Why The Bull's Eye Bonus is Bunk - And Other Myths Gnawed At

[teflor the ranger]

<Idea A> Let's awward xp based on how far away players are from a hometown!

1) There are quite a few hometowns on the mud. You could just simply pick the hometown furthest from where you want to spend your time.

2) There are quite a few hometowns on the mud. Getting further from one hometown tends to put you closer to another hometown.

3) Being far away from your hometown does not make you explore. It makes you learn how to get to that nice XP spot far away from your hometown. That's it. If you even learn how to get there and not depend on other people to form groups and walks you over there - and back. *cough*

<Idea B> Level 50 Newb.

1) Is you.

<Idea C> Things are too difficult for new players to level and gain experience and equipment.

1) Getting to level 50 is difficult. Getting a full set of zonable eq is difficult. They're supposed to be. This is not the problem.

2) The real issue is that it's boring as hell to be mid-level.

<Idea D> The imms are punishing us for grouping by not giving us more xp by adding people in order to make things easier. Easier means more experience right? There should be more reward for smaller feats. In fact, the smaller the adversity overcome, the MORE rewards there should be!!!

1) *smack*

<Idea E> We want to allow more people into our guild.

1) Larger guilds mean fewer guilds, expanded clique isolation, more dramatic politics, and basically back to high school. Thanks a lot.

2) Isn't even football or computer club. Seriously.

3) Why don't we put in guild halls so we can TP each other?


</>

[Sarell]

Im not sure what you're talking about, but upgrade trophy downgrade exp tables, remove all !kill exp anyhow. *touch*

[Yayaril]

8)

With arguments like "*smack*" and "Is you", how could we not be convinced?

[kiryan]

How can you expect to have experienced level 50 players when the 1-40 game is drastically different from the 41-50 game?

Really, how many of us weren't noobs at 50 on our first ever character....

being a noob really doesnt have a lot to do with where you exp'd.

[teflor the ranger]

being a noob really doesnt have a lot to do with where you exp'd.

Exactly my point. It has to do with HOW they got to where they are.

[Salen]

being a noob really doesnt have a lot to do with where you exp'd.

Exactly my point. It has to do with HOW they got to where they are.

If that was your point, why did it take Ideas A-E to get to it? Did you fall in your own idiot trap and weren't able to escape?

[Lorsalian]

How can you expect to have experienced level 50 players when the 1-40 game is drastically different from the 41-50 game?

Really, how many of us weren't noobs at 50 on our first ever character....

being a noob really doesnt have a lot to do with where you exp'd.

Never got to 50 with my first character (47 was the highest I got), but I'd explored more than a few people I've met who are 30+ (fewer with 40+, thankfully)

(Unsure if this strengthens or counters your comments -- thinking more reinforcement)

[teflor the ranger]

being a noob really doesnt have a lot to do with where you exp'd.

Exactly my point. It has to do with HOW they got to where they are.

If that was your point, why did it take Ideas A-E to get to it? Did you fall in your own idiot trap and weren't able to escape?

It's called intelligent argument, Salen.

Let me try to educate you:

First the argument is presented with it's underlying warrants,
then your reasoning behind the arguments and claims.

Second, you consider the oppositional ideas and try to respond to them ahead of time.

Third, you marginalize all the useless, unintelligent comments by talking them down - and perhaps trying to educate them in the process.

Salen, honestly, you'd look a lot smarter if you just didn't say anything at all. That's just good advice there. You might also want to understand that the points being discussed have presented several arguments - not just one.

[Salen]

Since you feel like this was 'intellegent argument'

<Idea A> Let's awward xp based on how far away players are from a hometown!

1) There are quite a few hometowns on the mud. You could just simply pick the hometown furthest from where you want to spend your time.

2) There are quite a few hometowns on the mud. Getting further from one hometown tends to put you closer to another hometown.
</>

Group arguments 1&2. In truth there are only 3 hometowns on the mud. DK, WD, and Leuth. No one spends time in the other towns except when they die. Thus this is a moot point. If you 'bullseye' based on WD/DK (Leuth at 20+ = WD) you achieve the underlying goal of forcing people to leave the hometown areas..

