Invite-Only Forum

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Glorishan
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Invite-Only Forum

Postby Glorishan » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:04 pm

Ok, I understand the staff is apparently more active from a player standpoint now than apparently ever before. That's great for the game. However, I think it would be beneficial if certain players were invited to participate in discussion regarding zones/items/quests/etc... that need to be changed.

At work, we never make major changes without discussing it with our best managers first to see if there's something we're not seeing/considering. This has proven to be an extremely valuable step to our process of change, and I think it could help make better decisions and changes to the game.

I don't want this to sound like I think the staff makes poor decisions...I don't. I think they make the best decisions they can with the information they have. Sometimes it would just be better to solicit input from a select group of players. I would keep the forum only viewable by those players so as to avoid hundreds of posts with ideas from every player on the MUD.

Just a thought. Whacha think?
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'
Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'
Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:15 pm

I am 110% sure that this would NOT speed up anything.

It could generate an elitist environment though, and that is always a plus.
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Postby Glorishan » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:22 pm

It wasn't suggested to speed up individual changes...It was suggested to help improve changes, and prevent them from being made then tweeked 10 times to get it right. Maybe only needing a couple tweeks.

As far as the elitest environment, I'm not going to comment on it. If that's how you feel, than I'm sorry.
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'

Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'

Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
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Postby Latreg » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:07 pm

I certainly see this as being a very useful tool at keeping some of you tools from posting. Certainly would keep things on topic and flames etc out. I'm Elite at not being Elite.
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Postby Yarash » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:21 am

Disoputlip wrote:It could generate an elitist environment though, and that is always a plus.

Glorishan wrote:As far as the elitest environment, I'm not going to comment on it. If that's how you feel, than I'm sorry.

It was suggested that a "select" group of players be granted some sort of "advisor" status. Thus there would be two classes of people, those worth listening to, and then the rest of the grunts who don't know what they are talking about.

Disoputlip's comment is accurate.

- Mike
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Postby Vigis » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:38 am

There are other things to consider as well...

Who gets invited? Do we invite the players who have the most ptime? Do we invite the players who lead the most zones? Do we invite the players who participate in the most zones? Do we invite the people who think they have beaten the game and stop by the BBS to snipe every once in awhile?

You see where I am going here, right? I could go even further in depth, but we have seen just about every player type in the world since we have been around that long.

THIS BBS is basically an invite only, elitist forum. How many new people have you seen post here? Better yet, how many long term players have you seen even TRY to advertise or recruit?

Here is an idea of it: I posted around 7 hours ago that anybody could PM me for copies of the fliers I created using Botef's artwork. And the survey says: You have no new messages

Do we really need another way to keep newbies away?

Not to disrespect you or your guild, but your sig says it all:

Glorishan wrote:Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('


The majority of your guild gave up having an active role in this mud....now you say that certain people should be invited to direct it?

I'm going to stop now, because chances are that I would wake up and still be typing. Doesn't matter what I said, so have a good night.
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Postby Ifin » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:13 am

I think that there would be a problem with who would be entitled to such a forum and even the people within having access might have larger disagreements due to suggestions of changes to things they each possess.

I don't have much interaction w/the imms, but I'm curious if there's a policy within that imms must spend so much time playing/zoning/questing on their mortals.

I'm sure most imms were one-time big-time players, but I think having a requirement that they must spend x amt/y time not just on their morts but x amt zoning/questing per y time would help them keep their perspective.

I found it amusing when an area god had to ask for a map of a mid-level zones that most higher experienced players know by heart; imho, each imm should know the realms as well as any of the higher experienced players, which is why they're imms.

By making a grouping policy, it would increase the mort pbase and a lot of suggestions are said during gsays as well, which could be fed back to the higher imm levels, and would accomplish much what a closed-forum would.
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Postby Gormal » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:16 am

What does Glorishan's decision to remain in Elders have to do with his suggestion at all? Glorishan's cohorts might be terribly inactive, but he plays plenty. Even if he didn't, that's no reason that he doesn't have valuable insights to offer the game, I don't think he's forgotten the last decade of mudding overnight.

As far as the suggestion is concerned, I think that if it was handled properly, it would be a good tool for the MUD. I don't see the difference between a player getting a level 51+ admin god, and a player getting a spot on this new forum. The only way to moderate the selection and operation of this would be to put it in the hands of senior staff members... which we already do.

