Oil and what really scares me

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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:16 pm

Inflation thats a good one I wasn't considering and exchange rate as well now that I think about it. With the production cuts, I'm sure they are cutting the oil that costs them the most to produce (like the ones using all the methods you noted). The average cost of producing oil should go down as the supply cuts occur... at least temporarily.

There is a company that lets you buy gasoline futures for things like your automobile.

I don't know that its a good idea unless you have cash burning a hole in your pocket and you believe oil is going to go back up in the short term. If you don't have cash, your paying interest. If the recession lasts more than 6 months, you could see some unbelievable demand destruction which could keep low pricese here for a couple of years.

Very hard to say, but I don't know for sure that Oil is headed for a rebound in 2009. Then again, its probably not likely to hit or stay at $30 a barrel. I'm not quite as bullish as Corth over the mid term as I think so called green energy and new drilling will weigh on the market.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:22 pm

Green energy will not do anything for transportation uses, which accounts for something like 70% of oil use. New drilling.. not so much. All the big finds are found.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Kifle » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:53 am

Corth wrote:All the big finds are found.


Isn't that what they said about Newtonian physics? You're a lawyer, not God :)
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:27 pm

Corth wrote:Green energy will not do anything for transportation uses, which accounts for something like 70% of oil use. New drilling.. not so much. All the big finds are found.


Why wouldn't green energy do anything for transportation? We do have the technology for electric cars you know...
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:19 pm

Good news, buddy of mine at the DOE tells me that we're going to be looking at two bucks a gallon. From there, "who knows?"
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:51 pm

Sarvis,

The vast amount of electricity comes from, guess what, burning natural gas and coal, which itself is scarce and in the case of coal, not particularly green. In order for solar or wind to make a noticable impact in electricity production and substantially reduce the burden of gasoline on transportation, we would need a 'manhattan project' style social movement. Imho, if the taxpayers are going to pay 700 billion for anything, perhaps this is what it should be spent on.

Kifle,

You got me. I can't possibly know what remains under the surface. I'm basically parroting what Matthew Simmons said in "Twilight in the Dessert. He points out that no really world class discoveries have been made in like 30-40 years, despite enormous efforts to find more oil. Its kind of like an easter egg hunt. You find the really easy ones right away, and then it gets more and more difficult to find the remaining ones. In this case though, the chances are that the remaining ones are small and not as good, as the big ones were easier to find in the first place.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:46 pm

U.S. light crude oil for December delivery fell 77 cents to settle at a 21-month low of $53.26 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It was the lowest closing price since January 22, 2007 when oil settled at $51.13 a barrel.

As late as 2 years ago, oil companies were able to be profitable at $50 a barrel. Now Most of the oil producing countries of the world can't balance their budget without oil > $70. The bureacracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureacracy
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:18 pm

I'm not sure about that statistic. A lot of oil, I believe, can still be produced significantly cheaper than $70 or even $50 per barrel. I'm thinking more in the single digits. Canadian oil sands production is notoriously expensive, and even there the companies are profitable at $60 oil. Of course, a lot of smaller producers (tons of them in texas) might not be profitable at current oil prices. You have basically used up wells that manage to produce a few dozen barrels a day. It might be worth producing from these wells when oil is $150, but perhaps not now. Basically, what this implies is that there will be some marginal reduction in supply to the extent that certain oil producers cannot profitably operate with oil at its current price. That will tend to increase the price of oil as supply decreases... until of course supply increases again due to the price increase.

Overall, the long term trend is that supply will be decreasing for years to come regardless of the price of oil, as the world has likely hit its 'peak oil' production, or soon will, due to depletion of existing wells. Combined with increasing demand as the world economy improves, and oil will eventually be much more expensive than most people would ever expect.
Last edited by Corth on Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:07 pm

I basically agree with your long term prognosis unless Obama pulls a magic green energy wand out of his ass.

