So, I'm sure this has been said before, and I'm sure the staff won't like it, but I'm going to put it out there again.
In the current state of the world, gaming, mudding, and specifically Toril, there simply is no longer a large enough pbase to support the split race racewars. I don't think it's been any question that the evil pbase has been dying because we are only able to support one side these days.
Honestly, I suspect with the idea of the race wars, this was the inevitable result of gaming. The two sides will start off semi-balanced, and over time, one was bound to succeed and one to fail. The logical outcome of this situation is that nobody will play one side, and all characters will end up on another.
The further re-inforcement of this is, unfortunately, with no benefits given to the dead side, it will never revive. The surviving side will just continue to grow, and in that growth will insure that the other side will never recover from new playerbase.
That said, my suggestion is simple. Eliminate the code restrictions on the race wars. Possibly even start a RPQ campaign up with some diplomacy between the races. Hometowns, zones NPCs, etc will still remain divided. We won't have psionicists walking through Waterdeep.
As far as grouping, zoning, etc, leave it up to the players to decide who they will and won't group with. Every MUD I have ever been a member of has befallen this same fate, though usually in the sphere of clans. Given enough years, the clans topple all to a single clan, and all the others remain mostly dormant, except for a few old die hards just having fun.
Can the evil pbase be saved? Sure, if for some reason a large number of experienced players or a huge influx of new playerbase decides to come in and start up as evils, regardless of all the obvious benefits of the good side.
Will this happen? I doubt it. I think it really is just time to bring Toril around to the reality of the world and the pbase that exists, and make those of us who got caught on the crumble of the evil empire a chance to have fun again, without starting anew in the goodie side and further destroying the evil base.
The move to allow neutral human grouping was a decent step, but unfortunately too small a step, and in being too small further crumbled the evil base. If this line is to be continued, it should probably be made so that neutral aligns of any race can group with good/neutral/evil, and good/evil aligns of any race are restricted to neutral and their associated alignment.
It's a drastic move, and I'm sure a lot of people will hate it (quite possibly the evils more than the goodies, even), including the staff. But when something is dying, you have to take some chances.
Oh, and for the sake of us all, staff members, stop being good aligned! It's a real blow to new evils to do a who evil or who good and see that all the staff are good too!
End the Race Wars. (or: Jumpstarting the Evils)
End the Race Wars. (or: Jumpstarting the Evils)
Last edited by Izisayyin on Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I like your idea, but drop the grouping restrictions totally. If people want to RP, then they can form their own grouping restrictions for the session.
Perhaps it can be a part of the ongoing RP work the RP Sphere is doing. If the players finish the campaign, then grouping restricts will be removed.
As an aside - it would be nice to see your RP points displayed in score.
Perhaps it can be a part of the ongoing RP work the RP Sphere is doing. If the players finish the campaign, then grouping restricts will be removed.
As an aside - it would be nice to see your RP points displayed in score.
Evils were built on them not being allowed to group with goods, and then changed to accomodate not having many players. Allowing goods and evils to group would throw group power balance out the window and rend many characters second rate or useless in terms of zoning power.
More players is what we need, not major changes to balance. If anything, major changes to balance are one of the factors that culled many of the long term players we already had in my opinion.
More players is what we need, not major changes to balance. If anything, major changes to balance are one of the factors that culled many of the long term players we already had in my opinion.
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
Hsoj wrote:what characters would it rend useless in zones or make second rate? Psi's >> Druids is all i can think of
naw, i'm guessing most people would take the druid ... psi arent as oober here as duris .. unless the leader'd drag a bunch of ultra around
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."
-Italian Proverb
-Italian Proverb
Hsoj wrote:what characters would it rend useless in zones or make second rate? Psi's >> Druids is all i can think of
Even your example of psi's >> druids is, imho, faulty. I don't see a psi area blinding or healing/vitting. I don't see many classes becoming useless if group restrictions no longer existed. We already pretty much unanimously agree that certain classes are already considered more useful than others, but that in no way means that some classes would become useless or would no longer be played. Look at rangers (not trying to make a joke). Each class has its own niche and truly is useful in some situations, if not all.
