VP picks

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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:58 am

Lathander wrote:Kifle, your comment claiming that Palin is a bad mother is one of those things that really gets to me. You don't see anyone say someone is a bad father. It's only women that get that label. That's exactly what I meant by claim that you are sexist.


You're kidding, right? "Deadbeat Dad" is a very well known term... and that's just the ones who won't pay alimony. There's abusive fathers, absentee dads, unsupportive dads...

Frankly, if people don't talk about "bad fathers" it's because so few expect there to be a good one!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:09 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Corth wrote:Zogby, which has been the most accurrate polling company in recent elections


wat

Image


A cherry-picked 'report card' of companies that released a poll for at least ONE of the first 7 presidential primaries in 2008 prepared by the company that is conveniently rated #1 on the list. Got a good guess that surveyusa.com was accurate within 1% on its first primary poll (the 7th primary overall) and immediately put out this 'report card'. I wonder how that 'report card' would look with say, all the presidential primaries of 2008, or all statewide elections over a more substantial period of time. I'm guessing that Surveyusa.com wouldn't look so great with such a 'report card', otherwise it would probably exist. Good job fact boy :) You can use the internet!
Last edited by Corth on Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:11 am

Rags,

The election is for President, not Vice President. Ever since the voting for Vice President was changed near the beginning of our country, the VP has not been very important. Look at all the wrecks that have been VP. The only one I know of that got tossed was the guy that admitted to getting shock therapy.

Another thing, if you look at Dems, you guys always have the better person at the bottom of the ticket. Look at Dukakis/Bentsen and Carter/Mondale. Even Clinton/Gore was similar; Dems usually have to bolster their street cred with the masses with their VP instead of the liberal fringe.

For Republicans, the VP slot is usually to appease the hardcore right. Reagan/Bush, Bush/Quayle, and G.W. Bush/Cheney were all VP nods to the right of the party.

Biden serves to give some weight to Obama in the experience area, plain and simple. Trouble is we don't elect a VP, we elect a President. Hell, if we elected VP's, Lloyd Bentsen would have won; he was very good. Also, Obama's ego didn't let him do what he should've done and bring Clinton on to his ticket. Beside the fact he is the most liberal person in the Senate, his hubris and anti-woman attitude will be his undoing in this race. I still think Obama will win the largest portion of the popular vote, but we could be seeing Obama peaking way too early.

For McCain, he had four main choices: Romney, Pawlenty, Ridge and Liberman. Admittingly, I voted for Romney in the primary as I don't particularly like McCain. That said, Romney would not be a great VP. His mormonism and fairly liberal to moderate stances in the past would not satisify the right. Pawlenty was too unknown and some called into question his Christian creditials. Ridge, while good, is pro-choice which would create a revolt to McCain on the floor of the convention. Finally, Liberman, who is a very good friend to McCain, would have been a disaster. You think the reaction to Ridge was bad, just imagine the battle over Liberman.

So McCain needed someone with executive experience, Christian cred, and fit within a reformer/maverick theme. Palin fits all those. She is a governor with alot of energy experience. She has run a small business. She has great credibility with the Christian right. She had a Downs baby when 9 out of 10 of them are aborted because she believes in the beauty of life. Finally, she is a strong woman, and Obama and the Dems just gambled with Hillary's 18 million voters. If McCain/Palin can just pull away 20 to 30% of Hillary's voters, it's game over.

That's how you win the electoral college. Just look at the map in the link I posted. McCain just needs to win 2 out of OH, PA, and MI and he's a shoe in. Even if McCain only wins one of those three, he is still very hard to beat. Personally, I think he will win OH and MI. And that is how you win in politics!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:26 am

Lathander wrote:Here's a link to an electoral map. See what numbers you get.

My prediction is 311 to 223 with the percentage being 48 (Obama) to 47 (McCain) in favor of McCain over Obama.


I have it 274 to 264 for the Republicans right now.. I'm giving the Dems Pennsylvania and Michigan. As of now it looks to be the same battleground as always. If the democrats can find a way to take Florida or Ohio they probably win.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:30 am

Lathander wrote:Kifle, your comment claiming that Palin is a bad mother is one of those things that really gets to me. You don't see anyone say someone is a bad father. It's only women that get that label. That's exactly what I meant by claim that you are sexist.


