Another ogre question

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Thilindel
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Another ogre question

Postby Thilindel » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:05 am

Stupid site. This is my 3rd attempt to post. Firstly, in the mud, ogres are innately 2x stronger than the strongest of humans. Then you think about Schwarzenegger's interview promoting his first Conan movie...during which, he dual wielded a pair of 30 pounders. Despite 30 lb each, he was VERY agile. He said he had spent 2 weeks of training. Just why is it ogre's can't dual these things? In AD&D, there are numerous ogre 'daggers' that are really 2h swords for humans. And for redundancy, Schwarzenegger was NOT the strongest of ppl, just bulky. His strength was quite average for a bodybuilder. He said his bench was around 390 lb (his routine sets) so I'd really like to push Ogres playability.
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Postby rylan » Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:24 pm

I'd go with that. I also think that in addition to crazy strength ogres should also have more at least 50 HPs from a higher con notch.
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Postby rer » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:32 pm

Yeah, I know a guy who's trying to become a professional body builder and complains that he's only putting up 500 some pounds on the bench. I told him that was like 8 times what I could put up, so he needs to shut up! The reason he hasn't "gone pro" in modeling, etc. is that he thinks he still needs to gain another 10-15 pounds of muscle. Crazy people.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:02 am

Yeesh! And I thought I was doing well with 220 :P I only weigh 180 tho, but I'm totally lazy. Any admin comment on this about the ogres? Sucks putting up posts on ideas when no admin reply, feedback is good! Shev's always asking for it! *nod me*
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ogre warriors

Postby daggaz » Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:30 pm

Im all for anything at all that can breath life into this once cool and now long dead class. (Try who ogre war sort, you will be lucky to find one).

Back when they first went in, they could one hand with many 2h swords, and even dualwield some of them based on weight, str, and item restrictions. It rocked. Later on they could even scavenge in woodland areas to wield tree trunks. A fun twist and a boon to the younger players.

Nowadays they are pretty much worthless, having been outclassed in nearly all of their major attributes.

Need to do lots of damage? Take a voker. Need it to be hitter damage? Take a rogue. Ok, how about a tank with lots of hps? Bring a troll (or even a duergar) with solid eq and good spells. I mean, ogres are hardcoded to be lousy at defense, and it is obvious in battle. They quickly lose the 200 or so base hps they get over trolls. Want a doorbasher? Might as well bring an ogre shaman, cuz at least they can also gheal, albeit slowly. Which brings us to the one and only thing ogres can do better than anybody else.

Bashing. Yep, if you are going to brass and you dont think it is easy enough already, ogres can bash efreeti! But thats about it.... You can roll an ogre for max height and weight, give it all the max height/weight eq in the game you can find (even before eq changes), spell it up with enlarge and earthembody in the proper order for max effect, and you still cant bash a lousy giant. Let alone a demon. Yay. So have fun being the brass-master with your ogre warrior.

Too bad, cuz ogre warriors are the epitamy of what many people think of when rolling a warrior. Looks like they are going the way of berserkers, to me.
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Postby daggaz » Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:45 pm

Since ogre warriors are outclassed, leaving ogres with basically only shamanism as a realistic job opportunity, i suggest opening up a new class to them. Behold,...


THE OGRE ROGUE!

pros
1.Wields 1handers like daggers.
2.Ogre power damage multiplied on rogue tables.
3.If it misses backstab, it gets a surprise headbutt attack for devestating effect.
4.A backstab-like bodyslam for improved bodyslam results.

cons
1.Nearly impossible for it to sneak without fly or levitation.
2.VERY hard for it to hide, especially indoors. (dark caves and woodlands the exception)
3.Stealing? Laugh! (except for giant mobs...tho still almost guaranteed to fail)
4.Lock picking?! DOORBASH you stupid ogre! (except for giant doors flagged as such)
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Postby Pril » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:01 pm

Hmmmm... i rememeber having an ogre merc when gods allowed us to play around for a bit.... let's just say ogre backstab is similar to assassinate :p

And you have to account that "hard to sneak" wear a sneak item (yeah they're rare but i'm sure gura or someone will roll an ogre rogue just cuz they can, plus tia is going in "soon" :p)

Pril
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Postby Yasden » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:30 pm

Ogre and troll mercs didn't have backstab, noob :P. Unless you're referring to some sort of Chaos incident and the skill was given to you manually. I asked about this countless times, and no one would give me a straight answer, only a Kia-ish response (because we said so).

