Suggestion to help new players

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Stamm
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Suggestion to help new players

Postby Stamm » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:21 pm

I'll try and be as short and sweet as I can.

Right now new players don't find groups.

There aren't enough new players.

They can't get groups so they don't play.

While they _CAN_ solo XP, it's not a lot of fun, and the spirit of the game is a team effort.

There are a lot of existing players leveling up new alts. Those alts come out wearing a spanky set of AC/hitroll/dam/hps etc gear.

It's not in their interests to group with players that are not decked out. Not out of nastiness or selfishness, it requires a considerable sacrifice in the way of xp to take along a newbie.

So can I suggest that the game is 'kludged' so that up to level 30, any player gains exactly the same amount of kill xp in a group of 2 as they do in a group of 1.

In order words just have it so that there's 1 less person in the group as far as xp split is concerned.

I.e.

1 person - same xp as 1 person making the kill.
2 people - same xp as 1 person making the kill.
3 people - same xp as 2 people making the kill.
4 people - same xp as 3 people making the kill.

The effects of this will hopefully be that low level players have much more reason to group. That high level player alts will still find reason to group with new players.

The bad side -

It's a kludge, plain and simple. It's not a nice way to fix things.

At level 30 things go wrong again.

Is level 30 the right level for it to switch back?

The rebuttal -

Genuinely new players are finding it _really_ tough. It is a difficult game - and so it should be - but with nobody to group with it becomes much more difficult.

If we make it easier to get to 30 then do we really lose much? I don't think so.

At level 30 the players class starts to become significant. Clerics can heal, warriors can start to rescue and bash, rogues can circle, druids and shammers can heal etc, mages can nuke nicer and stone. Up to that level anyone with -100 ac can do xp with no difficulty.

Please try and be constructive and stick to the points.

I know there are other issues about lack of players, help for newbies, etc etc. But please try not to go off on tangents. Cheers!
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Postby Lilithelle » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:37 pm

There have been other suggestions on this line, if the cut off point is the issue why not make it no exp loss for an extra player at 20, normal for 40 and a sliding scale inbetween? So there would be no set level where people would stop grouping. Could make exp a bit harder to compensate, with no exp division for an extra person or maybe even extra people? It would provide incentive to group, you could kill faster. Certainly couldn't hurt, though I suspect we might get people just grouping their lowbies with their guildmates, might also want to put on a level difference factor. So exp is reduced grouping someone less than 30th level if they're grouped with someone much higher level so its not just used as a tool for power leveling. I definitely think this would help encourage some people to group with more new folks.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:52 pm

Anything that helps the early/mid lvls become more interested and feel helpful would be a good thing to me. New players always say 'I can't wait for x lvl' so...
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Postby Azenilsee » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:08 am

I thoroughly agree. Plus the game really begins when you hit 50 anyways, I would say the majority of the things you learn would be when zoning.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:10 pm

I like the idea, but should be for much bigger groups.

4+ player groups should be rewarded.

If you begin to reward groups with 2 then guildmembers, or the shaman and his spirit cow will team up in no time.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:49 am

More XP for less effort?

Of course people would want that.

But why stop at that?

Why not.. more EQ for less effort?

More platinum for less effort?

More quests for less effort!?

Hey, why not just make everything easier by reducing all mob hps by half?

OMG we could make it so we could just CHOSE our stats in character generation.

The we could let evils group with goodies, ignore alignment for things like holy word/unholy word, let evil drow clerics resurrect good human paladins, and make dragons die whenever anyone says 'look buddy, I just don't feel like fighting you, hand over your horde.'

Then we could make the amount of eq load in a zone vary dependant on how many people you bring to the zone!


Then we could upgrade rangers!




Just a few suggestions to help with your ez-fication of the mud. These suggestions will REALLY help make it eaiser for the newbies.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:50 am

Or we could all be arrogant bastards playing on a MUD that will slowly die as the good ol' boys get bored and leave.

Y'know.

Whichever.
- Ragorn
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Postby Zolav » Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:23 am

I think this is a fantastic idea. It would sure make a newbies life easier as well as great way to create some friendships.


