NSFW Policy - Complaint

Life, the universe, and everything.
Forum rules
- No personal attacks against players or staff members - please be civil!
- No posting of mature images/links, keep content SFW. If it's NSFW, don't post it on these forums.
Llaaldara
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NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Llaaldara » Thu May 08, 2008 7:33 pm

I wish to register a complaint.

This forum, over the years, has always been a place I can go to read and view content that I find humorous. A lot of the humor I find posted here arrives here long before I see it elsewhere. It is almost like being in an underground club. I admit, that the more regular posters here have the overwhelming desire to argue with one another, and to an extent, playfully flame each other. I have contributed my fair share over the years, and from time to time I do so again. I do this, because I know none of these regular posters take it superseriously. They take the pitch, and they hit it right back at me. There is something... disarming about that.

I have come to accept these forums as never being "Work Safe" because of the adult tone, and the regularly posted images (which I more often then not, find humorous). As annoying as most of the regulars can be to me at times, there is a truth to them, they continually beg the question of 'who is really right?' which does something to a reader like myself, it makes me want to know what is really going on with the topic, and to look into it more.

Despite what many might think when first reading these forums, there is an actual level of respect between the various posters, which we see because.. there are some lines we just don't cross. These forums could be entirely worse then they currently are. We don't see blatant all out war between posters, we see heated debates. We don't see pornographic content or equally rated X type content, we see fat people in their underwear and goat imagery placed in humorous contexts.


So my complaint is with the newfound desire to police the forums, as it is de-humoring them in my opinion. As long as things don't get entirely out of hand, and that line we don't seem to cross, stays unbroken, I don't see what the problem is. If there is a problem with viewers viewing a NSFW site at work, then I question their decision to view the material from work in the first place?

Because from my perspective, there is no safe for work imagery. If you have crazy pics up on your computer, good or bad, it clearly shows the same thing: You are not working. Regardless, there is apparently a need to have the imagery policed. Well I have two suggestions on what to do then:

A) Just disable the ability to insert imagery into posts. Allow posters to only post links. Problem solved.
Or
B) Designate certain forums as NSFW and WS respectively. Such as Gameplay, Work Safe only. General discussion, come on, it's gossip, make it NSFW and let them gab away (some of us just log in here now to read this specific forum). Doing such would help the administrators keep an appropriate tone on the topic subject matter, and validate your reasons for any necessary policing of a thread.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Thilindel » Thu May 08, 2008 8:08 pm

They need a 'Naughty Files' subfolder!
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby avak » Thu May 08, 2008 8:15 pm

Great post. Too bad the chances of anyone caring at this point are minimal.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Ragorn » Thu May 08, 2008 8:19 pm

This forum has never been NSFW. I won't say that NOBODY has EVER posted NSFW content, but the incidence is extremely low.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Sarvis » Thu May 08, 2008 8:36 pm

Teyaha's old model photos are about the closest I've ever seen to NSFW on these forumns, and they weren't...

Maybe Shev works in a convent or something, and that's skewing his view on the matter. :P
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Thu May 08, 2008 8:46 pm

Ragorn wrote:This forum has never been NSFW. I won't say that NOBODY has EVER posted NSFW content, but the incidence is extremely low.


I would agree.

As for the op, I definately agree with #2. I think the NSFW policy needs to be discussed and clarified. And in the event that a lot of the recently banned stuff is still considered NSFW, it would be nice to have General be the place for such content or at least a sub forum to where everything within it would be considered NSFW (even if it really isn't).

I still don't quite understand the non-allowance of NSFW tagged threads. It would still allow those at work to view the other material within general that they would normal be allowed to view (which is the reasoning behind the ban), and would still allow those of us that don't view the forums in a business environment to view all the matieral. When those at work get home, they would then be able to view the rest of the threads. In this case, nobody is hurt, and everybody wins. The recent limiting of content, as was posted earlier, has virtually sucked the humor from the forums and has become a place for ONLY arguing and debate. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but, while I like debating certain topics, politics gets very boring after a while and it's nice to also have "risque" humor as well.

With the way things are now, you may as well just name this the political debate forum rather than general.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Dalar » Thu May 08, 2008 9:27 pm

avak wrote:Great post. Too bad the chances of anyone caring at any point are minimal.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Sarvis » Thu May 08, 2008 9:29 pm

Kifle wrote:With the way things are now, you may as well just name this the political debate forum rather than general.


Just need to change the forum subtitle to "Life, the Universe, and everything... that doesn't make Baby Jesus blush."
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Thu May 08, 2008 9:57 pm

There were numerous suggestions and valid complaints in the last thread, but they were either disregarded entirely or greeted with a brick wall. What's sad is how many people have talked to me in chat about how they don't agree with the new forum policies, but don't feel comfortable posting because they don't need the Shev doomgaze directed at them. Anyone who agrees with the administration has no qualms about posting their opinions.

