Hide msgs

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zodana
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Hide msgs

Postby zodana » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:00 am

Why not put Homeland style hide success msgs in? As it is now w/o them its merely a inconvienence since everyone uses group triggers to do the same thing. Plz cut the group spam just a little bit more!
Pril
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Postby Pril » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:07 pm

eh it's nice i guess but it's a question of skill. I know most high level rogues don't even check with group anymore. if they type hide, they're hidden. no questions asked. but at lower levels yeah would be nice.

Pril
zodana
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Postby zodana » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:25 pm

Right on the money Pril. Recently I've been helping a couple of little rogues without "alt" eq. Lots of questions on skills etc. It doesnt take long for them to figure out that hide is a critical skill. Just watch one CR and they know thier upcoming role in some groups. But they are clueless if they are hiding. Cant figure out why, unlike pick lock, or sneak that it is messageless.

Its not a big deal at all. just a nice thing, easy thing to change. Not having a hide msg really doesnt serve a purpose other than to be hardship on noobs, and spam gsays.

:P
grundar
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Postby grundar » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:46 am

how about a message for when you stop sneaking when using it in combination with hide.. you lose your concentration and stop sneaking or something like that... homeland had it
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:49 pm

I'm sorry guys, but rogue sneak/hide skills are already powerful enough in this game without giving the rogues the ability to read every mob in the room's minds so they can know whether or not they successfully hid. There's supposed to be a chance of failure when your skills aren't maxed, and if you have a message to tell you whether or not you're hidden, you just keep hiding until you're successful... so where does the risk of failure come in with a system like that? Heck, even with my skills maxed there's still a chance of failure for me, and that's bitten me on the ass more than once, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

We really do have it easy enough already, don't you think?
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:35 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I'm sorry guys, but rogue sneak/hide skills are already powerful enough in this game without giving the rogues the ability to read every mob in the room's minds so they can know whether or not they successfully hid. There's supposed to be a chance of failure when your skills aren't maxed, and if you have a message to tell you whether or not you're hidden, you just keep hiding until you're successful... so where does the risk of failure come in with a system like that? Heck, even with my skills maxed there's still a chance of failure for me, and that's bitten me on the ass more than once, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

We really do have it easy enough already, don't you think?


Agreed.
Aristan group-says 'nurpy=tripod'

Shevarash GCC: 'Tiamat stands here, fighting Nurpy.'
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:34 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:I'm sorry guys, but rogue sneak/hide skills are already powerful enough in this game without giving the rogues the ability to read every mob in the room's minds so they can know whether or not they successfully hid. There's supposed to be a chance of failure when your skills aren't maxed, and if you have a message to tell you whether or not you're hidden, you just keep hiding until you're successful... so where does the risk of failure come in with a system like that? Heck, even with my skills maxed there's still a chance of failure for me, and that's bitten me on the ass more than once, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

We really do have it easy enough already, don't you think?


Agreed.


x2
Lahgen
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:36 pm

I'm gonna play devil's advocate in favor of Zodana here...

So what if it's easy, Ashiwi? It's just a fun pastime, not the Olympics. Will your life have less meaning if certain high level players here don't think you're "hardcore" just because the mud is easier than it probably should be? Let rogues have their messages. How will that change your life for the worse?
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'

Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:06 pm

Gee, Lahgen... I haven't noticed any of these efforts to make this mud easier bringing in any more pbase. It certainly didn't help Homeland, did it? Instead, it seems the easier it gets, the more people leave... and while they might not be leaving because the game is so dumbed down that it's not a challenge anymore, the timing is definitely difficult to ignore.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Corth
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Postby Corth » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:08 pm

Lahgen,

This is a game, not a chat room... though some may argue that point. If you want to play tic-tac-toe and not be very challenged, be my guest. I think most people will disagree with you, however, when you insinuate that Toril should be devoid of any challenge.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Lahgen
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:38 pm

Oh, I'm not saying there should be no challenge.

I'm just saying, you don't want the game decided by people who want less challenge, right?

Well, I don't want the game decided by people who insist on more and more challenge.

Where do you draw the line?
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:44 pm

Lahgen wrote:Oh, I'm not saying there should be no challenge.

I'm just saying, you don't want the game decided by people who want less challenge, right?

Well, I don't want the game decided by people who insist on more and more challenge.

Where do you draw the line?


Insist on more and more? Looks like to me we are trying to keep the challenge that already exists..
Aristan group-says 'nurpy=tripod'

Shevarash GCC: 'Tiamat stands here, fighting Nurpy.'
Lahgen
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:47 pm

Ah, but look at all the people who say that there's too much good gear in SPOB or Musp Invasion.

Look at all the people who want to see vokers downgraded.