I don't see losing group restrictions as far as good/evilrace goes as being such a horrible thing that would kill the mud. Rather, it may be a good opportunity for some goodies to take the chance of leveling an evilrace character and enjoying that character for all its good points and bad. Frankly, I see it as giving us the opportunity to see more diversity in groups, group leaders would have a more diverse arsenal at their disposal (that is not to say a "better" arsenal, as the group limit is still 15, just a more diverse one--it's all about balance, after all)--goodrace leaders would learn how to best use a psi in battle, would learn the intricacies of whether a troll warrior was better than a barbarian or elf, yuan-ti clerics (bonus!), would be able to use a whole slew of new innates they weren't used to having at their group members' disposal, would have to learn to deal with the difficulties of zoning during the day, etc. and evilrace leaders would learn other things from using goodrace characters. What does this mean? Less boredom and a more diverse pbase. And, more importantly, an end to the "save the ebils" bbs campaign! O, the horror!
So, I spoke with a couple staff members yesterday because I wanted to know given various levels of playerbase support how open they would be to this sort of thing. Unfortunately, it's pretty much out of the question from the response I heard from them, though they welcome the discussion.
So that said, I suppose my ideas here were far too drastic, even though I think in the state of the mud and mudding in general, they probably aren't drastic enough.
As some of the helpfiles state, Toril/Sojourn during peak hours used to have ~250 players online. Now, at the highest times it would appear we see about 70.
Assuming even 20% of players were evils back during peak times, that left 50 evils on at peak, 200 goodies.
Now, with peak user numbers around 70, that leaves peak evils of 14. Not even a full group.
A lot of people say the solution is new players. i'm curious why anyone believes this will help?
When a new player comes into this mud, they are immediately told by all staff and helpers in several different ways that they should not play an evilrace, but should instead play a good race.
However, the same people who would be giving this advice are the ones saying that to salvage the evilrace pbase, we need more players.
Assuming the same 20% ratio, as follows:
1000 new players come to the mud in the next 3 months (probably not, but i'm being optimistic)
Assume 10% of them stick around for long-term play (this is probably optimistic as well)
Leaves us with 100 new players. Based upon old balance, we may see 20% of them play evilrace characters, giving us 20 new players total.
However, at this point in time, those 20 new evils are going to see that there is a severe deficiency in the evil pbase, so once again i'll be optimistic and say 5% of them go over to the good side instead.
15 new players. A single full group, if they all play at the same time, and all stick around.
I think my percentages here all around are optimistic in favor of higher evil numbers than the reality would be if this situation occured.
So I'm curious, by what logic does anyone think that a better pbase in general will help the evil pbase? The only possibility I see is the good pbase being so overrun that people move over to the evil side.
My biggest question is really one for the staff:
How much of a problem do you see this as? I don't think anyone really considers it to be one outside of the remaining evil players.
To be honest, I'd rather have 1000 constant crash bugs than the pbase imbalance/problems we have now. This is how bad *I* personally see it to be. How about everyone else?
So that said, I suppose my ideas here were far too drastic, even though I think in the state of the mud and mudding in general, they probably aren't drastic enough.
As some of the helpfiles state, Toril/Sojourn during peak hours used to have ~250 players online. Now, at the highest times it would appear we see about 70.
Assuming even 20% of players were evils back during peak times, that left 50 evils on at peak, 200 goodies.
Now, with peak user numbers around 70, that leaves peak evils of 14. Not even a full group.
A lot of people say the solution is new players. i'm curious why anyone believes this will help?
When a new player comes into this mud, they are immediately told by all staff and helpers in several different ways that they should not play an evilrace, but should instead play a good race.
However, the same people who would be giving this advice are the ones saying that to salvage the evilrace pbase, we need more players.
