Fix Dragons

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Kegor
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Fix Dragons

Postby Kegor » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:12 am

They are broken still. The concept of adjusting tactics when your group takes a major hit and loses 1-4 people every round or two just does not compute. Lower the number of special attacks to 1 per round including breath, as it is written in monster manual and give them a hp boost. There are just too many zones, quests, and rares etc that revolve around dragons to make them as ridiculous as you have. Seriously, please. :wink:

* Zoom
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Postby Marrus » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:24 am

Not to imply by any stretch that dragons are done or 'balanced', but losing people at the rate you give is exaggerated. Depending on the number of dragons in room and the levels involved combined with skill of group, deaths can now be held to a minimum or even prevented. The procs just make things less predictable is all. I think the issue is how much unpredictability is good or acceptable?

I'm of the opinion that dragons aren't too far off from being about 'right'.
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Postby Gura » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:13 am

the problem is that dragons should be as hard as they are or harder...just alot less common. not every final fight should have a dragon.
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Postby Lohrandelarien » Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:32 am

I agree with Gura here,

Dragons are fine right now, being a goddamn bitch to kill.
Thats not the problem really,

But it becomes a problem when dragons are part of all major quests, all major zones. Every player runs around with dragonscale eq, its gone to the point of being kinda silly I think.

Dragons are supposed to be _REALLY_ rare in a fantasy world, right now they're more common than anything.

I got no solution to this problem.. really, Toril is to wrapped up in dragons - changes can be hard to make?
...

So, please downgrade back dragons a tad, so the game can be ENJOYABLE again, until dragons are either made more rare or
worth killing. (Magma is probably one of the hardest zones in game now with dragons?).

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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:05 pm

But you do have to admit, there are whopping scads of dragons in the Faerun books. Almost every story I've read tosses a dragon in somewhere. There's even a cult dedicated to the dragons of the world.
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Postby Salen » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:30 pm

Besides, maybe having the mud come to a grinding halt was Shev's plan.
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:25 pm

8)

I think you should change Toril over to being Dragonlance, then it'll make sense.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:54 pm

Dragons make player "fall down" so that there now is more focus on bringing melee.

It seems as-if dragons that are paralyzed proc area etc when you cast spells on them, but not if you melee them.

To me it seems that the more that are targeting a dragon, the more the dragon does. This sort of resemble the warriors riposte ability. I'm not 100% certain on thisone.

Dragons in a room that noone fight seem almost harmless. The almost don't proc etc.

---------- If the above is true then I suggest. --------
remove the events that trigger procs. Give the dragon the strengths they should have, and not all those things that trigger on how many that are fighting it.

This will balance melee and casters, and not make us players use tactics where we outright avoid the dragonfight itself (ie. powerfull mobs with dragonpets).
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Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:42 pm

i've been saying for several years that the # and distribution of dragons in Toril is retarded.

side note, make dragons !para. this is one of the stupidest things I've seen lately. paralyzing a 55+ dragon... *boggle*
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby rylan » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:31 pm

What do you mean kiryan? Thats the tactic! It all comes down to 1 spell. If para lands, players win. If not they get bitchslapped.
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:43 am

8)

Why would a dragon be immune to paralyzation? It's a living creature, albeit a little more robust. It's frankly stupid that dragons are immune to poison.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:43 pm

that would have to be one hella big dose of poison distributed over several hundred tons of body.

and ok i agree, dragons shouldn't be immune to para, but no player should be godly enough to para a real dragon. make it a 1 in 100 to actually work on a successful cast.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:07 am

8)

I don't know where this dragons as end-all-be-all of creatures mentality came about, but in Faerun, there are things much more dangerous than dragons.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:51 am

maybe less so in faerun than in other worlds, but dragons are still quite dangerous and rather rare according to what i read in source books and novels.

elminster, the witch queen, few others can whup up dragons, but i dare to say that no player is or should be considered to be in the same power bracket.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:52 pm

kiryan wrote:that would have to be one hella big dose of poison distributed over several hundred tons of body.

and ok i agree, dragons shouldn't be immune to para, but no player should be godly enough to para a real dragon. make it a 1 in 100 to actually work on a successful cast.


Its not about the amount of poison, merely where it is injected! Not to mention, making the assumption that paralysis poisons aren't magic in nature, but rather a natural herb or compound, technically paralysis = death.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:58 pm

anything can be justified with magic so lets try to be somewhat intelligent about this.

im suggesting that no straight level 50 player should be able to effect magic/poison powerful enough to incapacitate a dragon after 10 minutes of casual spell memorization.
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Postby Corth » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:12 am

kiryan wrote:im suggesting that no straight level 50 player should be able to effect magic/poison powerful enough to incapacitate a dragon


What about a gay level 50 player?
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Postby Lahgen » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:33 am

Well, other than the fact that Elminster is one of Mystra's chosen, I do think a player should be able to become as powerful as he, so long as they do as much as he has did (he has lived for centuries).
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'

Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:37 pm

I'm with Kiryan on this one. Not only is it silly to think one little application of poison is going to have that much of an effect on a such a huge creature, you also have to take into account the magical properties of dragon blood, which varies with dragon type... the blood of most dragon types being caustic enough to destroy the effects of any poison applied. That's the RP line... the game line goes something like "There's no way in hell that I think a rogue should be able to para a dragon, because that's way too powerful."
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

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Postby Yayaril » Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:17 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I'm with Kiryan on this one. Not only is it silly to think one little application of poison is going to have that much of an effect on a such a huge creature, you also have to take into account the magical properties of dragon blood, which varies with dragon type... the blood of most dragon types being caustic enough to destroy the effects of any poison applied. That's the RP line... the game line goes something like "There's no way in hell that I think a rogue should be able to para a dragon, because that's way too powerful."


There's no way one tiny millileter of venom from a cone shell mollusk could paralyze a man within minutes and easily lead to death within an hour.

In DnD, dragons can be poisoned and paralyzed. Heck, in DnD dragons can be wrestled to the ground and forced to tell where their hoard is after being shot by an empowered ray of enfeeblement. Dragons are not gods. They are powerful, but so are characters. According to the monster manual, one old red dragon is an even match for a character who has not gone epic (I.E. level 50 in terms of toril). A very old dragon would be a match for two level 50's. Ancient, 3 level 50's. Wyrm, 4 level 50's. Great wyrm, 6 level 50's.

The rules give no properties to dragon blood making them immune or even more resilient to poison, although their sheer constitution makes them more resistant to poisons, but no more so than the sheer constitution of any other hardy creature.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:35 pm

I thought we'd already determined this isn't D&D.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby Vaprak » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:12 pm

I'd most certainly rather fight a dragon than a vorpal bunny rabbit. They have vicious fangs, even if they are cute.
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Postby Lahgen » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:53 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I thought we'd already determined this isn't D&D.


And?
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:53 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I thought we'd already determined this isn't D&D.


Last I checked, Faerun IS DnD.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed May 18, 2005 5:53 am

Yayaril wrote:8)

I don't know where this dragons as end-all-be-all of creatures mentality came about, but in Faerun, there are things much more dangerous than dragons.


The irony of this post is that I'm fairly certain it came out before beholders started sporting their new and improved ruin ray.
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Re: Fix Dragons

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed May 18, 2005 6:35 am

Jaznolg wrote:They are broken still. The concept of adjusting tactics when your group takes a major hit and loses 1-4 people every round or two just does not compute.


Actually, the way people fight the new dragons is what does not compute.

We do it just about the dumbest way possible.

The most effective capability dragons have is in area damage.

Take away that advantage, and you've got yourself some scales.

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