What's fun?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Gurns
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What's fun?

Postby Gurns » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:01 pm

Sure, I'd like to see new content, faster updates, more changes, all that. But it's my opinion that you're fooling yourself if you think any of that will magically make the game fun again, if it's not fun for you now.

Nothing the imms do is going to change the core of the game. It's fighting mobs. And exploring and questing and RP and socializing, if you're into any of that, but the thing you do most is fight mobs. When I first started playing, every fight was exciting, thrilling, dangerous! That quickly passed, many fights became routine, but there were always lots of fights that were fun, one way or another. The doing of the game, the playing, was fun in and of itself.

But now? What I read on the BBS is that fighting is "a grind". Xping? Grind for levels. Zoning? Grind for gear.

Well, yeah. I mean, you've done it a billion times. You've got the whole thing down. Even new zones, with "new" fights, they're just variations on what you've done before, so once they're figured out, boring. How can it not be a grind?

But that "grind" is the game. That's what mudding is. Killing mobs for a reward.

Maybe you still get a kick out of getting gear. But isn't the thrill of even the best piece of new gear small, compared to what it once was. And doing something boring, something you don't enjoy doing, just for a small reward? I call that "work", not "play".

What's going to change that? Better gear? Faster killing of mobs or leveling? No. Those changes have been happening for years now. The gear has gotten more and more powerful. There are lots of mobs that give more xp than there ever were. The xp required to level has been reduced. Has all that made the game more fun for you?

Temporarily, maybe. But, like a new zone, only briefly. The bandaid fixes went in, and there were a lot of them, and people "enjoyed the game again" for how long? A couple of weeks, maybe.

What about 2.0? 2.0 looks like a big change! Lots of new skills and spells. Lots of new ways to build your character. Yes, it will be fun.

For six months. You all are good enough to figure it all out in that time, to make it all routine, to get it all written into your triggers. And everything will become a grind again.

You may be able to find ways to make the game fun for yourself. Me, I go away for many months, until the game is somewhat fresh again. For you, it might be zoning just for the fun of it. Or hanging out with friends. Maybe you want to collect every dagger on the mud, or go around solving all the quests on your own without looking up the answer.

There's lots to do, it's a huge mud. If you can't find fun now, I don't see that there's anything the imms can change or add to fix that.

But I could be wrong. In which case, I'm curious: What's still fun on the mud for you? What do you enjoy doing, while you're doing it? What are the moments that energized you or made you shout "Yeah!" (or whatever) or made you smile? I'm not asking "what keeps you coming back", that might be habit or friends or your autodialer. When are you having fun?

And if you want to say "high end zoning", perhaps you could be more specific? Because a lot of different things are involved in that over some length of time, and I wouldn't think you find every part, every minute, fun or "worth it".
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:19 pm

Time vs reward LET'S START THIS CONVERSATION UP AGAIN.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
avak
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Postby avak » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:02 pm

You could start by asking yourself what you found to be compelling enough to keep you playing the game.

For me personally, it had everything to do with the number of people playing. Not that I was a highly social player, but the players were the ones that made it a dynamic experience. I found the various personalities, the in-fighting, the prestige, the legends and stories...all of that was compelling.

Trade, guilds, guild halls, kingdom code, artifacts, insanely hard quests...that all sounds compelling to me.

The point has been made well and often...someone should at least try something even though it may be way too late.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:24 pm

I like the contrast between Gurns' post and Avak's. Gurns describes a Shevarash mud. You do the same zones, to get the same gear, with your 10th level 50 alt. Then you ask: what is fun? Avak describes a Miax mud. Drama, artifacts, legends. The egalitiarian concept, promoted by Shevarash, emphasized the biggest weakness of the game.. the actual game mechanics. The dramatic concept exemplified by Miax transcended the actual game mechanics and made the game into a life and death struggle. Thats what I mean when I say that Shevarash has slowly choked all the fun out of this game during his tenure.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:26 pm

What I thought was a decent idea and still do is to have some zones have treasure types, rather than specific items. A.K.A. SPoB.

While SPoB is fun, it's also huge risk in CR. So that particular zone, I'd have to have an open time to do and not worry about work. This way zones would be done for fun or adventure, rather than having to do it because a specific piece of EQ you want.
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:31 pm

Corth wrote:I like the contrast between Gurns' post and Avak's. Gurns describes a Shevarash mud. You do the same zones, to get the same gear, with your 10th level 50 alt. Then you ask: what is fun? Avak describes a Miax mud. Drama, artifacts, legends. The egalitiarian concept, promoted by Shevarash, emphasized the biggest weakness of the game.. the actual game mechanics. The dramatic concept exemplified by Miax transcended the actual game mechanics and made the game into a life and death struggle. Thats what I mean when I say that Shevarash has slowly choked all the fun out of this game during his tenure.


except going back to the miax way of doing things wont change anything about this game

it will still be the same small handful of people that currently own all the top tier gear across multiple alts getting all the lovely artifacts and legendary gear.