Assuming the same 20% ratio, as follows:
1000 new players come to the mud in the next 3 months (probably not, but i'm being optimistic)
Assume 10% of them stick around for long-term play (this is probably optimistic as well)
Leaves us with 100 new players. Based upon old balance, we may see 20% of them play evilrace characters, giving us 20 new players total.
However, at this point in time, those 20 new evils are going to see that there is a severe deficiency in the evil pbase, so once again i'll be optimistic and say 5% of them go over to the good side instead.
15 new players. A single full group, if they all play at the same time, and all stick around.
I think my percentages here all around are optimistic in favor of higher evil numbers than the reality would be if this situation occured.
So I'm curious, by what logic does anyone think that a better pbase in general will help the evil pbase? The only possibility I see is the good pbase being so overrun that people move over to the evil side.
My biggest question is really one for the staff:
How much of a problem do you see this as? I don't think anyone really considers it to be one outside of the remaining evil players.
To be honest, I'd rather have 1000 constant crash bugs than the pbase imbalance/problems we have now. This is how bad *I* personally see it to be. How about everyone else?
You are talking about removing what is probably the most fundamental rule on all of Toril. The racewar has been a foundation block for the majority of what has happened on this MUD today and in its history. It has shaped the playerbase and molded the roleplay of hundreds, maybe thousands of players. This is what Toril is. This is its heart.
Over the years, a lot has been done to simplify the game. The forced roleplay of the Mystra era has been eroded and broken down little by little. We got rid of outcasting. Necromancers and Anti-Paladins have been integrated into Waterdeep. Rangers and Paladins are allowed to group with evil goodrace characters. The trade restrictions between good and evil races have been relaxed. Evil races lost the "experienced player" tag when their hometowns were made less challenging. Evil Humans can now group with evil race characters. The universal grouping restriction is possibly the last remaining roleplay element still present in the game engine, with the exception of Paladins, Rangers, and Druids being required to meet alignment restrictions.
Are you sure you want to propose this? Removing the grouping restrictions will tear out a piece of Toril's soul. It will move the game one step further from "immersive roleplaying environment" and one step closer to "text-based game of item acquisition." Is that what you want? There's currently a resurgance of RP appearing on the forums. Is this the direction you want to move?
Duris maintains its racewar balance by making changes to various races and classes to keep them appealing. When the evil playerbase dips, evil races get beefed up a bit. When the undead side gets sparse, undead get buffed. Players follow the changes, and the balance is preserved.
I don't think anything will be done. Toril's history is to move slowly, to implement changes at a snail's pace and to hope everything works out for the best. Changing such a fundamental aspect of the game would take years worth of consideration, and probably a significant staff change, before it would ever become a reality.
Over the years, a lot has been done to simplify the game. The forced roleplay of the Mystra era has been eroded and broken down little by little. We got rid of outcasting. Necromancers and Anti-Paladins have been integrated into Waterdeep. Rangers and Paladins are allowed to group with evil goodrace characters. The trade restrictions between good and evil races have been relaxed. Evil races lost the "experienced player" tag when their hometowns were made less challenging. Evil Humans can now group with evil race characters. The universal grouping restriction is possibly the last remaining roleplay element still present in the game engine, with the exception of Paladins, Rangers, and Druids being required to meet alignment restrictions.
Are you sure you want to propose this? Removing the grouping restrictions will tear out a piece of Toril's soul. It will move the game one step further from "immersive roleplaying environment" and one step closer to "text-based game of item acquisition." Is that what you want? There's currently a resurgance of RP appearing on the forums. Is this the direction you want to move?
Duris maintains its racewar balance by making changes to various races and classes to keep them appealing. When the evil playerbase dips, evil races get beefed up a bit. When the undead side gets sparse, undead get buffed. Players follow the changes, and the balance is preserved.
