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:38 am

Birile wrote:
Corth wrote:There has been tension here as long as I can remember between (for lack of a better way of categorizing them) the power mudders and the social mudders. Those who want to roll over a challenging zone with as few people as possible, have the most kickass gear, and possess knowledge about the game that others do not, and those who want to meet up monday nights and explore a road zone, do some RP'ing, and basically have a nice time together. Its been years since I played this game, but around when I quit I felt that the balance had swung for far too long towards the social mudders. For that reason, I am usually inclined to support Dartan and those like him who focus more on improvements that can be made to the gaming aspect of the mud. You are correct Ashiwi about the importance of diversity among players. However, it is a certain type of player that has been neglected, and its not you or Osheara or the others in this thread who love the experience, even if the reward is garbage.


Give me a break.


Explain? If Khanjari had a crappier proc nobody would do it. Same with BS swords. If Randar's weapons had procs people would do the quest more. If FK shield wasn't mediocre people would check FK. Give me a break Corth I hate it when you're right too.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'

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