These players would gain a foreknowledge of changes/updates, but nothing to really give them a reason to be elitist as its remembered on Toril. What are they gonna do? Suddenly stop grouping people? This MUD doesn't even have the playerbase to discriminate anymore. At the very least, this should be seriously considered.
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:04 pm

Neither my guild's inactivity, nor my own has anything to do with my idea. Note at no point did I suggest that I be one of the people involved with it. Nor did I suggest that anybody from my guild be involved. In fact, I didn't suggest anybody at all. It was a simple suggestion that if considered would require much more time and effort to determine how it should be handled, and who would be involved.
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'

Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'

Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
Glorishan
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:23 pm

Just as 1 thought - it could be a system of nominations. The players could be the ones who decide who participates. In this system the nominated players would act as the voice of the playerbase.
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'

Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'

Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:49 pm

I say forum should be available to everybody, and it should cost 20000 platinum to join.

Then nobody can complain about not beeing invited, and only those that wants to participate will actually join. (this is not a plat sink).
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:30 pm

Vigis wrote:Better yet, how many long term players have you seen even TRY to advertise or recruit?


I've seen a lot of them pack up and leave.
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Postby Lilira » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:16 pm

Oh for the love of god people.

Leaving it wide open for ANYONE to discuss is the best way so far in my opinion because that means the imms can read and make note of ANY opinions, not just the people who are the cleverest at leading zones or twinking stuff.

The imms have BS filters as much as the rest of us and can look at a post, mutter and move on.

If the imms wish to ask the opinion of players there's always the sending them a tell method.

They (the imms) have already shown us that they listen. Adding more stuff to read isn't going to speed things up.
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:07 pm

Lilira wrote:Leaving it wide open for ANYONE to discuss is the best way so far in my opinion because that means the imms can read and make note of ANY opinions, not just the people who are the cleverest at leading zones or twinking stuff.


Yes, because the general population of the BBS has proven to have such useful insight into everything. Wait, either that or most people post useless drivel through which the staff has to sort to find any useful information.
Lilira wrote:The imms have BS filters as much as the rest of us and can look at a post, mutter and move on.

Yes, they have BS filters, but in a forum where they can actively solicit input from a group of well mud-ucated players, they can possibly make better decisions/changes than they could have on their own. Not because they're incapable, but because discussion is sometimes the best way to make the best decisions. And as we've seen in this thread already, it's nearly impossible to solicit opinions from the masses without it becoming a finger pointing-fest.

Lilira wrote:If the imms wish to ask the opinion of players there's always the sending them a tell method.

Yes, this is a possible option for them as it stands today. However, it requires that each person with whom they wish to speak be logged on at the right time. It also does not allow for the opportunity for expansion of ideas from one person to the next (at least not easily).

Lilira wrote:They (the imms) have already shown us that they listen. Adding more stuff to read isn't going to speed things up.

This would effectively be creating less for them to read than more. As it stands, the only ideas that come through are reactionary. And those posts aren't usually that constructive (emphasis on usually, sometimes they're great). However, even the most well-intentioned post in the ideas thread can get tossed around by people by saying 'that'll make the game even easier, that makes the game too hard and only the power gamer can do it, etc...' Under this proposed environment, a staff member could seek the opinions of the specific people. ie: Eil is considering changes to Hulburg/Beholders - rather than having to trudge through all of the information himself and try to figure out the best way to balance the mobs/zone, he could outline what he's thinking, and the players could point out possible logistical problems to the game plan. Or Eil could flat out ask for opinions on what could be done. If this were done out in the open forums, it would quickly deteriorate into flame fests as almost everything here does. I'm not making generalizations, I'm making observations. Almost every single thread like that turns into a disaster.
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'

Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'

Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
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Postby Tasan » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:01 pm

Vigis wrote:There are other things to consider as well...

Who gets invited? Do we invite the players who have the most ptime? Do we invite the players who lead the most zones? Do we invite the players who participate in the most zones? Do we invite the people who think they have beaten the game and stop by the BBS to snipe every once in awhile?


I'm certain we could allow the administrators to come up with a group of people they want opinions from, just as they come up with people to help with NHC.

Vigis wrote:THIS BBS is basically an invite only, elitist forum. How many new people have you seen post here? Better yet, how many long term players have you seen even TRY to advertise or recruit?