It only gets you because you're apparently too stupid to read. No offense, but saying somebody is a bad mother by conservative standards and their own standards is a fary cry from saying that I believe they are a bad mother. Shit, I'm 27 and have an 11yr old son. In no way do I figure my wife to be a bad mother, nor do I believe I'm a bad father. That's exactly what I meant by claiming you are stupid. Stop putting words in my mouth to dodge what I say or deflect the issue I'm bringing up. If you don't have a response that actually debates the merits of my statements rather than what you misinturpret (conveniently or not) as the merits, then don't bother replying. I did not enter into this conversation to be side-tracked by overzelous illiterates; I posted here because A) I believe the issues I bring up show a rather disturbing inconsistancy in GOP issues and beliefs and B) feel that my opinions stating the Palin nomination as being nothing more than political pandering rather than offering the country a viable choice for VP -- somebody who deserves the job based on a worthwhile resume.

I'm sorry if I am still of the ignorant few that believe the Presidency, and still, but less, important position of VP, should be filled by the most qualified person for the job -- not the one that can suck a mean dick during the interview (campaign). And to be quite honest, I think the Obama nomination was no better than the Palin, so this has nothing to do with my party affiliation, or lack thereof; it has everything to do with certain flaws in the system that, when so overtly shoved in the public's agregate face, they are either too stupid to realize they're eating a mound of shit, or they're too lazy or jaded to care.


As for your comments on the VP not being important; tell that to Mr. Ford and the other 8(?) VPs that took the presidency under other circumstances. With McCain having one foot in the grave already, I think the VP nomination should be rather important for the GOP ticket. You forget that while the VP may be virtually impotent in most matters, they are but one step away from being the most powerful person in the world (or close to it).

Edit: Anyone else find it funny that the same person that says nobody ever calls a man a bad father calls me sexist not a few breaths later?
Last edited by Kifle on Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:32 am

Corth wrote:I wonder how that 'report card' would look with say, all the presidential primaries of 2008, or all statewide elections over a more substantial period of time.


Image

I'm guessing that Surveyusa.com wouldn't look so great with such a 'report card', otherwise it would probably exist. Good job fact boy :) You can use the internet!


It still looks better than Zogby, "the most accurrate polling company in recent elections". Sorry spin boy. You obviously can't use the internet or you'd have clicked the image in my earlier post :)
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:38 am

Again, the sample size. This time its a little better.. all the primaries of 2008, as opposed to just one of the first 7 on your previous chart. Still a good example of cherry picking. Find me something over a longer term and we'll talk. Polling is an art, not a science. They are constantly adjusting their methodologies. There is a good reason you have heard of Zogby before and not Surveyusa.com. Over the long haul one of them has proven to be quite reliable, and the other.. you have never heard of.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:42 am

Corth wrote:Heh.. again, the sample size. This time its better.. all the primaries, as opposed to just one of the first 7 on your previous chart. Still a good example of cherry picking. Find me something over a longer term and we'll talk. Polling is an art, not a science. They are constantly adjusting their methodologies. There is a good reason you have heard of Zogby before and not Surveyusa.com. Over the long haul one of them has proven to be quite reliable, and the other.. you have never heard of.


I thought gallup was #1? I don't keep up on polling rankings very often -- I still have some semblance of a life :)
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:42 am

Image

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/l ... %20ratings

I can keep going, but this is getting pretty desperate from you, no? How about you just admit that Zogby really isn't #1? They aren't a client, are they?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:44 am

Following are our updated pollster ratings, accounting for the Democratic contests in North Carolina, Indiana, West Virgina, Kentucky and Oregon.


SAMPLE SIZE. If you want to cherry pick then you will always get the result you are looking for.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:46 am

Corth wrote:
Following are our updated pollster ratings, accounting for the Democratic contests in North Carolina, Indiana, West Virgina, Kentucky and Oregon.


SAMPLE SIZE. If you want to cherry pick then you will always get the result you are looking for.


Umm, do you know what "updated" means?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:50 am

Corth, are you contending that Zogby is better because they are more well known? Isn't that essentially Argument ad Populum?

Maybe Zogby is more well known because they advertise, or because they pay MSNBC to use their poll numbers to get their name out there.
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:23 am

Sample size? How about methodology? Look again at the two polls I quoted. One used listed phone numbers. Do we need to do the research on how skewed that result will be? The other used self-selected internet participants.

Besides, this is almost like looking at the primaries a year ago. We still haven't had debates, attack ads or voter turnout, etc. That's not to mention essentially no polling data since Palin came on the ticket.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:26 pm

Why would self-selected internet participants not be skewed?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:22 pm

Lathander wrote:Rags,

The election is for President, not Vice President. Ever since the voting for Vice President was changed near the beginning of our country, the VP has not been very important. Look at all the wrecks that have been VP. The only one I know of that got tossed was the guy that admitted to getting shock therapy.