3) Being far away from your hometown does not make you explore. It makes you learn how to get to that nice XP spot far away from your hometown. That's it. If you even learn how to get there and not depend on other people to form groups and walks you over there - and back. *cough*
</>

Very true, however the likelihood of exploring is increased by the act of travel. Each step you take is one more chance for you to get sidetracked into doing something different. While it may not be a massive increase of chance, it is better than the given alternative, which in your argument is nothing. Status Quo fails to address the situation. Comparitive advantage to distance modifier.

<Idea B> Level 50 Newb.

1) Is you.
</>

Lack of warrants, lack of criterion, lack of alt. Flow out of round.

<Idea C> Things are too difficult for new players to level and gain experience and equipment.

1) Getting to level 50 is difficult. Getting a full set of zonable eq is difficult. They're supposed to be. This is not the problem.

2) The real issue is that it's boring as hell to be mid-level.
</>

Again, the SQ does not solve either the stated issue (difficulty) nor your restated issue (boring). Also, it does not take into consideration the dynamic lack large numbers of truly new players, creating the additional hardships of leveling/eq'ing without help similar to that shortly after pwipe. No alt given, no criterion for measure, flow out of round.

<Idea D> The imms are punishing us for grouping by not giving us more xp by adding people in order to make things easier. Easier means more experience right? There should be more reward for smaller feats. In fact, the smaller the adversity overcome, the MORE rewards there should be!!!

1) *smack*
</>

No alt,crit, given. No argument made. Flow out of round.

<Idea E> We want to allow more people into our guild.

1) Larger guilds mean fewer guilds, expanded clique isolation, more dramatic politics, and basically back to high school. Thanks a lot.

2) Isn't even football or computer club. Seriously.

3) Why don't we put in guild halls so we can TP each other?

</>

The very nature of guilds is clique in nature. Since guilds were added to the game, the intent is assumed to be to form these cliques. Thus your argument is a turn that larger = better in terms of original intent.

Further, there are those that claim dramatic politics will increase activity not decrease (http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14319). Not only does the argument disregard intent, it also implies guilds are in general bad, then again fails to give alternative to the indicted SQ.

In all 3 standing arguments, the status quo is indicted with no alternative given.

Idea A explains SQ has no incentive for xp, then offers no alternative, while the bull's eye plan offers a minimal chance of exploration. Comparative advantage.

Idea B baseless Flow out

Idea C SQ again indicted (boring) but no alternative to plan is given. Plan stands as comparative advantage over SQ.

Idea D baseless Flow out

Idea E SQ features clique, isolationist guilds added after start. Intent served and plan increase the effect. No alternative given Comparative Advantage based on intent.

Both SQ and plan are indicted. If SQ is not adequate, something must be done. In the void of any alternative, plan is the only remaining option. Neg fails to give any criterion to measure warrants on and fails to give a counter plan to solve SQ. Given 3 comparitive advantages and no disads, the choice is clear, Vote Aff and take Bullseye plan/easier advancement/larger guild halls.

I am now open for cross examination.

[Deltin]

Teflor you seemed to have missed the bullseye hehehe aka the point/bigger picture. The builders have invested lots of time and effort in to making zones. It's a shame that the mid level ones don't get explored or done. What I was suggesting were ideas so those zones just didn't sit there unused. Your shooting down ideas really is just a waste of time, that's easy to do, what I was attempting to do was start some ideas and discussions. Those zones are explored by a hand few of people at most, and certainly not newbies but I would bet people who are just bored. As I pointed out before, that graveyard zone just south of wd....

[Salen]

Sorry Deltin, even though you hit the nail right on the head, you didn't follow Teflor's 'Intelligent Argument' rules; you lose.

[Thilindel]

Okay, everybody. I opt to keep the thread w/o insults! :) Remember Cyric's request to watch Bambi!