Things are going to be how Shev wants them, bottom line. Suggestions that aren't in line with his vision and ideals are not going to go anywhere.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Thu May 08, 2008 11:11 pm

These forums have rarely been NSFW and the need to moderate such images doesn't arise very often. I've proposed in other threads the option of posting such content as a link with an NSFW tag and I still haven't really gotten any feedback on that.

Sure, I could just turn off image posting altogether but I'd rather not have to limit the forums that way. I'm not overly prudish, I don't work in a convent, and I'm not easily offended. I don't want or expect the forums to be some sort of overly censored police state, I just don't want adult images posted here. We need to agree on a set of conventions and the easiest and most widely known I know of is "safe for work."

I can happily agree to not be overly zealous in image moderation if we can all agree on the convention and cease this non-constructive arguing.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Thu May 08, 2008 11:18 pm

Shevarash wrote:These forums have rarely been NSFW and the need to moderate such images doesn't arise very often. I've proposed in other threads the option of posting such content as a link with an NSFW tag and I still haven't really gotten any feedback on that.

Sure, I could just turn off image posting altogether but I'd rather not have to limit the forums that way. I'm not overly prudish, I don't work in a convent, and I'm not easily offended. I don't want or expect the forums to be some sort of overly censored police state, I just don't want adult images posted here. We need to agree on a set of conventions and the easiest and most widely known I know of is "safe for work."

I can happily agree to not be overly zealous in image moderation if we can all agree on the convention and cease this non-constructive arguing.


I actually commented on your NWS link policy twice in different threads, and gave feedback suggesting various ideas but you never responded to any of it.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Thu May 08, 2008 11:27 pm

I'm sorry - I missed your questions in that other thread. I just found them and replied.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Sarvis » Thu May 08, 2008 11:29 pm

Shevarash wrote:Sure, I could just turn off image posting altogether but I'd rather not have to limit the forums that way.


Uh-huh.

The normal dividing line for NSFW is nudity, you're censoring stuff that can be seen anywhere.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri May 09, 2008 12:57 am

Llaaldara wrote:Because from my perspective, there is no safe for work imagery. If you have crazy pics up on your computer, good or bad, it clearly shows the same thing: You are not working.


Quite a few of us are allowed to use work computers for personal stuff. Some of us are at work so much that we have to.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Fri May 09, 2008 1:29 am

Shevarash wrote:These forums have rarely been NSFW and the need to moderate such images doesn't arise very often. I've proposed in other threads the option of posting such content as a link with an NSFW tag and I still haven't really gotten any feedback on that.

Sure, I could just turn off image posting altogether but I'd rather not have to limit the forums that way. I'm not overly prudish, I don't work in a convent, and I'm not easily offended. I don't want or expect the forums to be some sort of overly censored police state, I just don't want adult images posted here. We need to agree on a set of conventions and the easiest and most widely known I know of is "safe for work."

I can happily agree to not be overly zealous in image moderation if we can all agree on the convention and cease this non-constructive arguing.


Well, I guess the next step would be to get a good idea of what would be considered NSFW. The most questionable call recently was that bikini girls were NSFW. Is this your stance or was there a certain aspect of the pictures that you found to be too risque -- such as bouncing titties? It'd be good if we had a more clear understand of what was to be linked with a NSFW tag and what can be directly linked w/o worry.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Fri May 09, 2008 1:35 am

Or just give us a forum with a strict no nudity rule, and let everything else fly. You could even make it an 18+ forum that requires authorization to get into, because adults do play this family-oriented game.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Fri May 09, 2008 1:37 am

Gormal wrote:Or just give us a forum with a strict no nudity rule, and let everything else fly. You could even make it an 18+ forum that requires authorization to get into, because adults do play this family-oriented game.


I would be 100% behind this idea. It would also solve the problem of new blood looking at the forums and saying "wtf" -- or whatever that lame excuse someone said in one of those posts.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Ambar » Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 am

How about you just use common sense? There is art and there is porn. That *art* thread is laughable at best, how many art enthusiasts did we have before the BBS upgrade? None I'd bet. As many in game issues as I have with Teyaha, nothing he posted with his pictures was pornographic at all. They were beautiful women photographed to display their beauty and yes in some way sex appeal, all artfully done. What Gormal posted was trash. Argue all you want, it was trash. It wasnt merely women in bikinis, it was soft porn. Yes you can find it anywhere but most of corporate America has surf control programs that disallow anything of that nature to be viewed at work, should it fall thru those controls, common sense should take over. Not to mention harassment suits, etc. Not sure who in professional America would risk that sort of attention. It all could have been avoided with a NSFW tag for crying out loud!

Just a comment here, but I am a member of each of the major guild BBS' and never have I seen anything like that posted on any of those forums. I have seen lewd and crude FUNNY jokes, but never images like that. My guess is you wouldn't disrespect Lilithelle by trashing her BBS .. Offer Shev and Shar and their staff the same respect.