Zolav
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Postby Raspor » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:32 am

Yes I have to agree, make the mud easier than it already is
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:15 am

Call it for what it is. It's not something that's going to help new players.

All it's going to do is let you level your alt faster.

If you really love your noobs, spend time with them.

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16347
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Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:11 am

Funny thing is, if the lower end game is made easier, won't that up the rate of the lvl 50 noobs we have now? HIGH level goodies get lost running to DS, thats SAD!

What is the avergae ptime to lvl 50 now even for *real noobs*? 5 Pdays? Who remembers when it was MUCH higher and we enjoyed the game more? When your average player has multiple level 50 characters, it is much harder to find your *true noob*. Hell eben the true noobs are outfitted to the teeth! Older players find em and hand out what used to be good eq, is now midbie gear.

A VERY few players have made level 50 lately and been SOOO proud, Lilira and Nurpy come right to mnd. They were SOOOO proud of themselves! For the majority, it is .. "O, another 50 .. go me"

While I am all for attracting newer players, isnt it the quality of players we wantand need to recruit? The people who want to take the TIME necesary to develop a character, to grow into it, to learn it.

Where it USED to be the exp groups that taught you the mud, now you take NO-skilled lvl 50 warrior, hitter, mage, priest to a zone. Seems like we want it tailored for the older folks , the ones with mulitple alts, to lvl even easier. The little guys STILL suffer, cause even if you change group xp, the newer guys STILL wont get groups, that is a KEY complaint I personally hear from newer players, that grouping is impossible with player n's decked out noob, he'd rather solo than anything.

I'd say the answer may be level restricted eq, maybe even skill-restricted? Sure I am lvl 50, but my skills suck so my khanjari wont proc? I'm lvl 15 so I cant even USE my daggers, etc...

I don't think its smart to make what we have EASIER, I think we need to work at what we have, hone and refine it.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:17 am

I don't think it would make the exp easier for a brand new player, it would just make it easier to find a group and thus be more fun. It might make it easier to level a little mage in a team with a decked ranger.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:07 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16347
(now past 300 confirmed levels)

The arrogance is yours.


Most ignorant answer on the forums.
- Ragorn
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:37 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:and make dragons die whenever anyone says 'look buddy, I just don't feel like fighting you, hand over your horde.'


I use this tactic rather frequently, and I just want there to be no misunderstandings between gentlemen and thieves... I don't want your horde. The cost of feeding and parasite removal alone would put a serious crimp in my entertainment expenses. I'll just take the stuff covered in solid gold, and you can keep the stuff covered in fleas.
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Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:00 pm

Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16347
(now past 300 confirmed levels)

The arrogance is yours.


Most ignorant answer on the forums.


I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:36 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.
- Ragorn
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:44 pm

Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.


It's your ignorance, not mine.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:57 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.


It's your ignorance, not mine.


That's your arrogance talking.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:21 pm

Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.


It's your ignorance, not mine.


That's your arrogance talking.


No, that's your arrogance right there.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:27 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.


It's your ignorance, not mine.


That's your arrogance talking.


No, that's your arrogance right there.


That's your inability to come up with new adjectives.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Nekelet » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:41 pm

Please try and be constructive and stick to the points.


Go clutter up general discussion w/ yer pi$$ing contests..
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:59 pm

Maybe you guys should take this "challenge" out to the playground where it belongs?
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:04 pm

OMG, Rags... I just started laughing my ass off when the light just clicked on ... I had this funny visual of Shrek and Donkey when they're riding in the onion carriage on the road to Far Far Away...
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:40 pm

Ok, but I get to be Shrek.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:48 pm

Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.


It's your ignorance, not mine.


That's your arrogance talking.


No, that's your arrogance right there.


That's your inability to come up with new adjectives.


Actually, Rag, it's because I don't start with the insults.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:30 pm

This channel sucks Butthead. Change it!
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Postby Zolav » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:08 am

Could someone remove the fodder posts so we can keep on topic? I thought the suggestions were making progress..

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Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:24 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.


It's your ignorance, not mine.