It's not invite-only, there is a direct advertisement for it when you first connect. There's also a link for advertising purposes. I really don't understand your correllation between the "elite forums" and advertising from long time players.

Vigis wrote:Here is an idea of it: I posted around 7 hours ago that anybody could PM me for copies of the fliers I created using Botef's artwork. And the survey says: You have no new messages


I didn't even look at the general discussion forum for 3 days. I'm sure there are other people who don't bother to read it. Maybe you should have posted it in Ideas?

Vigis wrote:Do we really need another way to keep newbies away?


How is a forum intended as a better bridge between players and staff going to drive new players away?

Vigis wrote:Not to disrespect you or your guild, but your sig says it all:

Glorishan wrote:Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('


The majority of your guild gave up having an active role in this mud....now you say that certain people should be invited to direct it?


*boggle* No suggestion from him about who should be involved in the forum, yet you jump to the assumption that he means him and his friend's/guild only?

If you want to stop driving newbies away, these kind of things could be avoided. Specifically making assumptions without any basis whatsoever and making veiled attacks. I don't buy the holier-than-thou attitude when your post wavers from open contempt to righteous indignation.

Vigis wrote:Doesn't matter what I said, so have a good night.


You're right, it doesn't matter what you said moreso how you said it.

The fact is this idea has a lot of merit and you people are too scared to admit it. People like me wouldn't be on the forum, people like Corth wouldn't be on the forum. People that would be? How about these people if they were interested:

Lilithelle
Jhorr
Ifin
Branthur
Aluvon
Sotana
Ekiga
Shaiith
Todrael
Turg
Sarell


There are more possibilities obviously, but these people have shown knowledge of the game at all levels; whether it be social aspects, mechanics within the game or enhancing the world and it's link to the FR world it is based upon. Lili, Jhorr, Ifin, Shaiith, Tod, Turg and Sarell are very accomplished leaders. They know aspects of most zones and fights and are capable of talking about them in a professional manner. Ekiga, Sotana, Aluvon and Branthur are very social, friendly, knowledgeable people who can add an element based on their interaction with new players. I fail to see how a forum for these people in addition to the current forums for all could detract from the overall experience of ANYONE.

I think it's sad that you all want progress but are too scared of things that have happened in the past to see how this idea has merit.
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Postby Nilan » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:02 pm

I think that if all that play here cant have their opinions considered then it kinda reeks of elitism to me. I mean, why cant all post their concerns. They play here too. They should have just as much input an say in what goes on in a game that is open to ALL players.

I am a long time player here and there are plenty of other long time players here too. Are you gonna say that their input isnt important or considered simply because they are not in a certain clique of players here? And what about the newer players? They have valuable input as well, and if they have concerns who is to say they can not voice them simply because they are not in the "selected few"?

If you all want to make your own invite only bbs then do so. But I think the bbs should be open to everyone. I think the Gods are more than able to read the posts of all involved, decide what ideas are of value and weed out the flames and stuff. I gotta agree with Lilira's post on this one.


Nilan
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:18 pm

Nilan wrote:I think that if all that play here cant have their opinions considered then it kinda reeks of elitism to me. I mean, why cant all post their concerns. They play here too. They should have just as much input an say in what goes on in a game that is open to ALL players.

I am a long time player here and there are plenty of other long time players here too. Are you gonna say that their input isnt important or considered simply because they are not in a certain clique of players here? And what about the newer players? They have valuable input as well, and if they have concerns who is to say they can not voice them simply because they are not in the "selected few"?

If you all want to make your own invite only bbs then do so. But I think the bbs should be open to everyone. I think the Gods are more than able to read the posts of all involved, decide what ideas are of value and weed out the flames and stuff. I gotta agree with Lilira's post on this one.


Nilan


It was never suggested that the existing ideas forum be removed. You, as an old time player, and new players alike would still be able to address concerns there. The invite section of the bbs would be to discuss issues that the staff are having. Conversation would be initiated by them, not by the players. All this talk about elitism...good grief. It feels like freekin McCarthy yelling 'communist!' all over the place.
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'

Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'

Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
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Postby Nilan » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:38 pm

What happens if people not invited in this forum have issues or things that need discussed though? Does this select body discuss them? And then hand down the rules? Im not certain thats a good idea if that is the ultimate intent behind the player driven invite only forum.