Shev has stated several times he'd be amenable to a NSFW tag and a LINK .. what is so difficult about that? That gives people the option to go view the link as they desire and the rest of us to not have it shoved in our faces. Not every person finds surgically enhanced women appealing, I will never understand why it is considered so sexy by so many, personally I think it is trashy and gross. If anyone even says I am a prude they simply do NOT know me, heh However, I do know how and when things are appropriate, maybe that is something you acquire with age, maybe not. Hmm no, I felt the same way at 20 and 30 as I do now.

Gormal states several people he has talked to say they arent bothered by the BBS, how many people has he NOT talked to that ARE offended by it? I'd say lots. Think about why those people may not care what is posted.. No kids, no job responsibilities, various other reasons. It is past time to grow up, keep the locker room behavior where it belongs. Moderate yourselves, don't make Shev and Shar moderate it for you. Less time dealing with bullcrap BBS stuff leaves more time to deal with the MUD. Say what you want, there is some sentiment that anyone who agress with the staff is kissing their butt .. um No .. If I disagreed with something I'd say it in aan adult manner (unless provoked, we all get pretty dumb when provoked)

I have heard time and again how the MUD is NSFW but it is text if anyone has forgotten, much less likely to catch someoene's unwanted attention with text than with in-your-face pictures. If there was a marked NSF thread, I'd simply avoid it, view it when alone and no children present and definitely not at work! Just give us that opportunity! Hell IIRC, even the Maxler thread had a NSFW tag but I am probably wrong and may have viewed it the first time at home then avoided it at work.

By the way I hate the vend-a-goat thing, I am pretty sure Gormal is sick to friggin death of the lame joke, I wish we could let it die :(
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Fri May 09, 2008 3:23 am

Ambar, you do understand that what you deem crude, art, acceptable are personal values, right? To think that surgically altered women are trashy and gross is a value judgement that you obviously acknowledge -- but in acknowledging just that, you eliminate any weight you may have had within your post. Some people see a surgically altered woman as a work of art the same way that I may find picaso to be art and others would see him as no better than a 3yr old that doesn't understand anatomy.

The point of the entire discussion is to generate a more substantial guidline for us posters so that we don't constantly get our threads/posts deleted or get warnings. The fact that you find this to be a common sense issue, just like before, will eliminate most people having this discussion to completely ignore any points that you may have made -- mainly because such a statement only shows a complete missing of the point. Common sense is by no means something that should describe knowledge of the subjective. Gravity is common sense. Not walking in front of a moving bus is common sense. Knowing the "dos and don'ts" of a highly eratic, spontanious, and subjective police-force is, on the contrary, not common sense. YOU find animated gifs of bouncing tits offensive or lude. I, however, do not. I find them entertaining. YOU find Teyaha's pictures to be "art" while I see them as half-naked chicks that are no different from and in the same category of the bouncing tits gif. To drive this point home, is your boss going to feel any different if he catches you looking at an post of bouncing titty gifs, SI swimsuit edition, or Teyaha's post? No, he wont differentiate between them at all -- in the slightest. So, to say that posting under these unwritten guidlines is common sense, is, by all means, quite the opposite.

I like you ambar and I miss my mikey even though he traded away my baby kanjari, but posts like these are highly offensive and contribute very little to a discussion where we are actually trying to communicate in a mature way (in relation to previous threads) to the moderaters in order to pin-point the guidlines and come to some sort of understanding. In short, we are trying to compromise and understand and you are shitting on us for it. Why?

In summary, posting tits is bad form and trashy for you; posting tits is great, funny, and sometimes arousing for me. You dislike it. I like it. You find it offensive. I find it completely fine. I could easily argue that it is common sense that these types of "soft core porn" pictures are ok to post while you obviously disagree. Nobody here is directly linking pictures to Lemonparty.org or directly linking to two girls and a cup. While it is, imo, more funny than rickrolling, I have never, nor has anybody else, done so.

Lastly, while there hasn't been a consensus as to whether people are fine with just linking NSFW material with a tag, I'm sure most would be fine with this; HOWEVER, we are trying to figure out what is NSFW and what isn't. I.e. What we are mandated to link and what we are not; whether we have to tag something or not. Also, we have yet to be told whether or not we are allowed to NSFW tag entire threads and directly link instead of regularly link to things w/o the NSFW tag having to be used within the thread itself. These are important things that need to be covered before this topic will be or should be dropped. While you may not care because you don't post these types of things, a lot of us that are the most active on this particular sub-forum DO care greatly about this topic and feel that we have just had a good portion of our freedom taken away from us. And a portion of our enjoyment out of these forums is in what we have been recently deprived of. So, again, we really could care less what you think on this matter because it doesn't concern you insafar as posting goes. I do, however, understand your concern for looking at such material and I respect that; however, I think there is a way to keep both factions happy and your post is not looking for that telos because you already have what you want -- which is selfish.