That's your arrogance talking.


No, that's your arrogance right there.


That's your inability to come up with new adjectives.


Actually, Rag, it's because I don't start with the insults.


What insults? I'm simply making quality posts.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:08 am

Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:I challenge you Ragorn. What's so ignorant about it?

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about - ever.


Your ignorance continues.


It's your ignorance, not mine.


That's your arrogance talking.


No, that's your arrogance right there.


That's your inability to come up with new adjectives.


Actually, Rag, it's because I don't start with the insults.


What insults? I'm simply making quality posts.


But face it Rags, you are no where near as awesome as I am.
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:38 am

Zolav wrote:Could someone remove the fodder posts so we can keep on topic? I thought the suggestions were making progress..

Zolav


2nd. The thread WAS productive.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:49 am

We stole the thread, that's true.

Anyway, this xp scheme will do nothing to benefit new players.

Really, just following through on player guides, assisting them actively (recruiting helpers), and eliminating useless classes (so they don't roll useless characters) will go a long way to assist new players.

By giving XP bonuses to groups (there is no penalty for grouping), you will only assist those who already are established players. Particularly because the all the advantages would be more accessible to them.

Furthermore, this suggestion does nothing to assist with the fundamental problems that new players face on this mud.

It won't bring more new players for them to group with online, and it won't convince anyone to take any more new players with them.

It's a nice thought, but in the end it'll only go to help level alts of players with multiple characters.
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Postby Mitharx » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:03 am

teflor the ranger wrote:We stole the thread, that's true.

Anyway, this xp scheme will do nothing to benefit new players.

Really, just following through on player guides, assisting them actively (recruiting helpers), and eliminating useless classes (so they don't roll useless characters) will go a long way to assist new players.

By giving XP bonuses to groups (there is no penalty for grouping), you will only assist those who already are established players. Particularly because the all the advantages would be more accessible to them.

Furthermore, this suggestion does nothing to assist with the fundamental problems that new players face on this mud.

It won't bring more new players for them to group with online, and it won't convince anyone to take any more new players with them.

It's a nice thought, but in the end it'll only go to help level alts of players with multiple characters.


While I agree that actively assisting newer players is a good idea, I'm not sure on what basis you believe this will only help older players. I'm playing a newer character and I avoided grouping at lower levels because I wanted to keep up with a friend who had a warrior type. I avoided grouping because mage tables are tougher and I could do better on my own. There were quite a few times when I felt kinda bad about not grouping with those other players, but I didn't want to cut into my fun for the sake of thiers. I rationalized by saying I'd help them later and that's fine. Everyone gets what they want out of the game. But it occurs to me that if the xp grouping losses were lost (at least for lower levels), I wouldn't have to worry about that.

There's still sufficient time at mid-levels to group with lowered xp and learn a bit more about the class. And in mid-levels it often becomes more beneficial or necessary to group.

I'm not sure what you mean by useless classes. Invokers are pretty useful, but I remember watching a few of them struggle because they had trouble finding groups. I found the same with clerics. Both classes can do it on their own. Just about any class can with enough time and effort, but it really does make the game less enjoyable.

Now, I have trouble with making the game easier. I think most of us can agree that the game is far easier than when we played. Heck, it was easier when I started Mitharx on soj 3 and it's still even easier, but that doesn't mean fun. It seems that if we can get the newer players to a higher level, get them some starting personal eq, and a chance to get to know people outside of the newbie areas, we'd have a better chance of keeping them.
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Postby Stamm » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:25 am

Teflor. You're a cunt.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:19 pm

Ok, on topic.

This system won't really encourage people to bring along newbies. The increased exp rate will just become the status quo, and groups of 3 and 4 will STILL travel as light as possible to enjoy the increased experience.

If you want to make the game more conducive to new players, without changing the difficulty of the high levels, then (as I've said a zillion times) you need to adjust how the game plays from levels 1-15. Once upon a time, I posted a huge list of suggestions along this vein. Here is a summary:

- Give all mages a spell in first circle that does enough damage to seriously injure a level 1 mob. There is NO REASON newbie Invokers should have to spend 8 minutes pounding away on a robin before it dies.