I don't think anything will be done. Toril's history is to move slowly, to implement changes at a snail's pace and to hope everything works out for the best. Changing such a fundamental aspect of the game would take years worth of consideration, and probably a significant staff change, before it would ever become a reality.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Birile wrote:Hsoj wrote:what characters would it rend useless in zones or make second rate? Psi's >> Druids is all i can think of
Even your example of psi's >> druids is, imho, faulty. I don't see a psi area blinding or healing/vitting. I don't see many classes becoming useless if group restrictions no longer existed. We already pretty much unanimously agree that certain classes are already considered more useful than others, but that in no way means that some classes would become useless or would no longer be played. Look at rangers (not trying to make a joke). Each class has its own niche and truly is useful in some situations, if not all.
I don't see losing group restrictions as far as good/evilrace goes as being such a horrible thing that would kill the mud. Rather, it may be a good opportunity for some goodies to take the chance of leveling an evilrace character and enjoying that character for all its good points and bad. Frankly, I see it as giving us the opportunity to see more diversity in groups, group leaders would have a more diverse arsenal at their disposal (that is not to say a "better" arsenal, as the group limit is still 15, just a more diverse one--it's all about balance, after all)--goodrace leaders would learn how to best use a psi in battle, would learn the intricacies of whether a troll warrior was better than a barbarian or elf, yuan-ti clerics (bonus!), would be able to use a whole slew of new innates they weren't used to having at their group members' disposal, would have to learn to deal with the difficulties of zoning during the day, etc. and evilrace leaders would learn other things from using goodrace characters. What does this mean? Less boredom and a more diverse pbase. And, more importantly, an end to the "save the ebils" bbs campaign! O, the horror!
I've got to agree here. The reason I suggested this in the first place is I really don't see a huge impact on gameplay by eliminating the group/playing restrictions on races at this time. I could be wrong, I'm not a huge dice roll/statistics guy. Can anyone think of any specific instances where it would cause problems?
Ragorn wrote:You are talking about removing what is probably the most fundamental rule on all of Toril. The racewar has been a foundation block for the majority of what has happened on this MUD today and in its history. It has shaped the playerbase and molded the roleplay of hundreds, maybe thousands of players. This is what Toril is. This is its heart.
Over the years, a lot has been done to simplify the game. The forced roleplay of the Mystra era has been eroded and broken down little by little. We got rid of outcasting. Necromancers and Anti-Paladins have been integrated into Waterdeep. Rangers and Paladins are allowed to group with evil goodrace characters. The trade restrictions between good and evil races have been relaxed. Evil races lost the "experienced player" tag when their hometowns were made less challenging. Evil Humans can now group with evil race characters. The universal grouping restriction is possibly the last remaining roleplay element still present in the game engine, with the exception of Paladins, Rangers, and Druids being required to meet alignment restrictions.
Are you sure you want to propose this? Removing the grouping restrictions will tear out a piece of Toril's soul. It will move the game one step further from "immersive roleplaying environment" and one step closer to "text-based game of item acquisition." Is that what you want? There's currently a resurgance of RP appearing on the forums. Is this the direction you want to move?
Duris maintains its racewar balance by making changes to various races and classes to keep them appealing. When the evil playerbase dips, evil races get beefed up a bit. When the undead side gets sparse, undead get buffed. Players follow the changes, and the balance is preserved.
I don't think anything will be done. Toril's history is to move slowly, to implement changes at a snail's pace and to hope everything works out for the best. Changing such a fundamental aspect of the game would take years worth of consideration, and probably a significant staff change, before it would ever become a reality.
I actually agree with you. The problem is, I figured the staff would be more open to this idea than the latter idea in your post. I don't think they're going to be open to improving the evil race benefits in order to entice more players to go that route.
I could be wrong, I don't read minds -- this is just from the feeling I get from most of what they say.
Honestly? No, I hate the idea of ending it from the perspective of storyline, the "soul" of the game if you will. The problem is, it's been allowed to collapse so far, that at this point, I don't see any hope in reviving the evils without doing something -- anything -- very very drastic.
