Ultravision

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Dizzin
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Ultravision

Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:32 am

I think that Ultravision is something that could use a minor change-up.

Given enough time exposed to the sun, any character with Ultravision should be able to gain an ability to at least see in daylight. I figure it could be the same as what infra see without a light. Instead of red shapes, could be something like "A blurry form."

As for how much time, well I'd say it should be some significantly large amount of time exposed to daylight. Something around 5-10 game years I think would make sense. And yes I know people would prolly just sit in the daylight AFK just to be able to gain this advantage, but why's that really bad? To choose a fairly poor example, Drizzt would purposely expose himself to the sun when he first came to the surface, so why couldn't our chars?

Just something to help out the newbies and old darkies alike. And it still wouldn't lower the importance of having globe of darkness and fog(s) too much, as we still couldn't see objects etc in our own room.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:46 am

That's a pretty good idea.
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Re: Ultravision

Postby Pheten » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:41 am

Dizzin wrote:As for how much time, well I'd say it should be some significantly large amount of time exposed to daylight. Something around 5-10 game years I think would make sense. And yes I know people would prolly just sit in the daylight AFK just to be able to gain this advantage, but why's that really bad? To choose a fairly poor example, Drizzt would purposely expose himself to the sun when he first came to the surface, so why couldn't our chars?.


Horrible idea, If you want to play someone who can see in the light don't play a member of the underdark. Seriously, put this ability in and I want innate ultra on my anti after spending so much time in the dark=)
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:51 am

Problem is, Humans dont have the eyes that they'll EVER be able to adjust to seeing as well as an elf in the dark.

With Ultra races, being able to see in the light(sorta) would just be a matter of adapting to the pain. I mean, if they're giving ultra/infra combo to liches, why not just give this to darkies who spend a couple rl months "adapting". Would even make it so it's just for the room you're in, and scanning would still give you the Too much light message.

And choosing not to play a member of the underdark means that if you want to play a mage or cleric of any sort, you have to play a snake. And Hyssk is NOT a place for even a semi-experienced newbie to start playing this game.
Last edited by Dizzin on Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:54 am

Ok, so if you put this in, change ultra so being on the surface even at night makes you partially blind, as even the stars/moon out are to bright for drow. It'd be interesting to see, but why go halfway, go all out. Make an cowel people can wear to block the nightsky or somecrap.
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:59 am

Stars aren't too bright for drow. Moon can be, when full.... I dont think darkies will complain about being semi-blind on the surface the about week that the moon is full/near-full if they can eventually still see during the 12 minutes/day of daylight.

Plus they'll adapt to the brightness of the moon faster than the sun, so it wouldn't matter much in the long run. :)
Last edited by Dizzin on Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pheten » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:05 am

In the end it boils down to the fact that underdark races are very powerful (except mebbe doogers=p ) drow and squid both have a ton of power and in return for this you get this nice handicap. Seriously drow are like the uber race on this mud, I know what yer tryin to do Dizzin, And it would be nice to make it easier for new players but I honestly don't think this is the way.

-phet

PS also the fact that the only way one would eventually get to the point they can see is through pure AFK time, no drow or squid is gonna sit on the surface while at their comp in the light, unable to see anything or do anything hehe. Would be a world full of underdark races sittin in safe rooms up top with a tick timer on =)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:07 am

Dunno. I mean, I'm just going strictly by the books here, I have no information other than what i've read through the years novel wise, but i've seen many instances where candle light was to much for a drow :P Just a random thought.
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:18 am

Drow are about as powerful as surface elves... Slightly higher warrior constitution is the only difference. And some weakish innates. And surface elves have innate outdoor sneak, which is supremely super to UD sneak.

Illithids have the worst strength and con in the game.. Bad agi and dex. All they have is intelligence.. I fail to see why that's so powerful, aside from the psionicist class, which is just now being fixed to be decent again.