And it seems that the mud 'players' as a whole are not being represented. Only the select few chosen to be in this invite only arena. On its face, it doesnt seem to keep the interests of ALL players involved but just furthers the interest of a selected few players. Thats my concern.

From what I see on this bbs the Gods are perfectly able to handle their tasks and duties and coding etc...with this mud. I dont see them stating they need players to do this for them. They are working hard to bring us 2.0 , rp campaigns, etc...

My concern is that this "Invite Only' forum will be made up of only a selected bunch that doesnt even meet the representations of all the players on this game. The posted list contains players that havent played this game in ages. I see no representatives from the new players, no representatives from the rp players, no representatives from the mid level players, and no representatives from the high level players on this list. The only representation on that list is a selected group of people in a selected clique.

This is not a fair representation of ALL players on this game and in my belief ALL players have a right to be heard, from level 50 high end gamer right down to the level 1 newbie player.

Nilan
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Postby Glorishan » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:03 am

Nilan wrote:What happens if people not invited in this forum have issues or things that need discussed though? Does this select body discuss them? And then hand down the rules? Im not certain thats a good idea if that is the ultimate intent behind the player driven invite only forum.

And it seems that the mud 'players' as a whole are not being represented. Only the select few chosen to be in this invite only arena. On its face, it doesnt seem to keep the interests of ALL players involved but just furthers the interest of a selected few players. Thats my concern.

From what I see on this bbs the Gods are perfectly able to handle their tasks and duties and coding etc...with this mud. I dont see them stating they need players to do this for them. They are working hard to bring us 2.0 , rp campaigns, etc...

My concern is that this "Invite Only' forum will be made up of only a selected bunch that doesnt even meet the representations of all the players on this game. The posted list contains players that havent played this game in ages. I see no representatives from the new players, no representatives from the rp players, no representatives from the mid level players, and no representatives from the high level players on this list. The only representation on that list is a selected group of people in a selected clique.

This is not a fair representation of ALL players on this game and in my belief ALL players have a right to be heard, from level 50 high end gamer right down to the level 1 newbie player.

Nilan


1) I never posted any list

2) The list that was posted wasn't a formal nomination :P It was simply a list of people who could bring possible insight into changes.

3) Not all players who play the game are going to be able to give valuable insight into zone changes like Hulburg - a novel idea, but unrealistic.

4) Yeah, the gods do a fine job with rp campaign and what not, so there would be no reason for this to be dicussed in an invite forum. Same for 2.0 - handle it on their own. However, some changes go in that just don't end up making sense logistically - not because the staff make bad decisions, but because they are in a position where they have to make every decision on their own. There's a reason committees exist in the real world - brainstorming.

5) You all must be right. If anybody is given an opportunity to try to help the staff think of things that otherwise might be missed, they could only do it while pushing their own agenda. This would create an elitest environment, further the separation between power gamers and non power. How could I have missed this? My bad. /sarcasm
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'

Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'

Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
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Postby Tasan » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:46 am

Nilan wrote:My concern is that this "Invite Only' forum will be made up of only a selected bunch that doesnt even meet the representations of all the players on this game.


That's the point. We want people that know the game and the mechanics. The forum would be a sounding board for broad changes made by the staff so that they could receive player input before "screwing up" things we suggested etc.

Nilan wrote:The posted list contains players that havent played this game in ages. I see no representatives from the new players, no representatives from the rp players, no representatives from the mid level players, and no representatives from the high level players on this list.


Dude, wtf list are you referring to? The one I posted represents the entire group you just mentioned. Maybe _you_ are the one with a misguided view of who plays and what people know.

And again if you read any of the previous posts: This is an additional forum, it is not meant to replace these forums or anything like that, so take the whining about elitism elsewhere.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:15 am

Gormal wants artifacts, politics, and god favoritism!

Too bad this idea will only affect the second one of those:(
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:58 am

Yes, this should be implemented immediately. The point though is not to assist the gods with implementing new things. Thats how we will justify it but nobody will believe it for a minute. Not at all. Instead, the point of this is to give the elite people who are favored by the gods inside knowledge! And artifacts!

This mud is pussyriffic and has been that way a long time. Bring back <a href="http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14319">artifacts, politics, and god favoritism</a> you frigging morons. Enough of this nancy ass egalitarian crap. It doesn't work in games.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:39 pm

Okay, bear with me a moment cus I'm kinda half awake here...