P.S.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, we weren't appreciating art. And some of us (corth) copy/pasted that stuff from wiki :) I think the thread's purpose was to show the subjective nature of moderation and how context in regards to NSFW material is negligable (refer to paragraph 2).
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Fri May 09, 2008 4:04 am

It really strikes me that the people who most strongly object to what they consider questionable content, are mostly the ones who don't visit other forums. Comparing Toril's BBS to the guild boards is silly, because those have absolutely no content. Besides, why post funny stuff on a guild board when you can just post it here and have a much larger audience. I don't buy the line that your families are so impressionable that they won't survive a glimpse of a woman in a bikini, and if you really believe that then you're incredibly naive and ignorant of reality.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Teyaha » Fri May 09, 2008 4:50 am

OTHER forums with less stringent rules require at least registering to even see them.

this board is open

and to be fair, i never linked anything with bikinis and the links no longer work
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Sarvis » Fri May 09, 2008 4:59 am

Teyaha wrote:OTHER forums with less stringent rules require at least registering to even see them.



http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comment ... nk=3591401

No registration required. Two photos in thread that would be considered NSFW on these forums.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Teyaha » Fri May 09, 2008 5:18 am

you got me there. never visited fark before
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Fri May 09, 2008 5:31 am

What boards require registration to view? What have we said about quoting certain people Sarvis?
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Fri May 09, 2008 6:29 am

Gormal wrote:What boards require registration to view? What have we said about quoting certain people Sarvis?


The only one I can think of is SomethingAwful.com, but it seems like a hit and miss sometimes. Sometimes I can view certain topics, but others require registration. But yeah, most forums don't require registration to view content and there are a lot nastier forums around than this one was. And contrary to what has been said of guild forums, every other game I've played, the guild forums have been some of the nastiest places on the web. I've been tricked into looking at old gay men, shit eating, and everything inbetween. Those have also been the more enjoyable communities I've been a part of; however, this is by far the longest lasting and the one I feel is most home to me, so...
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Teyaha » Fri May 09, 2008 9:44 am

in terms of nastiness, eq2flames.com is pretty bad

however, they still dont allow many types of images to be linked.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Ambar » Fri May 09, 2008 10:51 am

Honestly if you didn't get my sarcasm when I stated that art thread is *laughable* at best, I can't help you. It was pretty clear what I meant. I find it funny that you'd even think I don't *get* it. I have raised two kids, I had 140+ 18-21 year olds working for me. If you think I am naive, yeah .. um no :) We all have our own opinion why that link was started, I believe it was someone trying to see what they could get away with.

NSFW is a gray area, common sense usage must prevail. If you think it might be NSFW, link it as such. I do believe Shev stated he'd think about lifting the link ban. All I personally am asking is a NSFW tag. Hell I visit most of the links that have been posted so far, just when no kids are present and when not at work. Not sure what anyone but a few people do for a living anymore but only a few industries that I can think of would approve of any nudity .. at work. Once again, if it is questionable .. link it. Most people already do that anyway with questionable links.. It is not brain surgery nor rocket science.

I'd love for you to argue with your employer about what can be viewed and what can't. I'd love for anyone who employs people not to have an issue here. I don't care what the content is personally if it is linked.

I haven't seen one person ask you not to post what you like, they are asking you to be adult and responsible about it.

For the record I have been surf controlled while viewing FARK at work
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Fri May 09, 2008 11:33 am

Ambar wrote:Honestly if you didn't get my sarcasm when I stated that art thread is *laughable* at best, I can't help you. It was pretty clear what I meant. I find it funny that you'd even think I don't *get* it. I have raised two kids, I had 140+ 18-21 year olds working for me. If you think I am naive, yeah .. um no :) We all have our own opinion why that link was started, I believe it was someone trying to see what they could get away with.

NSFW is a gray area, common sense usage must prevail. If you think it might be NSFW, link it as such. I do believe Shev stated he'd think about lifting the link ban. All I personally am asking is a NSFW tag. Hell I visit most of the links that have been posted so far, just when no kids are present and when not at work. Not sure what anyone but a few people do for a living anymore but only a few industries that I can think of would approve of any nudity .. at work. Once again, if it is questionable .. link it. Most people already do that anyway with questionable links.. It is not brain surgery nor rocket science.

I'd love for you to argue with your employer about what can be viewed and what can't. I'd love for anyone who employs people not to have an issue here. I don't care what the content is personally if it is linked.

I haven't seen one person ask you not to post what you like, they are asking you to be adult and responsible about it.

For the record I have been surf controlled while viewing FARK at work


Ok, obviously you are missing the point, and I hope Shev isn't. The point is "questionable" is different for many many many many many many many many many many many many many many people. In short it is subjective. If you don't know the word, look it up. Many of us didn't think Gormal's celebration thread was questionable -- many. Questionable, as I stated in my previous post is subjective. I'm going to keep trying to repeat this as much as possible so maybe it might sink in -- subjective. What we had thought was SFW material turned out to be filed under NSFW in Shev's mind. I still don't understand what was NSFW about that stuff. Then again, questionability is subjective. So with the idea of subjectivity in mind, what people are asking for is a better understanding of what should and should not be filed under NSFW because, apparently, the subjective nature of the idea of NSFW is not common sense. If it were, we would not be having this debate nor would the last few weeks of bitchiness have happened.