I'll add a bit on to the subject of this thread, because I'd really like to hear any suggestions anyone has for beefing up the evil pbase again.
-
Hsoj
- Sojourner
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I played Duris for years, and then for more years.. and then a few more years, and then I found Toril (don't ask me how i didn't see this earlier... nfc really). I rolled a dorf and got to lvl 20 and figured out some of the basics of life here. Then i rolled my shaman and I'm in the 40's now. I've started a rogue and see new players to the mud on evil side once in a while, it doesn't happen too often.
Here's a suggestion for beefing up the evil side... grant us solidarity and by us I mean true evils not them humanwus evils and by solidarity I mean an all inclusive evil guild, let goodies deal w/ association dues, but allow evil to take their prime and be in one accord with their brethren. Like Izisay said, on a good day we got a full group othertimes we don't and I honestly believe that if we had a channel to chat up about the game and some reason to be on with our guildmates that it'd help.
For all the admins who take a look at this and don't agree I got one thing to say... Come on.. Come on!!
Here's a suggestion for beefing up the evil side... grant us solidarity and by us I mean true evils not them humanwus evils and by solidarity I mean an all inclusive evil guild, let goodies deal w/ association dues, but allow evil to take their prime and be in one accord with their brethren. Like Izisay said, on a good day we got a full group othertimes we don't and I honestly believe that if we had a channel to chat up about the game and some reason to be on with our guildmates that it'd help.
For all the admins who take a look at this and don't agree I got one thing to say... Come on.. Come on!!
-==~ Tafah Auvry'ar'lyl | Fatah Fire Bath ~==-
Hsoj wrote:I played Duris for years, and then for more years.. and then a few more years, and then I found Toril (don't ask me how i didn't see this earlier... nfc really). I rolled a dorf and got to lvl 20 and figured out some of the basics of life here. Then i rolled my shaman and I'm in the 40's now. I've started a rogue and see new players to the mud on evil side once in a while, it doesn't happen too often.
Here's a suggestion for beefing up the evil side... grant us solidarity and by us I mean true evils not them humanwus evils and by solidarity I mean an all inclusive evil guild, let goodies deal w/ association dues, but allow evil to take their prime and be in one accord with their brethren. Like Izisay said, on a good day we got a full group othertimes we don't and I honestly believe that if we had a channel to chat up about the game and some reason to be on with our guildmates that it'd help.
For all the admins who take a look at this and don't agree I got one thing to say... Come on.. Come on!!
Hmm, Psionists providing a constant mental communications link between members of the evil races?
I'm not sure the players would actually be for this one. I think it's an interesting idea, but there's as much dissent amongst the evils as there is anywhere else.
The majority of active evils have already consolidated themselves into the Malevolent Order.
An interesting thought though -- bonuses to the evil side in the realm of group coordination. Only problem is I really can't think of any way to do it.
Everyone knows that if you want to PvP to either go to the arena or go to Duris. I would bet that the majority of the 70ish people we have on at peak hours are rather turned off by the idea of PvP. I, for one, sure am.
Rags--as far as losing the last vestige of an RP-based environment that this game was based on, well... the game's evolving and 95% of the people here really are just interested in getting bigger and badder items (all hail capitalism). Hell, if that weren't the case, they would have RP campaigns for the hell of it and not have to resort to handing out RP points (ie. bribery).
The racewars were for RP. The racewars are over--goodies and ebils don't frigging fight over anything. No fights = no battles. No battles = no war. The racewars aren't helping the ebils' situation in the least, and they're not helping the goodies either. Some of the more arrogant goodie players have suggested getting rid of the ebils because the wars are over. That's true, but why lose the ebils? They are some of the most interesting races on the MUD, it would be a shame to lose all the work put into them. And yet now we're NOT USING THEM. Put these races to use and just drop the group race restrictions.
Rags--as far as losing the last vestige of an RP-based environment that this game was based on, well... the game's evolving and 95% of the people here really are just interested in getting bigger and badder items (all hail capitalism). Hell, if that weren't the case, they would have RP campaigns for the hell of it and not have to resort to handing out RP points (ie. bribery).