My only true frustration with xp is that there are some classes that are virtually screwed in the solo department. If there were a way to get a scardale type room or just quick heal (it's been suggested many times before) that would be great.

[Lorsalian]

First of all, lack of viable alternative does not indicate a good idea. A trite example would be falling into a pit of spikes. It could be said that the alternative would be NOT falling. However, for the purposes of this example, the SQ _could_ be that of halfway down the pit. :p Jokes aside, let us begin the cross examination.

Since you feel like this was 'intellegent argument'

<Idea A> Let's awward xp based on how far away players are from a hometown!

1) There are quite a few hometowns on the mud. You could just simply pick the hometown furthest from where you want to spend your time.


2) There are quite a few hometowns on the mud. Getting further from one hometown tends to put you closer to another hometown.
</>

Group arguments 1&2. In truth there are only 3 hometowns on the mud. DK, WD, and Leuth. No one spends time in the other towns except when they die. Thus this is a moot point. If you 'bullseye' based on WD/DK (Leuth at 20+ = WD) you achieve the underlying goal of forcing people to leave the hometown areas..

A hometown is DEFINED as the place you start at level 1 and when you die. If you wish to redefine the bulls-eye concept to be based on WD/DK, then that is a different argument -- non-sequitor.

Returning to the underlying argument, I repeatedly hear shouts of panic from in-town mobs from alts of quite well-informed level 50 players who find it easier to xp in town. This example exists, although I admit it is a small sample of the group of players..

Another fun bit to this re-forming of the bulls-eyes is that the creation of a low-level advantage to those choosing their hometown in Calimport (since it is quite far from WaterDeep, the CP beach newbie zone becomes a zone fit for levels nearing level 10 and above) While the diversification of the pbase hometown could be an advantage, I do not personally believe this is the way to do it.

A counter to the CP argument could be to decide the WD is quite close to CP because of the ship. For the response to this, please return to my well/gate/wormhole/fold argument above. :)

3) Being far away from your hometown does not make you explore. It makes you learn how to get to that nice XP spot far away from your hometown. That's it. If you even learn how to get there and not depend on other people to form groups and walks you over there - and back. *cough*
</>

Very true, however the likelihood of exploring is increased by the act of travel. Each step you take is one more chance for you to get sidetracked into doing something different. While it may not be a massive increase of chance, it is better than the given alternative, which in your argument is nothing. Status Quo fails to address the situation. Comparitive advantage to distance modifier.

Comparative advantage close to zero in a world of gate/well/fold/wormhole. Other arguments exist for this point, but are the ones I can think of touch too much on other points. A tossup at best, I would think, and a tossup advantage for something which would require coding and debug time does not seem an advantage.

<Idea B> Level 50 Newb.

1) Is you.
</>

Lack of warrants, lack of criterion, lack of alt. Flow out of round.

No argument here. Point may be valid, but no qualifiers or explanation. "lack of alt" remains a non-criterion, however.

<Idea C> Things are too difficult for new players to level and gain experience and equipment.

1) Getting to level 50 is difficult. Getting a full set of zonable eq is difficult. They're supposed to be. This is not the problem.

2) The real issue is that it's boring as hell to be mid-level.
</>

Again, the SQ does not solve either the stated issue (difficulty) nor your restated issue (boring). Also, it does not take into consideration the dynamic lack large numbers of truly new players, creating the additional hardships of leveling/eq'ing without help similar to that shortly after pwipe. No alt given, no criterion for measure, flow out of round.

"No alt given, no criterion for measure, flow out of round."

Anything done to code would help the non-newbies as well as the true newbies. Since these new non-newbies would become overpowered, a balance issue would require the removal of these measures or a downgrade for another aspect. Change in this case causes a return to a new, perhaps worse SQ.

<Idea D> The imms are punishing us for grouping by not giving us more xp by adding people in order to make things easier. Easier means more experience right? There should be more reward for smaller feats. In fact, the smaller the adversity overcome, the MORE rewards there should be!!!

