Downgrade grey-elves

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Adriorn Darkcloak
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Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:32 am

[50 Enc] Elano (Grey Elf)
[50 Ill] Drahken Draogi, Cabalist of the Dark Sands (Human) (RP)
[50 War] Jaice (Grey Elf)
[50 Rog] Nolu (Human)
[50 Rog] Ashiwi (Grey Elf)
[50 Dru] Lilithelle - Natural Disaster - Shadows of Imphras (Grey Elf)
[50 Ran] Ararim (Half-Elf)
[50 Bar] Kegor -Loremaster- Triterium (Human)
[50 War] Regegegeg (Duergar)
[50 Cle] Anashoa Shadows of Imphras (Grey Elf)
[48 Ele] Itanul (Grey Elf) (RP)
[46 Ill] Corth -Indecisive One- Elders of Netheril (Human) (RP)
[45 Enc] Isides (Grey Elf)
[43 Dru] Mirase (Grey Elf)
[42 Ele] Elacen (Grey Elf)
[38 Ele] Nossis (Yuan-Ti)
[38 War] Sereti (Grey Elf)
[32 War] Avaraen (Grey Elf)
[27 Ele] Pannim (Human)
[23 Dir] Sinab (Orc)
[21 Dru] Imalar (Grey Elf)

No, really. Downgrade grey-elves.
spunionring
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby spunionring » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:33 am

human has an ear size complex :P
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:21 am

Can we have psi elves yet?
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Kelzen
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Kelzen » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:03 am

[50 Ill] Kelenyr (Grey Elf)



thx...
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loshaenar
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby loshaenar » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:29 am

vortex +

volance +

grey elf tank

= WTF is an illusionist?

still, maybe you could give vit to illusionists, take some of the pressure off the warrior priests we have now.
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby ssar » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:35 am

Just turn up the dial a little for warrior str-based skills to make them a bit more effective, which will primarily improve barb, dorf, ogre, troll and duergar warrs.

Unsure about improving halfling, gnome, yuan warrs, if it needs at all.

Warrior "prac" list:

---

Wisdom Based Skills:

bandage (above average) (61) (not maxxed)

Strength Based Skills:

bash (master) (99)
double attack (master) (99)
parry (master) (99)
headbutt (master) (99)
offense (master) (99)
shieldblock (master) (99)
shieldpunch (very good) (90)
swimming (very good) (90)
defense (very good) (90)
1h bludgeon (master) (99)
1h slashing (master) (99)
1h piercing (master) (99)
1h misc (above average) (58) (not maxxed)
2h bludgeon (master) (99)
2h slashing (master) (99)
2h misc (average) (53) (not maxxed)

Constitution Based Skills:

mount (above average) (61) (not maxxed)

Dexterity Based Skills:

dual wield (below average) (39) (not maxxed)
hitall (master) (99)
disarm (very good) (90)
switch opponents (very good) (81) (not maxxed)
riposte (master) (99)
blindfighting (very good) (90)
unbind (below average) (35) (not maxxed)

Agility Based Skills:

kick (master) (99)
rescue (master) (99)
dodge (master) (99)

---
BEER
Disoputlip
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Disoputlip » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:31 pm

Here are my thoughts on the good aligned races.

I agree that agi makes the game unbalanced.

Already elves have the insane mage bonus for their wizards. Now, with max_agi gear beeing fairly easy to get, then elves also are the best warriors, and that is just wrong.

I even think the same problem is what is destroying the cleric class. Tanks that don't take damage.

I saw there was an elf rogue on the who, but grey rogue is not that good.

Here is how I see it:
Best mage: elf. For illu, and illu only gnome. (elf illu would be better if it existed)
Best warrior: elf
Best cleric: here it is balanced.
Best rogue: human
Best bard: here it is balanced

Here is how I would like to se it:
Best mage: elves or gnomes. And humans ok good.
Best warrior: dwarf and barbarian mostly. Halflings should suck at it.
Best rogue: halfling. with most other classes beeing playable. Dex should be more important than str. Today str is more important than dex e.g. even a dwarf get perfect hide.
Best cleric: like now
Best bard: like now

Something should be done to give all races a nieche, and at least remove the complete elf migration going on.
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:26 pm