The racewars were for RP. The racewars are over--goodies and ebils don't frigging fight over anything. No fights = no battles. No battles = no war. The racewars aren't helping the ebils' situation in the least, and they're not helping the goodies either. Some of the more arrogant goodie players have suggested getting rid of the ebils because the wars are over. That's true, but why lose the ebils? They are some of the most interesting races on the MUD, it would be a shame to lose all the work put into them. And yet now we're NOT USING THEM. Put these races to use and just drop the group race restrictions.
Or the 60% of the goodie playerbase that has a zoneable evil alt could play it once in a while...
Seriously, someone set up some oldschool evil zoning. Do it as an association, or a "merc" group. Either way, I know a lot of us miss playing those chars.
Ending the racewars would be devastating. You think it's bad with EFHR's? Imagine what the playerbase's race/class selection would be if anyone could group with anyone. You'd see 1-2 races per class type, whatever the prime race(s) are. Everyone would roll orc shamans, yuan-ti clerics, grey elf tanks, gnome/drow mages...you get my point.
Seriously, someone set up some oldschool evil zoning. Do it as an association, or a "merc" group. Either way, I know a lot of us miss playing those chars.
Ending the racewars would be devastating. You think it's bad with EFHR's? Imagine what the playerbase's race/class selection would be if anyone could group with anyone. You'd see 1-2 races per class type, whatever the prime race(s) are. Everyone would roll orc shamans, yuan-ti clerics, grey elf tanks, gnome/drow mages...you get my point.
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Hsoj
- Sojourner
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I disagree that the races would shift to the same for each class. People play different races for a reason and being able to group w/ anyone wouldn't change that.
a side note..
Would still need to implement the outcast system..
I.E. trolls would never be grouped w/ barbarians
a side note..
Would still need to implement the outcast system..
I.E. trolls would never be grouped w/ barbarians
-==~ Tafah Auvry'ar'lyl | Fatah Fire Bath ~==-
If you disagree with that, then you obviously haven't been playing here long enough. :P
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
I'd imagine he has a human druid so can group with evils? So there's one character that would be rendered obsolete. All the people who second optioned to roll human characters to group with evils, they should go make elves and snakes? You already have that factor imposed upon your troll shamans when orcs came along. Yasden is right, people do make characters based on stats and power here.
Having more players would help because you would get more people to potentially convince to play evils. People are still ranting about evils this goodies that, fact is, I play my evils more than just about anyone in any of the evil guilds, and I don't see anyone asking me to group or that they're going to lead something. I sent tells to THREE evils last night as a little evil asking for help, on was in the room with me actively smiting. I was completely ignored. That's not a good start. You need a leader, a real one, and you need to zone. I'd go zoning with any good leader as my evils.
I wholeheartedly agree with Ragorn's sentiment. Sojourn is founded on having a cool environment. Who want's to play on a mud where ogres regularly group with elves and groups are packed depending on stats, not me for sure. If you want to attract players from a commercial point where everyone's character is somehow owed a value, and must have something to do at all times provided for them, rather than them getting up and doing something, your competing with world of warcraft and whatever knocks it off its podium next. I think we should continue, or start, to actively try to attract players who enjoy building solid gaming and an enjoyable forgotten realms themed environment.
Having more players would help because you would get more people to potentially convince to play evils. People are still ranting about evils this goodies that, fact is, I play my evils more than just about anyone in any of the evil guilds, and I don't see anyone asking me to group or that they're going to lead something. I sent tells to THREE evils last night as a little evil asking for help, on was in the room with me actively smiting. I was completely ignored. That's not a good start. You need a leader, a real one, and you need to zone. I'd go zoning with any good leader as my evils.