1) *smack*
</>

No alt,crit, given. No argument made. Flow out of round.

Argument in sarcasm. I do hope you can see it -- I will not reiterate (feel free to criticize if unable to see this simple use of sarcasm)

<Idea E> We want to allow more people into our guild.

1) Larger guilds mean fewer guilds, expanded clique isolation, more dramatic politics, and basically back to high school. Thanks a lot.

2) Isn't even football or computer club. Seriously.

3) Why don't we put in guild halls so we can TP each other?

</>

The very nature of guilds is clique in nature. Since guilds were added to the game, the intent is assumed to be to form these cliques. Thus your argument is a turn that larger = better in terms of original intent.

Further, there are those that claim dramatic politics will increase activity not decrease (http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14319). Not only does the argument disregard intent, it also implies guilds are in general bad, then again fails to give alternative to the indicted SQ.

Actually, the reverse could be true. For the case where guilds can grow without bound, there is reduced incentive to form a new guild with its new overhead cost (Cost is x + (a per member cost) I believe. If untrue, correct politely).

This reduced incentive would lead to larger guilds -- quite true. Either the players would be forced into the guild view, or the guild view would become watered-down by the influx of players

It could be argued that this does not occur until the size FAR exceeds 40. It could occur in guild of 6 closely-knit founders and another closely-knit of 6 not as well known to the first six. The two groups will either integrate, which "waters down" the original purpose(s) which could be 2 separate guilds; or remain separate in the same guild (additional cliquism WITHIN a guild). However, there is no financial incentive to separate. Note that this example occurs well within the current limit. Increasing could worsen this.

An alternative COULD be to limit to a number of active members (letting guilds exceed this for cases where members need to be away for months at a time, but where there are assurances that the member will return). However, this would need to be done on a case-by-case basis, which could foster feelings of favorism similar to the sibling/candy situation (WAAH! They have a bigger guild than me! WAAH!). Somehow I predict an ad hominem (perhaps spelled incorrectly) to this last example by those unable to correctly discuss. *shrug*

I personally find my discussion of this final point to be my weakest, unfamiliar with how the interior of a clique functions.

[Lorsalian]

Teflor you seemed to have missed the bullseye hehehe aka the point/bigger picture. The builders have invested lots of time and effort in to making zones. It's a shame that the mid level ones don't get explored or done. What I was suggesting were ideas so those zones just didn't sit there unused. Your shooting down ideas really is just a waste of time, that's easy to do, what I was attempting to do was start some ideas and discussions. Those zones are explored by a hand few of people at most, and certainly not newbies but I would bet people who are just bored. As I pointed out before, that graveyard zone just south of wd....

Additionally, I agree it is a pity. If someone can think of a good way to encourage that can't be abused, I'm all for.

The idea I've seen in another thread of a tiny bonus to xp for a randomized mob in a random zone based on one's level could have possibilities. The only twinking I could see would be a group mover running to the zone, transporting the newbie in, and then proceeding to spellup the newbie. Lather, rinse, repeat :(

If you keep the modifier small enough, one could still have it, since the would-be helper would be better served going to a more traditional xp zone -- I don't see any _large_ detriment to this idea -- yet.

[Salen]

I really like the idea of bonuses for picking the out of the way hometowns, but since only humans/halfelf can pick hometown, it wouldn't be much.

If you could somehow make !humans xp'ing near their real homes worth more, that would be cool.

And, as for 'lack of viable alternative does not indicate a good idea' if you equally indict the SQ and plan, you offer nothing to the discussion unless you add an alternative. In the long run, you wasted BBS and people's time. If Teflor's goal was to support what exists now, he should have done that. He however chose to lay out an argument that 'everything sucks', which advances the solving of the problem a grand total of ZERO. At least with the other plans there is some, even if small, movement forward (comparative advantage).

I just find it humorous that someone lays out a poorly developed attack on everything under the sun, rambles through a diatribe, then tells a debate coach he doesn't understand argumentation. Classic.