- Make every mob under level 10 in the entire game !flee. Again, there's no reason a newbie should have to chase a small dog all over the god damn zone to kill it.

- Every hometown should have a shop where newbies can buy nontrivial equipment. Scardale has some great newbie drops, but not everybody stays there.

- Severely reduce the price of identify scrolls. Two plats is a drop in the ocean to you guys. Two plats is like, the entire sum of cash a new player earns before level 15.

Making exp easier doesn't really help new players. It also doesn't really make the game "easier," it just makes getting to 50 FASTER. You still have to kill mobs using the same skills you had before, you just have to kill fewer of them.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:23 pm

Oh and Halk is fat.
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Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Mitharx » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:35 pm

Those are also good ideas.

My main idea was giving people a chance to be in groups. That's always the part I enjoyed most, but there's more than one way to remove the massive boredom that can occur at lower levels without good equipment.
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Postby Stamm » Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:06 pm

Sorry about the outburst up there. I felt Teflor was only trying to troll, not actually contribute to the thread.

First of all, I stand by my earlier statement that the game is too hard for newbies at the moment.

Why?

Because currently there aren't enough newbies.

Short on someone getting more newbies in - that's quite a task - then perhaps something should be done to even things out.

Toril is a group mud. Let's encourage groups.

Sure - we may make the game easier at low levels as an unintended side effect - we can always make it a little bit tougher to xp to compensate.

And Ragorn, thanks for the constructive criticism (excluding my weight, I'm short for my weight, not fat).

I heartily agree with 1 & 2.

Neither of those would take a coder a great deal of time either.

3 is something I've wanted for a long time - self sufficient players have more fun. Equipment bought or earned is worth more than stuff handed to you.

4 Why not give newbies another command like their recall one? If people want to abuse it then let them. They could easily just cheese small amounts of plat some other way.

But the fun of Toril is in grouping. (And soloing wouldn't be fun as a break from grouping if there wasn't any grouping).

So let's see what we can do to get new players into groups at the early levels where they're forming an opinion of the game.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:02 pm

Stamm wrote:Sorry about the outburst up there. I felt Teflor was only trying to troll, not actually contribute to the thread.


Stamm, those last statements were beyond uncivil.

You accuse me of attempting to troll, yet you throw the insults while I have been contributing.

Furthermore, you say nothing of the posters who were trying to antagonize me.

The way you worded this apology is insincere, but I accept.

Everyone gets one. Make sure you never do that again.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:05 pm

Stamm, you learn to ignore teflor after a while. 99% of his posts are looking to catch a response from you, including that one and the one that will respond to this post.
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Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:09 pm

Ragorn wrote:Stamm, you learn to ignore teflor after a while. 99% of his posts are looking to catch a response from you, including that one and the one that will respond to this post.


Hypocrite.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Shiallia
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Postby Shiallia » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:36 pm

Act don't REact.

Almost forgot..nice ooc teflor...was funny:)
Botef
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Postby Botef » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:42 am

I've introduced about 3-4 new players in the last several months. One of them was a returning player who had previously (Soj 3.) only achieve level 13 or so. The other two were complete and total newbs to the idea of a mud, and had never once played one.

All three of them were able to reach level 20 on their own with little assistance from me and NHC...I think the game is easy enough for new players. What I believe really happens is these people reach a point were the grind really starts to show (around 18 or so I've noticed) and lose interest after being turned down time and time again to do things. This was certainly the complaint I got from these friends...Their strive to reach a zoneable level quickly died out when they started to realize how long it would take to reach solo.

Our mid-pbase is low, so many of these new players that make it this far find themselves with nobody to do anything with...Keep in mind it doesn't even have to be xp...for a new player, exploring should be plenty interesting at this level, but exploring is often more fun when your with other people who are also unfamiliar with where your at to do it with. This is why Scardale works so well. New players are together in a large enviorment, that they are all able to explore together...Once they hit twenty they become seperated and it becomes harder to interact and do these things, espcially when one of your buddies dies and is half-way across the map.