So, if you've followed up until this point you will notice that this has nothing at all, nothing whatsoever, to do with the idea of linking NSFW material -- it is what is considered NSFW.

Keep in mind, this idea of subjectivity is grounded on the principle that not everybody has the same ethical and moral standards as you do; therefore, not everybody will agree with you in the area of what is questionable material. In short, the idea of something being questionable is (say it with me now) subjective.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby ssar » Fri May 09, 2008 12:19 pm

Next time you try to look hot, flush the toilet.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Fri May 09, 2008 1:52 pm

Kifle wrote:The only one I can think of is SomethingAwful.com, but it seems like a hit and miss sometimes. Sometimes I can view certain topics, but others require registration. But yeah, most forums don't require registration to view content and there are a lot nastier forums around than this one was. And contrary to what has been said of guild forums, every other game I've played, the guild forums have been some of the nastiest places on the web. I've been tricked into looking at old gay men, shit eating, and everything inbetween. Those have also been the more enjoyable communities I've been a part of; however, this is by far the longest lasting and the one I feel is most home to me, so...


SA only has certain subforums restricted to members now, but all main forums are open to the public again as of almost a year ago I think. I don't see a valid reason why there can't be a controlled board for grownups even if this is a carebear family mud. I don't buy the public image thing thats been brought up before either, since if newcomers actually browse the main site, they're going to find some pretty glaring issues that affect the actual game fairly easily.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Fri May 09, 2008 7:11 pm

Gormal wrote:
Kifle wrote:The only one I can think of is SomethingAwful.com, but it seems like a hit and miss sometimes. Sometimes I can view certain topics, but others require registration. But yeah, most forums don't require registration to view content and there are a lot nastier forums around than this one was. And contrary to what has been said of guild forums, every other game I've played, the guild forums have been some of the nastiest places on the web. I've been tricked into looking at old gay men, shit eating, and everything inbetween. Those have also been the more enjoyable communities I've been a part of; however, this is by far the longest lasting and the one I feel is most home to me, so...


SA only has certain subforums restricted to members now, but all main forums are open to the public again as of almost a year ago I think. I don't see a valid reason why there can't be a controlled board for grownups even if this is a carebear family mud. I don't buy the public image thing thats been brought up before either, since if newcomers actually browse the main site, they're going to find some pretty glaring issues that affect the actual game fairly easily.


I wholeheartedly agree, man. I haven't tried to check the SA formus for a while though, so... It'd probably be a good idea to sign up though. They look like a nice community.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Botef » Fri May 09, 2008 8:35 pm

Ironically the youthful, underage bbs viewers are also the ones who tend to post moderation-worthy NSFW stuff on bbs' to begin with. Just look at the underage mmorpg players out there, they are way more immature and post considerably more offensive material than I BILD COMPEWTERS, infact they'd probably find that shit down right boring. Lets get real, its 2008, just about anyone old enough to be playing a mud and using the internet has seen far greater things than a women in a bikini or a man in his underwear. Heck all it takes to get that is a google search. This isn't AOL lol.

Oh well, I guess this just means there will be that much less to peruse on the bbs. It was bad enough that the majority of content here before was in the form of complaints and flames. Now that appears to be all that is left.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Mon May 12, 2008 7:58 am

Any word from the moderators or do we have to post a lady in a bikini or start a flame war before this gets looked at? There's a few things that have been mentioned that would be nice if they were cleared up. I don't think this is a problem that will just go away on its own if that's what you were hoping for.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Mon May 12, 2008 1:09 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Sure, I could just turn off image posting altogether but I'd rather not have to limit the forums that way.


Uh-huh.

The normal dividing line for NSFW is nudity, you're censoring stuff that can be seen anywhere.


First of all, your tone is continually rude in this discussion. Try to be constructive.

Second, I've only "censored" three images to date.

1) The Maxler builds compewters picture: I removed this because it's close to the NSFW line but mostly because I think Maxler finds it offensive and I didn't want to start this new forum off on the same tradition of mocking and flaming somebody. I admitted already that I may have been in error removing this image, but it was with good intentions.

2) Gormal's 3000th post thread: I removed this because a few of the images within were definitely NSFW. It had nothing to do with the PG rated bikini pictures.

3) Corth's picture: This image didn't have nudity per se, but it's still pretty nasty. You could make an argument that it's allowable, but you could also argue that such a display of genitalia is crossing over into NSFW territory. You could also argue that I was trying to make a point.