Ahh, interesting. That's a tactic I hadn't even considered. Sure, your guy is relatively inexperienced and holds some radical views, but that's ok because the Vice President position isn't very important. I mean, it's not like the Senate is in danger of needing a tiebreak or anything, right? And the Vice President never weighs in on matters of policy, like energy or national security or immigration. And certainly, the Vice President is a relatively trivial position when you consider that your ticket is also nominating the oldest candidate in history, with a history of health problems.

No, it's cool. Palin isn't a very good pick, but she'll work because the VP job doesn't matter.

Another thing, if you look at Dems, you guys always have the better person at the bottom of the ticket. Look at Dukakis/Bentsen and Carter/Mondale. Even Clinton/Gore was similar; Dems usually have to bolster their street cred with the masses with their VP instead of the liberal fringe.

When the Dems put their featured candidate on the bottom of the ticket, they lose elections. Clinton/Gore was very much about Bill Clinton. Gore was influential on his own and had a lot of political sway during and after his tenure as VP, but the presidency was very much about the guy at the top. This election is similar... we're excited about Obama, and Biden was an excellent choice as VP to help round out some of Obama's deficiencies.

Biden serves to give some weight to Obama in the experience area, plain and simple. Trouble is we don't elect a VP, we elect a President. Hell, if we elected VP's, Lloyd Bentsen would have won; he was very good. Also, Obama's ego didn't let him do what he should've done and bring Clinton on to his ticket. Beside the fact he is the most liberal person in the Senate, his hubris and anti-woman attitude will be his undoing in this race. I still think Obama will win the largest portion of the popular vote, but we could be seeing Obama peaking way too early.

I don't think passing over Clinton had anything to do with Obama's ego. Clinton is a divisive figure within the Democratic party... even now, her supporters are threatening to cast spite votes for McCain because their candidate lost the nomination. And besides, she spent so long during the primary campaign slashing away at Obama that I can't imagine how she could come on board the ticket without essentially admitting that she was full of it. Obama made the right decision. Clinton might be a political powerhouse, but her campaign was ineffective and she made it all but impossible for herself to align with Obama at the end of it.

So McCain needed someone with executive experience, Christian cred, and fit within a reformer/maverick theme. Palin fits all those. She is a governor with alot of energy experience. She has run a small business. She has great credibility with the Christian right. She had a Downs baby when 9 out of 10 of them are aborted because she believes in the beauty of life. Finally, she is a strong woman, and Obama and the Dems just gambled with Hillary's 18 million voters. If McCain/Palin can just pull away 20 to 30% of Hillary's voters, it's game over.

Palin has energy experience, but to say she has "executive experience" is laughable. ESPECIALLY since experience is the central point of the Republican campaign against Obama. I think you really need to take your pick here... is experience important or not? You've got to pick a stance and support it, without trying to invent reasons why experience is a critical factor for our guy and not yours.

You're right, McCain sorely needed someone who could pander to the Christian right more effectively. They're the Republican base, and it was amusing to watch McCain bumble and flip-flop on issues until he finally started striking a chord with some of the more conservative voters. His "maverick" image is all but gone; you can't be a maverick when your party base wants things to remain exactly the way they are. His VP pick is going to have to deal with some touchy subjects before she'll be accepted by the "moral majority" though... that unmarried, pregnant daughter is already raising eyebrows. And of course, *I* don't think such a thing is a very big deal... but then again, I don't base my votes on things like "family values" :)

Just look at the map in the link I posted. McCain just needs to win 2 out of OH, PA, and MI and he's a shoe in. Even if McCain only wins one of those three, he is still very hard to beat. Personally, I think he will win OH and MI. And that is how you win in politics!

Your link is gone. However, I can post this one:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... in/?map=10

Michigan is polling 4% in favor of Obama, and Pennsylvania is polling 5% Obama. Ohio is closer, and will probably tip to McCain.

Virginia's going to be an interesting state to watch. We have a Democratic governor and we put a strong Democrat into the Senate in 2006. The wealthy counties around DC are all strongly (60-80% or more) Democratic, while the rural areas in the south and west parts of the state vote Republican (with small pockets of Democratic voters around the major universities). However, VA has gone from an 8 point Bush lead in 2004 to a dead heat in 2008. Virginia is still on the GOP's list of "easy votes," but this might be the year we get a surprise.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:46 pm

Lathander wrote:If McCain/Palin can just pull away 20 to 30% of Hillary's voters, it's game over.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109957/Obama ... rters.aspx

Yeah, about that.

