Lich Poll

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.

Would you like to see human lich have option to have..

The chance to have your own lich race with a set memtime, be it good or evil race.
8
38%
The option to once only quest into a fallen gnome
2
10%
... quest as a fallen grey elf
1
5%
...quest as a fallen half-elf
0
No votes
I'd just like to quest and whatever random race listed would be cool.
1
5%
I like being a pathetic human, even though it makes no sense whatsoever...
9
43%
 
Total votes: 21
Thilindel
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Lich Poll

Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:58 am

Am interested in lich player's take on an idea I had earlier but wasn't specific.

It would be described as you have one chance to quest a different host. The chances would be basically for goodrace only because drow are so f'g smart in the first place - there'd really be no need.

Considering the available hosts would be either a half-elf, grey elf, or gnome (since this would be an upgrade only quest) would you...
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Postby Nekelet » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:24 am

I think lich should be a race all their own. over the eons, any mental limitations of the original race should be gone. Given enough time in study, there should be minimal difference between human/drow/snakes.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:56 am

Can this lich race group with both evils and goodies? What would be the impact on Paladins and Rangers in groups? Sorry, Mr./Mrs. Lich cant group ya cause I have a paladin already in group

Sorry, not a lich but this was my first thought.

I understand the frustration on human int, but as is the same with any class... you play it for a reason. You play the drow necro cause when you lich you still have the drow int but now you have the undead vision (am i wrong here?) You play the human necro cause when you lich you have full groupability save the hometown drawback. You play the snake necro for the ...snake innates? Extra hitpoints? +Style? Thats all I can think of :P

Sorry for my input since I'm not a lich :( And really sorry if I am totally off-base.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:07 am

Prior to human groupability, that wasn't a factor. It's not really a bonus seeing how evil pbase is doing anyway ;( Drow always gained undead vision even when humans didn't get groupability with evils.

As far as groupability for straight lich class, which is a great point, I feel rationale should be a paladin could group with anybody as long as it were to serve his purpose if the grouping made the paladin's quest complete. "The ends justifies the means?" Only then would he smite the lich! :P More like die trying, but still heh

Drow get to keep that godly INT, and then gain immunity to dayblind. Actually, this is a good place to point out that it sucks when a mob incendiary clouds. It seems not too many know that it's auto-blind for a lich :( Others who walk around w/o light know what I'm talking about.
Last edited by Thilindel on Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ided » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:12 am

Being that liches are pretty much on par with other human casters, I still have to stay with the fact that for all fairness, lich shouldn't be given special treatment as far as mem times go, nor a quest to inhabit a different race.

I agree with nekelet on the lich race idea, only issue I could see arrising from that is how to differentiate a evil race lich from good race lich (for grouping with other non-human goodie races for instance).

That being said, A little player understanding could be given during zoning situations. Due to the increase in spell slots, we typically do have longer mem times than other human casters. We also tend to cast a couple spells after a fight is done (embalms and or animate for instance) so we don't usually start our mem till others are half way through with theirs.

Hard coding a quest like this is not the right answer in my opinion. Most of the issues with the mem times (in regards to group situations anyways) are better solved by others just being a bit more patient and having a little more understanding of why a lich is lagging behind a bit.

-Ided
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:16 am

Which is why Dalar's suggestion of lich class is good from the start. There's no reason at all that a yuan-ti or especially drow should outmem a human lich. The host being used isn't the force powering the boat :P

Reminds me of a cop. Doesn't matter if the cop is black, white, cuban, etc. He has rules, and regs..a cop is a cop is a cop *shrug* Kinda funny to compare lich to a cop but that's all I can come up with this late!
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Postby Ambar » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:20 am

Thilindel wrote:Which is why Dalar's suggestion of lich class is good from the start. There's no reason at all that a yuan-ti or especially drow should outmem a human lich. The host being used isn't the force powering the boat :P

Reminds me of a cop. Doesn't matter if the cop is black, white, cuban, etc. He has rules, and regs..a cop is a cop is a cop *shrug* Kinda funny to compare lich to a cop but that's all I can come up with this late!


so withyt hat argument, a lvl 50 player int/wis should be the same as needed

hell you complain about human lich .. ever try ogre shaman? :P

What about some casting/mem love in that liches out level other players by 4 levels? What i mean is that a lvl 1 casts at ******* per spell, andmems at like 21 sec per spell, it gets faster by the time the player is 21 .. at lvl 50, a lich mem/cast times should be fast as hell no matter what race they are simply equate their mem/cast times to a lvl 53 or 54?
Last edited by Ambar on Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ided » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:23 am

From a game perspective, it makes a bit of sense that human lich has somekind of a drawback though.