I am happy however that others are expanding on the concepts originally ridiculed here.

[teflor the ranger]

Btw, thank you Salen, for being civil - even if a little crude.

Again, Salen, if you only 'bullseye' WD and DK, people will relocate to other hometowns - already made that argument.

By the way, Salen, your analysis of my arguments is elegant, but sadly incomplete. You've missed quite a bit.

Being a debate coach, you could certainly realize that this is a forum with an open ended response format - which means not only that I do not have to lay out a completely developed argument, but that it would actually be a poor idea to do so until some flamingly ignorant person makes flamingly ignorant statements like yours and suggests some flamingly ignorant idea that I have nothing further.

Classic.

Take your beating, Salen. You deserve it for your slander and ignorance.

Now that I've responded to the open stupidity, I will move on to the arguments made and further discussion. OFC, I have to pick through the useless first, so it may take me a while to get to that.

[teflor the ranger]

<Idea B> Level 50 Newb.

1) Is you.

Lack of warrants, lack of criterion, lack of alt. Flow out of round.

It's nicely summed up by calling it 'non-sequitor'. Oh so serious Salen, this is what we in the non-debate world call 'humor'. Humor is a powerful tool, take Comedy Central's "The Daily Show" for example. It's the only liberal television show I can stand to watch.

[Lorsalian]

Take your beating, Salen. You deserve it for your slander and ignorance.

Ad Hominem

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... minem.html

[teflor the ranger]

Very true, however the likelihood of exploring is increased by the act of travel.

Untrue. Exploration only occurs when the intention is to explore. In addition, things like the displacer beast tend to discourage exploration - particularly when not specifically trying to explore.

[teflor the ranger]

Again, the SQ does not solve either the stated issue (difficulty) nor your restated issue (boring).

It is not intended to solve the issue of difficulty. I actually support the difficulty factor (and as thus, am NOT trying to 'solve' it at all, but you missed that) in getting characters to level 50 and properly equipped. I am merely pointing out that the problem with the mud is actually that it's boring on the way to maxing out.

Furthermore, it is beyond the scope of the initial post that was intended to highlight the issues to suggest a solution for the actual indicated problem (boring). One suggestion that could be made is to redesign zones like the muspelheim invasion grid and izans for mid-level groups - a little bit of spam screen fun for lower levels. (why do all the fun zones have to be high level?)

[teflor the ranger]

<Idea D> The imms are punishing us for grouping by not giving us more xp by adding people in order to make things easier. Easier means more experience right? There should be more reward for smaller feats. In fact, the smaller the adversity overcome, the MORE rewards there should be!!!

1) *smack*
</>

No alt,crit, given. No argument made. Flow out of round.

I stand by my response for Idea D. If you don't like it then *smack*.

[Salen]

Btw, thank you Salen, for being civil - even if a little crude.

Obviously it's a skill lost on some.

[teflor the ranger]

By the way, one 'alternative' suggestion for Idea 5 would be to massively compound the clique effect until the downsides are minimalized.

Essentially encourage the building of many, many small cliques.

Guild sizes should be greatly restricted. say, 20, 24 members - perhaps even smaller.

[kiryan]

I didn't learn anything from exping except possibly how to walk to a couple exp zones.

i learned everything when someone finally befriended sok and told him all the secret shiz which I learned about from him and went out and tried to twink the shiz.

you don't become a !noob by exploring, you become a !noob when someone teaches you. count the # of things you figured out yourself, i doubt you'll pass one hand.

[Thilindel]

Kiryan nailed it that so hard that half the ladies on the block just had an orgasm! I learned virtually everything from Lilithelle. She thrives in chaos. I seem to only typo more often in it :P

[teflor the ranger]

Teflor you seemed to have missed the bullseye hehehe aka the point/bigger picture. The builders have invested lots of time and effort in to making zones. It's a shame that the mid level ones don't get explored or done.