In fact, I'd say that Duergar are the only overpowered race for UD... Which makes me wonder if you've played darkies enough to comment properly! But that's okay, I haven't played druids enough to complain about them, though I sure want to.

And I dont much like the idea of seeing a bunch of AFK darkies sitting on the surface. But it's no different from how most rogues and warriors and bards practice their skills. And if it helps improve evilraces some, I'll live.

I mean, you could just make an item out there like Arilin suggested that would accomplish the same thing and have some major disadvantages like -50 dex/agi or some such, but I'm sure people would be more against that than my idea.
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Postby Gromikazer » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:33 am

Anyone who says drow is a super race is ignorant of the facts. Surface elves have almost exactly the same stats as drow. Drow have slighlty more con (matters not for non-warriors) and grey elves have more agility. They both have the same int. Drow get Ultravision, and faerie fire and levitate, and Underdark sneak. Elves get Forest sneak. In the end, there is almost no difference. Well there is one, Drow can't see during the day at all, elves can see during the night, with a light, or in other rooms with infra.

It wouldn't be hard to implement a Infra like effect on ultravision, where you can see the room description and directions out during the day, but the mobs in the room are "dark shapes" rather then thier actuall name. I'm sure this could be done very fast and easily with a slight modification of the infra code.

I have lived with ultra, and in a couple situations it helps. In a growning number of surface zones, it has become increasingly more of a problem. Ultra races probably wouldn't say anything at all if we could wear a item that gave use the ability to see in the day, like surface races can wear to see in the night.
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Postby Gromikazer » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:36 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Dunno. I mean, I'm just going strictly by the books here, I have no information other than what i've read through the years novel wise, but i've seen many instances where candle light was to much for a drow :P Just a random thought.


Yea, then again, the largest refrence to drow, and probably one of the reasons they are so popular is because of a ranger named Drizzt. I'm sure he dosen't cringe at a candle, let alone at the sun.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:44 am

Gromikazer wrote:Yea, then again, the largest refrence to drow, and probably one of the reasons they are so popular is because of a ranger named Drizzt. I'm sure he dosen't cringe at a candle, let alone at the sun.


Not after how ever many decades on the surface no, but check out those books, re-read the parts about the drow raids at night, and how in gromphs study one lit candle was hard enough on the eyes. And i'm not even arguing for or against the idea, sorry to take the thread outta whack there. Mostly just geeking out with what I remember from the book.
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:53 am

Actually, it was after less than a year and a half on the surface that Drizzt was able to see at least decently well enough to hunt in daylight, though he did still prefer the night of course. So I dont really see why it would be too much of a problem here.

And drow mages actually study by candlelight, so it's not a really big deal for them.

Edit: And yeah, I know basing the game on stuff from the Drizzt series of books is questionable at best. But it's sadly what most of us know about FR, and not much more!
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Postby Ashod » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:12 am

Drizzt had alot of problems adjusting to the surface light..
he was always wearing a long cowled cloak in the day..
He was trained to fight blindly also by his Father and
the Dwarven surface friend he had. But all and all
he never ever could see well in the daylight at all.

take in note to that his eyes were different from
any other drow if I am not mistaken.

Drow can see just fine in candle light.. but it is
the first few seconds adjusting from ultravision
to normal vision.. Drow raid the surface pretty much
in full moon light and never have a problem..

and i might be mistaken.. but I think faerun
has like 3 moons?

as far as them seeing well in the daylight.. it
can't happen. They have extremely large
orb eyes that pull in alot of light.

Not to blow down your idea.. it would be nice
but it isn't really very likely..

and ontop of that all the drow in the game
run around mainly wearing the same eq
as surface dwellers.. but if i am not mistaken
the are very paticullar about wearing gear
from the underdark because of the magical
properties.. and these properties fade
when exposed to sunlight..

may have gone overboard here.. but
I am totally against drow doing that..

there are however magic items and spells
that were in faerunn that would allow
drow to function normally in the daylight.
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:36 am

I JUST read in one of the books that he now has no problem seeing in daylight. Was in whatever book came after the end of the Icewind Dale trilogy. Though I cant argue the fact that his eyes were different from other drow, but just in colour.