Human lich can group with both evils and goodies (currently at least) Evil raced liches are still limited to the evil pbase.

I guess it's just what you give up for groupability.

-Ided
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Postby Sarell » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:31 am

I think druids should get setbit to at least an angel or deva at least, because they get their power from GOD!

I also think rangers should be downgraded because it is too wierd seeing more threads about one lich's memtimes in the past 3 months than the combined force of rangerdom.

Here's what I get from reading about liches in my DnD book. They are a human, who has used evil magic to preserve their life. If you _shouldn't_ be less intelligent than an elf for no apparent reasoning or game mechanics where does that stop? Must be more intelligent than a dragon? They are just mere mortals.
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Postby Yasden » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:53 pm

I clicked on this thinking Thilindel was taking a jab at Fiona...

Liches *used* to be their own race, when the quest was first put in. However, it was removed due to the complications that are being discussed in this very thread. If they're supposed to have "superior" intelligence, why not just set the code/quest to boost their baseline int by 50%? Problem solved. Bringing up groupability issues with a dwindling pbase, especially those with a negative impact, is not conducive with player retention and enjoyment.

To correct Sarell's interpretation of liches, I will only state that not all necromancy is "evil". That's black necromancy, which is the only kind Toril uses. Were there white necromancy, like the necromancers of Kelemvor use, this wouldn't be the case. Baelnorns are elven (gold & moon mostly) liches, and they are by no means evil. They extended their lives unnaturally to protect whatever part of elven heritage/culture that they deemed important. Myth Drannor is a good example.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:56 pm

somehow it got changed to a human's capacity for memtime? The entire point is a lich isn't human. Who knows what the hell it is. An evil force basically.

For groupability, that is NOT an issue. The groupability was added generically for humans to try to save evils. This wasn't to have an impact on lich at all. I've grouped with evils uh..zero times. All the big evils have big goodie alts anyway.

From what I was looking up online, and who knows if it's AD&D based, I could see that undead are just magically wrapped freaks of evil. It's the magic people are dealing with, not the carcass magically walking around.

When you turn a fern or a lizard into a spectre, out of nowhere they are smart enough to talk. Same thing. That's the logic I was speakin of. It's the powa imbued that gives them abilities. And with what Sarell said, lich is an immortal *shrug* When you quest lichdom, you are told and witness nothing but immortality.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:03 pm

I'd be willing to give up vitaility being castable on lich (to have base lich int set to 150 human [That's 100 elf int]), considering you can't vit an undead pet. I don't know about others. It does strike me as strange for there to be inconsistent rules withing one's own sphere. ..and thanks for the info on those necro uses, yasden :)
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:16 pm

Yasden wrote:I clicked on this thinking Thilindel



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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:34 pm

This isn't a 10 Page Manifesto, just responding to multiple people in one post, and I only got wordy with Nek cuz he likes it ;)

For Nekelet:-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Nekelet wrote:I think lich should be a race all their own. over the eons, any mental limitations of the original race should be gone.

Already achieved. All living casters in this game hit a number of maximum number of spells per class. Lichs exceed this with their 4 additional lich levels. Just compare the total number of memorize-able spells of a level 50 necromancer (a living mage) to a level 50 lich (a undead mage). Other then having different spells at their disposal, a lich can memorize more of them total.

Nekelet wrote: Given enough time in study, there should be minimal difference between human/drow/snakes.

I disagree, but it’s not because of my love of Drow and my need to see them always superior to all other races no matter what. It’s because of something else. Each race is physically different which leads to them to develop different learning speeds or ways of learning, and as such different ways of being better or worse at harnessing magical power. This is basically the reasoning for the initial level limitations per race per class in D&D and AD&D. Eventho the change to an undead state brings many similarities between the races that become so; the change to sentient undead does not change the inherent thinking processes of each individual. In other words, you don't loose your personality just by becoming, or remaining in this case, undead – especially in the case of sentient undead such as lichs.