I'm just wondering if there is substance to the wild claim on CNN that average production costs per barrel of oil are now $50.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:03 pm

avak wrote:Oh, I was just laughing to myself about prices not falling "far" below $3/gal. I'm wondering if maybe you meant far below $2.00 seeing as how I filled up at $1.95 this morning. I can understand the sentiment that it takes time for the market to move...prices have dropped roughly 40% in less than two months.


I filled up for $1.75 yesterday. I grossly underestimated what a global downturn would do to demand for automotive fuel in the rest of the world. Now all the oil producers have nowhere to sell and suddenly must bring their product back to the United States.

Avak, I try to estimate on the safe side, one reason why I believed gas would stay high. I'd rather assume it stayed at $3 than bet on $1 as a gasoline consumer.

avak wrote:Now I can see how you have a 401k plan performing "30-40%" better than mine. Which is confusing since I don't remember sharing that info with anyone. In fact, I don't even have a 401k; I have privately held businesses. But hey, who's keeping track when you're arguing over ambiguous platitudes, unsubstantiated claims and made up data.


You're the only one who would complain about a point made indirectly. (other than Sarvis, but he would actually be serious about it) I _am_ doing 40% better than the average American's 401k, if that clarifies the point I was making to your satisfaction.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby avak » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:45 pm

Tom Kloza, publisher and chief oil analyst at Oil Price Information Service, said Thursday on his blog that retail prices could fetch $1.25 a gallon soon in parts of the Midwest, including Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Missouri.

Already, some parts of the country are seeing prices around that level. The Web site gasbuddy.com, where motorists can post local gas prices, motorists can fill up for $1.29 in Neelyville, Mo., a village of about 500 people near the Arkansas state line.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:13 pm

avak wrote:
Tom Kloza, publisher and chief oil analyst at Oil Price Information Service, said Thursday on his blog that retail prices could fetch $1.25 a gallon soon in parts of the Midwest, including Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Missouri.

Already, some parts of the country are seeing prices around that level. The Web site gasbuddy.com, where motorists can post local gas prices, motorists can fill up for $1.29 in Neelyville, Mo., a village of about 500 people near the Arkansas state line.



Gas is still over $2/gallon in my area...
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:20 pm

Sarvis and I need to thank the wizard who is magically making gasoline prices fall.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby avak » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:51 pm

Thank the disappearance of speculators...from oil markets...and all markets, for that matter. I realize that is not entirely true, but please don't chalk plummeting gas prices up to decreased demand only.

Anyone think these gas prices will help rekindle the economy like some pundits are suggesting? Obviously it helps, but to what extent is unclear to me.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:54 pm

Oh man we have like 100 posts on this thread on whether or not speculation can drive up asset prices. Lets not go there again!

Most of it WAS a decrease in demand due to to weakening economy, combined with supply increases as producers were trying to sell as much as possible at high prices.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:56 pm

Corth wrote:Sarvis and I need to thank the wizard who is magically making gasoline prices fall.


Err... did you misread my post, or am I missing something?

Prices aren't falling around here... I'll thank the wizard when he actually does something. :P
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:56 pm

gasoline prices didn't fall in Buffalo, huh? That must be a magical place too!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:01 pm

Gas price weather map

Buffalo really IS expensive relatively speaking. Turns out its a NYS thing. Government, not big oil, taking its extra chunk.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:45 am

Global demand for automotive gas is way down, thanks in part to the global economic downturn. We should be so fortunate to have the world economy 'collapse' every once in a while. (oh no, great depression, just like Iraq was Vietnam, and Obama's going to change everythi-stop exaggerating.)

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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Tasan » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:33 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Global demand for automotive gas is way down, thanks in part to the global economic downturn. We should be so fortunate to have the world economy 'collapse' every once in a while. (oh no, great depression, just like Iraq was Vietnam, and Obama's going to change everythi-stop exaggerating.)

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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Ragorn » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:30 pm

New York has insanely high state taxes on gas, cigarettes, booze, and other items of that nature. A pack of smokes runs $7.50 in rural NY.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:39 pm

Ragorn wrote:New York has insanely high state taxes on gas, cigarettes, booze, and other items of that nature. A pack of smokes runs $7.50 in rural NY.