I wholeheartedly agree with Ragorn's sentiment. Sojourn is founded on having a cool environment. Who want's to play on a mud where ogres regularly group with elves and groups are packed depending on stats, not me for sure. If you want to attract players from a commercial point where everyone's character is somehow owed a value, and must have something to do at all times provided for them, rather than them getting up and doing something, your competing with world of warcraft and whatever knocks it off its podium next. I think we should continue, or start, to actively try to attract players who enjoy building solid gaming and an enjoyable forgotten realms themed environment.
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
Yes to the shamans, not entirely true to the warriors part. Trolls may not be as agile as elves, but they most certainly have a ton more hps.
I chose human for my druid class for 2 reasons.
1. Evil groupability.
2. Far more hps over grey/half elves.
A select few of us pick lesser-played race/class combinations simply because we know the ins and outs of the mud, and are looking for the challenge.
I have:
An anti-paladin, which comparatively sucks to a paladin in terms of grouping. Sheer damage and tanking, combined, however, anti's are a close 2nd (maybe 3rd) in melee damage, compared to rangers.
An ogre shaman, whom I rolled (again) for the enormous HP boost. While it might not have been the smartest decision, he won't die from double cloud damage and he can doorbash/bodyslam.
A human druid, which I already explained above.
A dire raider, which was mostly for helping playertest them, he sits in the DK inn collecting dust at level 37.
...and my troll warrior. If I wasn't so spoiled on solo exp and regen, and the fact that I absolutely HATE ultravision, I would've rolled duergar or drow as my choice for warrior this wipe.
People who know how to play the mud well are going to pick the most optimal race/class combo available to them. It's as simple as that. I personally don't want to see a group with a grey elf, a troll, and a yuan-ti tank, 2 yuan-ti clerics, 2 orc shamans, 2 drow invokers, an illithid psionicist, gnome enchanter, yuan-ti illusionist, grey elf druid, halfling rogue, and orc battlechanter unless it's dealing with an RP campaign event of epic proportions. The rest of the people who don't play "optimal" race/class combos will *rarely* get groups, if ever.
That is the reason why I am so vehemently opposed to this. I'd rather have artifacts ruin the balance, because at least those can be removed/downgraded with a few keystrokes, and even then I'm not sure I'd want those either. But they're not the discussion here.
-Deathmagnet
I chose human for my druid class for 2 reasons.
1. Evil groupability.
2. Far more hps over grey/half elves.
A select few of us pick lesser-played race/class combinations simply because we know the ins and outs of the mud, and are looking for the challenge.
I have:
An anti-paladin, which comparatively sucks to a paladin in terms of grouping. Sheer damage and tanking, combined, however, anti's are a close 2nd (maybe 3rd) in melee damage, compared to rangers.
An ogre shaman, whom I rolled (again) for the enormous HP boost. While it might not have been the smartest decision, he won't die from double cloud damage and he can doorbash/bodyslam.
A human druid, which I already explained above.
A dire raider, which was mostly for helping playertest them, he sits in the DK inn collecting dust at level 37.
...and my troll warrior. If I wasn't so spoiled on solo exp and regen, and the fact that I absolutely HATE ultravision, I would've rolled duergar or drow as my choice for warrior this wipe.
People who know how to play the mud well are going to pick the most optimal race/class combo available to them. It's as simple as that. I personally don't want to see a group with a grey elf, a troll, and a yuan-ti tank, 2 yuan-ti clerics, 2 orc shamans, 2 drow invokers, an illithid psionicist, gnome enchanter, yuan-ti illusionist, grey elf druid, halfling rogue, and orc battlechanter unless it's dealing with an RP campaign event of epic proportions. The rest of the people who don't play "optimal" race/class combos will *rarely* get groups, if ever.
That is the reason why I am so vehemently opposed to this. I'd rather have artifacts ruin the balance, because at least those can be removed/downgraded with a few keystrokes, and even then I'm not sure I'd want those either. But they're not the discussion here.
-Deathmagnet
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
Thanks Yas.