Also, for fun, Gallup has Obama by six: http://www.gallup.com/poll/109954/Gallu ... 49-43.aspx
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:09 pm

lol, so I would readily admit that I read perez hilton about three or four times a week. You can get some really interesting news on there...for example, that was the first place I found out about John 'douchebag' Edwards and his little affair...a couple months (?) before the story broke on mainstream media.

He's on the Palin stuff like flies on any number of unpleasant things. A couple of interesting things that I haven't seen in traditional media. One, teen Palin has several pictures of herself and friends boozing it up...hopefully pre-pregnancy, so maybe when she was 16? Two, the Palins pulled teen Palin from her high school 'for months now' citing a severe case of mono. So much for the pride they're trying to spin now. Three, there are serious doubts arising over the vetting process McCain used to pick Palin. It has been suggested that his vetting team was in Alaska one day before she was chosen and other news articles suggesting that few, if any, contacts in Alaska were talked to about the choice.

The vetting stuff matters because it just shows how panicky and desperate McCain really is. The brilliance of the move is that it was so wacky that the con-sheep are actually praising it as brilliant because they don't know what the eff else to say. In the words of Diddy, "If you really think that we gonna let you win this election wit these, these, like crazy decisions that yer makin, you buggin."

And the teen Palin stuff matters because cons actively and aggressively try to legislate morality. The anti-sex ed, anti-gay, pro-marriage, pro-family, pro-traditional-American-values party needs to step up to the plate. Kudos to the Obama camp for taking the high road on this train wreck...it should be obvious enough to most Americans without prodding.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:15 pm

Nice.

Republican pundits LOVED Sarah Palin right before the announcement. "She's only been a governor for a year and a half? That will not work." Classic.

As Kos said, these guys 180'd so fast, I wonder if they were treated for whiplash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTbsbeY5k5k
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Re: VP picks

Postby Botef » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:58 pm

Palin has a lot of obstacles ahead of her. In addition to her daughters pregnancy, "Trooper Gate" is just starting to get some attention and will probably turn some heads, there is her alleged membership in AIP, a group that has been suggesting Alaska should secede and become its own country. And to top it all of there is some suspicions surrounding her pregnancy with Trig, namely that she didn't announce she was pregnant - even to her internal staff - until 7 months in and a number of other unusual circumstances surrounding the birth.

I'd have to agree that McCain made a rather last minute decision that may or may not work in his favor. On the plus side and perhaps most important to note, he stole all of Obama's thunder the day after his big speech with the announcement. Nobody was talking about Obama on Friday. The entire media was in a frenzy over the Palin announcement and completely ignored Obama save for his 10 second response on McCain's VP pick.

I think even if Palin draws a lot of negative attention the fact of the matter is that the spotlight is now on McCain's campaign and probably will be for the remainder of the election. Even if a lot of the attention is negative the brunt of that weight is on Palin, the VP pick, not McCain. All McCain's campaign has to do is convince the public that the issues the media draws up for Palin are not important to politics. If the media sticks to the pregnancy and personal issues like they probably will, than it will be a smart play. If the media follows some of the other things through it could back fire.

That said I'm not a Palin fan. I would have much preferred to see someone experienced and deserving like Kay Hutchinson get the pick. I suppose Hutchinson's stance on abortion and ANWR didn't meet the needs of McCain's campaign though. Oh, and watching Hutchinson try and cough up her support for Palin after the announcement was just embarrassing.
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Re: VP picks

Postby drdactyl » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:01 pm

I stopped reading these posts halfway through, but I probably will go back and finish them. Here are fragments of thoughts.

I live in Alaska. Palin has an 80% approval rate as governor. Alaska is about 90% retarded.

Any of you who are saying that Palin has more executive experience than Obama in anything have never been to the town of Wasilla.

With all of those moral values and family bonds it's amazing that her seventeen year old daughter is pregnant out of wedlock. Way to go on the personal responsibility. Lets not consider abortion for that unprepared Alaskan mother.

ANWR - Palin wants to drill. McCain doesnt. WTF?