Gas, cigarrettes and booze are in the same category for you? What do you do with your gas? :?
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:47 am

Sarvis wrote:Gas, cigarrettes and booze are in the same category for you? What do you do with your gas? :?

Tax it?

It's a consumption tax.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:13 am

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Gas, cigarrettes and booze are in the same category for you? What do you do with your gas? :?

Tax it?

It's a consumption tax.


Cigarrettes and booze are considered sin taxes...
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:54 am

Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Gas, cigarrettes and booze are in the same category for you? What do you do with your gas? :?

Tax it?

It's a consumption tax.


Cigarrettes and booze are considered sin taxes...

Are you trying to start an argument or a debate over this?

If so, why?
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:02 am

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Gas, cigarrettes and booze are in the same category for you? What do you do with your gas? :?

Tax it?

It's a consumption tax.


Cigarrettes and booze are considered sin taxes...

Are you trying to start an argument or a debate over this?

If so, why?


No, not really.. I was just amused, and you seemed to not understand what I meant.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Lathander » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:54 am

Sarvis,

Don't environmentalists think using gas is a sin, ie the sin tax?
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby avak » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:25 pm

So, I have been paying attention to the correlation between crude prices and the price at the pump.

Obviously, crude has fallen substantially and so has gas. What is more interesting is the timing. There are a lot of arguments for the lag(s), but it is becoming increasingly obvious that the real lag is on the price falling. For example, crude has been falling fairly precipitously for awhile, but gas is dropping pretty slowly. In my area, we got down to $1.51 in the last few weeks. Then, I think it was Friday perhaps...crude rallies. Sure as shit, the prices at the pump jump 14 cents overnight. LOL, I am so sure that the effects of the futures market were felt that fast. Anyway, just an observation.

I read a BBC article about the OPEC cuts. One interesting fact was a hard number on petrol demand.

Oil prices fell following the agreement, because weekly US inventories figures provided further evidence that motorists were cutting back on their consumption.

Demand for petrol in the four weeks to 12 December was down 2.7% from the same period last year.


Huh, 2.7% is not very much.

BBC Article
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:31 pm

A small change in demand (or supply for that matter) can have a much larger effect on the price of the commodity if it is relatively inelastic. When there is less supply than demand for a commodity some of that demand has to be 'destroyed'. If its an inelastic commodity that everyone pretty much needs regardless of price, and there aren't any viable alternatives to it, then demand destruction will occur at much higher prices. On the other hand, if its more of a luxury, or something with other alternatives, then demand destruction will occur at lower prices. A small shift in demand can cause a shortage, and expensive demand destruction.

In this case, in addition to a demand decrease of about 3%, you have supply increases as well as all the producers ramped things up when prices were high. You can now expect in a month or two to see serious supply decreases as the cost of production actually exceeds the market price for a lot of produers. This will drive prices back up.

By the way, I think it stands to reason that prices are more 'sticky' on the way down. Everyone wants to make more money. If they could keep prices up high indefinitely they would be happy. Unfortunately, some other gas station down the block decides it wants to get all the business so it lowers prices a few cents and then your gas station is forced to follow. Nonetheless, as you can see (to the great surprise of Sarvis), such competition did serve to bring gasoline prices down, and it didn't take too long either. Just a few months ago gasoline was close to or above $4.00 a gallon.

On the way up though, the price change is immediate. If you are a wholesaler of gasoline and the spot price increased today, you are going to increase your price today.. why sell something cheaper than the market rate?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Lathander » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:15 pm

I just wanted to throw in that most people don't believe OPEC nations can cut production much. Other than Saudi Arabia, oil is their only source of hard currency. Cutting production would result in less money. This was a strategy that Reagan used very succesfully against the Soviets if you read the book, The Crusader: Ronald Reagan and the Fall of Communism. It is a great book for understanding international politics.

