Maxcon

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Delmair Aamoren
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Maxcon

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:30 am

Seems this might not be working as it should. I have been working with maxcon on my human Anti. I get the first maxcon bonus somewhere between 100 and 105. That gives me 50 hp. I have other maxcon gear that gets me up to a total of 131 con. In this 25 point gain, i only get an extra 50 hp. That bonus seems to come at 124. The bonuses given by maxagi eq seem to be at smaller incriments, and more rewarding it seems. Could someone look into this plz? *tug shev*

Is there any additional benefit for maxcon other than the 50 hp bonus per notch?

Del
Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:21 am

You get your first maxcon notch as a human at 101. Your second maxcon notch is at 124. There SHOULD be one at 112 but there isn't. Kinda like the 101 maxstr notch that doesn't give 1 damage.
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:50 pm

The hp bonus from con gives +1hp per level, and therefore only every 2nd notch is a hp.

If it should scale differently then mabye every notch should give half a hp.

Con is other than hp I think. Resurrection survival and poison saves.

If it is changed to 50 hp per notch then ill be rolling an ogre.
Thilindel
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Thilindel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:49 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:You get your first maxcon notch as a human at 101. Your second maxcon notch is at 124. There SHOULD be one at 112 but there isn't. Kinda like the 101 maxstr notch that doesn't give 1 damage.


There's two types of notches for strength - damage and load carried. Not sure why this is. Best example of this is you get a dwarf with close to 90 strength, where his damroll is still 5. That's approaching 120ish for human. But with 130 human strength, which is 100 dwarf strength, they have more than enough for 6 damroll; at that point the load carried varies within the 6 damroll notch. I assume most people know that, but I put it out there anyway.

Would almost seem that damroll bonus should be a hybrid of strength and dexterity. Hitting where you want to hit, and with greater force. Isn't dexterity in D&D a bonus for missile type?
Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:54 pm

Oh no Thil, I know how the notches work. It's just that humans get a +1 bonus at all the 101s, except for str. That I can carry more weight at 101 str as a warrior is a moot point. The 1 damage is what it should be.
Thilindel
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Thilindel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:00 pm

I'd love to see better notch intervals for strength! Especially since humans have always been portrayed as the 101 gets a notch type race. What is a downfall, and shouldn't be, is how the race is what delegates the bonus. Meaning notches are fully relative to a race. When you find a belt of giant's strength, then damn you should be as strong as a giant. Gauntlets of Ogre Strength were so badass in D&D. Could go on and on, as I don't see why the system makes things relative to race.

For the maxcon, it's a shame as well. Some races just blow when trying to build that up. Better yet, the dumb races. Ever try building up a halfling type mage? Heh...
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:16 pm

This thread is about maxcon
Shaiith
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Shaiith » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:16 am

str tangent

Quick correction on Str, carry capacity. It was related to str * min(str, weight) / 26 [where str is the human equivalent for your str]. I say was, because who knows what the new size code does. This is why reduce increased load, it often made weight the important part of the second term. Carry capacity does not notch, but increased with each point of stat. This is easily verifiable if you're bored, 25 coins = 1 wt, mix with some +/- str gear.

/str tangent

agi tangent

I'm not sure that agility has that big of an impact anymore. I lean strongly towards -25 being sufficient with blur. Since agi no longer provides crit avoidance (untested, just Shev's word), the major value of it is gone. It definitely increases mob miss rate when blur is not up, but when blur is up, players may already be in the edge case of minimized mob hit rate (untested, but blur is very very big).

The amount of testing needed is pretty large. To split a 1% hair (-31 vs -32 is such a hair), something on the order of 4000 attacks in each kit of gear, with consistent buffs up (flee out before blur drops, etc). That would drive the SD of a 2% hit rate down to 0.25% making the overlap between a 2% and 3% hit rate inside 2 SD intervals disappear. (if it's between 4% and 5%, trial count needed is larger, around 7k).

Given the amount of trials needed for proof, I discount all evidence people claim to have noticed (sorry Ross). It's just too easy to fall prey to the placebo effect. I trust that you're seeing something, I don't trust that it's real (it can't hurt, although if you can get more hp or saves if you ditch the excess maxagi gear for other gear, it hurts in some sense)

I'm not sure what the unarmed code uses for crit rate. Unconverted weapons and maybe barehand code (most mobs) might have an impact from agi. 2 attacks every 4 seconds from mephits means that those 7k trials in 2 kits are only about 8 hours of standing there.... during the next multi. (I'd go for a low attack rate mob to minimize offense/defense's impact, I'd probably use a mage or priest to minimize defensive skill impact too)

/agi tangent

maxcon on human warrior types gives roughly 2 hp per point (it's +50 hp every 24ish, 101, 124, 148, 172) When rings have 65 hp, then the equivalent maxcon would be about 31 maxcon. However, the affects don't go up that high. The amount of maxcon in affects given out on gear (relative to hp) is out of balance to it's in game impact. Maxcon affects should be revised drastically upwards if the affect is to be as useful as affects hp.
Delmair Aamoren
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:03 am

I'm not asking for an entire re-vamp of the system, but it just seems silly that with this much maxcon, the reward is pretty minimal. I don't see an appreciable difference in skills such as mounted combat, which is constitution based. One could theorize that i should perhaps get hit less as a result? Your statements based on agi notches could have something to do with it (difference being diminutive), but it still seems useless.
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Shaiith » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:49 pm

I was looking at the other side of the same situation. 21 hp has the same impact as 10 maxcon for humans. How much gear has 21 hp (or more)? How much gear has 10 maxcon (or more)? Instead of making each point of maxcon more important (code changes), the points could be made more frequent (area changes).