I am against removing restrictions all together. It was mentioned that each individual player can RP not wanting to group with evil races, but to be frank (and this is a disappointment to myself and a few others) about 90% of the mud does not RP. They go for the gear, the fun in zones etc. If, as my bard, I tried to RP that I refused to group with a troll to go zone, I would be laughed out of a zone group, simply because most zone leaders don't RP.
This is not intended to slap at anyone. It is simply a statement of fact. I love going to zones with the people I follow. We usually have a good time. Sure, I've had the odd ocassion (during RP events usually) where I wished my half-elf could group with a troll (Yup Targsky.. that would be you. :P) but I got over it and worked around it.
I think what the "Drow brigade" are doing is a wonderful thing, and I really hope they're having fun. *grin* Maybe I'll join in, but I'm just not convincingly evil. *grin*
I am against removing restrictions all together. It was mentioned that each individual player can RP not wanting to group with evil races, but to be frank (and this is a disappointment to myself and a few others) about 90% of the mud does not RP. They go for the gear, the fun in zones etc. If, as my bard, I tried to RP that I refused to group with a troll to go zone, I would be laughed out of a zone group, simply because most zone leaders don't RP.
This is not intended to slap at anyone. It is simply a statement of fact. I love going to zones with the people I follow. We usually have a good time. Sure, I've had the odd ocassion (during RP events usually) where I wished my half-elf could group with a troll (Yup Targsky.. that would be you. :P) but I got over it and worked around it.
I think what the "Drow brigade" are doing is a wonderful thing, and I really hope they're having fun. *grin* Maybe I'll join in, but I'm just not convincingly evil. *grin*
Ask her to flay you with her chakram, you'll change your mind. :P
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
Top Mud Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=shev
Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
Oh it's very fun, Lilira. Scardale really is fun, with a bunch of low level evils along with you. Especially when you're basically pretending that the mud is pwiped and you're rebuilding from the start.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Hsoj wrote:neither is shar but we're slowly fixing her... ]=^d
How do you know? :) You should realize that I have many characters, including several evilraces, some of whom are much older than the present-day "hardcore" evils :) Never know who you group with.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
I have been an advocate of removing grouping restrictions for some time, as those who know me also know. Not that I am an opponent of racewars. It was one of the promised features of Sojourn that attracted me to it a decade or so ago. Unfortunately, the promise never materialized. We have never had mud-wide pvp of evil vs. good as originally envisioned a la MUME.
So. It has since seemed logical to me to remove the now arbitrary grouping restrictions. I can imagine ways of doing so while still maintaining some element of RP atmosphere. It's certainly not rocket science.
In my mind, as has been mentioned, the real impediment is game-play balance. There are certain class/race combinations that are so clearly superior that it's beyond all debate. It's my view that this skew exists already inside the current good and evil sides of race/class combinations, but removing the grouping restriction will exacerbate the situation.
My take is a two birds, one stone sort. That is, a complete rebalancing of racial abilities with an informed, historical view of the classes they have access too such that removing the grouping restriction would not adversely affect, say...an elven cleric vs. a yuan-ti cleric.
As this represents a lot of work, it will never get done, and without this very necessary step, removing the grouping barrier would be counter-productive. Long story short: forget it.
So. It has since seemed logical to me to remove the now arbitrary grouping restrictions. I can imagine ways of doing so while still maintaining some element of RP atmosphere. It's certainly not rocket science.
In my mind, as has been mentioned, the real impediment is game-play balance. There are certain class/race combinations that are so clearly superior that it's beyond all debate. It's my view that this skew exists already inside the current good and evil sides of race/class combinations, but removing the grouping restriction will exacerbate the situation.
My take is a two birds, one stone sort. That is, a complete rebalancing of racial abilities with an informed, historical view of the classes they have access too such that removing the grouping restriction would not adversely affect, say...an elven cleric vs. a yuan-ti cleric.
As this represents a lot of work, it will never get done, and without this very necessary step, removing the grouping barrier would be counter-productive. Long story short: forget it.
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