Lifelong NRA member.....the entire state of Alaska probably is. EVERYONE hunts. EVERYONE has a gun. Unless you live in Anchorage (the only city you could legitimately call a city) you have to worry about the possibility of wildlife affecting your property and pets. I know dog mushers who despise guns but own them anyway to protect their dogs from wolves.

Corruption - After near a decade of this past debacle is it intelligent to even consider someone who is remotely questionable when it comes to a corrupt politician? I mean....people are still voting for Ted Stevens (series of tubes, takes bribes from oil companies) - see first point (90% of Alaskans are retarded)
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:22 pm

drdactyl wrote:Corruption - After near a decade of this past debacle is it intelligent to even consider someone who is remotely questionable when it comes to a corrupt politician? I mean....people are still voting for Ted Stevens (series of tubes, takes bribes from oil companies) - see first point (90% of Alaskans are retarded)

Don't forget that Palin fervently supported the Bridge to Nowhere before she flip-flopped and started opposing it!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:53 pm

Yay polls!

Palinbump (for Obama)

Image

Clintonistas split (mostly for Obama)

Image
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Re: VP picks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:31 am

What's the rationale behind all this talk? For liberals to try and say why they hate Palin's selection as VP? Who gives a shit. If the conservative base was energized to vote because of her selection, then selecting her worked, as it appears to have. Don't feel "safe" with her as VP? Think we feel "safe" with the thought of Obama as President, with actual executive power? Dare to even compare? ...


As a brief aside: Please remember this thread once we know who won the Presidency. Just like I make it a point to ALWAYS remember what "meteorologists" "predicted" regarding hurricanes, their paths, their strength, etc., we should see how good these polls were at predicting what voters really did come election day. Let's see how close the two actually end up being in the elections, if at all, and compare it to the data from the polls. If anyone knows a good site with information about past presidential polls and their respective outcomes, let me know. I pass my judgment of movie critics, "meteorologists", and political "experts" over to the pollsters. Would like to see if I'm wrong and polled data is actually worth a shit.

And I don't say this in a sarcastic tone, honestly, I just want to know if paying attention to presidential polls in the news for the rest of my life can be something I can avoid doing and wasting memory on. If they are a very reliable source for predicting the winner, and have been statistically for years, that's what I want to know. Otherwise, waste of synapses.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:45 am

Oh, some of you have a lack of experience wit politics. After a convention, there is normally a bump in the polls. Obama is only up 5 when he should be up 10 to 15. It is a fairly weak bump for Obama.

As to the Clinton voters, I said McCain would get 20 to 30 percent. Those poll numbers for her supporters roughly support that contention.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:53 am

Kifle maybe you are too dopey to understand what you are writing. When you write about clams and such, you are being sexist toward women. It is the usual double standard that liberals have. I don't have to put words in your mouth, you do a good enough job of putting your foot there. Even your comment about "sucking dick" is an oblique attack on women.

In regard to the bad father comment, I don't see anyone bashing Biden over the legal trouble his son has had. Not the one that is going to Iraq that he is proud of, I'm talking about the second oldest, look it up. If that was Palin, you would be throwing a fit that she's a bad mother as you are with her 17 year old. It's the usual thing that women in politics have to deal with. I continue to state you are a sexist.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:54 am

Here's another funny story about Obama claiming more experience than Palin. I guess interviewing for a job counts as experience now...


Barack Obama contends that he is more experienced in executive matters than Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin because he has managed his presidential campaign for the past 18 months.

Speaking on a cable news channel Monday night, the Democratic presidential nominee said he is better prepared to handle a disaster like Hurricane Gustav because of his pursuit of the White House.

“Well, my understanding is that Governor Palin’s town of Wasilla has, I think, 50 employees. We’ve got 2,500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe $12 million a year. You know, we have a budget of about three times that just for the month. So I think that our ability to manage large systems and to execute I think has been made clear over the last couple of years,” Obama said.

John McCain’s spokesman called the suggestion “laughable.”

“For Barack Obama to argue that he’s experienced enough to be president because he’s running for president is desperate circular logic and its laughable. It is a testament to Barack Obama’s inexperience and failing qualifications that he would stoop to passing off his candidacy as comparable to Governor Sarah Palin’s executive experience managing a budget of over $10 billion and more than 24,000 employees,” said spokesman Tucker Bounds.

Republican National Committee Victory 2008 Chairwoman Carly Fiorina also blasted the Democratic campaign.

“I am appalled by the Obama campaign’s attempts to belittle Governor Sarah Palin’s experience. The facts are that Sarah Palin has made more executive decisions as a mayor and governor than Barack Obama has made in his life,” Fiorina said, adding that the Obama camp’s attacks raise the question of sexism.