1) Establishing a private forum WOULD make it easier for the Imms to get information from well experienced players to find out concerns, etc. MY concern (and this is NOT meant to disparage the imms) is that it would become easier for them to ignore the other posts on the BBS (especially when it becomes time to put on the hip waders) in favor of only things proposed on this forum, just because they don't have to wade through the other stuff. A lot of the time its human nature to want to take the easy path, and when they're as busy as they are, it would be a simple thing to fall into. Even if that doesn't happen with the imms.. what is to keep people from badgering the "members" of the forum with their gripes?

2) If we could act like the adults MOST of us are, and avoid the flaming and avoid "crapping up the threads" (yeah I know I've been guilty too) in the ideas/gameplay sections, we would not NEED a private forum.

3) There are other ways to get ahold of the imms with concerns than the BBS via mmail, Private messages on the board, and email.

We all want to be able to help improve this playground of ours, but if only a selected few are polled and listened to, then it will make the rest of us feel less welcome at the slide.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:41 pm

So we're going to lighten the imm's workload by giving them two forums of useless drivel to read?

Excellent, especially when people feel the need to plaster their stupid opinions on two boards.

Funnily enough, there already is an invite only forum where you can communicate directly with any imm if they so chose to receive it.

help email, noobs.
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Postby Ifin » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:44 pm

Browsing the forums since I can't play atm.

I think that too many people are jumping on the "elite" and "favoritism" bandwagon. I'll preface that for the most part I'm just a copy-catter, since most strategies and/for zones were formed before I started even playing.

I can't see why people can't objectively state who are the ones that are worth listening to, ie these people when they know something is out of balance, you **already** do listen to it on accs/gsays and hear the people who aren't the leaders agree. And this is just pure gameplay, I don't see why RP would matter in this aspect.

Think about when you need quest info, or need something led, or hey how do I kill this mob, I bet 99% of the time most people would think of the same players to ask.

IE, Lili, Pava, Sarell who still actively still play, and I don't think anyone would argue their experience/insight atm. The list can be expanded a tier, which is the tricky part (ie Pidi, Jhorr, Gormal, etc. longtime players w/massive experience who might not be as visible or leaders), but even implementing a feedback for the 1st "non-debatable" tier might help.

How often do you see Lili/Pava/Sarell post? Not too often. Yet I know they think about changes all the time, easy to implement changes. And they give their ideas when asked, but it is awkward to post on such a public forum, esp. when you don't know what the focus of the imms are.

Ie like Glori said, Hulburg changes.

I don't see how opening up a topic from an imm on these boards, "feedback Hulburg" would accomplish - it's way different leading than following and thinking you "know" the zone. And I don't see why any of the people who should know (in most cases these people) would out of the blue e-mail/pm an imm. In this scenario Lili is the only one I know of that would probably know the best "balance".

Again, it's different perspective for different topics I think Glori is suggesting. Things like re-classifying spells, typos, some suggestions at eq changes, newbie suggestions etc. fit well here, and I doubt would be ignored and shouldn't be posted in Glori's suggestion forum.

But to say that everyone can judge the worth of some eq, extremes such as 2/2, musp invasion, nighthunter greaves, and some extreme other stuff that I won't list b/c a few, not b/c they're 'elite' but b/c they think and have a good grasp on classes/eq/etc. can "twink" and even say "hey, plz make it un-twinkable even tho 90% of the MUD can't get it like we do".

And again, knowing the broad range of zones/eq/quests and seeing how it all fits together relatively, and actually *knowing* the *minimum effort* needed to get stuff *relatively* I think is key to being able to discuss these things, which I can't see why it's argued that everyone would be able to.

And again for zones. Sure you been to maybe 1 hr and 2 hr Izan's, single dragons that spank and groups that breeze through 5, 2.5 hr scorps but also 2.5 hr seelie... but can you say that the majority can actually say which is harder and why w/o knowing what classes are missing day to day, the actual skill levels needed to complete each zone, and exactly which is "harder" and "why"?

There is a difference between what Glori is suggesting and these open forums here, which make it so I don't think neither would be ignored. His suggestion is to find a way to help open up the thoughts of the people who have a lot to say but is awkward to post it here w/o the prompting.

(this rant brought on b/c 1st it's egalitarian about tia eq, esp since it's already argued they're "de-facto" artifacts, and now about who knows what)
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Postby Tasan » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:39 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:help email, noobs.