I tend to find gnome as better tank. With same #'s, grey elf has 31 bonus ac, whereas gnome has 30. But the gnome has 100 hps more.. I didn't notice any large difference in tanking from 28 bonus and beyond. Humans can hit elf innate notch, so that'd help paladin/anti-paladin, if those two classes were ever made to be worth playing.
Grundar tells you 'I took on the entire football team once. The only reason my mom knew later was because I had a runny nose'
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:44 pm

Forgot to add, Yuans and drow both do really well given their same notch. It's just playing evils sucks. Lastly, Ogres now can have the human agility notch - bahahaha. Funny, but true! Dem's lots o' hps - w/o the trolls' burning crisp..
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Dalar
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:12 pm

Why does playing evils suck?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:43 pm

hard to find anybody to group
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Disoputlip
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Disoputlip » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:36 pm

Thilindel wrote:I tend to find gnome as better tank. With same #'s, grey elf has 31 bonus ac, whereas gnome has 30. But the gnome has 100 hps more.. I didn't notice any large difference in tanking from 28 bonus and beyond. Humans can hit elf innate notch, so that'd help paladin/anti-paladin, if those two classes were ever made to be worth playing.


Who cares about 100hp.

Try to compare a 124 agi gnome with a 124 agi elf. That is where you see the difference.

More and more tanks will begin to hit that notch with the gear in game.
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:24 am

100 hps is better than a free death pact. 30 agi bonus vs. 31 was not that big a deal from what I saw after 3 hours of being hit.

It tends to be area spells and breath deaths in zoning, compared to straight up melee. Areas still kill elves faster cuz of cruddy hps.
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Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:48 am

I agree with everything Disoputlip said in his post. I'd add on to remove the 101 con notch from grey elves (unless I'm mistaken). This is set stupidly low, which negates their entire hp loss, not just for warriors but rangers too (again, unless I'm mistaken). Raise it higher.
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:26 am

they gain 50 hps, as do humans/gnomes/halflings
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Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:24 pm

Yes. And as tanks that never get touched, those 50hps shouldn't be that easily available to them. One of their few negatives is their lack of hps. Why give such an overpowered race such an easily surpassable drawback?
Hyldryn
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Hyldryn » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:44 pm

Thilindel wrote:I tend to find gnome as better tank. With same #'s, grey elf has 31 bonus ac, whereas gnome has 30. But the gnome has 100 hps more.. I didn't notice any large difference in tanking from 28 bonus and beyond. Humans can hit elf innate notch, so that'd help paladin/anti-paladin, if those two classes were ever made to be worth playing.


Gnomes have bashing problems, it makes them less useful.
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Raiwen » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:26 am

gnomes have strength problems, limits their usage of certain weapons, and armor when reduced.

It's fun to be very light, and then immobile after a reduce.
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:22 am

Sad, but halflings are even worse for weapons they can't use. The unanswered reason to fuck halflings further by hosing trip/hamstring raped them into oblivion.
Grundar tells you 'I took on the entire football team once. The only reason my mom knew later was because I had a runny nose'
inomah
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby inomah » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:00 pm

who
Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<None>

There are 0 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[50 Ctr] Woca (Orc)
[50 Ele] Refarin -Conjurer- Triterium (Grey Elf)
[47 Enc] Nemic (Human)
[50 Rog] Mexlo -The Cobra's Fang- (Human) (RP)
[31 Ill] Dewissa (Human)
[38 Nec] Brarbael (Drow Elf)
[22 Sha] Fufak (Barbarian)
[50 Rog] Lase -Hand of Death- Triterium (Human) (RP)
[50 Dru] Lilithelle - Natural Disaster - Shadows of Imphras (Grey Elf)
[47 Psi] Xerriserixom (Illithid)
[49 Ele] Meninen (Grey Elf)
[50 Enc] Naled (Human)
[36 Ele] Eloarin (Grey Elf)
[17 A-P] Lavonas (Human)
[43 War] Sereti (Grey Elf)
[50 War] Alares (Grey Elf)
[45 War] Hiromi (Grey Elf)
[34 War] Coya (Barbarian)
[50 Cle] Abma (Human)
[15 Ran] Natiro (Grey Elf)
[48 Inv] Nimaithamael (Grey Elf)
[50 Ran] Tammuamnalaen -Fallen- Triterium (Grey Elf) (RP)
[ 6 War] Rofer (Human)
[50 Bar] Erira (Grey Elf)
[50 Rog] Eki - Master of Disguise - Shadows of Imphras (Human) (AFK) (RP)
[50 War] Avaraen (Grey Elf)
[50 Dru] Tieliki -WyldChild- Triterium (Grey Elf)
[46 Bar] Arazaz (Human)
[20 Ele] Sozugited (Duergar)
[39 Dru] Nodo (Human)
[17 War] Melariad (Grey Elf)
[46 Ele] Elacen (Grey Elf)
[38 Rog] Euna (Human)
[50 Cle] Anashoa Shadows of Imphras (Grey Elf)
[49 Nec] Terarzol (Human)
[46 Ill] Corth -Indecisive One- Elders of Netheril (Human) (RP)
[18 Nec] Fuzere (Human)
[50 Bar] Kegor -Loremaster- Triterium (Human)