Look at all the people who think that CR should be a major ordeal with guaranteed risk of gear loss.

Look at all the people who, like me, think that Khanjari and/or Rogue Melee should be downgraded.

That's not merely holding onto what we have.

Heck, I can think of all sorts of little ways to make the game more frustrating, if the imms wanted to up the ante a bit.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Pril
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Postby Pril » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:57 pm

Lahgen wrote:Ah, but look at all the people who say that there's too much good gear in SPOB or Musp Invasion.


Gods are dowgrading musp inv slowly, but it takes time.

Lahgen wrote:Look at all the people who want to see vokers downgraded.


They don't play invokers and usually have no idea what they are talking about.

Lahgen wrote:Look at all the people who think that CR should be a major ordeal with guaranteed risk of gear loss.


Eh everyone deserves an opinion.

Lahgen wrote:Look at all the people who, like me, think that Khanjari and/or Rogue Melee should be downgraded.


First quest the dagger then complain about it being too powerful...

Lahgen wrote:That's not merely holding onto what we have.


We ignore them too :p *grin*

Lahgen wrote:Heck, I can think of all sorts of little ways to make the game more frustrating, if the imms wanted to up the ante a bit.


Not trying to make the game MORE frustrating, just trying to keep it as frustrating as it is :p Heck if gods wanted it more frustrating they'd load 10 Ancients dragons in every hometown and 1 at every guild master :p

Pril :p
rer
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Postby rer » Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:02 pm

Lahgen wrote:Ah, but look at all the people who say that there's too much good gear in SPOB or Musp Invasion.

Look at all the people who want to see vokers downgraded.

Look at all the people who think that CR should be a major ordeal with guaranteed risk of gear loss.

Look at all the people who, like me, think that Khanjari and/or Rogue Melee should be downgraded.

That's not merely holding onto what we have.

Heck, I can think of all sorts of little ways to make the game more frustrating, if the imms wanted to up the ante a bit.


I agree with most of those points on DGs Lahgen. However, I think you're missing pieces to some of them.

People are requesting that Musp Invasion and SPOB gear be spread around so that all of the top tier eq doesn't come from 2 zones - which means that more zones will be done.

Removing a little bit of power from Invokers isn't going to hurt the MUD much, just means that damage isn't the sole realm of one class.

Not sure I agree with the people who are proponents of guarunteed EQ loss in a CR, but I don't think it should be the easiest thing in the world. Forcing a group to go in after their corpses is something that area writers can do, however, so I think we make that up to the area writers based on how they feel about their zone.

Khanjari's should be downgraded considering they make rogues uber powerful. Rogue melee damage doesnt really need to be DG'd, but other classes melee damage does need a boost.

Tweaks are a part of the game. The ones above are not necessarily making the game harder, just more interesting and more diverse. One of the things that the HomeLand players have suggested is that the game is about to become a lot harder because of the HL zones being ported over, without some of the specialized skills/spells from Homeland. Their point is that there are several zones that will not be doable. If that's the case, then we stand to see a whole lot of growth in skills and spells - and probably in eq as well - to make sure that things, while still challenging, are at least doable.

Oh, and by the way, my favorite zone at the moment is Choking Palace - which still hasn't been completed successfully. The challenge is still out there for players that want it. I agree, don't make things harder than they need to be - but PLEASE, don't make things any easier either.
Ihazim
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Postby Ihazim » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:39 am

This might be a little late in response since i just read this thread but..

Just because some people feel rogues are over powered doesn't mean a class should be left out for any type of update.
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:37 am

Lahgen wrote:Ah, but look at all the people who say that there's too much good gear in SPOB or Musp Invasion.

Look at all the people who want to see vokers downgraded.

Look at all the people who think that CR should be a major ordeal with guaranteed risk of gear loss.

Look at all the people who, like me, think that Khanjari and/or Rogue Melee should be downgraded.

That's not merely holding onto what we have.

Heck, I can think of all sorts of little ways to make the game more frustrating, if the imms wanted to up the ante a bit.


I'm not talking about all that other crap. I'm talking about rogues. I'm talking about this thread. I don't go off on a tangent about other things when I find my main argument is faulty.


Ihazim wrote:Just because some people feel rogues are over powered doesn't mean a class should be left out for any type of update.


Update for what? What has been changed that rogues need this update?


Edit: Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but making the game so easy the players we have leave is one thing I'm strongly against.
Aristan group-says 'nurpy=tripod'

Shevarash GCC: 'Tiamat stands here, fighting Nurpy.'
zodana
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Postby zodana » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:26 pm

All of the high level rogues admit a hide msg makes No difference to them once thier skills are maxed. Its not intended for high level rogues. Its merely a convenience for lower level rogues.