Mindless undead of each type are all the same mentally – mindless. A skeleton squirrel has as much brainpower as a yuan-ti skeleton. Your suggestion indicates that given enough time even the personality and thought processes of every sentient undead will one day become the same as the other. The complete loss of individuality amongst sentient undead within D&D/AD&D campaign settings has never been represented, but in fact the complete opposite has. As the decades and centuries roll on, their individual personalities remain intact.

Furthermore, with the exception of Constitution in 3rd Edition+ the change to an undead state – no matter the type of undead or the type of race that becomes it- does not change the ability scores of the individual to be exactly the same as other races who have become the same type of undead. Instead the change to an undead state gives bonuses/negatives to their existing scores – modifying them accordingly. This helps to provide diversity among all undead, making each unique.

Note that Sarell should observe:
In the current 3.5 rules, any sentient humanoid race can become a lich. From Kobolds to Ogres, but they are all far from being the same or as powerful in terms of the ability to harness and manipulate the magic.


For Ambar:-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't think you are totally off, just a little dated. A lot of your thinking made a lot more sense when Toril had a larger player base. Nowadays, how much of an advantage is it being able to group with extinct evilraces?

I do agree with you that the casting times of all lich's should be reflected by their additional levels. That makes sense and seems to satisfy the thinking of Nekelet as well, that their undead state increases their mental power even more so. But therein we have a problem that would develop. 50th level lichs would now be 4 levels higher then 50th level necros in terms of casting speed and memorization times. Toril is currently geared towards balancing Necromancers with Lichs. Therefor you can see, if the Lich was always better, they'd never be able to achieve this.

For Yasden:-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
You're idea looks like a solution, but leads to the same ultimate imbalance. Typically when a race becomes a lich, they receive bonuses to certain ability scores - namely Intelligence. If this was done on Toril to the extent that mem times and casting times were changed, we would have the same problem I just mentioned with Ambar. Imbalance between 50 necro and 50 lich.


For Thillindel & All-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If you are going to suggest ways to make Lichs better then Necros (in this case casting speed and memorization times) then what's the trade off? What negatives to the lich - or bonuses to necromancers, do you give to balance out with necromancers?

!balance = !vote
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Postby Drache » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:44 pm

Thilindel wrote:I'd be willing to give up vitaility being castable on lich (to have base lich int set to 150 human [That's 100 elf int]), considering you can't vit an undead pet. I don't know about others. It does strike me as strange for there to be inconsistent rules withing one's own sphere. ..and thanks for the info on those necro uses, yasden :)


It looks answered?
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:05 pm

Drache wrote:
Thilindel wrote:I'd be willing to give up vitaility being castable on lich (to have base lich int set to 150 human [That's 100 elf int]), considering you can't vit an undead pet. I don't know about others. It does strike me as strange for there to be inconsistent rules withing one's own sphere. ..and thanks for the info on those necro uses, yasden :)


It looks answered?


That's not a balance trade off because it creates imbalance with other lich races. What do Drow and Yuan get out of this suggestion? They loose vits so that humans can have their intelligence?

You've gotta be kidding me.

Now are you going to suggest that Drow and Yuan-ti get a +50 bonus to Int as well? That would unbalance us compared to all other mages. More spells that we can cast and mem at insane rates? You'd be giving Drow and Yuan-ti a form of Time-stop that worked on memorization and offensive spells. Not very balancing either.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:19 pm

I see only one possible idea to this whole dilemma, but it doesn't work either.

Human players want to be more powerful as lichs right?

If you mess with mem/cast times you create imblance with Necros.

If you mess with total mem/castable spells (such as saying drow and yuan only get 2-3 additional levels of spells) you still have ultimately the same problem, long mem times for human lich. Sure then the human could cast more, even slower, but would that stop the problem of them always being last to finish mem?

No.

We'd still have the same complaints. Sure humans would be the most powerful total damage spell wise of any lichs, but they'd still be unhappy with mem/cast times.