Regardless, this wasn't initially about Drizzt. It's about Ultravision being a pain for evilraces to have to deal with and being one of the problems with getting newbies to stick with them/play them. And hell, I'd MUCH prefer some item that darkies could wear to let them see in daylight. But I figured all you goodies would whine more about that than this. Perhaps I'm mistaken!

Make it a wholehead cowl, and like -20 dex/agi. But dont make it very hard to get. Could even eventually add in new items with the same flag that are harder to get, but dont have as many negatives to it.
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Postby oteb » Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:01 pm

Shouldn't drows strenghs and weakneses be comapred to humans? I mean in every upgrade human thread we hear that humans are weak b/c they get easiest hometown to start in. Same holds true for drows.

Leave ultra as it is.
Evils already got plenty new spells to countereffect it. PLus they got worm hole, plus mobs no longer cloud their super tank trolls, plus psis got a boost. thats plenty of luv already. They are supposed to be harder to play no?
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Postby Salen » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:05 am

So which of you is a bigger nerd? Salvatore is a no-talent hack that makes up rules as he goes along. Drizzt is a tool and basing ideas on him makes you a tool.

As for the idea, if you do let them kinda see, no one will ever play anything other than a drow. Bye-bye snakes.
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Postby Dizzin » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:14 am

Salen wrote: As for the idea, if you do let them kinda see, no one will ever play anything other than a drow. Bye-bye snakes.


My first instinct is to say thank God. Snakes are a pathetic race that SHOULD be finished off. It's like you guys saying no one will play gnomes because elves are superior. And elves ARE superior, but yet people play gnomes still. Of course, gnomes have all their eq slots and dont live in a hometown that's death for even unaware level 50s...

Anywho, unsurprisingly, you goodies are against it, but too bad!
Paladin's got the ability to be rejuved by necros even though they already had several bonuses to make up for their aging, they made it a lot easier to fix alignment, and made it so killing good mobs didn't make you as evil, and they did a bunch of changes to mounts, mostly for goodies. So why cant we get something for our Ultra races?

To the staff, there needs to be a way for Ultras to see at least a tad in the light in someway for newbies to help stick to the evilraces as anything but a warrior or dire raider. For when newbies reach around level 11-20, they start to feel the urge to explore. But this is what happens:

Evilnewbie leaves DK, and goes to the trail west of it. Let's say that they're lucky and it's already daylight out so they're blinded and they learn about dayblindness right away, rather than getting into a dangerous spot first, then going blind. Then they decide to wait till darkness. They start to explore at night, but ofc since they're new, they go slow, and get to CP desert. Then light comes back and they spend 10-12 more mins just sitting there afk. Then they move on and explore CP desert. Being newbies they spend the whole night in there looking around/getting lost, and guess what, it's daytime again! So they spend another 10-12 mins just sitting around. By now, they get bored so they decide to run back to DK. Say, they get a little lost and it turns light just as they get back to rocky trail. But they've already spent around 30 mins just sitting on their asses totally blind, so they decide to try to walk the rest of the way home. Of course, a Paladin group just popped on rocky trail and as they go through, they get killed by a bunch of someone's. And after going through all that, just to get killed, they get pissed off. And to make it worse, let's say there's no evil on in anything but primetime, except for the odd perma-afk person, so he cant even get just a little help. So that evilnewbie is now pissed, but wants whatever little precious eq (to him) that was on his corpse, so he goes back, this time in the dark, looks in and sees his corpse and the paladin wanking on it. He then decides to try and loot it first b/c he's not really aware of the drag command, half-loots and then dies again. He's really upset now, asks whatever various evils are on, but gets no response or only responses like, I'm busy, or I'm too small to help you etc. So he tries once more, dies yet again, and says nuts to this and gives up on his corpse, and probably on evils as a whole.