Now obviously to those of us who have been around the block, we know that after a certain point XP picks up again and one can burn from 30-40 in a short time span. These newer players however don't see that, and instead see an endless grind of solo or slow xp and lose interest.

Take them on a trip to DS or Pirate Ship and they regain some interest, probably because they are interacting with older players and gain some sense of acceptance as well as being taught things like meming out, etc.

Personally I think the real issue we have is the game is tailored for Low Level players, and High level players with little middle ground for people. The ones who do make it to a zoneable place are usually the new players with a lot of time to devote to playing, which leads to them being 'noticed' and eventually comfortable enough to ask if they can tag along.

Our Pbase problem seems to me to be primarily rooted in the mid-level range...There seems to be a lot of sub-25 characters, but not a lot of midlevel ones. XP isnt the issue, its keeping midlevel players interested long enough to make it to their first zone. A lack of fellow new players to do things other than XP is personally what I believe to be the issue.

Really, after going round and round on this in sooo many different threads I've come to believe that the only plausable way to keep these players is NOT making xp easier, NOT removing group xp sharing, but to be more aware of new players and do more to bring them along, show them the ropes, and help them reach a zoneable level. In all honesty, thats what has always keep me playing. I could have cared less how long it took to get to 50 way back when, so long as I got to interact with older players in a positive way (i.e. not being scolded for not knowing something I have know way of knowing to begin with, but instead being taught and shown tricks in a friendly way).

We have level 50 newbs because few people take the time to teach them anything anymore...
Alabas
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Postby Alabas » Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:44 am

A newbie perspective

I've returned to Sojourn- I mean Toril- after a 10-year break because I remember Sojourn being a REALLY REALLY challenging game. And that's what I've found it to be. But also I find a fairly stagnant player base that (generally speaking) has no recollection of what it's like to be a newbie on this mud. I could draw several quotes from this thread alone to prove my point, but I'll defer specifics until later.

The mud is not too hard for newbs. There are some things that are sorta ridiculous (death penalties, but I don't want to beat that dead horse), but in general the mud is plenty challenging with a few things built in to help real newbies (scardale, NHC). The real problem, is the lack of low-mid groups. The lack of groups exists because low-level alts of higher-level players have great gear and don't need to group in order to get great experience. Putting level restrictions on gear is the only real way to fix the problem, but suggesting that would probably get me lynched:) So um, no, I didn't actually suggest level restrictions on gear. Another idea would be a pwipe, which would certainly remind some level-50s how hard it can be to level up without great gear. But I wouldn't dare suggest that.

A few examples of reality for you guys that have been here for years:
Me: "where can a lvl 25 bard solo"
lvl50D00d: "monastary probably best for you solo"

Okay, at 25 I believe most stuff in monastary conned are you mad? or higher. I was given some decent items through the levels, but certainly not 'decked out' like most lvl 25 alts would be. If you think a real newb with less than lvl 50 gear can solo monastary for effective xp, you need a reality check.

Me: "doh, I left ship before you split coins"
lvl25altof50D00d: "pfft, don't worry about it, it's like 50 p, who cares?"

At the time, my split of 50P would have been roughly 1/2 of my amassed fortune. If 15-20P is insignificant to you, then you need a "what its like to be a newb" reality check.

Me: "crud, I died on the mainland and lost level 20"
50D00d: "so, get someone to well your corpse, then get a rez"

Ok, I did actually get help with this one, but come on guys, how many druids have I already heard complain about "having to well the whole mud" when "someone I don't know asks me to log my alt to well/rez them". AND I DONT BLAME THEM! If you think its easy to track down someone to well your corpse to another continent, and then track down someone else to rez you within 2 hours, WITHOUT being in a guild, or having played with said people for years and years, you need a reality check. Thanks again to those who DID help me in this specific case.

