Must request more!

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Thilindel
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Must request more!

Postby Thilindel » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:43 pm

Okay, here goes: Shammy get spirit walk for anybody's corpse. What I would like for lich is a self only version. My rationale would be that a lich would be in tune with its host.

Would like to also see lich and prolly necro get locate object and clair. I just don't understand why they don't have such rudimentary spells.

Lastly, unless I'm overseeing something, I don't see why mortals can prot from undead but lich cannot. Maybe a repel hostile undead type spell for the lich would work.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:16 pm

protect undead should give them pfu
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Postby Vigis » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:41 pm

I thought that they had changed it so lich has innate PFU?
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:02 pm

c 'protection from undead' me
You start chanting...

< 767h/756H 120v/120V >
< P: std >
Casting: protection from undead **

< 767h/756H 120v/120V >
< P: std >
Casting: protection from undead *

< 767h/756H 120v/120V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
The target is undead! DUH!

Eilistaee clear this up? *bounce*
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:13 pm

Protect undead provides a measure of pfu. Not to the same level as the pfu spell on a living target, but for all parts not related to mob awareness of the target, the effect is the same.
Eilistraee
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:27 pm

cool, cuz when protect undead wore off it says they love me again, but the pfu spell wouldn't cast so I was confused :) Any chance of the self only corpse walk type spell? *halo* I'm just hoping to pry for clair/locate cuz they seem like basic spells. it's nice to see what your friends are doing :P
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:48 pm

As Eilistraee said, Prot Undead has a PfU side effect. It is however not full strength with regard to the "avoiding aggro's" effect. I know, but cannot post the strength, as I believe it was said in confidence while helping debug the spell.

This drives me nuts. I can protect an entire group from <50th aggro's but I cannot protect myself? "Sorry leader, I'm not gonna PfU except maybe clerics/chanters, cuz I don't want to get whacked while you speedwalk."

The reasoning behind this, as I was told, was to prevent small group cheese. It wasn't really a solo issue. The bottom line was that lich PU's self, walks past a bunch aggros and rest of group folds in.
Well fine. So I'll just PfU the illus or a rogue, and make them walk.

Yea, tho I walk thru the valley in the shadow of undeath, I do fear evil, for these zombies don't recognize me as their master, and they keep kicking my butt.


Can you please revisit the rationale?
Last edited by Nekelet on Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:19 pm

Since we're ranting...
Why am I still 'a red shape?'
(well, 'a very large red shape' according to some) *poke amathiel*
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Postby Mitharx » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:15 am

It was stated long ago and many times that if lichs got spells like locate object and clair, the mud would explode with so much overpowered leetness that the world as we know it would be over.

So, those spells can't be used to over power stuff and you think we should have them. The response will be "Well, I guess you should get every spell that doesn't make you overpowered, like fly" This is, of course, an error in logic because you're not asking for every spell. But whatever, it's a popular argument against. The trick with this would be to qualify why lichs should have those spells beyond just saying convenience and it wouldn't over power them.

Another popular argument is that lichs have a theme. I like to think part of that theme includes being stuck on smoke for hours on end and generally having less of an idea of what's going on in the world in terms of objects and people than all the regular mage types (aka real ultimate power). Doesn't fit in with your version of lichdom? Well, mine either, but it's Toril's version and we have to respect it. Any spells and upgrades we get will be according to godly vision. That's not a knock on the god's. It's a way of bringing into parallel the popular perception of lichs and the toril perception of lichs.

Overall, it's hard to add stuff to the lichs without proving that lichs are gimpy w/out it or it fits in well with the mud's perception of them. It is easier to fix what they already have and I appreciate that. For example, the undead spell added to tenth for lichs was amazingly helpful and appropriate because it maintained at least one good circle of area power (rain just isn't all that).

It's hard to argue any upgrades to lichs because of these reasons. However, you're welcome to try. I got tired of it long ago.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:09 am

Hehe, here's another 'huh' for you. Why do liches even have moves? IMHO, it should be same as innate pfg/waterbreath that you don't use moves. What's the point? They don't get tired. Lastly, WHY can't human liches enter DK? Are drow that ignorant and racist bastards that they can't somehow see thru your host that you were a human in a past life?
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:35 am

< P: std > h lich
LICH

Liches are former necromancers who delve so far into the Dark Arts that
they transcend death and become Undead themselves. Liches do not age, as
they are not alive. They use spells to help extend their unnatural lives and allow
them to continue practicing their Craft.