Deltin, you've missed the bigger picture. Mid-level zones are a snore, and in no way match the chaos and enjoyment of the massive battles, player-triggered events, and planning that higher-end zones feature - all of which could be accessible to mid-level players by simply tuning the mob groups / levels and what have you.

[Deltin]

Deltin, you've missed the bigger picture. Mid-level zones are a snore, and in no way match the chaos and enjoyment of the massive battles, player-triggered events, and planning that higher-end zones feature - all of which could be accessible to mid-level players by simply tuning the mob groups / levels and what have you.

I appologize for any confusion, I thought everyone was up to speed on the issues and what topics were trying to be addressed. On the thread that was deleted, Gormal had posted something about not seeing level 30 somethings zone and how basically any one under level 45 give or take is only good for doing exp ( the second part was not said by Gormal but rather taken and condensed from various opinions.) The general theme was that 30 somethings needed something to do besides exp. I was attempting to toss out some ideas on how these concerns could be fixed. I never claimed what I proposed was a complete or polished idea, in fact I stated the opposite. As you have said the midlevel zones are boring, and that's a shame due to the time and effort someone took to make it.

[selerial]

Teflor you seemed to have missed the bullseye hehehe aka the point/bigger picture. The builders have invested lots of time and effort in to making zones. It's a shame that the mid level ones don't get explored or done.

Deltin, you've missed the bigger picture. Mid-level zones are a snore, and in no way match the chaos and enjoyment of the massive battles, player-triggered events, and planning that higher-end zones feature - all of which could be accessible to mid-level players by simply tuning the mob groups / levels and what have you.

Let's see, I can list a logical progression of zones that I find fun and that could probably get you from 1-40ish over a liesurely period of time.

Caveat: I'm a grey elf, so I think like a grey elf and my starting zone is a grey elf zone.

Elder forest is a fun zone, a decent amount of quests, pretty much a full suit of equipment loads in there. You might need to boost levels a little in Kobold Village first and also hit the taskmasters/mine leaders on the other end to reach 20, but most of your starting life can be in EF. If you're not of the long eared persuasion, you can replace KV and EF with Black Griffon Road and Gnolls. Anyways, once you reach 20 it's off to the mainland....

Where you visit the Cursed Graveyard, south of WD. Again, a fun zone, decent xp, a little bit questy. Zombies are somewhat popular so your milage may vary as to how fast you level here, but it's going to be decently peppy. The mage earring is probably the best piece of eq, and I actually wore one on Selerial for a long time. There's a hard level cap of 35 on this zone, so now you'll need to move on to the next area...

Far to the south, A'quarthus Velg'larn. I can't really vouch for the xp in this zone, but it's got a decent population of mobs, I have to assume you'll be able to get levels there. I really like this zone a lot, and I think that it's unfortunate that it's essentially twinkable by a level 50, as long as they can recruit someone to grab the loot. If the cave itself had a level blocking room out front I think it would be quite a bit more interesting. Once again there are quests in the zone, although they're slightly broader in scope for required items, and otherwise quite different from the first two zones. This zone is AC heaven, but it's not very good for mages since it's mostly heavy plate equipment. As an alternative you could look in to Trollbark, which fits the general description of the rest of the zones (questy and decent xping).

Finally, if you're a class capable of soloing it, or else if you have a balanced group of friends, you can probably finish off your xping all the way to 50 on the Airship. Once again, you're in a zone full of quests, and if you're a mage you'll want to try to work on the appropriate staff. Combat types can look forward to the magebanes, though from what I've heard they are ultimately somewhat underpowered in their anti-mage capabilities. The mechanism by which this zone does quests is fairly unique, and it'll have you working for a while, as well as exploring the rest of the world for certain quest components.

Of course, if you get your kicks off of text scrolling by at 3000 words per minute, as Teflor seems to do, then my guide isn't going to be useful for you. But I think it is an interesting excersize to try to point out that not everything under 50 has to be boring.

[teflor the ranger]

Trollbark is a fun zone. Not really for mid-levels so much.

[Thilindel]

Even very skilled lvl 50s get whacked in TB from what I've seen..