Just wanted to clear that up, as some people here seem to be attacking for the sake of argument.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Mon May 12, 2008 1:15 pm

Kifle wrote:Well, I guess the next step would be to get a good idea of what would be considered NSFW. The most questionable call recently was that bikini girls were NSFW. Is this your stance or was there a certain aspect of the pictures that you found to be too risque -- such as bouncing titties? It'd be good if we had a more clear understand of what was to be linked with a NSFW tag and what can be directly linked w/o worry.


This really should be common sense, you're all experienced netizens. Gormal's post was not removed because of the girls in bikinis, it was the other more suggestive pictures and I'm sure he knows which ones I mean.

Pictures with nudity are obviously against the rules, but there are other ways to cross the line without explicit nudity. You're all adults, and I'm pretty sure you know what's appropriate for a "family" setting. If you have a picture to post and you're not sure if it's appropriate or not, post a link to it instead and tag it as possibly NSFW. It's that simple.

I hope that helps clear up the confusion.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Ragorn » Mon May 12, 2008 1:18 pm

Shevarash wrote:This really should be common sense, you're all experienced netizens. Gormal's post was not removed because of the girls in bikinis, it was the other more suggestive pictures and I'm sure he knows which ones I mean.

Pictures with nudity are obviously against the rules, but there are other ways to cross the line without explicit nudity. You're all adults, and I'm pretty sure you know what's appropriate for a "family" setting. If you have a picture to post and you're not sure if it's appropriate or not, post a link to it instead and tag it as possibly NSFW. It's that simple.

I hope that helps clear up the confusion.

No, actually it just illustrates exactly why none of us have any idea what your policy is.

Don't assume we know what's appropriate. We're all experienced netizens, and that's WHY we're so confused. Large, work-friendly sites like Fark have a much looser NSFW policy than you do, and so you are contradicting our experience on most other internet sites.

Spell your policy out.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Mon May 12, 2008 1:19 pm

Gormal wrote:Or just give us a forum with a strict no nudity rule, and let everything else fly. You could even make it an 18+ forum that requires authorization to get into, because adults do play this family-oriented game.


I fully support your right to such a forum, but I'm not really interested in hosting or maintaining it. It's nothing personal, it's just not something that I feel Toril should be involved in. There are plenty of forums like that on the internet though.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Mon May 12, 2008 1:25 pm

Ragorn wrote:No, actually it just illustrates exactly why none of us have any idea what your policy is.

Don't assume we know what's appropriate. We're all experienced netizens, and that's WHY we're so confused. Large, work-friendly sites like Fark have a much looser NSFW policy than you do, and so you are contradicting our experience on most other internet sites.

Spell your policy out.


Sure.

Use common sense and don't post NSFW images. If you're not sure if it's NSFW, post a link to it with a warning.

I'm not going to attempt to spell out every possible type of image that could be considered inappropriate. Yes, sometimes my, Shar's, or Callarduran's judgement might differ from some other site's definition, but we will try to be as fair and evenhanded as possible.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Ragorn » Mon May 12, 2008 2:04 pm

Shevarash wrote:
Ragorn wrote:No, actually it just illustrates exactly why none of us have any idea what your policy is.

Don't assume we know what's appropriate. We're all experienced netizens, and that's WHY we're so confused. Large, work-friendly sites like Fark have a much looser NSFW policy than you do, and so you are contradicting our experience on most other internet sites.

Spell your policy out.


Sure.

Use common sense and don't post NSFW images. If you're not sure if it's NSFW, post a link to it with a warning.

I'm not going to attempt to spell out every possible type of image that could be considered inappropriate. Yes, sometimes my, Shar's, or Callarduran's judgement might differ from some other site's definition, but we will try to be as fair and evenhanded as possible.

Do you understand why this is frustrating to the point of being infurating now?

You have a policy.

You refuse to tell us what it is, instead preferring to assume that we can all guess.

You've been asked point blank to spell it out for us to eliminate the guesswork, and you have declined. Instead, you prefer to simply make snap decisions as incidents arise, reserving the right to make judgements without adhering to any kind of posted policy. Your policy is, in essence, that anything you deem unsuitable at that exact moment is against forum rules. That is why so many of us are annoyed... if you're going to make up rules, at least post them and stay consistent.

Tell us what the forum rules are, without using phrases like "you should know", "use common sense", and "safe for work."
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Mon May 12, 2008 3:10 pm

Ragorn, the rule is not to post nudity or other adult images. The "or" is there to protect us against things that are clearly NSFW but do not contain explicit nudity. These things are impossible to catalog and state explicitly, so I suggest that you use your common sense when posting images. We reserve the right to make a snap judgement about what does or doesn't constitute an adult image, though I have stated a pledge to be as reasonable and fair about it as possible.

If you have questions about whether specific content is allowable I would be happy to answer them. I think that would be more effective than me trying to come up with an example of every possible type of unacceptable image.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Pril » Mon May 12, 2008 3:26 pm

is this thread Safe for Work? I only ask because my company's firewall blocked it because it didn't pass the rating check.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Shevarash wrote:Gormal's post was not removed because of the girls in bikinis, it was the other more suggestive pictures and I'm sure he knows which ones I mean.