Lich stats: Only necromancers that attain level 50 can quest to acquire
lichdom. Liches are extremely intelligent but are hideous and
horrid to behold.


< P: sit > mem ice tom
med
You are memorizing ice tomb, which will take about 12 seconds.


(since I'm on a roll) :P Does that seem extremely intelligent to you?

I've always opted to see lich gain innate INT (max_int)..whatever you wanna call it. Not nickel and diming, but the files don't hold true to the statistics
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Postby Lilithelle » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:42 am

I guess before you got re-animated you were embalmed, you know where they pull your brains out your nose with a hook.
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Postby Yasden » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:53 am

You say that assuming he had brains to begin with. :P
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Postby Mitharx » Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:00 am

In good periods, I get 8 second 10th circles. In bad, I get 10 second 10th.

Up the int gear or learn how to make a gnome lich (which I'd be totally for).
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Postby Nekelet » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:19 am

Mitharx wrote:In good periods, I get 8 second 10th circles. In bad, I get 10 second 10th.

Up the int gear or learn how to make a gnome lich (which I'd be totally for).


One word: Baelnorn. *nod me* Grey lich would rock! (hey, would a bael still be able to wear elvenkind? *whistle*)

and re: yer mem times. I so have to get off my ass and finish a 2nd obliv.
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Postby Botef » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:31 pm

Self-Only spirit walk....BIG NO. That should be more than obvious why.

Clair/Locate...Lichs don't need Clair atm, and I sorta like the gambling element to life walking to someone AFK hoping they are somewhere safe.
Locate Object while handy seems like a waste....I'd rather see necros/lichs get a spell to check the number of hours on a corpse long before I'd want these two spells.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:34 pm

How is a self-walk a big no?
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Postby Botef » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:40 pm

Because it totally removes the difficulty in cr'ing, one of the few downsides to having all those extra spells.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:10 pm

like I said, shammy gets the spell and can go to anybody. What I'm talking about is a LICH only spell, not necro. When lich first became an option, there was little choice. Necro's been upped a ton since, but liches have really only seen downgrades. Since lich has a horrible time with travel as it is, let alone trying to walk around stupid towns, I don't see a problem at all with again, self only, host walk or whatever it'd be called. Your argument for clair wouldn't hold for lich, ... well, lich can't relo anyway. I'd like clair and locate just because they're rudimentary spells in the first place. But your idea on identifying time on corpse seems really cool, botef :)
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Postby Botef » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:26 pm

Thilindel wrote:like I said, shammy gets the spell and can go to anybody. What I'm talking about is a LICH only spell, not necro. When lich first became an option, there was little choice. Necro's been upped a ton since, but liches have really only seen downgrades. Since lich has a horrible time with travel as it is, let alone trying to walk around stupid towns, I don't see a problem at all with again, self only, host walk or whatever it'd be called. Your argument for clair wouldn't hold for lich, ... well, lich can't relo anyway. I'd like clair and locate just because they're rudimentary spells in the first place. But your idea on identifying time on corpse seems really cool, botef :)


I understand what your saying, but think about it. Lichs are already one of the better solo'ers, better than necromancers because there damage is more balanced (Not all Undead/Flesh Mob Damage so you can kill shit like golems).

Shamans can solo too, but they don't have an endless supply of pets that can function as a mini group even close to the capacity a lich/necro can.

This would make the consequences of soloing tough mobs nil, because getting back to your corpse would become very very easy. Travel is the only real downside to lichs...
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:41 pm

Well, it's a pretty big pain to swap eq. It's horrific moving around (cuz I don't have speedwalks) The class definitely is fun, as was necro, but I really don't get the locate object/clair spells issue as to why lich doesn't get. Actually I don't see why necro don't have em either. I'd assume they should get clair just to see their enemies and make corpses of them :P (in a game theme). Shammy for spirit walk, hmm, they're just a class I never liked playing. Group leaders typically _need_ a shammy, specially for dragons and such. Lich isn't what I thought of as a prime reason to make a char to live alone and solo stuff. Elementalist still seems the route for living alone or in group.

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