“Because of Hillary Clinton’s historic run for the presidency and the treatment she received, American women are more highly tuned than ever to recognize and decry sexism in all its forms. They will not tolerate sexist treatment of Governor Palin,” she said.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:12 am

Lathander wrote:Oh, some of you have a lack of experience wit politics. After a convention, there is normally a bump in the polls. Obama is only up 5 when he should be up 10 to 15. It is a fairly weak bump for Obama.

As to the Clinton voters, I said McCain would get 20 to 30 percent. Those poll numbers for her supporters roughly support that contention.


1) The historical average post-convention bounce is +5.9%. There hasn't been a double-digit bounce for 16 years (and the last one before that was in 1980)

2) 12% != 20-30%
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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:19 am

Xis,

Maybe I'm reading those bars wrong, but the certain and uncertain McCain look to be just under 20. Throw in some of those undecided and you're just about 20. And that's before the masterful speech by Lieberman tonight. I wonder if Lieberman is going to get Defense or State?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:48 am

Lathander wrote:If that was Palin, you would be throwing a fit that she's a bad mother as you are with her 17 year old.


I am? Where?

Oh, and you're now the second conservative to validate my earlier prophecy. Thanks!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:52 am

Lathander wrote:“I am appalled by the Obama campaign’s attempts to belittle Governor Sarah Palin’s experience. The facts are that Sarah Palin has made more executive decisions as a mayor and governor than Barack Obama has made in his life,” Fiorina said, adding that the Obama camp’s attacks raise the question of sexism.

“Because of Hillary Clinton’s historic run for the presidency and the treatment she received, American women are more highly tuned than ever to recognize and decry sexism in all its forms. They will not tolerate sexist treatment of Governor Palin,” she said.


Ooh and another! Remember, Republicans are Progressive! They'd never be sexist, they'd certainly never have just found a black guy to run against Clinton if she'd won!

Just remember, any criticism of the experience of a candidate is sexist. Well, if they're a woman that is. It is, of course, NOT sexist to question Obama's experience because he's a guy.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:00 am

Image

I think my favorite part is the drive-thru.

And yes, I completely believe that Obama has earned more "executive experience" managing his campaign than Sarah Palin did running this one-horse town.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:16 am

Lathander wrote:Kifle maybe you are too dopey to understand what you are writing. When you write about clams and such, you are being sexist toward women. It is the usual double standard that liberals have. I don't have to put words in your mouth, you do a good enough job of putting your foot there. Even your comment about "sucking dick" is an oblique attack on women.

In regard to the bad father comment, I don't see anyone bashing Biden over the legal trouble his son has had. Not the one that is going to Iraq that he is proud of, I'm talking about the second oldest, look it up. If that was Palin, you would be throwing a fit that she's a bad mother as you are with her 17 year old. It's the usual thing that women in politics have to deal with. I continue to state you are a sexist.


Seriously, this is like arguing with a 10yr old that refuses to admit he made a few bad comments that had no grounding in the actual issue. When I write about clams and such, it's because it's funny vernacular, not because it's sexist. Notice I also used sausage in place of penis. Does that mean I'm sexist against guys as well? Convenient you left that out I suppose. Also, the comment about "sucking dick" was an oblique attack at ass-kissers that pander for promotions -- e.g. sucking dick to the top. If you knew me, you'd be aware I use that term for men as well; i.e. Lol, dude, who's dick did you suck to get that sweet phone, yo? or, I had to suck a lot of dick to get this independant study. Again, funny vernacular. I try to write how I speak on forums -- not attempt to come off as some learned douche-nozzle -- regardless of whether I have the ability to or not.

Again, if anyone here is sexist it would be you over the father comment. I was making a statement that was misconstrued (still not sure how as I think it's plainly obvious), and you made an overtly direct statement and restate it in this post concerning fathers. You clearly are an overly-apologetic lady lover -- sort of like a femanist with a miniature cyclops (oh no, I'm sexist against guys now because I didn't say penis). Is that how you get numbers in bars or something? "Yeah, that guy was like, way out of line. He should be staring at your beautiful eyes and not your breasts -- sheesh, what a sexist pig!" Get a clue. I left a few in this post -- maybe you can sniff them out, McGruff?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:18 am

Sarvis wrote:
Lathander wrote:“I am appalled by the Obama campaign’s attempts to belittle Governor Sarah Palin’s experience. The facts are that Sarah Palin has made more executive decisions as a mayor and governor than Barack Obama has made in his life,” Fiorina said, adding that the Obama camp’s attacks raise the question of sexism.