Even if you made all lich only spells into their own spell type, and gave human lichs a higher cap then drow and yuan-ti (so that their lich spells did more damage then other races but took longer to cast and mem - but kept balance between lich & necro) we'd still be looking at the same problem. The wait.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:22 pm

Llaaldara wrote:If you mess with mem/cast times you create imblance with Necros.


.............................................____,,,---~`\,.............. ...........................................................
................................,,,_.,-~"* . . . . . . . . ."\,.........................................................................
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......................,/ . . . : . :: ::: :: : : :: :::: :::: :: : : : :: ‘-, ............... ............................................
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…………..,-‘’ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-‘’_ ¯’-,\ ; ; ; ; ‘,…………………………………
…………,’ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,,-~’’’’’~-,, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;’-‘;;;’, : :||; ; ; ; ; ‘,……………………………….
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……| ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;¯’’~-,,,_ , , , , , , ‘,;,’,’ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;\……………………….
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Postby Ided » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:40 pm

Llaaldara wrote:
If you are going to suggest ways to make Lichs better then Necros (in this case casting speed and memorization times) then what's the trade off? What negatives to the lich - or bonuses to necromancers, do you give to balance out with necromancers?

!balance = !vote


Don't get me wrong, I think the human lich shouldn't be changed, but in the case of balance, wouldn't lowering lich mem times by increasing int, make liches more on par with a human necro. This would compensate for the extra spells liches typically have to mem due to increased spell slots.

Bonus: extra spell slots
Negitive: longer mem times due to extra spell slots

!change == fair IMHO

Truthfully the only argument towards change I can see being made is in the fact that as a goodie raced necro, I had no choice in the matter of playing human. All other mage classes at least have the choice to play a race that has faster mem times, except for necromancer.

-Ided
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Postby Pril » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:48 pm

I've never understood why necro's should be as powerful as liches. A lich has mastered the art of necromancy and has surpassed it, why wouldn't they be more powerful? Given i haven't liched as my necro yet so i'm not sure how much of a pain the quest is but maybe as an option make the quest harder and make liches more powerful than necro's (unless the quest is already sufficiently hard enough to justify the difference of power)

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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:08 pm

That's a really good point pril. The most puzzling of the necro vs. lich is that necros spells weren't all put in when you could lich, so players like todrael and others were kinda screwed. Being able to relo is pretty damned nice...imho, there shouldn't be balance when it's nec vs. lich. A lich would utterly rape a necro in D&D..somehow turning necros into soulwalk whores didn't really help either :P

If you compare the current lich situation among the races

You have human: Can group with evils but so what? Allowing the humans to group with evilrace was out of trying to help the evil's situation. This is NOT a bonus for being human. When grouped with an evil, you can't group any other goodraces in your group. It's a limit as much as a bonus, if you see it as a bonus at all.

Yuan-Ti. Limited slots, but pretty damned smart. Great AC potential with 49 innate ac naked. As strong as humans, basically - 100 yuan ti str is = to 95 human str if I'm not mistaken. some limited innates are kinda fun as lich.

Drow - drow have everything to gain by liching. immunity to dayblind..wtf? that in itself rules. they are relatively strong. Easier to hit highest strength notch, can hit 49 ac easily, then they get innates as well.

Humans are least desirable for becoming a lich IF you ignore the playerbase. Kinda reminds me of making a halfling mage, cept you are harder to bash at least. Halflings are tards :P Anyway, I know some races are less desirable than others for a particular class. But when there's only one option for goodrace, it doesn't strike me as fair.

This is just me but it seems perfectly fair to allow half-elf to be necro and lich both. They're outcast on both sides..unliked etc. So if I were a half-elf, I'd be sayin 'f* you all, I'm gonna master death and make you my pets!' :P

The LEAST they could do is have same restrictions on ALL lich towns. So human lich should be able to check out DK, etc.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

The least they could do would be nothing.

Ignoring the pbase is about th silliest argument for upgrading human liches I've seen yet. If you wan't to ignore the Pbase, just go make a drow and have your memtime. Humans are the only lich that can group with goods. So it's a pretty important aspect of their being. Not only that, they can group with the evil folk aswell.