Now just ignore the whole paladin bit. Just ignore the dying. That newbie STILL spent over half his time playing this *game* just sitting on his ass. Not doing a single thing. Just sitting staring at his screen and seeing Argh! a lot, waiting for night to come around. That's not fun for newbies, especially not the ones that we MIGHT find to come play nowadays. So, I just ask for some way around it that the average newbie can either look forward too or receive relatively simply.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:03 am

Mebbe Dizzin, that is why there is a warning about playing evil races! Something to the effect of they are more difficult and whatnot... unless that was removed (i remember something like that). There isn't a huge difference between that and the random aggros that load south of, north of, and east of waterdeep. They kill newbies constantly i'd imagine. I'm not for or against the idea, just poking holes in the logic.
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Postby Waelos » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:06 am

O yea. . .and elves dont exactly have the easiest life of goodraces either =p Complete isolation for 20 levels, aggressive mobs loading on the only road out of the city and a very limited selection of XP zones. Elven life is hard!

=)

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Postby Gura » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:06 am

if im not mistaken delmair those warnings were supposed to be removed...dunno if they have been or not. however maybe i think they should still be there for hyssk considering the difficulty of leaving that hometown.
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:08 am

oteb wrote:They are supposed to be harder to play no?


This comment alone makes it highly questionable if you are informed enough of the situation to make the bold statement that you did my friend.
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Postby Sylvos » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:51 pm

Unfortunately Dizzin, there's one flaw in your example.

In order to NOT suffer from the effects od dayblindness, said newbie would have already had to have sat around and garnered enough ptime outdoors to be able to see. This wouldn't really do anything for actual newbies, just allow the older evils to overcome one of the penalties for choosing an Underdark race. It's part of the atmosphere of the mud, that in order to be able to see perfectly at night you can't see during the day.

If nothing else, that ability alone is massive. I'd be much more in favor of an item that suppresses your ultravision than allowing simple ptime to allow you to even partially negate said penalty.

Not that my favor is all that important, but that's my opinion. It'd do nothing for newbs directly. Evil helpers wouldn't be able to see them anyways since it's 'a blurry form' to help out, so that doesn't work. You'd have the ability to see perfectly at night and sufficiently during the day without any sort of item, just by virtue of having the time to sit around and 'let your eyes adjust'. I think an anti-ultra item is the better way to go, same way we goodies have anti-dark spells/items (contin light) to cope with darkness.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:59 pm

Comparing humans to drow in form of vision isn't a good comparsion. Humans can see in the dark with a torch, costs less then 1g yeah you lose a slot to hold one but soon enough you can get an item with perm-light. So now the human who is the basis of "good" race comparsions can now see 24/7. Where as the Drow needs a level 35+ psi, illusionist, enchanter or elementalist (not sure of the levels on those spells) to be able to see during the day time. What about instead of being able to see in the light with ultra there was an object flag like (illuminating) but was (darkened) and acted just like globe of darkness or fogs? Then those spells and psi powers could be used for something else.
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Postby Dizzin » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:01 pm

Nod Sylvos, I realized that too. And really, I'm more for just slopping on some cowl and being able to sorta see a lot more than I was for the other idea, I just figured most people would be more against that.. I'm wrong a lot though. So.. taking from above:

Make the very basic one a wholehead cowl, and like -20 dex/agi. But dont make it very hard to get (Thinking selling it in the various adventurer stores in UD towns). Could eventually add in new items with the same flag that are harder to get, but dont have as many negatives to it.

