Embodiments

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Gormal
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Embodiments

Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:32 pm

Earth embodiment should grant more hp than fire. Currently fire grants equal hp, more ac, better prots, fly, and makes you harder to bash. Yes, there are times where you choose earth simply because you need to bash but that's extremely rare and far less valuable. Earth elementals traditionally have been the high-hp, low-ac/tanking ability elementals and I think that the spell should reflect that. Fire embody is a very hard quest and should be the end-all embodiment, but right now earth isn't good enough.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:39 pm

Air gives 50ac, fire 65... I'd venture that air should give 65ac while fire gives 50 to balance things out a bit more. I have no idea how to make water not suck completely unless you're in a water zone (there's just so many of them).

Don't get me wrong by the way; I think that elementalists are the most underrated class for zoning, I just think that they could use a bit of a tweak that would only affect their zoning utility.
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Postby torkur » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:57 pm

I would have to disagree.

Water embodiment is low level, but it's VERY useful as a lower level ele learning the ropes and having your first healing spell. It allowed me to solo WD cemetery and you can still use it for a quick heal for a group member or on yourself as needed. See the ranger cure critic spell saving Tanir (log a couple days ago in Magma, I forget who).

Earth embodiment should be crappier as the quest is easily soloable. It's still nice to have a 300+ hp solid form situationally as you stated and sometimes you want all 4 slots in 10th circle for wards or lava bursts. Again, debatable, but most ele spells are easy to get and they only make the top one that hard to make up for all the benefits. If you raise this or lower fire I honestly think it takes some of the wow factor out of "I get the same amount of hp AND the effects?"

I'm neutral on the ac swap on air/fire given fire already has the fshield, but personally think as is is the best given it's used more higher level and is a hard spellquest versus scribed at master. You're mastering the elements and learning to do so from a dragon afterall.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:07 am

When you quest fire, you use it maybe to help heal but air is still better and is a lower circlet spell. Unless you absolutely need all tanks bashing, there's no reason to use earth embody, and basing a class are disposable spells makes no sense, especially at top circles. Also, when talking about top circle spells, the difficulty of the quest should reflect what the spell SHOULD be, not the other way around.

Fire:
65ac
350hp
haste
fireshield
semi wraith

Earth
350hp
enlarge
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:21 am

Maybe switch air and earth altogether, along with the hps gained. If I remember right, don't earth elementals hit like a fuggin truck? I don't quite get why earth embody here is so different. Just hps, prone to acid, if I remember right, and lastly you gain height
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Postby loshaenar » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:32 am

moot point really jake,

you really hit the nail on the head when u said it was an underzoned class. With the advent of certain tia gear on the premium tanks, the huge hp and ac these guys have going etc. why the hell would anyone bring an ellie?

i'm sure there'll be a bunch of posts to the contrary about that one time, in drulak...etc etc etc.. but the truth of the matter is, the last time i remember tai getting a zone request was b4 the wall came down. I do however get about 40 mwrites a day from wankaris wanting a solo buff.

The interesting thing is, about 2 years ago i wrote a series of posts with class and spell change suggestions for the mentalist to make them more zonable, which was subsequently smooshed on the grounds that it was already the most powerful solo class in game. 1 + 1 = window??

I think the point of all this is, i don't actually see anyone, including myself, playing the mentalist UNLESS it's to solo. There's simply no reason anymore to bring one.

that said, why the hell would the admins actually spend any time changing the spell set prior to 2010.0 ??
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:34 am

Elemental ward on tanks is extremely undervalued. You save your enchanter a boatload of work when you aren't chipping that scale away on a fireshield. I see elementalists as a support class more than a lava burst and memout class. I spend my time stoning the healers, warding 4 or so people, and hasting, with the occasional damage spell. Fire embody is a huge boon to any group because of the protection against bash, and hey that extra hp boost lets you swap out for maybe some more max_agi or saves.
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Postby Birile » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:39 am

I play my elementalist much the same way--ie. support/buffs/debuffs more than damage.

Of course, my suggestion is to move every embodiment down one circle and make a prismatic embodiment quest for 10th so I can be like my airship staff elemental, but that's just 'cause I have prismatic spray envy. :lol:
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Postby loshaenar » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:04 am

I see elementalists as a support class more than a lava burst and memout class. I spend my time stoning the healers, warding 4 or so people, and hasting, with the occasional damage spell.



not to get downright potty mouthed, but you're talking about turning a conceptually powerful petmaking class into the bitch class of the bitch classes. Maybe you could add backup levitator to the list.