Pictures with nudity are obviously against the rules, but there are other ways to cross the line without explicit nudity. You're all adults, and I'm pretty sure you know what's appropriate for a "family" setting. If you have a picture to post and you're not sure if it's appropriate or not, post a link to it instead and tag it as possibly NSFW. It's that simple.

I hope that helps clear up the confusion.



At this point I think you're trying to cause more confusion. In my 3000 thread there's one image that is linked 4 times interspersed with Will Farell cowbell images. The rest are bikini pictures. We're talking about one image in an enormous thread and you shut it down and hope that we know the why. How fucking subjective is the Cuthbert picture anyway? Christ, your young innocent impressionable children wouldn't understand that its sexual anyway.

I can't believe that you really want this place to run like a Thanksgiving dinner at Grandma's. Its the internet for Christ's sake... but I guess ignoring your userbase and doing things your way has worked out well so far.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Shevarash » Mon May 12, 2008 5:26 pm

Gormal -

Your 3000 post wasn't appropriate for these forums because of the Cuthbert animation, which you seem to be aware was too suggestive for these forums as you keep mentioning it. I removed the whole thread because it was the easiest way of dealing with what kind of came off as a blatant middle-finger to the rules of this board. If you didn't mean it that way then I sincerely apologize. I realize that the handling of it was sub-optimal, and that why I've been trying to make the rules abundantly clear so we would avoid that kind of situation in the future. I am not trying to cause more confusion, and I really don't understand how you could get that impression.

Now, with all that said, here's where we currently stand on the rules of this forum:

No personal attacks.

No posting of inline images that contain nudity or adult material. Please use common sense when posting images and try not to post anything that would be out of line in a typical American work-place as a general guideline. If you have any questions about whether something is appropriate or not, please ask. You may post links to NSFW material - excluding pornography or illegal content - as long as they are labeled as NSFW.

I am open to continuing to discuss the two rules above. Note that the second one is not really finalized, as I'm trying to refine it with feedback from the community.

On a final note - it's pretty apparent that some of you have an issue with me personally, and I'd ask that you leave whatever that is out of this discussion. The confrontational attitudes and rudeness just aren't productive, and I can only take so much of it. Thanks in advance for your patience.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Mon May 12, 2008 6:06 pm

I find it extremely confusing how something that is merely suggestive is more offensive than a blatant tit-ripple. Its like you work for the MPAA.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Corth » Mon May 12, 2008 6:20 pm

To be fair to Shev, I don't think its possible to define the NSFW policy to the extent that he is being asked to. There is no way he could possibly anticipate every circumstance. I think the real issue here is that we have had no real policy in place for many years, and overall things have been quite smooth. All of a sudden there were a few high profile enforcement actions, some of them, as shev stated, to "make a point", and Shev is finding that the players resent it. If I were Shev, I would get rid of the 'forum rules', and just do what I used to do. Remove anything that is blatantly offensive in my opinion.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Gormal » Mon May 12, 2008 6:24 pm

Corth wrote:I think the real issue here is that we have had no real policy in place for many years, and overall things have been quite smooth... If I were Shev, I would get rid of the 'forum rules', and just do what I used to do. Remove anything that is blatantly offensive in my opinion.


Pretty blatant contradiction there, Corth. He used to do nothing.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Corth » Mon May 12, 2008 6:37 pm

If someone were to post x-rated material I am quite sure that it would be removed very quickly. Shev and the other immorts did not have much of a reason to delete posts on the basis of obscenity because very few such posts were made. The NSFW policy offends our sensibilities because its unnecessary and confusing. We flame each other quite a bit.. but posting obscene material.. there was very little of that. I don't think there were any great complaints about the old system, so its annoying that they are trying to formalize some sort of NSFW code. We shouldn't be asking Shev to better describe it. We should ask him to get rid of it and use his discretion once more.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Ragorn » Mon May 12, 2008 8:59 pm

Watch, here I go.

No images which contain the following:

- Nudity
- Large, prominently displayed curse words (words not found on basic cable)
- Sexually suggestive near-nudity ("underboob" or "tit ripple," as Gormal puts it)
- Scenes of excessive and graphic violence
- Portrayals of illicit behavior or substances, or of illegal activities
- Pictures designed specifically as personal attacks on forum members (goats, eye fix compewturs, spiders), if the offended forum member requests that such pictures be moderated

Look, it's really not that hard. The only thing people will quibble about is what "sexually suggestive" means. If Gormal posts a picture of a girl in a bikini walking on the beach, I don't expect it to be moderated. If someone posts a girl in a wet t-shirt jiggling her barely-covered tits, then yeah that's probably gotta go.