Or somethin..
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:41 pm

Didn't being exposed to the light so much injure Drizzt to an extent? It seems bass-ackwards, but what about a cowl like that hide cloak, where wearing it allows the drow to see in some limited form, but the character takes ongoing damage every round, or risks a chance of some long-term blindness effect? It doesn't make a lot of sense because the cowl would be causing the damage instead of the exposure, but UD dwellers are already allowed to walk around exposed to the daylight without taking damage, they only have to deal with the blindness, so some kind of compensation for the ability would seem to be in order.
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Postby thanuk » Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:28 pm

I don't see how this is really unbalancing if they can see the name of the room their in during daylight. Sure if you gave them perfect daytime vision it would be weak but if its like they can see the room name and the mobs as just something standing here its not really gonna throw off the balance of the cosmos here. Worst thing that happens is drow can walk around the surface in the day time, and anyone with the balls to do it probably knows where they are going and could've walked in total blindness anyway.
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Postby tsaej » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:20 pm

Borrowing from several of the ideas already posted here but:

Instead of a (a faintly glowing ball of fungus (illuminating)) that can be aquired in the current newbie zone. Create an equivalent fungus that has an effect as such:

Allows the holder (geared more specifically to those with ultravision) to see the name of the room they are in and any lifeforms in the room would appear as blurry shapes. However, this ability would be granted ONLY to the room they are in. If they were to look into an adjacent room then they would get the message ARGH! TOO MUCH LIGHT!

Something to consider would be whether or not to allow that individual to be able to see enough to determine what they are carrying on themselves. Eg. Could they see enough to look inside their backpack? Could they see enough to see their spellbooks for meming?

Something else to consider. Should the item provide enough darkness that non infravision races wouldn't be able to see this idividual (similar to as if it was dark outside) ?

The introduction of such an item would not void the current spells: Globe of darkness, Sun Shadow, Solid Fog, and Earth Fog because the person carrying the item would not be able to see what was actually in the room so these spells would still be needed to do zones etc.

I also believe that the introduction of such an item would not be unbalancing but might give an edge to any newbie who should try an evilrace (with ultravision) despite the warning messages about such races being more difficult to play.

As for non newbies on the evil side the introduction of such an item would help a little bit in case they make a wrong turn in the light and get lost. What I have personally done is simply memorize the number of rooms I have to move to reach certain areas in the daylight. Eg. I know how many rooms I have to move to go from DK to HP and can walk completely blind. I am not the only one who has done this I am sure, so all ultravision is really doing to me is providing a nuisance while exploring.

Thoughts/Comments?
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Postby Vahok » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:54 pm

I personally think this is a horrible idea. Bottom line, drow trade off day vision for faerie fire, levitate and other innates. Yeah, dayblind is annoying, and yes, it can frustrate a newbie. But many evil races and many good races should not be a first character. Regardless of what many people may think, the warning is there for a reason.

(I also think the warning should be on some good races as well...try talking a true newbie barbarian outta GN...it's tough to explain, and frustrating to boot for the newbie. Or the elf point has been brought up..)
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Postby Gromikazer » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:58 pm

Look innate faerie fire, and innate lev, is nearly useless except for a drow rogue, and then its not AmAzInG or some crap. Not being able to see for 10-12 minutes a day is an annoying factor.

Its not hard to make it so we can at least see the name of the room. I mean common, is it that hard to imagine? Make it so you can't see any objects or mobs during the daytime, but you can see the name of the room and the exits. Thats just common sense, It really is dumb that you get the "ARGH, its too bright" message.

I have noticed just about every goodie chime in about this, though 95% of them probably haven't even tried a drow or a duergar and tested thier AMAZING innates that are so awesome.
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Postby Vahok » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:17 am

Gromikazer wrote:Look innate faerie fire, and innate lev, is nearly useless except for a drow rogue, and then its not AmAzInG or some crap. Not being able to see for 10-12 minutes a day is an annoying factor.

Its not hard to make it so we can at least see the name of the room. I mean common, is it that hard to imagine? Make it so you can't see any objects or mobs during the daytime, but you can see the name of the room and the exits. Thats just common sense, It really is dumb that you get the "ARGH, its too bright" message.

I have noticed just about every goodie chime in about this, though 95% of them probably haven't even tried a drow or a duergar and tested thier AMAZING innates that are so awesome.