Common... 10 full spheres of spells and u get to be the guy who throws the backup buffs when the chanter is busy?? Yeah the marketting team have got some real work ahead of them.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:38 am

loshaenar wrote:
I see elementalists as a support class more than a lava burst and memout class. I spend my time stoning the healers, warding 4 or so people, and hasting, with the occasional damage spell.



not to get downright potty mouthed, but you're talking about turning a conceptually powerful petmaking class into the bitch class of the bitch classes. Maybe you could add backup levitator to the list.

Common... 10 full spheres of spells and u get to be the guy who throws the backup buffs when the chanter is busy?? Yeah the marketting team have got some real work ahead of them.


Get back on topic. He's talking about how he plays the class and not saying he wants the class to change drastically.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:06 am

The glitterdust nerf was too much in my opinion too, it got a duration and effectiveness nerf which makes it nearly useless. Bump up the blind duration to actually matter and thats a big role to fill for elems. I don't look at it as a bitch class, I look at it as a jack of all trades master of none, so I don't try to max out as much damage as possible, I fill as many roles as possible. Some people don't like that style, but I really think its the most effect way to play the class as it is now, but still needs buffs.
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed May 07, 2008 6:19 am

IMHO as someone who has put some hours into an ELE....

In order to make elementalists more desireable to a group:

Completely agree about elemental ward. Increase the duration of elemental ward to make it a little more reasonable.

Add a reasonable direct-damage spell for critters unaffected by earthblood. the next best target spell sucks. A Lot.

Make fire embodiment quest less of a corpsefest. Don't make it soloable like the earth embody quest, but make it a little less psychotic. On the flip-side, make the earth embody quest a little tougher, and as a bonus add some hp to the earth body.

Del/Aedin
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Gormal » Wed May 07, 2008 7:53 am

Scorx is easy. 1 death the other night when I ran it for Didopipple and it took us probably 45 minutes from forming to popping, to finishing. Death was due to a tank not fleeing.
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed May 07, 2008 7:20 pm

guess it got easier then. I remember everyone was terrified to do it when i needed it. Still need it to this day 3+ years later...
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Gormal » Wed May 07, 2008 8:29 pm

Its never been hard really, people just used to do it badly.
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Dalar » Wed May 07, 2008 8:56 pm

Gormal wrote:Its never been hard really, people just used to do it badly.


I blame Tiamat items 11111!!one

Really though, it was always easy. It's harder now that dragons kick ass. I've singled tanked it as my grey elf tank without an issue. Also, you can do it in less than 10 minutes if you use 5 rangers.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Embodiments

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed May 07, 2008 9:24 pm

I'm not sure I understand why elemental earth embodiment should give more HP than elemental fire from either point of view, RP and game mechanics. Elemental earth is easier to destroy than elemental fire RP wise. And the issue with the quests and the order or circle of the spell should give EFE a small boost.
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed May 07, 2008 11:12 pm

I couldn't disagree more teflor. First off, destruction of any matter solid or otherwise is rather irrelevant. The whole concept of hit points is more of the question here. Earth elementals i imagine as slow, but HUGE, and doing damage to stone is rather difficult. Fire on the other hand is quick, and difficult to do damage to for a completely different reason.

As far as the circle of the spell impacting the power of the spell, this is not always true. Look at minute meteors. It is a 3rd circle spell and far outdoes the 4th and 5th circle invoker spells.

Earth embodiment needs more hp. Fire gets slightly less and abunch of cool abilities. Fire still much more powerful, but should also come at the cost of taking significantly higher damage from water/cold sources imho.
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Re: Embodiments

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri May 09, 2008 1:02 am

Why would an earth elemental be any larger than a fire elemental?
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Fri May 09, 2008 4:02 pm

Common knowledge. They're always that way in the movies.

Really though, they could be the same size, guess its just the way i stereotype them.
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Re: Embodiments

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri May 09, 2008 4:15 pm

I suppose if fire elementals were as large as earth elementals (as per probably-popular perception), they should also get a radius of suffocate :D
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Re: Embodiments

Postby Pril » Tue May 20, 2008 2:45 pm

So i was thinking about this and realized that it would be kinda cool if Earth embody granted the player who is embodied the doorbash skill. Not sure how well an earth embodied halfling would be able to do it or if they should but i would think an earth embodied barbarian would have no issues. Any ideas?
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Re: Embodiments

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue May 20, 2008 6:36 pm

Earth elementals also need a trunksmash skill. I'm tired of not being able to open wooden chests and stuff while I have a perfectly good pair of magical elven longswords in hand.
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