Well I'm sure everyone knows that email and a forum bring completely different methods of conversation to mind, so I'm not even going to bother trying to explain this.

Thank you for proving our point.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:33 pm

I think the main advent to an invite only forum, would allow those select members foreknowledge of changes, allowing them to see potential problems that the staff might miss before they come into the game. Its already been said that Toril has a track record for being reactionary towards problems, when many players (who aren't staff and play a lot more) see things from a players perspective and see the problems before they happen.

Think of it as a thinktank/playtesting without playtesting, and you might see the benefits a little more.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:00 pm

I dont see this as a bad idea at all.. I see it as a beginning to a more self sufficient, player run government.. I'm just jealous cause I'm too noob to be included (and rightly so!!)

What would be tough is to decide who gets to post. I'd say NO inactive players at all, and only those who actively zone or lead. Logging in to do ONE zone a month is not active. I know some players (Pidi comes right to mind) have more insight into game and zonal mechanics than most leaders, so folks like these would definitely be *in*. And would we put bugs in the ears of these people who then post ideas? I see it as sort of a game chat channel for the informed.. much like the nhc is inacessible to some players, so would this be :) Also a set number of prime evils and goodies to get both *sides* represented ....

Would the average player get to read the forum but not post?

Kudos in my opinion :)
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Postby Gormal » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:52 pm

I don't nessecarily agree with restricting it to active players only. Some of the more insightful things posted here are from people who've moved on. Dartan, Ragorn, Corth, and Ashiwi, for example, are all inactive to varying degrees and still have plenty of viable ideas and solutions for the game.

Not to offend anyone, but depending how you look at it, plenty of the staff falls into that inactive catagory too. /foodforthought
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Postby Ambar » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:57 pm

we are talking a players forum .. the folks that dont play actively anymore dont have the right insight as to things NOW .. i think the staff and all the rest of us, know what ideas corth and dartan have (no insult to them at all) but they have made their requests VERY loud and clear .. we need players who will offer true insight to balance, not to what they want or what worked in their hayday ... todays leaders know how new things work and how new players interact ..


for the record ashiwi plays :)
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:14 pm

Ambar wrote:for the record ashiwi plays :)


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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:31 am

Tasan wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:help email, noobs.


Well I'm sure everyone knows that email and a forum bring completely different methods of conversation to mind, so I'm not even going to bother trying to explain this.

Thank you for proving our point.


You're not on gmail, are you. I'm not even going to bother trying to explain this.

Good job losing your point.

Incidentally, the players who have spent the most time to get to know the game have the most invested in it. It's a conflict of interest to advise the staff on how to change the rules of the game when those rules primarily affect those same players - nevermind the fact that those players will be most interested in certain or specific parts of the game.

What's bad about being specifically focused on the high end game?

I'm not going to bother trying to explain this.

Let's recap:

*Conflict of Interest - players will look out for themselves.
*Focus on Specific Player's Interests - the mud gets the shaft.
*Doubling Staff Workload - now they have to work twice as hard to hear twice the bitching.
*Tasan doesn't really understand how e-mail and common e-mail programs work, like Outlook or gmail, which organizes conversations and additional recipients much like a forum thread (for heaven's sake, learn to use the CC line at least. do you even understand the 'reply to all' button?).

Tasan, the fact that you have no idea how to use email is a weak argument for an even weaker idea. But if you guys really want an Invite-Only forum, not only will I set one up, I'll promise not to bother posting in it and will do all the work for free. I hate to have to say it, but having spoken with members of staff and even argued with them, they have a better idea of how to handle things then you all really give them credit for.

(not that they're the best, but hey, at least they're not like you.)
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Postby Gormal » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:11 am

Teflor: Stop baiting Twyl with your incredibly stupid arguments. What does it matter if you can simulate the bbs functionality with an email client? Unless you're trying to demonstrate to the MUD how useless drivel clutters up the bbs and we need an invite-only forum to keep people like you out of discussions, just stop.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:51 am

*pulls up a chair*

Oh damn! Where's my popcorn!
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:38 pm

Corth wrote:Yes, this should be implemented immediately. The point though is not to assist the gods with implementing new things. Thats how we will justify it but nobody will believe it for a minute. Not at all. Instead, the point of this is to give the elite people who are favored by the gods inside knowledge! And artifacts!