My belief was because Mystra hated evils...who knows.
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Postby Pril » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:37 pm

It was for chaos, you n00b :p just couldn't remember how many years ago.

Pril
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Postby Yasden » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:48 pm

Read my above statement again, second sentence.
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Postby Pril » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:02 pm

I know i read it, just felt like calling ya a n00b yas, there qa problem wid dat? :p

pril
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Postby Gura » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:21 pm

let me wield a 2hander and wear a shield and ill be happy. altho if u wanna give my 65 dam ogre backstab feel free. i dont mind.
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Postby Vaprak » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:34 pm

As far as I can recall and from what I was told when I querried these questions "back in the day" the reason troll and ogre mercenaries didn't have backstab is a) they weren't agile/dextrous/sneaky enough (bs on the troll not being agile as we all well know) and b) it would be unbalancing due to their str modifier on the backstab. Not that any mercenaries I ever knew were terribly effective with their backstab skill except Jaeron.

Also much the same goes for ogres wielding 2handed weapons, it was basically deemed too powerful back then, and I can't say as though I personally disagree with that notion now either. Sure it would be cool, and it sort of makes sense, but wielding 2h weapons in 1 hand not only throws off the equipment balance theories of all incarnations of this MUD but also by proxy zone balance.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:02 pm

What's the heaviest 1h weapon an !ogre can wield wearing all +max_str gear they can get?

Wondering if it's possible to make a 1h weapon only an ogre could wield because of the weight (with or without +max_str gear mind you).
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Postby Pril » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:07 pm

let ogre's prime wield a 2h weopon. an ogre wearing a shield and wielding a twilight would be a huge upgrade *nod self*
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:13 pm

Zone builders that want to make something cool could make a weapon so heavy that no other race could wield it.
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Postby Yasden » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:31 pm

Dwarves have the same str modifier as trolls do...which is why I felt the whole damage modifier argument being an even bigger crock. :P

The ultimate reason I was given was:

"Trolls and ogres smell. Anyone would smell them before they got close enough to stab them in the back.'

*roll*

:P
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:52 am

Vaprak wrote:Also much the same goes for ogres wielding 2handed weapons, it was basically deemed too powerful back then, and I can't say as though I personally disagree with that notion now either.


Even if they could, any khanjari rogue will rip these potential dual wielding 2 handers a new a-hole. There's no balance problem in the ogre vs. rogue argument. rogues own ogres. An ogre with max dex gets 5 innate hitroll. Humans max hitroll is 6. Trolls agility is higher than a halflings, trolls dex is similar to humans. They do get 6 innate hitroll potentially. I don't think the backstab argument from back then is applicable (even then) due to when I saw Sojourn 1, that was when doombringer and other insane eq was about. Invokers still are crazy damage and can keep it up. one backstab and mobs awareness is too high typically.
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Postby Crumar » Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:08 am

Where the heck is Sok he is slacking. He finally got Gura downgraded now its Guwa's turn. If Gura says he didn't get downgraded he is lying. That is all.
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Postby daggaz » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:30 pm

Heh the ogre rogue thing was more of a joke than any kind of serious hope... And i definitely didnt mean (or say) that ogre warriors should be given backstab.