Complaining that your memtime is too long bacause you get too many spells is ludicrous. More spells in mem, mean you cast them all during combat, you don't run out so fast. Then you have time to mem after the battle anyhow. It's not liches in my experience that are left behind in a group on mems.

It is perfectly fair that some races are not as good at classes as other races. It is not equal, but it is fair. It is down right boring to want every character to be as good as every other character. Being able to play is far more important and some of the best warriors in history have said, 'hey I might make a warrior based on a dodgy class', then through player skills, and thought about different tactics have becom some of the best wariors there are. I know your arguing that lich is a new race once they become one, I think you probably know more about necros than you are letting on and are just fishing for a completely unwarranted upgrade to take over the world. Evil liches :P

In summary, I think liches are better than necromancers (still don't think necro's need life walk - see argument on flat and boring), and don't need an upgrade.
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Postby Yasden » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 pm

Adding another 50 int to drow and yuan-ti wouldn't do that much. Stats notch on a partially exponential curve. However, the benefits you get from the stat notching are logarithmic. Eventually you hit a point (pretty early on) where adding more doesn't benefit a whole lot.

For example, I took my human druid's wisdom up to 136 (4th notch past 100), and the benefit was very little...we're talking like a net gain of 2 seconds for 4 8th circle spells.

It is a very small boost once you hit past 125, imo. I'll not drag Sservis into this conversation, since he's done extensive testing on this kind of thing. However, I'm sure he'd agree with me that boosting all the available lich races' intelligence by 50% would give them a very minimal boost, that boost being most optimal for humans.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:02 pm

I vote that human necro and lich are removed from game. I don't think they belong on the good side.

Those humans that are already made can take the quest that turns them into gnomes. (as described in the poll).

I have a level 9 drow necro. He isn't very powerful.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:21 pm

On one side, I see humans, the ppl who kill themselves in the world we live in now - then I see necro as evil race only, but when you lich, you turn into the lich class, but as a fallen gnome or whatever else would be an option. Either way that does make sense. Humans are plenty capable of being the scummiest of all. Just look at all the pedofiles in the world!
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:52 pm

Thilindel wrote:You have human: Can group with evils but so what? Allowing the humans to group with evilrace was out of trying to help the evil's situation. This is NOT a bonus for being human. When grouped with an evil, you can't group any other goodraces in your group. It's a limit as much as a bonus, if you see it as a bonus at all.



Humans who lich get the benefit of having perfect night vision, the equal oppossite to Drow getting day vision.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:34 pm

humans aren't any different than any other goodrace. Necro gets infra. Going from absolutely blind to perfect dayvision..that's a whole different story.

Now that orcs can be shaman there is hardly a reason to play an ogre shammy. With this, there are options. Sure ogre gets more hps etc, but as evilrace, there are avenues you can try. Goodrace is human only. At least throw some half-elf action in there for an option to toss it up a bit. Half-elves are totally screwed on toril for options in classes. Half-elves are half human, so why the good only options basically. Well, tree-hugging rangers and druids still isn't an an avenue to vent from being treated with prejudice. Now toying with undead . . ah, there's some resentment! :P
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Postby Ambar » Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:41 am

so you want human hitpoints and elven agility/intelligence

i think the elven part of the hal-elf would not allow the necromancy class at all. much like the argument that elves cannot be illusionists, just doesnt follow their *nature*

I think the only bonus lich needs is a lessened mem/cast time that is a GIVEN for the extra levels they get. Each new leve should make mem times go down marginally. Over all it would mean (like yasdork says) a few seconds at MAX off the time. Raising their base int seems like a big no since they dont get a new body/brain at lichdom, they just gain immortality thru deeper study, and they gain new skills worthy of a new class.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:32 am

half-elf only has a mere 62 ac naked when highest agi notch. Grey elves are 2 notches higher with 49 ac naked. half-elf also don't get extra innate attack for some stupid reason, their dex maxxes at 6 hitroll :(
Either way, lich/necro virtually don't tank but I could care less if they kept the human agility.
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm

I just wanted to add that I like lichs as they are. Managing all the spells and abilities we have compared to other races is part of the fun. Also, working to really balance and max out eq to make up for the abilities that aren't the strongest is good. Honestly, I'd hate to see Azerost with better mem time.

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