This mud is pussyriffic and has been that way a long time. Bring back <a href="http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14319">artifacts, politics, and god favoritism</a> you frigging morons. Enough of this nancy ass egalitarian crap. It doesn't work in games.


Works in WoW!

Also, should do whatever Glorishan is saying. The people who are breaking game mechanics, the first to do zones etc. should be given some sort of extra attention because they will have the input to make this game better.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:41 pm

Gormal wrote:Teflor: Stop baiting Twyl with your incredibly stupid arguments. What does it matter if you can simulate the bbs functionality with an email client? Unless you're trying to demonstrate to the MUD how useless drivel clutters up the bbs and we need an invite-only forum to keep people like you out of discussions, just stop.


Gormal: what stupid arguments? In my opinion suggestions like an invite-only forum is the useless drivel that clutters up the bbs.

Here's a couple of reasons:
*Conflict of Interest - players will look out for themselves.
*Focus on Specific Player's Interests - the mud gets the shaft.
*Doubling Staff Workload - now they have to work twice as hard to hear twice the bitching.
*Private discussion can occur with e-mail with forum like functionality.

Now, I offered to put up an invite-only forum. If any of you are actually serious about this idea, you could simply just take me up on my offer, unless you have some more useless drivel, just stop with your incredibly stupid arguments.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:46 pm

Conflict of interest is kind of silly to say here .. since this is a player run (yes, the immorts DO play) text based GAME... should there be no changes to the classes they play since it would be a conflict of interest??
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Postby Botef » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:37 pm

First and foremost Im neither for nor against this but have some thoughts that come to mind. I no doubt agree that player/immortal discussions on changes to quests/zones/eq is needed and that a public forum isn't always an acceptable place for this.

Couple things come to mind though:

First and foremost would be that the players selected to be apart of a special forum with the specific intent of discussing potential and current changes is those players would have inside knowledge to things that have yet to transpire but could/would be in the futre. We already hear somewhat regular complaints about god leaks on zone info and quests so I have to wonder what could occur in a private enviorment like this where not only would this information be discussed but condoned aswell. How would you feel if you found yourself in a situation where you made an equipment trade only to find a week later the stats on the item you traded for where changed, and that the person you traded with was one of the players selected to be a part of this panel...Regardless of if they did infact have inside information on the pending change the situation would still leave a bitter taste in their mouths and leave bad feelings about immortals and players alike.

Second would be the potential diloution to the value of other players input. By creating this kind of hierarchy your implicating a value structure for peoples ideas. Yes, the gods would have less 'shit' to dig through on this BBS to find 'good' ideas...But by implenting such a system your also building a crutch and giving immortals less reason to dig through what does get posted here, and regardless of the rarity, oddball players do post solid ideas and input now and again. Thats one of the reasons this forum exists, for the communication between players & immortals...Undermining that with a 'private' enviorment almost seems counterproductive and discouraging to those not invited who might think their ideas are ignored when not run through the proper channel. However, I also feel that some things are not acceptable to discuss publically, like details of how a quest is done, how a fight is twinked, etc.

All that aside I do agree that opening the doorway for discussion between our active and informed playerbase and immortals in a position to gauge and make changes could be a valuable tool - but is a private and hidden forum the right way to go about this? Why should those selected to be a part of this forum be privy to changes and not everyone else? Because they lead alot? Because they are good friends with the staff? Because they know more than other players alread, so whats the harm? I'd sure like to know if my 2/2 is going to get downgraded before everyone else does so I can trade it while it still has value - and I'm sure you'd all agree.


If filtering out the flames and the 'bad' ideas is the goal of creating such an enviorment why privatize who can see it? Why not create a forum visable to ALL players and simply exclude who is allowed to post? One anwser that comes to mind is people would again be left with a bad taste in their mouths because they are not allowed to express their ideas with the same value as those selected. Another would be some of these discussions are not suitable for 'everyones' eyes because they require indepth discussion of how a quest is done, how a fight can be done, etc.

The next obvious problem is how do you select someone for this? What are the requirments? How do you create a policy for placing greater emphasis on one player over another? And is devoting a bunch of time to creating such a policy even worth the time it would take to maintain it.

Looking at the posted list above I wouldn't be too concerned as I feel most of the players listed are fairly honest and good at heart and hopefully wouldn't take advantage of other players with inside knowledge, but thats not to say it wouldn't happen.