50d00d: "the game really begins when you hit 50"

It does? So I guess I've just been jerking off for the last 11 days of played time? No, the game doesn't begin at 50. The game begins at level 1, and if it's not fun at levels 1-49, I'm sure as heck not going to waste my time getting to 50. Unfortunately the reality is that I'm going to get very few groups until I get to 46+. Currently I'm lucky to find an XP grinding group (which is better than soloing, but certainly not what I came to the MUD to do). I notice there are many, many newbie areas in the 'credits' list. What a shame that all of that great content is unutilized these days. I used to love going through faerie forest and kobold village with a group of 4-10 newbie elves. Yeah, maybe we sucked, but man, that was FUN seeing someone get mobbed by those rats in the narrow rooms heh or seeing someone find their way into the kobold temple.

A VERY few players have made level 50 lately and been SOOO proud, Lilira and Nurpy come right to mnd. They were SOOOO proud of themselves! For the majority, it is .. "O, another 50 .. go me"

Heh, when I hit 50, somebody BETTER buy me a firebreather... And the imms might want to be on-hand to gag my celebration:)

So, to summarize - Don't make xp easier to get. If I hear one more player cheapen my achievements with "it's nothing to get a level 50 on the mud these days", I will, well I don't know what I'll do but it'll be um, drastic. The above examples are not meant as complaints, but hopefully it will jog some memories of things that once mattered.

Glad to see so many current players actually bothered to look in on a thread like this.
sotana
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Postby sotana » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:35 pm

This is a slight hijack but I wanted to reply to Alabas' comments about how hard it can be to find someone to help you get to your corpse when you die as a newbie (in the hope that some newbies are reading this). I don't complain about welling the entire mud, except for those times that the entire mud urgently demanding immediate, emergency well is standing 2 rooms away from me :-P But honestly, one of the things that motivated me to push for lvl 46 and moonwell was the frustration of trying to cr myself without corpse transport so please look me up if you ever need moonwell for that sort of thing. I really truly don't mind and will even waive my usual cookie well toll for you. Granted I might be hard to track down sometimes but if you see me, please do ask. Oh and if I get to cr you from some demon-filled, global tracking, non-teleport area before the well, even better!! Mmmmm...there's nothing quite as fun as a good cr.

Also having just started any sort of mudding last year I completely disagree with those who contend that the game begins at level 50 (but, of course, that would depend on your playing style). There is so much to do besides zoning and I actually enjoyed my climb to level 50 as I learned the ins and outs of my class and mapped, mapped, mapped. I didn't even HEAR the word zoning until my first character was low to mid 40's in level :-P Even now with the eternal boots that refuse to die it seems like I can always find some sort of trouble to stir up and pass my time very enjoyably.

All done hijacking now....I'll get back to the engrossing task of getting myself killed! :-)
Botef
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Postby Botef » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:53 pm

Also, if your concerned about not getting to do anything till Level 46, I suggest rolling a evil race character...We're constantly taking low 40 characters along on excursions, sometimes ever under 40 and often will go out of our ways when possible to help fellow evils out...With a drastically smaller pbase, everyone knows everyone and it can be much easier for a new player to get assistance provided there are some people on. It may seem a bit lonly at first, as there is definatly a lack of low-mid level evils, but we really do our best to take anyone and everyone along, provided you make yourself known...It's very rare you will be turned down for an XP group by evils, even if your in your 20's. I can't remember when the last time was that someone told another evil they couldn't join the group because it was already to big and we'd lose out on XP. About the only time that ever happens is when there isn't a way to get you to us.

Don't let our small numbers discourage you!
Stamm
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Postby Stamm » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:29 pm

Well, since the thread has gone from specifics to a general discussion of what life is like as a newbie... here's my take on how I'd like life to be as a newbie.

Level 1-10. You roll your character, and spend about half an hour working out how to leave your guildhall. By this point you're not looking at the who list, you're just getting your bearings. Because you start near civilisation you do see high level characters, who are pretty powerful looking. You find some little xp to do, squirrels, goblins, the like and you work your way up to level 10. All on your own. You might group once with someone else your level, but only if you happen to bump into them and get talking. If you die, then no cr for you.