FYI, I have played these races as I'm sure many other goodies who have posted. So, check your facts before making an assumption.
And common sense is if you can't see in the day, you can't see the room name or exits.

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Postby Waelos » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:26 am

OK, simple solution.

Reset Drow innates to exact grey innates/stats.

Give them daylight vision.

Play on.


Ok by you?

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Postby Gura » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:52 am

so vahok you've played ultra races..and you feel that innate faerie fire and innate lev justify not seeing during the day? if so well...you're as fubar'd as the quest formulas
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Postby Vahok » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:57 am

Gura wrote:so vahok you've played ultra races..and you feel that innate faerie fire and innate lev justify not seeing during the day? if so well...you're as fubar'd as the quest formulas


Pretty much yes. As Waelos put it, yank the innates and other extra drow get, and sure, see during the day. If not, roll an ogre, troll, orc, snake (which this would hurt imo) if you wanna play a day sight evil. If you really wanna play an elf who can see during the day, roll a grey.

*currently lobbying for my warrior to get ogre size and troll regen...I want the best of both world's too!*
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Postby Todrael » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:26 am

I love innate faerie fire, levitate, and darkness. Each one has saved my life at least once.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:32 am

Vahok wrote:"I'm blind but I'm positive I'm in the forest!" riiiiiiiiggght.


Cuz I just bumped into that f**kin tree right there?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Gura » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:05 am

ignore todrael. he doesnt want another one of his special lich skills to become useless
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

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Postby Gromikazer » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:35 am

Even in pitch black as a human in real life I can understand my surroundings and whats going on around me, by simple touch, sounds and smells. If you belive that if your blind folded you can't tell your in a desert, or in a forest, or on a mountain, then your senses have been dulled beyond a point of disbelief.

No matter if I can see or not, I should be able to make key observations of my enviornment. I might not be able to see a particular sword to pick it up, or a racoon in a tree, but I would know that I am in a forest. Period. That is common sense. Then again, common sense isn't common.

As soon as they take away the ability for grey's to ADJUST THIER ENVIORNMENT with torches, and continual light so they can see in the night, is exactly when your arguments for "balance" become valid. Until then your spouting nonsense and rhetoric that has been spouted over and over.

If 'darkness' on a item made the room darker so that Ultravision races could see during the day, then the playing field would be level'd somewhat. This is nothing about the best of both worlds. It is the same as Infra, but in opposite time frames. That is what we are asking for, and not even that. We want to see the room names, not necessarily mobs in the room.
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Postby Uzzel » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:24 am

A idea could be to let people send tells, a to me ooc metod of comunication, to people in the sun with ultra, to people in the dark as humans and even to invis/hidden people with di/see hidden (As if we'll ever get that :P)

This could reduce the friction created when someone think they are being ignored while sending tells to drows while sitting on the beach workin on their tan as some trolls do!

Uzzel
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:35 pm

If you're talking about balancing grey elves and drow, then do feel free to remove DK from the main map, remove most of the decent experience from the area and yank drow innates.

I realize you guys don't want a challenge anymore, but is there some reason drow need to be EASIER than every other race to play? If you want to play a grey elf, then by all means, feel free to roll up a grey elf. If you want to be a drow, then you take the good and the bad of it. Jaznolg always preached the benefits of ultravision and wouldn't have it any other way... did something about it suddenly become intolerable, or is this just another symptom of the general "dumbing down" of the entire mud that's been happening lately?
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Postby Waelos » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:32 pm

Gromi-

All I was saying is that if Drow innates are as crappy and useless as you seem to indicate, then why not just restring drow as greys, and just put purple ansi "drow" flag on the character? That will give you all the abilities to adapt to the night/day whatever that you seek, and you won't miss those 'crappy' innates at all! That is all I'm saying.

If you don't want to do that, I think you need to be prepared to say that those 'crappy' innates aren't so crappy after all.

Fair?