The idea makes sense but there are a lot of open ends that would create a lot of disparity. I'd be curious to hear some of the opinions of those names listed by Tasan as potentials, though I suspect they don't want to be a part of the agressive opinions this thread has already generated.

All that aside I do agree that player/immortal discussion on things that need changing is important. Its very difficult to gauge changes without having an understanding of the full picture...While an EQ's stats might fit the risk/ratio for a zone or quest, it might not fit in comparsion to other items of 'equal' value with less effort, and this kind of understanding comes with playing alot and seeing it all first hand. I see the potential, but I question the outcome. Despite all that I 100% agree that the kinds of players that most likely would be selected for such a forum could do a lot in the way of pushing for changes where they need to be made and how best to go about enacting them.

/2cents
Last edited by Botef on Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:12 am

Conflict of Interest = moot point.

Who are you trying to protect from it?

Too late.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:06 am

I don't see this potential forum being used to stat equipment, or give too much zone-specific information that could leader players to cheat. I see it as a place for the staff to go to a group of mortals with an idea, or a new piece of code and ask their opinions/insights on it. For instance: rather than an open thread on how people all think the new beholder code is too rough, knowledgable players list specific circumstances in existing zones that they already know which need certain tweaks due to the new code, which eyes need toning down or up, and limits that should be placed on how the code is used.

Its not about favoritism, its about creating an enviornment where players that people nominated by both staff and mortals can openly solicit advice and try to make the MUD a better place. People are so concerned about how they feel slighted, or those chosen players will have an advantage that they're missing the benefits of something so simple. The fact is that the staff already asks particular mortals what they think about changes/code before and after it comes in. This just expands on the current practice allowing people to help out without actually being 'staff'. If implemented correctly, it might make more players feel like they have a voice in the way the game is going.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:20 am

Sorry, I don't want everyone to have my email address.

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but what if...

Postby shalath » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:46 am

What if such a forum already exists? But those of you posting on here don't know about it?

Or perhaps some people do, but are posting here in order to safeguard the secret?

Perhaps it's been going on from the start?

But you don't know about it...

-thalash
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Postby Gormal » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:11 am

*dons his tin foil hat*
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:16 am

The first rule of an invite only forum, is you don't talk about the invite only forum.

The second rule of an invite only forum, is you don't talk about the invite only forum.

And the third rule of the invite only forum? You do not talk about the invite only forum.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:02 am

I think with a fairly low pbase it probably isn't necessary. If you took five people to that forum, that's probably 5% of the active pbase. For me, I wouldn't want to find out secrets before they come in; if it was a forum where changes and zones were run by players. In a game where there isn't that many players, it could be quite detrimental, info spreads fast. The regular BBS leaks WAY too much information as it is. I like playing from a player's standpoint, I would of preferred to always be mystified about if luck really did something for example.

When a specific new item needs changing or how a zone went of the first run many gods will ask the players involved what they thought already. In the same vein I often won't post in the BBS at all about a topic because I don't really want to tell everyone about it or how it works, kinda ruins the game, but I'm more than ready to share my opinion if somebody asks of it. Admins' BS detectors are quite good I imagine as Lirela pointed out. Perhaps reading the regular BBS isn't such a big job if you are in fact an administrator here?

If you ran every zone before wise old players such as Corth before it went in, he could probably tell you exactly how the nifty items would be twinked and by who, avoiding future changes and balancing headaches.

Perhaps you could just create a new BBS for Teflor and Dartan to chat on, can post flaming chickens there or something. Make it email enabled *ruffle*. Perhaps also add a thread to this forum called 'omg I just got this item, can you change it so it is more suited to just my character and change this spell so it works for me better so I can twink something I reckon the admin don't know about?'. Might save a lot of eyework.
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Postby Demuladon » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:55 am

Instead of more bbs I suggest Toril2.0 goes retro..

remove the bbs and force all posters/lurkers to use the ingame boards.

Pbase will triple overnight!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:55 pm

Tasan wrote:Sorry, I don't want everyone to have my email address.


Ya, I feel you on that one.
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Postby Guardias » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:13 pm

Maybe instead of creating a new place for people to post and argue we should instead focus on not flaming and such in the current boards. I think all people should have the right to have their ideas heard and weighed equally be they vet or newb. Just keep spam and flaming down to a minimum in this forum and that will help immortals more than another forum.



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Postby moritheil » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:29 pm

Is this thread elite?
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