there really is no incentive for anyone else to attempt to catch up. there are too many options in the form of other games now - across all genres. up until 1999 when this mud was - as a game - better than all 4 mmorpg options available at that time (everquest, meridian 59, ultima online, lineage) people were more willing to run around as low man on the totem pole knowing they would never, ever see the spanky gear or even ever see tiamat because this was a superior game

now, there are other game options that are on par. the thing that keeps people here are the social connections.

this game needed fixes. nobody can deny that necros before their initial pass that changed the undead system werent stupidly overpowered. i was at drabyl's house the day that one necro solo'd the 2nd gatehouse in jot. he used to live near us (someone PLEASE tell me his name, i swear i have alzheimers anymore) with us being me, tesi and drabyl and we would on occaison all go play at drabyl's house (cause his parents were richer than god) dragging our desktops with us. i'm glad that was fixed. can you imagine necros having vampires and stoneskin casting wraiths now? or conjurors being able to heal their fire pets? or fire pets with 4k hp? warriors dual wielding glimmering mithril bastardswords - the best 1h in the game at that point?

fixes needed to be made. some we dont agree with, others we embraced. it's foolish to look back now and say they were all bad as they were not.

since this game reopened in 2001, the mmorpg genre has exploded. dark age of camelot opened later that year. drabyl sucked myself and several other toril-ites into that game. he and many others have never returned.

for others this game was an actual addiction. magrog was clinically addicted to this game and it deeply affected his personal life. as much as i miss his in game companionship, i'm glad he's kicked it for good.

right now, the biggest thing that would help this game is to break down the goodie/evil wall. when evils started dying, how many evils just said 'fuck it i'm done' instead of rolling a goodie? dunno. prob more than a couple. who cares if it would lead to the same five or six people min/maxing their shit picking the ideal race for any specific class. they do that now. who was the dude with multiple level 50 rogues? you think he did that because he was not min/maxing? or how about that thread about the dude that rerolled evil human rogue once he got a khanjari? how many of YOU made evil female human rogues once you got a khanjari?

but i digress....the best long-term bandaid for this game is to remove the grouping restrictions that are not class specific. rangers and paladins still cant group with evil races, but every other race and class can. i propose the staff try that out for a couple months and if there is no improvement in the playerbase or general feel of the game - yank it. certainly we arent above trying new things?

the worst thing we can do is go back to the miax way of doing things. maybe 10 of you would benefit. the rest would not. it would further marginalize the playerbase and it would have the exact opposite effect - push more people away and give new players less incentive to try. and you know the why behind that.
Gurns
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Postby Gurns » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:37 am

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. :)

But I was trying to get at something different. Not "what would be fun if it went in" or its counterpart "what isn't fun now". Not "this was fun in the past".

What I'm looking for is "this is fun on TorilMUD right now".

You may think the answer is "nothing". But if there is something you like to do, that's what I'd like to know.
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:25 am

i enjoy the hell out of my necro. i dont enjoy levelling, so that limits my time on her

necro mechanics are fun for me. no other game has necros like we do.
Teej
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Postby Teej » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:35 am

I've had fun roleplaying. :) I liked Lilira's New Year's party, and listening to her and Ashiwi singing. I had fun when Lorsalian and I tried to find a druid in his forest - like a needle in a haystack. :P Dumping eels into the lake with Sotana, finding Rhys in that strange city.

The god run parts were good, but so were the parts with just other players. Even sitting around talking, like at the party. Everyone there had their own stories, even the dwarf who ate the casserole surprise and fled out, rather green about the sideburns.

If anyone wants to roleplay, I'd be glad to find an excuse to meet up.
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:02 am

Oh I like rogues and rakes, those dashing young drakes
The kind you don't take to your mum
At the end of the day, what else can I say
There's nothing quite like a good bum
I hope you don't mind if I happen to find
The gleam of a mischievous eye
I just can't resist 'em
I might as well kiss 'em
Why let the wild life pass me by?

The roleplay was very much fun.
Also fun is getting our asses spanked in a zone.
Conversations in acc where people actually understand what you're talking about.
Smacktalk and up-puffing
Having something nobody else has
Organized chaos
Spanking ass in a zone
Losing... losing... losing... losing... SCORE!
Getting pissed over FK quests
Imphras
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
sotana
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Postby sotana » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:51 am

I love love love the exploring, figuring out part of the mud. I've mapped over 200 zones, id'ed several thousand items into my database, been killed more times than I can count, and still so much I'm literally dying to get to. Since most of this stuff I can get at and through solo, this aspect of the game is not dependant on pbase size which makes it accessible any time I have a chance to log on and that's just icing.

Maybe when I've run out of things to map and ID, I'll start working on quests but I'm pretty sure that point is still a huge corpse pile away.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:14 am

I enjoy chatting on ooc. It gets less and less fun as the pbase decreases. Soon the mud will go down, and I will have to find somewhere else to chat.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Nilan
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Postby Nilan » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:40 am

For me, the roleplay is fun and thats the reason I still play here.

I enjoy that aspect of this game alot,

Nilan
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:31 am

I've always loved roleplaying, I love leading groups of competent players, and I love the general community.

I do not love RP reward system, the lack of skills in the current playerbase, and the lack of players in general. Gameplay concerns are moot at this juncture as I see it.

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