Most of the oil producers have already sold there income from oil forward by issuing bonds against it to fund projects. If anything, their economies look very, very fragile.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:48 pm

Corth wrote:Nonetheless, as you can see (to the great surprise of Sarvis), such competition did serve to bring gasoline prices down,


Except in my area, where I was right. :P
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Lathander » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:52 pm

what are gas prices in your area sarvis?
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:03 am

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Nonetheless, as you can see (to the great surprise of Sarvis), such competition did serve to bring gasoline prices down,


Except in my area, where I was right. :P

Really?

You still pay $4 a gallon?

Because here we're at $1.45.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:06 am

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Nonetheless, as you can see (to the great surprise of Sarvis), such competition did serve to bring gasoline prices down,


Except in my area, where I was right. :P

Really?

You still pay $4 a gallon?

Because here we're at $1.45.


Well, according to one of those pricewatch things I can get $1.85 at BJ's for being a member. There are some cheaper places, but they are all in the outlying areas of Buffalo... outlying as in the country, not the suburbs. The highest price is still $2.71! Guess all the free market competition hasn't gotten to that guy yet.


Interestingly, the station on Indian land (which doesn't have to pay taxes on gas) still charges $1.78, so I'm not even sure how much of the high prices can be blamed on taxes. Maybe $0.07 assuming BJ's pays taxes on gas?

So yes, it has come down. However the original statement was that it would still be above $2 for a while, and that's still true at a lot of gas stations in my area.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:37 am

Its a conspiracy to keep it above $2 :)

Never mind the magic that brought it down from $4.00!
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:51 am

Sarvis wrote:So yes, it has come down. However the original statement was that it would still be above $2 for a while, and that's still true at a lot of gas stations in my area.

That's a really long way to go for a moral victory.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:08 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:So yes, it has come down. However the original statement was that it would still be above $2 for a while, and that's still true at a lot of gas stations in my area.

That's a really long way to go for a moral victory.


More of a technically correct. :P
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:52 pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/ ... topStories

Michael Masters, a hedge fund manager who tracks the flow of investments in and out of markets, noticed huge amounts of money going from stocks and bonds into oil futures. He believes hedge funds and investment banks influenced those investors. "The investment banks facilitated it. They found folks to write papers espousing the benefits of investing in commodities," he tells Kroft. The promotion helped convince their clients that an investment in oil futures was an "asset class" investment like stocks or bonds says Masters.

Another article supporting my belief on oil speculation.

and for a history lesson, replace the words "stocks and bonds" with "Internet stocks" and "oil" with "Real Estate" and you have 2000/2001. Massive influx of capital to real estate products, lowering interest rates and driving up demand for more mortgage products, then a bursting of the bubble when people realized freetshirts.com has no business model, no revenue, and no assets. i mean a bursting of the bubble when people realized that someone who can't pay their visa bill on time and has no income can't pay back a loan even if its the house they live in.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Lathander » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:44 am

History lesson???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907

Nothing is ever truly completely different.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:48 am

I'm going to get you to link to 1929 before we're done with this.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:24 am

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/ ... ryHeadline

"Did China and India suddenly have gigantic needs for new oil products in a single day? No. Everybody agrees supply-demand could not drive the price up $25, which was a record increase in the price of oil. The price of oil went from somewhere in the 60s to $147 in less than a year. And we were being told, on that run-up, 'It's supply-demand, supply-demand, supply-demand,'" Greenberger said.

A recent report out of MIT, analyzing world oil production and consumption, also concluded that the basic fundamentals of supply and demand could not have been responsible for last year's run-up in oil prices. And Michael Masters says the U.S. Department of Energy's own statistics show that if the markets had been working properly, the price of oil should have been going down, not up.

I think I already quoted this article once.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:41 pm

It seems to me that speculation may have been responsible to some extent for the runup in the futures price (the paper oil market). Ultimately, as I've mentioned many times in this thread, the spot price will be where supply and demand control. The higher prices on the futures market caused a drastic increase in real production as oil producers took advantage of the high futures prices by selling 'paper oil' for future delivery. However, when all the real oil had to actually find a home, the refineries had all their supply needs met and there was a glut of remaining oil. The spot market caused the futures price to crash.