“Because of Hillary Clinton’s historic run for the presidency and the treatment she received, American women are more highly tuned than ever to recognize and decry sexism in all its forms. They will not tolerate sexist treatment of Governor Palin,” she said.


Ooh and another! Remember, Republicans are Progressive! They'd never be sexist, they'd certainly never have just found a black guy to run against Clinton if she'd won!

Just remember, any criticism of the experience of a candidate is sexist. Well, if they're a woman that is. It is, of course, NOT sexist to question Obama's experience because he's a guy.


No, it would be racist. All conservatives that knock Obama's experience are racists now (probably were before-hand... ziing!)! Lathander is a racist because he ever questioned Obama. Why do you have to be racist, Lathander? How deplorable!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:16 pm

Ragorn wrote:Image

I think my favorite part is the drive-thru.

And yes, I completely believe that Obama has earned more "executive experience" managing his campaign than Sarah Palin did running this one-horse town.


This is disinegenuous. She is a GOVERNOR. I don't know of many politicians that skipped the local politics bullshit to become Governor of their state. The only one that comes to mind right away is Arnold the governator. And if being governor of a small state was a disqualification for high office, then who the hell is Bill Clinton?
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:39 pm

From: 8 Reasons Sarah Palin is More Qualified than Barack Obama
Huffington Post

6. Foreign Affairs - While Obama likes to take Middle East tours, meet with Europe's leaders, and brag about his running mate being the foreign policy voice of the Senate, he can't hold a candle to Palenn's (sp?) understanding of today's complex, dangerous world. Yes, Sarah admitted that she hadn't paid much attention to the war in Iraq, but she knew enough to rightly call it a "task from God." Yes, she's only left North America once in her life, but her experience as a local sportscaster gave her the ability to follow events as they unfold at lightning speed. And as Cindy McCain pointed out, while Barack Obama was sipping lattes in Cambridge Square, Sarah Pinkston (sp?) was staring down the barrel of Putin's Kalashnikov -- a one woman wall keeping America safe from invasion.


Intrade gives Obama a 62% chance of winning the election and Palin a 10% chance of withdrawing as the VP candidate. Its a prediction model based on market forces so therefore right. Invisible hand ftw!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:35 pm

Corth wrote:This is disinegenuous. She is a GOVERNOR. I don't know of many politicians that skipped the local politics bullshit to become Governor of their state. The only one that comes to mind right away is Arnold the governator. And if being governor of a small state was a disqualification for high office, then who the hell is Bill Clinton?

This isn't a dig at her gubernatorial experience, it's a dig at the Republicans holding up her job as "mayor of Wasilla" as being relevant to the VP job.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:44 pm

You're forgetting her foreign relations experience Rags! She's geographically close to Russia, after all!

Hrm... by that logic I'm probably a master of foreign relations too, actually. I'm less than an hour away from Canada after all, and I was born in Florida so I've got "foreign relations experience" with TWO foreign countries!

(Florida is closer to MExico than Alaska is to Russia, after all.)
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:56 pm

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-tr ... _wash.html

Palin's failed, undelcared car wash business was dissolved by the state government for not paying licensing fees. If you're inclined, click the .pdf link... you can see the actual letter sent to Ms. Palin instructing her to pay the fees. The letter has the state seal and her own name at the top. I guarantee, it's full of win.

Experience!
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:10 pm

Wolf Blitzer, the CNN anchor, announced the news on Tuesday afternoon, saying, “A senior McCain adviser tells CNN the interview has been pulled because of a segment CNN ran last night during Campbell Brown’s ‘Election Central.’”

In that segment, Ms. Brown had sharply questioned Tucker Bounds, a campaign spokesman, after he said that the role of Mr. McCain’s running mate, Gov. Sarah Palin, as commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard was an example of executive experience that Senator Barack Obama of Illinois did not have.

“Can you tell me one decision that she made as commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard, just one?” Ms. Brown asked.

Mr. Bounds responded, “Any decision she has made as the commander of the National Guard that’s deployed overseas is more of a decision Barack Obama’s been making as he’s been running for president for the last two years.”

Ms. Brown pressed again, saying: “So tell me. Tell me. Give me an example of one of those decisions.”