Level 11-30. You now know how the mud works, basically. These are the hard slogging levels. The levels where xp is tough, and you're not overwhelmingly powerful. At this point you're working out how the classes interact. Because by level 20 each class type (perhaps not each subclass) is distinct from others. You now know that you need damage, tank, protection/healing to do most things on Toril. By level 25 you're doing all of your xp in groups. During 10-30 you'll pick up basic equipment, and perhaps even some small hps/hitroll/damroll. If you die then you won't get a res, unless you drag your corpse way back to town, and sit on it until a cleric appears and ask them nicely. If you lose your corpse and need a cr, then you might get lucky, but it could take you a long time.

Level 31. By this time you've picked up a few pieces of basic equipment, and you've also got a few half decent items that'll last till you start zoning. Sometimes you'll intentionally kill to obtain equipment, rather than just for xp. You'll do little stuff in groups, sometimes going to collect loose items from various distant mobs around the mud, sometimes a few items from other places. At this point you might or might not get help from high level players. If you do it's a bonus. If you needed a CR you would almost certainly get someone to help you, as soon as they were finished with what they were doing. But again, drag your corpse to town to get a res.

Basically the theme there is that players are self sufficient.

In order for them to be self sufficient (and I mean from high level chars) then they need players their own level to group with. There simply are not those players. So if anyone else has a quick fix, then post it.
Hsoj
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yeah i got tired of reading this...

Postby Hsoj » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:31 pm

I caught botefs bit and otherwise missed whatever was said between stamm calling Tefwus a 'see you next tuesday'.

I'm new, been here about 2 weeks, got a lvl 20 warrior, got invited on some groups, was helped by some high lvls and in general was treated like shit otherwise. I'm from duris, this is nothing new to me.

I made an evil shaman and was helped right away even after my savior got whacked en route to me.

Back on noob plane I assisted a lower lvl squid. WHY?! i could have gotten exp faster the other way (ok maybe not..) but because it's a social environment.

Exp is fine here, a bit hard, but if you seriously got people lvl 50 that can't find DS (wtf is DS btw?) then you've plvl'ed twinks and that's sad.

AND!! FINAL POINT!!

if you know how to quest and how to loot you can gather plat easily enough before lvl 15, whoever said otherwise hasn't been a noob of late.

that is all, carry on with your rants and raves

-Hosj is fat!! ah...
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:04 pm

But why is it sad if it's not valuable in the main part of the game?

You can laugh at a guy who cant' find DS or play his class well when he gets to 50 because he was pleveled or because he did it on his own. That's one of the big problems with experience. You can get to 50 without really learning anything all that valuable. Find a system that works the best, kill, repeat. In the mean time, it's super boring and people may not want to stick around for it.

It's valid to say that you don't want pleveled twinks to reach 50 or to level faster, but then you have to consider that it means some of those people may quit because they get bored. The counter-argument is that the game used to be harder and more people because it was harder. When I was 13, the game was amazing. This seemed like pretty cutting edge stuff and it was a lot of fun. If I started now and didn't find the right people to be with, I might not stay on the mud for very long. In other words, I didn't play because grinding was more of a challenge. Who did?

Yes. It is a social game for many people. That's why we're encouraging groups.
Xebes
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Postby Xebes » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:23 am

I think the main problem with XP can be distilled as "We enjoy hanging out with people and want a social game" compared to that the optimum system for avoiding a long xp grind is incredibly antisocial (grab like 1-2 other people and smite the same stupid thing over and over again).

Personally, I've always felt the effects of trophy should be _hugely_ increased, and the overall nature of xp much easier to get. Net desired result would be that you got very little xp for doing the same zones, and could xp at least sorta decently on just about anything, as long as it was something new. And this would effect soloers even more, because killing something solo affects your trophy much more quickly than in a group.

If you wanted to put an interesting twist on this to make grouping increasingly viable, do something like scaling down the effect of trophy when additional players join the group. So, for example, in order to just spamkill DS for hours on end and actually get anywhere at all, you'd end up taking 7-8 players. Wait, that wouldn't be super duper xp either, because it was split eight ways. But it would be decent at least.

With the average rate of code changes though, this is a complete pipe dream, but it's my pipe dream and I like it.

Xebes

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