And Shev - I have no problem with you personally. I get annoyed when you're evasive about answering direct questions because you don't want to restrict yourself to a stated policy.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Kifle » Mon May 12, 2008 9:00 pm

Corth wrote:To be fair to Shev, I don't think its possible to define the NSFW policy to the extent that he is being asked to. There is no way he could possibly anticipate every circumstance. I think the real issue here is that we have had no real policy in place for many years, and overall things have been quite smooth. All of a sudden there were a few high profile enforcement actions, some of them, as shev stated, to "make a point", and Shev is finding that the players resent it. If I were Shev, I would get rid of the 'forum rules', and just do what I used to do. Remove anything that is blatantly offensive in my opinion.


I agree; however, like Ragorn said, these answerws only add confusion because this forum sometimes goes against our sensibilities. For instance: the cuthbert image. I'm on the fence about that. I honestly don't see how it is NSFW, and I don't see how it would be understood by anyone under the age of 12 (who probably already look at porn) or so. What else was so offensive or NSFW in that thread? A direct question I would like answered would be: Where the bouncing titty gifs filed under disallowed material? Would they be allowed in a humerous context (the tits are bouncing off some guys face and giving him a black eye or something)?

Lastly, the art thread was full of nudity and gigantic dongs... Are we to assume that if the nudity is in the proper context, it will be allowed? Lets say, if I started a thread about primitive African tribes, would I be allowed to post pictures of National Geographic tits? The question then becomes, is your boss really going to care what context the pictures are in? Do they usually? These, Shev, are the questions that I would like answered if you could please.
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Re: NSFW Policy - Complaint

Postby Llaaldara » Tue May 13, 2008 12:29 am

Shevarash wrote: but it was with good intentions.


See, I honestly believe you are trying to improve things. I really do. I don't really believe that you are slowly trying to drive away the people of this forum that continually insult you. To a degree, you might feel "well if they do leave, then we'll be better off" to some extent, but I don't believe you are instituting this policy to purposely drive people away by decreasing their interest.

Instead, I do believe you have good intentions, because after 4 years of hearing them bitch, you still have the mud and site up. That to me shows sincere dedication, and I honestly applaud you for it. But..

Yes there is naturally a 'but'.

But I believe you are missing your target audience with your decisions. As what most of the argumentative posters who harass you with here, is not your intentions, but your application of said intention. You've got a group here that loves to nitpick things to death; debate forever; beat a dead horse until it rots, clone it, kill it, and beat it again till it rots 1,000 times. They simply love to continually harp on your mistakes.

So... why make a policy that is based on 'common sense', aka a judgement call, aka prone to possible error? As you yourself have half-admitted, you could of made a mistake. So make a simple policy decision that removes the possibility for error, and get these people to STFU about it.

Links only. Problem solved. Period.

Stop wasting time with needing to make judgement calls. I can derive the same humor/revulsion/wutever from a gormal image littered post here, as I can to him linking it to another site. My suggestion 2 was to help the staff receive more respectable responses on game matters, because you the staff have recently, with their newfound behavior on the forums, tried to receive this type of response by leading by example. I see what you are trying to do, and wish you the best of luck with it, sincerely.

I just don't see why you don't just go, "In general adhere to the forum rules, in Gameplay and other MUD based forums, aside from rule adherence address staff members in a respectable manner if you have a serious topic of discussion, or have your post/thread deleted entirely. The staff is not responsible for reading or responding to any topic addressed to them in an inappropriate manner and or incorrect location on our forums. If you want a response from us, put it in the right place, and present it maturely, and we will." This is not being mean, it's being assertive. I don't want the staff to have to police the forums, and I don't want to see gameplay issues being bitched about constantly in general discussion by people who apparently can't get over crap from over 4 years ago.

I want to see legitimate give and take constructive feedback between players and staff members in the gameplay discussion. I want to see things addressed. I want the humor back in general discussion. I want the banter directed between players again and not at the staff. I want to see an assertive staff that isn't continually walked on by unhappy former players who have nothing better to do with their time then vent on people for doing a job they didn't have the guts or balls to stand up and do themselves. It doesn't take much money or effort to setup and run a MUD, or acquire an old one and re-establish it. The hard part is in maintaining it and keeping people's interest in it year after year.

I'd like to see the people who continually harp on Shev and the staff's direction, put up their own MUD and site. I'm sure Kris would give you an old copy, and I believe he made it free souce at one point. If not, STFU about it already. It's not just Toril that's dying. It's all MUDs. Thanks to broadband and MMORPG's. 10 Million people playing World of Warcraft the last 4 years sure hasn't helped the MUD populace.

That's for damn sure.

My moral summary:
1) Stop setting yourself up for failure.
2) Unless you're going to do it yourself, stop harping on others for how they do it.
3) If you're still unhappy about something from 4 YEARS AGO, seek therapy.

For 15 bucks a month, you could run a crappier MUD and a free forum site, or you could play an MMORPG. For free you can play a text based game from an underpowered 10-15 yr old Mac or PC anywhere there is an internet connection.

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