But I honestly can't believe ogres wielding a two hander while using a shield would seriously unbalance anything. I imagine they would still be way behind topline rogues without all their multiple attacks and damage modifiers. And not even in the same league as vokers. But what now if they really did come up to par with rogues? Unbalance? Hardly, just two highly different melee classes to choose from who do similiar damage, instead of just one. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Really it would just give them a little edge up as a melee class, as well as making them a little more fun and special. Evil pbase is small, but I think it still stands for itself that there is only one (1) ogre warrior who plays regularly as a main char.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:07 pm

That and the dual wield skill for warriors is capped too low (I think I was told it was 50) Just doesn't make sense.
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Postby ssar » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:00 am

Agree, ogres do seem to need some enhancement to make them more viable. They seem to be more of a token class for a bit of fun, rather than a useful and capable option for the high end game.
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Postby Eilorn » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:59 pm

Ogres aren't as agile as trolls because of their thick elephantine skin which is just not as flexible. This could translate to several things: %reduction in damage, increased innate AC, resistances to acid/fire. I'm thinking 10% damage reduction, naked AC of 50... Wouldn't this help ogres?

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Postby Thilindel » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:45 pm

The innate AC would rock. What's sad is they're the only warrior capable race that I know of that are complete jokes as a main tank. It's 'ogre tennis' as you've never seen when they do tank!
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Postby ssar » Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:03 am

rylan wrote:I'd go with that. I also think that in addition to crazy strength ogres should also have more at least 50 HPs from a higher con notch.


Yeah.
And/or how about some Ogre Warrior skill similar to vital strike though more frequent, like some super heavy crush where the Ogre manages to land an extra heavy blow, which could happen on any strike in hitall as well, with chance to stunning and damaging the foe(s) mightily.

And perhaps something then to improve Ogre Shaman, like some innate earth stomp, where they can stomp on the ground a certain amount of times per day and its like area earthquake, or something.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:39 pm

or how bout some praytime love :(
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Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:41 pm

i like the idea of giving ogres some sort of innate damage reduction perhaps vs non magical weapons or only against barehanded situations.

i don't like the idea of improving a race that is already very very abnormal.

especially with memtimes.

players will pit whatever abnormal characteristics you give them against mobs while shielding the abnormal weaknesses. Does an ogre really suffer from having a terrible charisma and int? maybe if there was a real game economy, psi mobs all over the place, or agro was dependent on charisma ogres would be balanced, however currently I see ogres as having some very powerful attributes (str, con, size) and one glaring weakness (agility).
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Postby Yasden » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:41 am

Well, the problem with ogres is that they have already been given a bonus to make them more playable: size.

A normal ogre isn't nearly as big as a troll. That, coupled with the insane str/con bonuses they already get was their initial incentive to make them playable when compared to a troll.

I would suggest fixing melee first before looking into racial innates/bonuses, especially with ogres. However, if you were to say...give them the ability to dual wield 2handed weapons, I would strongly suggest this be implemented and their default size reduced to where it should be. The str/con bonuses should and do need to stay, else they become as useless as a gnome cleric.

However, in regards to dual wielding anything, the cap for warriors in this is set at 50. It really needs to be raised. Weight on any weapon should determine whether or not it can be dual wielded...2h or not. There's no reason why even a barbarian warrior couldn't dual wield a couple of wt10 2h broadswords (albeit that is extremely lightweight).

So really, this is more of a class/item flags issue, not a racial one. Both ogres *and* trolls need another class option instead of the two they're limited to. Zerkers and mercs come to mind, feel free to suggest others. That alone would make them both more desirable races to play.

I only rolled a troll this wipe around because I loathe ultravision. Otherwise I would've went with duergar. A lot of the time the stupid insane damage from fire spells (especially the still-existing fire embody vs. cloud quadruple damage bug) isn't worth the rewards of playing a highly soloable race (not everyone has tons of save/hp gear to toss on for a caster fight).

I rolled my shaman as ogre because I enjoy the natural high hp, which allows me to sacrifice some hps in favor of prots/saves/maxwis. Granted, he's stupid as a rock, but with 120 ogre wis he's pretty average for a human, and he doesn't get roasted to fire spells. Yeah, I should've rolled orc, but it's a lot more fun to do stuff as an ogre IMHO (tons of stuff unable to bash you, innate doorbash).

Just my thoughts!

T

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