There's a discussion upstairs as to where is the better place to rebalance the significance of maxcon versus hp on gear. There's also a discussion about if it's even needed. Maybe the intent is to have maxcon be weak relatively. I wanted to point out however that what seems like high amounts of maxcon historically wouldn't unbalance things in game if areas wanted to play around with things. It's also a way of changing the barb/elf balance even more as maxcon has more impact for barbs and less for elves.

Consider how much maxstat is required for everyone to reach stats equivalent to human 172 agi/172 con

Humans 72 of each, 144 total
Barbs require 72 maxagi, 14 maxcon, 86 total (only need to hit 148 con due to innate extra hp/level)
Elves require 32 maxagi, 130 maxcon, 162 total (need to hit 196 con due to innate -1 hp/level)

Stripping hp off tank gear and replacing with appropriate maxcon (24ish maxcon per 50 hp) seriously hurts elven tanks (gnomes a bit less, but barbs have the best mix). If high levels of maxcon and maxagi are needed for tanks the order goes roughly barb > dwarf (almost equal to barbs, also has infra) > gnome > human > elf.

I think this is why I prefer boosting maxcon as opposed to making existing maxcon more powerful. There's simply not enough maxcon out there on decent gear. If maxcon was made more powerful, more gear with maxcon would be needed to make this truly impactful, may as well just introduce the more gear and skip the code changes.

PS- Max of all stats really isn't on gear in proportion to it's impact. Maxint/wis is in the same ballpark as maxcon. The naked elf/human maxint difference (no tia hat, tia hat makes maxint less important still) is about 25% (elf mems 21 spells per 16 by human). However even in a cast cycle, only about 1/3-2/5 of time is used on memorization. This drops that 21 vs 16 advantage to under 10%. At 1/3 mem time, 2/3 casting/moving time, it's a 8.6% advantage, +100 hp on 1000 hp base, is +10% (on 1200 it's 8.3%), so the advantage of 50 maxint is about the same as 50 maxcon (due to where the notches are, the maxcon is slightly more as 100 to 150 hits 3 notches, but long term 50 maxcon hits 2).
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Thilindel » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:36 am

Aren't human/halfling/gnomes @ the same con notch initially? If I remember right, all 3 gain hps with 101 con
Delmair Aamoren
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:55 am

First off, there is a decent amount of +maxcon gear. I don't think that it needs to be increased. I honestly think it could use a small decrease. +8maxcon eyewear seems rather insane imho. That being said, the importance of maxagi seems to be FAR more important based on its effects in melee, especially vs multiple targets. Survivability is SIGNIFICANTLY greater. the 50 hp difference in the tanks is a moot point.

Make maxcon affect mounted combat, and fix the hps so they happen each notch for humans as well as other races. Problem solved. Warriors will continue to use maxagi, helping their AC and dodge. Antis/dires/paladins can then in turn use maxcon to help them be better tanks (to some degree) and get the hp bonus instead of the ac bonus. There we have a more diverse tanking options and strategies.
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Re: Maxcon

Postby Shaiith » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:59 pm

+8 maxcon is equal to +16.7 hp for humans in the average case. 17hp on eyewear isn't very rare, it's in the ballpark of best in slot. I wouldn't characterize +8 maxcon on eyewear is overpowered. (assuming it's not 8 maxcon AND some hp, but 8 maxcon and something else instead) That's what I was pointing out. 65 hp rings are the equivalent of 31.2 +maxcon... (for humans)

31 maxcon and -4 sv bre makes the big hp rings only usable on warrior types, and the others could be chopped, since no one else benefits the same way, etc.

I'd argue it'd be interesting to allow other classes to get half the hp that warriors get, instead of human 100 being +50 hp at 68 and +50 hp at 74 for everyone and +50 hp at 80 and +50 hp at 86 (or 92, but not both, forget which) for warriors, why not give warriors +50 hp at each of those notches and everyone else +25 at them. That 31 maxcon -4 svbre ring is 65 hp -4 bre for warriors and 32 hp -4 bre for everyone else. It would keep the hp's of different classes spread apart as gear power scales up, rather than having everyone wearing +hp gear and warriors perpetually staying only about +300 hp above mages.

Edit PS - It would also have the effect of forcing casters/rogues to care about 4 stats, str/agi/con/int, wis, or dex, like warriors care about 4 stats today. ie It helps balancing things out in ways other than keeping warriors at roughly double caster hp (as opposed to a fixed +300).

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