Lost.
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Postby Gura » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:01 pm

why remove dk?
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

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Postby Salen » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:11 pm

I'm thinking she meant because it is insanely easy to xp to what 40? So an added bonus for drow is they dont have to leave town to xp... while greys are stuck in low xp zones till 20.

Not justifying anything, I don't really care one way or the other, but if dayblind isn't a problem, just delete snakes as that is their ONLY niche.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:34 pm

I didn't say remove DK, I said remove it from the main map. You know, put it on the other side of the ocean where all the little trolls and ogres can't get to it for the exp train.
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Postby Dizzin » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:40 pm

Salen wrote:Not justifying anything, I don't really care one way or the other, but if dayblind isn't a problem, just delete snakes as that is their ONLY niche.


Well, that and illusionists. And they make half-decent clerics now too. Plus I dont think darkies being able to see the roomname in daylight is going to steal that "niche"...

But I do agree! Delete Yuans! Down with the forked tongue, no ear-having, tailwrapping, messed-up hometown-living, sorryass excuses for player characters!

Have hated them since I started playing here and I dont think anything else would make me so happy as to having them removed to make way for minor changes to drow and duergar. :P

Buuuuut, since that's prolly not going to happen, let's perhaps take a look at changing up Ultravision, in some way or another!

Also, I think it would make sense for goodies to gain an Ultravision race. Give them.. Svirfneblin! Can have basically the exact same stats as regular gnomes, with just Ultra instead of infra. And I'm sure Svirfs have a couple innates to go along with it too. In fact, just taking a quick look through a manual, innate invis and innate blur 1/day look like they'd be proper and not terribly unbalancing. But I bet you do that, and you'd still see VERY few people playing them over regular gnomes. And without any changes to Ultravision, you'd see NO one bother with it.

Of course, the staff seem more loathe to add new races than even new classes, so I guess that probably wouldn't happen anytime soon..

Oh well.
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:01 pm

Innate blur? Time to make Svirfneblin warriors.
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Postby Vahok » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:07 pm

Gromikazer wrote:Even in pitch black as a human in real life I can understand my surroundings and whats going on around me, by simple touch, sounds and smells. If you belive that if your blind folded you can't tell your in a desert, or in a forest, or on a mountain, then your senses have been dulled beyond a point of disbelief.

No matter if I can see or not, I should be able to make key observations of my enviornment. I might not be able to see a particular sword to pick it up, or a racoon in a tree, but I would know that I am in a forest. Period. That is common sense. Then again, common sense isn't common.

As soon as they take away the ability for grey's to ADJUST THIER ENVIORNMENT with torches, and continual light so they can see in the night, is exactly when your arguments for "balance" become valid. Until then your spouting nonsense and rhetoric that has been spouted over and over.

If 'darkness' on a item made the room darker so that Ultravision races could see during the day, then the playing field would be level'd somewhat. This is nothing about the best of both worlds. It is the same as Infra, but in opposite time frames. That is what we are asking for, and not even that. We want to see the room names, not necessarily mobs in the room.


Man, you really don't get the point. Sure, if I was blindfolded in real life, I could tell I was in desert. But I sure as hell wouldn't know what desert I was in. And yes, if I bumped into a tree, I'd know it was a tree. But which forest? Personally, if the room name was very vague, I could see that being "balanced". Example, a drow is standing the middle of the Cali desert...room name (Desert). But sorry, if you're blind, you don't know which one you're in. Older characters would get the idea (I've been here many times, I know where I am) but newbie or inexperienced players would not.

So you can stick your "common sense" reference where the sun doesn't shine...you'll see it there.
Last edited by Vahok on Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Dizzin » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:09 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Innate blur? Time to make Svirfneblin warriors.


Shrug, at once/day it wouldn't be a big deal. As is true of ALL innates that aren't always active. They're nice in a pinch, but wont unbalance the game.
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Postby chandigar » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:11 pm

<worn on eyes> a pair of underdark ray-bans
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:26 pm

<worn on eyes> Yayaril's knuckles

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