There are 38 mortal(s) on.

Total players online: 44.
Record number of players on this boot: 48.
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:18 pm

Half the problem is humans are so worthless for playability. Especially their crappy intelligence. Goodrace is totally lacking in a class with wisdom 'above average.' It's not that grey elves are awesome as much as for goodrace, halflings are horribly stupid. Dwarves are pretty stupid. Both gnomes and especially halflings are retards for wisdom. At least trolls and ogres get innates and strength to offset. Halflings get HamStriNg..which is new and improved to worthless. Thanks!
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:48 pm

In my defense Meninen is only a grey elf cause i wanted to be able to go everywhere on the mud so a *shudder* elf is unavoidable. otherwise i woulda chose a gnome for sure. Down with Nancers!
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spunionring
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby spunionring » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:24 am

IMHO

halflings should have best agi bonus

gnomes should have the best int

and dwarves could get a touch of MR or something

and leave elves as is :)
Delmair Aamoren
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:56 pm

Which, in lieu of downgrading elves would be great, but it would even further widen the gap for human. I think the answer is two fold.

1) decrease the importance of agility across the board. Significantly. Decrease how effective it is, etc. Also, please please please take a look at the max_agi gear in the game. If you could get your hands on all of it, i'm pretty sure an elf could get into the 160's, which would be equivalent of human 200+. Insane!

2) as stated above, increase the importance of STR to tanking. Not so that everyone goes and does the reverse and wears a ton of +maxstr. I'm suggesting a SMALL tweak.

Del
grundar
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby grundar » Mon May 04, 2009 5:37 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:Also, please please please take a look at the max_agi gear in the game. If you could get your hands on all of it, i'm pretty sure an elf could get into the 160's, which would be equivalent of human 200+. Insane!

yes but said elf would have an ac of -20 very low hps and 0 saves which makes it not worth it

Delmair Aamoren wrote:2) as stated above, increase the importance of STR to tanking. Not so that everyone goes and does the reverse and wears a ton of +maxstr. I'm suggesting a SMALL tweak.


i agree, some races should be better at dodging than others, other races should be better at parrying, others at shieldblocking but balanced out so it would not be worth it for say grey elves to go the way of maxstr and ogres maxagil. also giving special functions to the defensive skills would rock, say like going for dodge when fighting huge mobs parry shieldblock when fighting hordes of same size to small mobs.
Thilindel
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby Thilindel » Mon May 04, 2009 6:17 pm

ogres SHOULD be badass at shieldblock, parry, double attack, (strength based skillzz)etc..yet are the biggest damned jokes ever for tanks
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby grundar » Mon May 04, 2009 6:44 pm

actually ogres would still pretty much suck as a tanks, for a shield to be of any use to them it would have to be big covering their field of vision all around allowing for crits to rain in from all sides. parry is wrongly classified as a primarily strength skill and anyone who's ever held a blade knows this to be true. so basically ogres would be just as good standing unarmed with their eyes covered. they are damage dealers, not tanks never have been, never will be, so bring might as well bring back berserkers.
dem
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Re: Downgrade grey-elves

Postby dem » Tue May 05, 2009 8:39 pm

Duris had the same problem and tried to solve it by making max_agi and max_dex less useful. What happened was that all the lower hp races wheren't played anymore. The bigger races had better hps and did more Dmg and where now about as good tanks as an elf or halfling. In my experience downgrading stuff has always made the game less fun.

/Koxa

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