There is certainly a glut of oil right now, but you need to think more towards the future when considering an investment. I'm a big proponent of the 'peak oil' theory, and believe that over the long haul we will have insufficient supply of oil. I am also very concerned about the dollar, and would prefer to own real assets. I am also concerned that most oil supply comes from unstable regions.

Ultimately, I'm bullish on oil producers who will be taking oil out of the ground not just right now, but over the next 100 years. I want to own oil in the ground, not necessarily production today. Thus, I am especially bullish on smaller producers with enormous reserves (room for long term growth). I'm even more bullish on producers who will not be nationalized by a greedy short-sighted government (South america), not be subject to 'windfall profits taxes (US), and not become caught up in a war zone (middle east, africa).
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:35 pm

The analysts basically said throughout 2008, supply was rising while demand was falling.

Now of course supply was rising because you were getting $150 a barrel for it. You don't produce $75 a barrel oil if the market price is $30 a barrel.

I still agree in principle with you, but the mid and long term may be farther away than we are lead to believe by speculators, government agencies with an agenda and overly zealous environmentalists.

I'm starting to feel that we may have $30-50 a barrel oil for 3+ years where a month ago I figured $30 a barrel oil would be done by August and certainly by Jan 2010.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:03 pm

I think thats a reasonable conclusion. Thats what I am kind of debating internally as well. I believe strongly that energy will be the big story of the next 50 years. Over the next 3 years, I'm not so sure what will happen. I think its entirely possible to see much lower prices than what we have right now within the next couple of years.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:59 pm

You know I also wonder about how opportune this is. I mean Venuzela and Iran and Russia were getting pretty surly, and this rapid decline in oil prices sure knocked the wind out of their sails. You couldn't write a conspiracy that perfect. Let them think they are breaking out (china too) then sucker punch them and remind them who's their daddy. It was eye opening for me to see a lot of America's supposed friends and supposed allies position themselves to help kick us down the stairs.

What scares me though is Russia in particular saw what the world was willing to pay... and I doubt it will be inclined to subsist on low prices.

It makes me also think about Iran's supposed quest for peaceful nuclear power. It does seem like its prudent planning from their point of view.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:59 pm

http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/18/markets ... tm?cnn=yes

I don't get it. everything ive read since December says we have massive amounts of oil being stockpiled all over the world in tankers, that our main stockpiles in the US are close to being 100% full and yet this article seems to suggest the opposite...

anyone else following this?
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:11 pm

There was oversupply before. Now there isn't. Nothing out of the ordinary about that. OPEC cut production. Low prices and lack of capital caused many producers to stop drilling, and also to stop producing from marginal sources. Its exactly what would be expected to happen.

The cure for high commodity prices, as we saw, is high commodity prices. Tons of production went online and we had a glut. Likewise, the cure for low commodity prices, is in fact, low commodity prices. We saw a lot of production come offline and will soon have a shortage.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:27 pm

but what about all the oil being kept off the market artificially in tankers and storage? Is this fictious? I've been hearing and reading about it for 3 months.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:47 pm

From the wsj.

Economist Rachel Ziemba, of the New York research firm RGE Monitor, said that oil seems to be enjoying a bear-market bounce akin to the one that most traders interpret in the stock market's recent strength. She estimates that weak global demand due to the global economy's ills could yet push crude back near $30 before the recession is over.

well at least theres someone on the other side of that last position.

I still agree with you in the mid term Corth. Oil will be an absolute disaster within 2-3 years if there is any kind of a turn around this year... maybe despite the lack of a turn around. Oil prices this low will cause production to go offline and it takes time and money to spin it back up.
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Re: Oil and what really scares me

Postby Corth » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:32 am

I wouldn't be surprised if it crashes back down to $30 or less. If so, I will be buying. I only used up half my cash and I'd prefer to use all of it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.

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