Its a convenience soley because the majority of rogues, and probably (my guess) 1 out of 5 non-rogues have hide related triggers that do the same thing. I've been in a dozen groups with little rogues when the warrior or the cleric pop off and say "You should make a trigger that ask exactly his word when you attempt to hide - hidden?" "Because I have a counter trigger to tell you yes/no"

So.

If you think there is some major change here you are kidding youself. Its being done as commonly as "stand" triggers.

And since it is so common I thought in nice to remove another unneccesary common trigger from the game and leave it on the gameside like Homeland did.

I played Homeland, and it surely didnt bring the game to a halt because it created a enviroment too easy for the players. It did not create a class of moron rogues, or detract from the game. It was another simple common sense idea that Homeland got right and we ignore in a attempt to prove to ourselves that we are somehow uber players. They brought lots of little nifty things like this server side instead of client side. There is no slippery slope here! Just some commone sense to handlt the things players do themselves in a bailing wire and duct tape manner already.

Come on! a hide msg is making things too easy? You guys are pounding out this rhetoric for every change that has a iota of effect on long held ideas that classes/mud should be tough.

Now if this was going to change the hide success rate? Well then I would agree and follow that argument. But it does not. It doesnt do anything that isnt being done in gsays all the time. Gsays that could be removed frm group spam and given over to the rogue from the server side.

blah
Ihazim
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Postby Ihazim » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:26 pm

to reply nurpy,
its just my opinion but the difficulty of this mud shouldn't come from inconvenience. ie, the inconvenience of not knowing when you're hidden. This only adds to the fact that levels sub 45 are useless. The game should be enjoyable from 1-50 not 45-50.

seriously i think that some people just enjoyed the old toril where things were insanely difficult but today they confuse that with making things overly inconvenient
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:51 pm

Actually, besides the fact that the game seems to be going through a phase where players expect it to accommodate them completely so they don't ever have to worry about effort on their own behalves, the thing about the message that I really don't like is the atmosphere it gives. I don't know if you ever played hide and seek as a kid, or tried to hide to jump out at your parents to "scare" them, but I don't remember anybody standing around telling me whether or not I was hidden. Who is there to tell you that you successfully hid? Are the monsters standing to the side rating your hiding skills? If you want to write up a trigger so your group members will let you know if you're hidden or not, go for it. Personally, I'd rather see it not even accommodate that, because how is somebody on the other side of a mountain supposed to know whether or not you really got your entire body behind that stand of weeds?

All of the high level rogues admit a hide msg makes No difference to them once thier skills are maxed.


Really? All the high level rogues? Is that right? I certainly didn't say that. I think I mentioned that I've failed hide before a couple of times and gotten my ass kicked because of it, even with my hide skill maxed out. I was just talking to another rogue that has his skills almost maxed out, who died to a failed hide when he didn't realize he'd failed. Now admittedly he's not 50 yet, but he's almost 50, and he has his skills maxed for his level. He is also a long-term player who has been here through multiple wipes.

Quoting Sylvos with his permission:

nods, they're not arguing the need for failure. they just want to know. and you and I both know that if you know when you fail, you'll never die to failed hide
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Pril
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Postby Pril » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:03 pm

Pril wrote:eh it's nice i guess but it's a question of skill. I know most high level rogues don't even check with group anymore. if they type hide, they're hidden. no questions asked. but at lower levels yeah would be nice.

Pril


I wrote that, i didn't mean that we never fail sneak/hide just meant that high level rogues don't fail it enough to bother checking if they are hidden. I may fail 1 in 100 or so (pulled that number out of my ass haven't actually tested).

Persoanlly i agree with ashiwi that a group member telling you that yer hidden from cp while yer in gn is a little absurd but as the code stands nothing can realy be done about it.

I also agree with Zadona, it would be a nice skill for low level rogues, but at the same time it's good practice. One thing i learned as a rogue is to be careful even when i thought i was hidden it's saved me a bunch. Rogues should always be alert, one time (as an example) i was running around MD and my sneak ran out (talk about a hard learned lesson running around md trying to rehide/diguise myself with half of md chasing me) :p But that skill applies in zones when stuff goes to hell and a rogue eneds to get out and sneak/hide to hold pop while being chased by agro's. While it would be beneficial to small rogues i also think that it would take some of the fun (at least i had fun trying to live) away from it. But eh that's my 2 cent ramble, really there's very few rogues out there that actually fully use/enjoy their class to its full potential.
Crumar
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Postby Crumar » Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:12 am

Please don't add that message. I am all for making sure Cofen dies many times while trying to hide. I am not worried about Ashiwi she can always hide so she doesn't need this message. Plus I am sure Shev enjoys the death log just as much as we enjoy watching it occure :P
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