To which Mr. Bounds said, “Campbell, certainly you don’t mean to belittle every experience, every judgment she makes as commander.” The argument devolved from there, with no real resolution.

Mr. Blitzer said, “CNN does not believe that exchange was over the line.”

It was just one of several arguments the campaign had with news organizations over various reports about Ms. Palin on Tuesday, including with ABC News and The New York Times.


and...

After the legislature passed a spending bill in April, Palin went through the measure reducing and eliminating funds for programs she opposed. Inking her initials on the legislation -- "SP" -- Palin reduced funding for Covenant House Alaska by more than 20 percent, cutting funds from $5 million to $3.9 million. Covenant House is a mix of programs and shelters for troubled youths, including Passage House, which is a transitional home for teenage mothers.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:24 pm

Lathander wrote:Xis,

Maybe I'm reading those bars wrong, but the certain and uncertain McCain look to be just under 20.


Sorry, I forgot to link the raw data.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109957/Obama ... rters.aspx

Tracking Hillary Clinton Voters

The Democratic convention appears to have increased certainty of support for Obama among Democratic voters, including in particular among the critical group of Democrats who earlier this year supported Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries (see graph above).

Much attention was given to the fact that only 47% of former Clinton supporters said they were certain to vote for Obama in the pre-convention USA Today/Gallup poll, and that 16% of these voters said they were going to vote for McCain, with another 14% undecided.

The new polling shows that many of these disaffected Clinton voters have now returned to the loyal Democratic fold. The percentage of former Clinton voters who say they are certain to vote for Obama has now jumped to 65%. Although 12% of former Clinton voters persist in saying that they are going to vote for McCain, that's down from 16%, and the percentage who are undecided has dropped in half.

Overall, support for Obama among this group has moved from 70% pre-convention to 81% post-convention.

To be sure, former Clinton supporters are still less enthusiastic than former Obama supporters in the post-convention poll. And, the fact that 12% still say they are going to vote for McCain is no doubt troubling to the Obama camp. But it appears that, from a broad perspective, the concentrated effort by Obama's campaign managers to feature both Hillary and Bill Clinton in prominent roles, and efforts by Hillary Clinton to emphasize her support for Obama going into the November election, may have paid off.

Finally, certainty to vote for Obama also moved up from 80% to 87% among voters who previously supported Obama in the Democratic primaries, further suggesting that the Democratic convention had the effect of solidifying party support for the Obama candidacy.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:07 pm

I just want to know if I should continue linking stories... McCain denouncing federal earmarking and including Palin on his list of offenders, Palin's budget cuts for the teen pregnancy center, Palin's statement that it's "God's will" for the United States to be at war with Iraq... I mean, where do I start?

And is anyone even defending her anymore?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:17 pm

Sexist.
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:22 pm

Her campaign might be flat broke, but it least it isn't flat busted.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:42 pm

She has nice boobs.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Disoputlip » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:20 pm

I am not american, but if I should vote for a vice president then the question about the VP have a pregnant daughter is one of the most important questions to answer to see if they can handle the VP post.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:42 pm

Ragorn wrote:I just want to know if I should continue linking stories... McCain denouncing federal earmarking and including Palin on his list of offenders, Palin's budget cuts for the teen pregnancy center, Palin's statement that it's "God's will" for the United States to be at war with Iraq... I mean, where do I start?

And is anyone even defending her anymore?


Dairy-gate is a pretty damning story.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Vaprak » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:07 pm

OK, this is totally politically incorrect, but I find it humerous:

Would you rather vote for a lawyer (Barack Obama) who is married to a lawyer (Michelle Obama)?

Or would you rather vote for a war hero who is married to a hot wife that owns a beer distributorship and has a hot VP?

I'm going with beer distributorship.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:14 pm

It just keeps getting worse. WTF is the GOP thinking? http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/29/1223/87119
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:28 pm

omg, you seriously think Cindy McCain is hot? Grrrrrross. Michelle Obama is actually really beautiful....in a natural, charismatic way. That Cindy thing looks like her Real Doll "as-is shelf" tag might poke out of her dress at any moment. Lars and the Real Girl anyone??
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:31 pm

Vaprak wrote:OK, this is totally politically incorrect, but I find it humerous:

Would you rather vote for a lawyer (Barack Obama) who is married to a lawyer (Michelle Obama)?

Or would you rather vote for a war hero who is married to a hot wife that owns a beer distributorship and has a hot VP?

I'm going with beer distributorship.


It's not like you're gettin' any. :P
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